Character Development in The Last Jedi?

I wanted to open a thread to address the topic of character development in TLJ with a particular emphasis on the role Luke Skywalker will play in Rey and Kylo’s dynamic. I feel as though there is a sentiment of late—one I’ve also fallen into, mind you—that involves downgrading Luke’s role in TLJ because we just can’t reconcile the two different movies LF seems to be selling (TLJ with “beating heart” Rey and Luke and TLJ with “two sides of the protagonist” Rey and Kylo). A new line of thinking has even emerged after the trailer that Luke will simply be used as a plot-device to fuel Rey’s abandonment issues and turn her toward Kylo, and the more I think about it the more I’m sure this is not going to be the case, that it’s another red-herring the trailer wants us to believe when in reality something quite different is going to occur.

We’ve been told that Rey and Luke’s relationship will serve as the “beating heart” of this film. Rian said that Rey will be the one to “redeem” Luke in some manner. Daisy said that Rey will be disappointed by Luke, but that she’ll also go on an emotional journey with him and find a place alongside him. I think all of this information is hugely relevant and tends to be discounted because it’s so confusing. It’s confusing to me, too. So my question is, how do we reconcile two descriptions for this film that seem to contradict each other? Are we all looking at this from the wrong perspective in not including Luke in Rey and Kylo’s dynamic?

Below I’ll try to formulate my thoughts and outline the most likely and logical Point A to Point B character struggles for our protagonists—Finn, Rey, Kylo and Luke. I've done my best to outline the major struggles our key players are likely to face in TLJ based TFA, official statements and trailers.

FINN

Point A
Finn wakes up from his coma to discover that Rey has run off without him. Despite the First Order preparing to launch a new assault after losing Starkiller Base (and potentially destroying D’Quar), all Finn wants to do is go off and reunite with Rey. He’s forced back into reality by Rose, a Resistance maintenance worker, who convinces Finn that the Resistance needs him. He is likely unsure at first, but further encouragement from Rose, Leia, Poe, Maz Kanata and the rest of the Resistance brings Finn to accept a mission alongside Rose to track down a hacker in the casino city Canto Bight and later to infiltrate the First Order’s command ship, the Supremacy.

Development
Finn’s story arc will surround accepting his role as a “Big Deal” in the Resistance while coming to terms with his past by facing off with the trooper program and his old boss Captain Phasma. Plucky, cranky Resistance maintenance worker Rose will accompany him and together they will go from insecure and unsure fighters to true heroes of the Resistance.

Point A to Point B
Insecure coward who feels he does not deserve to be called a hero to a true "Big Deal".

REY

Point A
Rey has used the completed map to find Luke Skywalker on Ahch-To. As per Maz and Leia, she believes her place must be to help bring Luke back into the fight, but she is also harbouring a goal of her own in seeking out a master to help her understand her newfound connection to the Force. She is deeply disappointed to find that the Jedi hero she idealized has fallen from grace. Not only does he have no interest in teaching her, he wants her gone from Ahch-To. When she somehow does manage to convince him to help her she is further distraught by Luke's reveal that her overwhelmingly powerful Force abilities remind him of his nephew and former apprentice, Kylo Ren, the dark sider with whom she recently clashed. This discovery fuels Rey's already burning hatred of Kylo--not only did he take away her recently discovered father figure and leave her only friend in a coma, he has quickly become the reason her potential new teacher is afraid of her too.

Development
Rey’s arc will surround helping to rescue Luke from his own sentiments of inferiority, fear and cynicism and come to terms with the mysterious and confusing connection she shares with Kylo Ren. Her perspectives toward both Luke and Kylo will be redefined when she learns about their history. Ultimately she will develop compassion for their tragic state and strive to bring a shattered family back together.

Point A to Point B
Lost, confused girl who just wants to belong to overwhelmingly powerful young woman who takes charge in an attempt to find her own place.

KYLO

Point A
Kylo suffered a humiliating defeat at Rey's hands and is off to face his master. Snoke's displeasure with the outcome of the battle on Starkiller Base only serves to fuel Kylo's rage at both Rey and the Resistance, encouraging him to prove himself further as a dark sider. He smashes the mask he has used to conceal his identity for years, desperate to let go of his insecurities once and for all, and returns to the fight, more determined than ever.

Development
Kylo’s arc will surround letting go of his past. He will slip into a shell of reaction formation following the murder of his father and will continue to pursue his path of darkness, but will persist to be torn apart emotionally as he questions himself and fights with his desire to abandon that path once and for all. He’ll be faced with the tasks of attacking his mother’s ship and finding his uncle on Ahch-To, where his story will once more collide with Rey’s. Still bent on proving himself he will likely attempt to kill her, but whatever happens between them will instead serve as yet another obstacle that encourages him to face his innumerable mistakes. He will enact a heel-face-turn during the story’s climax and will turn on his former master, realizing that he no longer wants or needs whatever Snoke has been providing in his life. Finally beginning to reach toward a place where he will be able to rediscover himself, he will once again offer himself to Rey.

Point A to Point B:
Angry, vengeful, self-hating anti-villain to tragic, self-accepting anti-hero.

LUKE

Point A
Luke has spent 6 years hiding away on Ahch-To, barely tolerated by the female caretakers who look after the sacred place. He will suddenly be confronted by a stranger who confirms that his best friend is dead and begs him to come back to the fight. Haunted by his past mistakes and the fate of his nephew, Ben Solo, he has fallen to a state where he believes he should die the last true Jedi in the galaxy.

Development
Luke’s arc will surround being suddenly confronted by a new student whose intense, raw power reminds him of Ben Solo’s. He will be terrified of Rey at first, certain that history will only repeat itself if he lends her his aid and helps her to hone her Force abilities. However, through Rey’s guidance and connection to Kylo, Luke will eventually realize that this girl is not a lost cause. And if she isn’t, maybe Ben wasn’t either. He will confront both Kylo and his past, and Rey will serve as the catalyst that gives Luke a new insight into his nephew’s powers, emotional state and destiny. He will re-emerge as a confident teacher and will strive to make this right by returning to his sister’s side and attempting to help his nephew.

Point A to Point B
Disenfranchised, failed teacher to mature, optimistic master.

Take note that this is based on current information and does not rely on heavy plot spoilers. Character dynamics are surprisingly simple, but generally tell you a lot about where a narrative is going.

I'd have to organize my thoughts on this more to say something insightful, but ruminating on how our thinking quickly goes to Luke being a plot device in Rey and Kylo's development, I wonder if it won't end up going in the reverse either instead or too. If Luke is disenchanted, doesn't believe he can save his nephew, doesn't believe in the power of the light anymore, than Rey forgiving and helping Kylo to redeem himself could serve a dual purpose of reminding Luke of his old values.

Perhaps it can even be a point in which Luke and Rey connect in a way they couldn't before; a shared experience that helps Rey to understand Luke and reminds Luke of what he used to stand for. Especially since both (if predictions about Rey being skeptical of Luke's teachings and Luke wanting Rey to kill Kylo are real) had the experience of coming into this rich world of Force users as newbies, and defying what they were told and finding their own, unique way forward. Rey's relationship with Kylo would be a reminder to Luke that there is always a way forward and enrich that relationship between them.

Though if that's the development, I imagine that would only fully come together in IX.

Honestly, I'm more interested in how they plan to develop Luke and Kylo's relationship going forward. That's still majorly up in the air, especially since, based on things like Adam turning down dinner with Mark, it doesn't seem as if the two approach reconciliation in TLJ. I wonder if that dynamic is going to be focused on in a significant way during this trilogy, and how they could pull that off without sidelining Rey. Because that is a lot of baggage and a lot of history that could easily outshine other elements of the story.

Are we sure that Rian actually said that Rey "redeems" Luke? Or is that something Breznican wrote in EW?

SoloSideCousin wrote:Are we sure that Rian actually said that Rey "redeems" Luke? Or is that something Breznican wrote in EW?

@SoloSideCousin
I checked the article again and I think it was Breznican's takeaway from his interactions with Rian and the cast (apologizes, I remembered wrong), but I think my point still stands. I really doubt Luke is just going to abandon Rey, serve as a plot-device and fail to develop. Point A to Point B leads us in a pretty different direction, don't you think?

@ZioRen
All great points, but again, how do we reconcile that with Rian's thinking that Rey and Luke's dynamic will be the "beating heart" of TLJ? Doesn't it have to go beyond Luke watching as his two apprentices find a way together? I would think Luke's character development would lead him to be involved in some way, even if he isn't quite ready by TLJ's conclusion. Ultimately he'll have to reach that point. That, and this is the film addressing Luke directly in the title, so one would assume it focuses a great deal on his development, no?

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:Are we sure that Rian actually said that Rey "redeems" Luke? Or is that something Breznican wrote in EW?

@SoloSideCousin
I checked the article again and I think it was Breznican's takeaway from his interactions with Rian and the cast (apologizes, I remembered wrong), but I think my point still stands. I really doubt Luke is just going to abandon Rey, serve as a plot-device and fail to develop. Point A to Point B leads us in a pretty different direction, don't you think?

@FrolickingFizzgig

Yeah, I don't know if I agree with your Point A to Point B on Luke. I know that there is a chance that this might happen, but I actually kind of hate the idea that Luke is just kinda of depressed, but in the end in the same awesome Luke, when the production has been sending out so many signals that the dude has changed more significantly than that. I also honestly hate the idea that Rey is there to pull Luke together in some way. I just find that route to be Lifetime movie predictable, counterproductive to Rey and Kylo taking the lead in the series, and just one more piece of evidence of how wonderful Luke is, when we already know how great he is. I personally think that some form of Antagonist!Luke would be a much more compelling story and would allow Rey and Kylo to take a very active role in dealing with him and whatever other obstacles that they would have to face. The marketing for Luke indicates in my mind that Luke has bigger problems than being a disenfranchised, failed teacher and could very well become an antagonist. So I think we will be on different sides of this for the time being.

That said, regardless of what they do with Luke, I doubt that Luke will die as Rey and Kylo's antagonist at the end of the trilogy. Luke may go on a hellish journey, but will still come out enlightened at the very end. But IMO, they should largely let Luke pull himself together. Let circumstances affect him in the same way circumstances are going to affect Kylo and change him. Rey and Kylo have a lot of growing to do on their own without being saddled with Luke in any kind of significant way IMO.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:Are we sure that Rian actually said that Rey "redeems" Luke? Or is that something Breznican wrote in EW?

@SoloSideCousin
I checked the article again and I think it was Breznican's takeaway from his interactions with Rian and the cast (apologizes, I remembered wrong), but I think my point still stands. I really doubt Luke is just going to abandon Rey, serve as a plot-device and fail to develop. Point A to Point B leads us in a pretty different direction, don't you think?

@FrolickingFizzgig

Yeah, I don't know if I agree with your Point A to Point B on Luke. I know that there is a chance that this might happen, but I actually kind of hate the idea that Luke is just kinda of depressed, but in the end in the same awesome Luke, when the production has been sending out so many signals that the dude has changed more significantly than that.  I also honestly hate the idea that Rey is there to pull Luke together in some way.  I just find that route to be Lifetime movie predictable, counterproductive to Rey and Kylo taking the lead in the series, and just one more piece of evidence of how wonderful Luke is, when we already know how great he is.  I personally think that some form of Antagonist!Luke would be a much more compelling story and would allow Rey and Kylo to take a very active role in dealing with him and whatever other obstacles that they would have to face.  The marketing for Luke indicates in my mind that Luke has bigger problems than being a disenfranchised, failed teacher and could very well become an antagonist.  So I think we will be on different sides of this for the time being.

That said, regardless of what they do with Luke, I doubt that Luke will die as Rey and Kylo's antagonist at the end of the trilogy.  Luke may go on a hellish journey, but will still come out enlightened at the very end.  But IMO, they should largely let Luke pull himself together.  Let circumstances affect him in the same way circumstances are going to affect Kylo and change him.  Rey and Kylo have a lot of growing to do on their own without being saddled with Luke in any kind of significant way IMO.

@SoloSideCousin
Agree to disagree for the time being, then. I think this is a simple, satisfying (to me) way of developing Luke while simultaneously humanizing Kylo. I'm definitely not against any dark Luke scenario because it would certainly involve Rey and Kylo remaining together for much of IX in order to help him, but I don't currently see it going in that direction. It could, though. No complaint from me if they do (though if it does go there I hope the whole story doesn't become centralized on evil Luke).

It's also possible I'm reading too much into Rian's words and he was just trying to appease the fanboys, lol. Rian calling Rey and Luke the "beating heart" just seems to speak as such a positive thing (ultimately), not a negative one.

It doesn't necessarily have to be a "dark Luke" scenario for Luke to be Rey's (and Kylo's) antagonist. We've talked before about how if Snoke and Luke are meant to represent two extremes, perhaps Luke has become a fanatical "lightsider" in some way?

I'm a huge fan of the theory that Luke is perhaps so freaked out by Rey's power that he doesn't want to let her leave Ahch-To because he feels that she's too much of a danger to the galaxy. It's an easy way to turn Luke into an antagonist without making him into a "villain".

Regarding Rey, I'm not really sure how well overwhelmingly powerful young woman who takes charge in an attempt to find her own place and strive to bring a shattered family back together mesh together. I mean, I can't really see where Rey herself is in all of this if she's basically out to fix other people's issues and families.

I'm skeptical about "Rey will redeem Luke" because it's a waste of time for her character's arc. She needs to get away from the patriarchal figure in order to grow up

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:Are we sure that Rian actually said that Rey "redeems" Luke? Or is that something Breznican wrote in EW?

@SoloSideCousin
I checked the article again and I think it was Breznican's takeaway from his interactions with Rian and the cast (apologizes, I remembered wrong), but I think my point still stands. I really doubt Luke is just going to abandon Rey, serve as a plot-device and fail to develop. Point A to Point B leads us in a pretty different direction, don't you think?

@FrolickingFizzgig

Yeah, I don't know if I agree with your Point A to Point B on Luke. I know that there is a chance that this might happen, but I actually kind of hate the idea that Luke is just kinda of depressed, but in the end in the same awesome Luke, when the production has been sending out so many signals that the dude has changed more significantly than that.  I also honestly hate the idea that Rey is there to pull Luke together in some way.  I just find that route to be Lifetime movie predictable, counterproductive to Rey and Kylo taking the lead in the series, and just one more piece of evidence of how wonderful Luke is, when we already know how great he is.  I personally think that some form of Antagonist!Luke would be a much more compelling story and would allow Rey and Kylo to take a very active role in dealing with him and whatever other obstacles that they would have to face.  The marketing for Luke indicates in my mind that Luke has bigger problems than being a disenfranchised, failed teacher and could very well become an antagonist.  So I think we will be on different sides of this for the time being.

That said, regardless of what they do with Luke, I doubt that Luke will die as Rey and Kylo's antagonist at the end of the trilogy.  Luke may go on a hellish journey, but will still come out enlightened at the very end.  But IMO, they should largely let Luke pull himself together.  Let circumstances affect him in the same way circumstances are going to affect Kylo and change him.  Rey and Kylo have a lot of growing to do on their own without being saddled with Luke in any kind of significant way IMO.

@SoloSideCousin
Agree to disagree for the time being, then. I think this is a simple, satisfying (to me) way of developing Luke while simultaneously humanizing Kylo. I'm definitely not against any dark Luke scenario because it would certainly involve Rey and Kylo remaining together for much of IX in order to help him, but I don't currently see it going in that direction. It could, though. No complaint from me if they do (though if it does go there I hope the whole story doesn't become centralized on evil Luke).

It's also possible I'm reading too much into Rian's words and he was just trying to appease the fanboys, lol. Rian calling Rey and Luke the "beating heart" just seems to speak as such a positive thing (ultimately), not a negative one.

@FrolickingFizzgig

Iam not against dark Luke scenario either. But I hope that it wouldn't because I fear that the story would indeed centralize on Luke, which would be surprising IMO. I don't know to what extent the fact that the ST are Disney movies influence their plot. But I personally don't remember any Disney movie whose major stake was to save a father figure, at least not as a centralized plot. I.e. Belle rescues her father at some point but the major stake of the movie is to save Beast from the curse. And in most Disney movie, the major stake is the following: a Prince(ss) must save his/her potential lover from the villain's grip. In most Disney movies, there is also lowest point where the villain achieves his evil plan and you think everything is lost. Since TLJ is the second movie of the ST, we can expect that the lowest point of the ST will happen by the end of the movie. Sure, Luke going to the DS would be shocking but that would be a little repetitive because:
- He would be the third Skywalker falling to the DS after Anakin and Kylo and people already complain about the Skywalker's inclination for the DS
- The major stake in Episode 9 would kinda be the same as in ROTJ with a father figure as the antagonist to be saved from the DS and 2 "child" figures as the heros coming to the rescue, which indeed moves the central dynamic from Rey/Kylo to potentially Luke/Kylo and/or Luke/Rey.

Plus, if I was Snoke, I would personally prefer not having Kylo and Rey teaming up because given their youth and their combined raw power, they seem far more dangerous for him than a potential Rey/Luke or Kylo/Luke team. So if I would be Snoke, I would make sure that these two disparate pieces don't come together by the end of TLJ, no matter how their relationship has evolved during the movie.

So I see the hints of Dark Luke but I remain kinda skeptical about the idea that Luke would end TLJ like this. Daisy said that Rey could find out that her origins could fit well with the remnants of Luke Skywalker and @spacebaby45678 assumed that it could refer to her Kenobi lineage. She also said something like "working together they could become whole again", which makes me think that Luke and Rey are meant to team up at some point of the ST. Obviously, they won't work well together in TLJ so why not in Episode 9?

Saracene wrote:Regarding Rey, I'm not really sure how well overwhelmingly powerful young woman who takes charge in an attempt to find her own place and strive to bring a shattered family back together mesh together. I mean, I can't really see where Rey herself is in all of this if she's basically out to fix other people's issues and families.

@Saracene
I'm just trying to reconcile how she'll feel toward Luke by the end of this movie if their dynamic is indeed supposed to be the "beating heart". I'm also imagining that she'll learn something terrible about her own past while simultaneously growing more attached to Luke (and possibly feeling a connection to Kylo). I'm struggling to imagine what else would bring her to care enough for their family, as we know quite well she has no literal blood relation to them. Overall I should say that I think Rey's arc will surround getting to that place where she's totally willing to let go of the past.

@Maria Antonietta
Then why is her relationship with Luke being called the "beating heart" of the film? She can't just drop the patriarchy and still have a profound relationship with Luke? Doesn't there have to be more here than that, despite what any of us individually *wants* for this film. I'm really trying to encourage outside-the-box thinking here because I feel it's something that has been nagging at the backs of our minds for a while now.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

Saracene wrote:Regarding Rey, I'm not really sure how well overwhelmingly powerful young woman who takes charge in an attempt to find her own place and strive to bring a shattered family back together mesh together. I mean, I can't really see where Rey herself is in all of this if she's basically out to fix other people's issues and families.

@Saracene
I'm just trying to reconcile how she'll feel toward Luke by the end of this movie if their dynamic is indeed supposed to be the "beating heart". I'm also imagining that she'll learn something terrible about her own past while simultaneously growing more attached to Luke (and possibly feeling a connection to Kylo). I'm struggling to imagine what else would bring her to care enough for their family, as we know quite well she has no literal blood relation to them. Overall I should say that I think Rey's arc will surround getting to that place where she's totally willing to let go of the past.

@Maria Antonietta
Then why is her relationship with Luke being called the "beating heart" of the film? She can't just drop the patriarchy and still have a profound relationship with Luke? Doesn't there have to be more here than that, despite what any of us individually *wants* for this film. I'm really trying to encourage outside-the-box thinking here because I feel it's something that has been nagging at the backs of our minds for a while now.

@FrolickingFizzgig

I think that you raise a good point there. Why would Luke be so important in her heroin's journey, aside from pushing her unwillingly in Kylo's arms? That's what I have difficulty to figure out since she is not blood-related to the Skywalker and Luke can't be her love interest.

I personally don't see how TLJ ending up with Dark Luke would bring some big emotional turning point in her heroin journey unless Luke is supposed to have killed her parents or be responsible for some reason. Where I am also skeptical about Dark Luke is that people seem to think that having Dark Luke would kinda solve the question of Kylo's redemption. IMO, that doesn't solve the problem because in the end we can't have Luke dying unredeemed by the end of the trilogy.

And then, who is supposed to bring him back to the light side?  Leia would be the key but the ST ain't about Leia. Ben could be an option because he was a little like his son but then Rey could be sort of casted away. As for Rey herself, she may be related iin some way to Obi-Wan but I doubt that it would be a strong reason to go after him and for Luke to come back for Obi-Wan's granddaughter.

We've spent so much time on this forum stressing that Reywalker wouldn't make sense because there was no point in having Kylo coming back to the light for a sister or a cousin. IMO the same applies in a Dark Luke scenario: why would Luke come back for his sister, his nephew or for his mentor's granddaughter?  And the same reasoning applies in a case where Rey turns to the DS: which role would play Luke in her redemption? Maybe he would help redeem Obi-Wan's granddaughter (?) in return for what Obi-Wan did for the Skywalker? This is a possible possible scenario  but personally not my ideal one TBH.

So my feeling is that Luke and Rey will maybe share at some point of the ST the same kind of relationship as Obi-Wan and Luke because Obi-Wan was more than a teacher to him. Let's suppose that Kylo is the one who will go down for some reason by the end of TLJ, Rey would most certainly need guidance and Luke would be the only one who can do this. Maybe that this time, Luke would accept to guide her because he finally understands that Obi-Wan's granddaughter (?) is the only hope to bring his nephew back. And thus maybe they would indeed work together and become whole again by reforming the duo Skywalker/Kenobi. And thus, Rey could both bring Luke back to action as  the hero he was (The galaxy may need a myth) and redeem the Skywalker heir in the end, which would fit well Obi-Wan's original role in the OT and thus with the remnants of Luke Skywalker. Personally, one of the key question that I ask myself about TLJ Luke : where is the ROTJ Luke who was ready to go after his father and save him no matter how bad Vader was? Why does Luke seem so resigned in Kylo's fate that he doesn't want to fight for him?

In any case, I don't think that the ST will end up with Luke, Kylo and Rey as a disparate piece of a broken family. I believe that Luke will reconcile with Ben and have a good relationship with Rey in the end.

By the way, here a nice video of Daisy about Rey getting married

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

Saracene wrote:Regarding Rey, I'm not really sure how well overwhelmingly powerful young woman who takes charge in an attempt to find her own place and strive to bring a shattered family back together mesh together. I mean, I can't really see where Rey herself is in all of this if she's basically out to fix other people's issues and families.

@Saracene
I'm just trying to reconcile how she'll feel toward Luke by the end of this movie if their dynamic is indeed supposed to be the "beating heart". I'm also imagining that she'll learn something terrible about her own past while simultaneously growing more attached to Luke (and possibly feeling a connection to Kylo). I'm struggling to imagine what else would bring her to care enough for their family, as we know quite well she has no literal blood relation to them. Overall I should say that I think Rey's arc will surround getting to that place where she's totally willing to let go of the past.

@Maria Antonietta
Then why is her relationship with Luke being called the "beating heart" of the film? She can't just drop the patriarchy and still have a profound relationship with Luke? Doesn't there have to be more here than that, despite what any of us individually *wants* for this film. I'm really trying to encourage outside-the-box thinking here because I feel it's something that has been nagging at the backs of our minds for a while now.

@FrolickingFizzgig

I think that there might be a situation of competing marketing signals here. We have all kinds of visual indicators, canon book indicators, and now some actual performance (MH) indicators that Luke has a problem. Now how far they take that problem, that's still yet to be seen, and that's where speculation comes in.

OTOH, we have Rian calling Luke and Rey the "beating heart" of the movie. So what does that mean? It could mean Luke and Rey are going to save each other somehow. But given how the visuals and trailer indicate that the mutual support will come from the Rey and Kylo relationship, it's reasonable to think that "beating heart" may not have such a simple meaning.

It's quite arguable that Kylo and Rey were the beating heart of TFA, even though they were antagonistic to each other. It's also arguable that "beating heart" refers to a spiritual issue. Luke may represent one viewpoint of force usage while Rey (and her other half, Kylo) another viewpoint, and through them the right answer must be teased out, with Rey probably acting as the prime mediator as her journey is likely to elicit the most unbiased truth on this question.

There is also the issue of Rian saying that Rey and Luke's relationship will not play out like Luke/Yoda, along with indicators that Kylo will serve as a teacher. There is also the issue of MH saying that he will have a reduced role and the concern of Luke taking over everything that has been expressed by the production, both which arguably undercut both the great master Luke and the uber-dark Luke theories (which I don't think anyone here advocates for), because each would make Luke too important.

So I think that this is not just a case of people just saying what they want. There are disparate pieces of evidence all over the place from which people can formulate a variety of arguments.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

Saracene wrote:Regarding Rey, I'm not really sure how well overwhelmingly powerful young woman who takes charge in an attempt to find her own place and strive to bring a shattered family back together mesh together. I mean, I can't really see where Rey herself is in all of this if she's basically out to fix other people's issues and families.

@Saracene
I'm just trying to reconcile how she'll feel toward Luke by the end of this movie if their dynamic is indeed supposed to be the "beating heart". I'm also imagining that she'll learn something terrible about her own past while simultaneously growing more attached to Luke (and possibly feeling a connection to Kylo). I'm struggling to imagine what else would bring her to care enough for their family, as we know quite well she has no literal blood relation to them. Overall I should say that I think Rey's arc will surround getting to that place where she's totally willing to let go of the past.

@Maria Antonietta
Then why is her relationship with Luke being called the "beating heart" of the film? She can't just drop the patriarchy and still have a profound relationship with Luke? Doesn't there have to be more here than that, despite what any of us individually *wants* for this film. I'm really trying to encourage outside-the-box thinking here because I feel it's something that has been nagging at the backs of our minds for a while now.

@FrolickingFizzgig

I think that there might be a situation of competing marketing signals here. We have all kinds of visual indicators, canon book indicators, and now some actual performance (MH) indicators that Luke has a problem. Now how far they take that problem, that's still yet to be seen, and that's where speculation comes in.

OTOH, we have Rian calling Luke and Rey the "beating heart" of the movie. So what does that mean? It could mean Luke and Rey are going to save each other somehow. But given how the visuals and trailer indicate that the mutual support will come from the Rey and Kylo relationship, it's reasonable to think that "beating heart" may not have such a simple meaning.

It's quite arguable that Kylo and Rey were the beating heart of TFA, even though they were antagonistic to each other. It's also arguable that "beating heart" refers to a spiritual issue. Luke may represent one viewpoint of force usage while Rey (and her other half, Kylo) another viewpoint, and through them the right answer must be teased out, with Rey probably acting as the prime mediator as her journey is likely to elicit the most unbiased truth on this question.

There is also the issue of Rian saying that Rey and Luke's relationship will not play out like Luke/Yoda, along with indicators that Kylo will serve as a teacher. There is also the issue of MH saying that he will have a reduced role and the concern of Luke taking over everything that has been expressed by the production, both which arguably undercut both the great master Luke and the uber-dark Luke theories (which I don't think anyone here advocates for), because each would make Luke too important.

So I think that this is not just a case of people just saying what they want. There are disparate pieces of evidence all over the place from which people can formulate a variety of arguments.

@SoloSideCousin
Absolutely, you're quite right. There are disparate pieces of marketing evidence pointing in a variety of different directions. I guess I just took Rian's words more at face-value and assumed Rey and Luke's dynamic would ultimately end up being a positive one. And as for the differences between the Yoda/Luke dynamic and the Luke/Rey dynamic... well, Yoda's relationship with Luke really wasn't that positive. Yoda had this air of superiority and wisdom, while I think Luke will disappoint Rey in more human, down-to-earth ways. But then how does one reconcile that with Rey finding a path with Kylo?

It's extremely possible that they were going for one push in the marketing a few months ago and have since moved on to another one. I got the sense that a lot of fans were pretty apathetic toward Luke and Rey's relationship being highlighted as what many saw as more important than what it would end up being in the film. So it's less that Rian was lying and more that he was exaggerating at the request of LF/Kennedy in order to appease the fanboy mentality that Luke still needs to be uber important.

Would you mind summarizing more of your ideas for this dark/antagonist Luke scenario? I've always imagined that Luke would be an antagonistic and opposing force to Rey for much of TLJ, but would ultimately emerge a hero again, and I find this thinking that something else will happen to be intriguing from a story perspective. I guess I just have trouble seeing how an antagonistic Luke wouldn't totally overshadow Rey and Kylo's story. I would love to hear your thoughts on this matter!

I think the resistance to Ruke being central comes from the fact that selling the Rey-Kylo relationship to the audience ultimately requires a significant amount of meaningful interaction between them. Sure, Rey and Kylo could communicate entirely in dreams and develop a close relationship without even telling the audience, but obviously that's not not going to sell it to us.

The other reason it no doubt galls is that the "beating heart! BEATING HEART!! BEAAATIIIING HEAAARRRTT!!!" has been used as a stick to beat Reylos with since the day it was uttered. It's not even our "side" that's most reluctant to accept that more than one dynamic could be important in one film. For some people, it's been promised that TLJ is the Luke'n'Rey show, no room for anything else.

But ultimately, I suppose I do think one dynamic is going to be more important than the other. And the way things are set up, and the fact that this is supposed to be the new generation's story with apparently Kylo as a co-protagonist, it doesn't make much sense to me for it to be Luke and Rey. I always expected Luke's role to be akin to Han's in TFA, in terms of size and importance. I suppose you could even say that the scene between Han and Kylo was ultimately the "beating heart" of TFA.

I confess I find it hard to predict what exactly the dynamic between Rey and Luke is going to be, and I... find that exciting? Kind of? I'm not a believer in Evil!Luke. I'm not even really a believer in wrongheadedly antagonistic Luke, though I'm not saying it's not possible. I suspect Luke has good reasons for thinking as he does, doing what he does, and I suspect Rey and Kylo are something legitimately dangerous and scary. Not just "Rey, certified good person, has the potential in her to go dark (but she won't, don't worry) and Luke's heart finally melts when he realises how good she is". More like "nuclear scientist inadvertently creates the A-bomb and is determined to stop it at all costs".

I mean, I would find it interesting if it were basically Luke as Galen and Rey and Kylo as the Death Star. That would really challenge the audience - whose side are we meant to be on, anyway?

I think, ultimately, the themes of hope, love and compassion have to be relevant to Luke and Rey as well. I'm guessing that Rey will bring some hope to Luke, because she is the protagonist and though she may stumble along the way a little, she won't go the same way as Kylo (which is probably Luke's fear).
Their relationship will no doubt evolve into something positive in the long run.

OMG @Mana your siggie!

@Frolickingfizzgig

Then why is her relationship with Luke being called the "beating heart" of the film? She can't just drop the patriarchy and still have a profound relationship with Luke? Doesn't there have to be more here than that, despite what any of us individually *wants* for this film. I'm really trying to encourage outside-the-box thinking here because I feel it's something that has been nagging at the backs of our minds for a while now.

Luke's her connection to Kylo. He'll explain Kylo's past and Rey and Kylo's #RAWPOWAH. So, technically, it's safer to say that Ruke is the beating heart of the movie than RAWPOWAH Couple or all 3. I've no doubt that Ruke heart beats in the movie but it beats while discussing the Dangerous Dreamboat. If you know what I mean, maybe someone can explain it better.  

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:I wanted to open a thread to address the topic of character development in TLJ with a particular emphasis on the role Luke Skywalker will play in Rey and Kylo’s dynamic. I feel as though there is a sentiment of late—one I’ve also fallen into, mind you—that involves downgrading Luke’s role in TLJ because we just can’t reconcile the two different movies LF seems to be selling (TLJ with “beating heart” Rey and Luke and TLJ with “two sides of the protagonist” Rey and Kylo). A new line of thinking has even emerged after the trailer that Luke will simply be used as a plot-device to fuel Rey’s abandonment issues and turn her toward Kylo, and the more I think about it the more I’m sure this is not going to be the case, that it’s another red-herring the trailer wants us to believe when in reality something quite different is going to occur.

We’ve been told that Rey and Luke’s relationship will serve as the “beating heart” of this film. Rian said that Rey will be the one to “redeem” Luke in some manner. Daisy said that Rey will be disappointed by Luke, but that she’ll also go on an emotional journey with him and find a place alongside him. I think all of this information is hugely relevant and tends to be discounted because it’s so confusing. It’s confusing to me, too. So my question is, how do we reconcile two descriptions for this film that seem to contradict each other? Are we all looking at this from the wrong perspective in not including Luke in Rey and Kylo’s dynamic?

LUKE

Point A
Luke has spent 6 years hiding away on Ahch-To, barely tolerated by the female caretakers who look after the sacred place. He will suddenly be confronted by a stranger who confirms that his best friend is dead and begs him to come back to the fight. Haunted by his past mistakes and the fate of his nephew, Ben Solo, he has fallen to a state where he believes he should die the last true Jedi in the galaxy.

Development
Luke’s arc will surround being suddenly confronted by a new student whose intense, raw power reminds him of Ben Solo’s. He will be terrified of Rey at first, certain that history will only repeat itself if he lends her his aid and helps her to hone her Force abilities. However, through Rey’s guidance and connection to Kylo, Luke will eventually realize that this girl is not a lost cause. And if she isn’t, maybe Ben wasn’t either. He will confront both Kylo and his past, and Rey will serve as the catalyst that gives Luke a new insight into his nephew’s powers, emotional state and destiny. He will re-emerge as a confident teacher and will strive to make this right by returning to his sister’s side and attempting to help his nephew.

Point A to Point B
Disenfranchised, failed teacher to mature, optimistic master.

Take note that this is based on current information and does not rely on heavy plot spoilers. Character dynamics are surprisingly simple, but generally tell you a lot about where a narrative is going.

@FrolickingFizzgig

FWIW, I’m leaning towards your POV on Luke. I can’t reconcile a Dark Luke with the Luke I know. Conflicted? Yes. Dark? No.

I’m not sure we will get to optimistic Master in 8, though. I think we will have to sit for the triumphant fanfare at the end of 9 (mostly.)

vaderito wrote:OMG @Mana your siggie!

@Frolickingfizzgig

Then why is her relationship with Luke being called the "beating heart" of the film? She can't just drop the patriarchy and still have a profound relationship with Luke? Doesn't there have to be more here than that, despite what any of us individually *wants* for this film. I'm really trying to encourage outside-the-box thinking here because I feel it's something that has been nagging at the backs of our minds for a while now.

Luke's her connection to Kylo. He'll explain Kylo's past and Rey and Kylo's #RAWPOWAH. So, technically, it's safer to say that Ruke is the beating heart of the movie than RAWPOWAH Couple or all 3. I've no doubt that Ruke heart beats in the movie but it beats while discussing the Dangerous Dreamboat. If you know what I mean, maybe someone can explain it better.  

@vaderito
Yeah, that's largely how I take the quote too. Rey's current connection with Luke is basically this:



Rian's words just seem to point in a direction that doesn't quite align with truly villainous or antagonistic Luke trajectories, IMO. I'm hoping he goes through the majority of his development in this film and either emerges a confident master once more willing to help Kylo and Rey.

@FrolickingFizzgig - ha! That should go in one of the kid's reading books to explain the story in a nutshell.

I think Luke and Rey both have some pretty strong idealistic beliefs about the parent(s) who never raised them which are going to get blown up. Unless I'm overstating the different references Claudia Grey put in Bloodline from Leia's PoV about Luke getting all beatific in talking about their father's death to her . There was probably a thought bubble over Leia's head like "bless your heart, but our dad was an a**hole who cut off your hand and blew up my planet" while maintaining a tight forced smile because she's humoring him. I'd imagine whatever happened with Ben walloped Luke with the reality of what happened with Dear 'Ol Dad versus the story Obi-Wan fed him. Because Bloodline makes it sound like it fed into his Daddy issues. And Rey's been walking around for 16 or so years in denial that either she got abandoned or something sh*tty went down where she got ditched out of desperation and then something really sh*tty went down which kept her 'family' from coming back to retrieve her. I'm curious if their dual magical thinking about their parents (Luke's already found out, Rey hasn't) will be part of their story and character development in tandem with one another.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
Yeah, that's largely how I take the quote too. Rey's current connection with Luke is basically this:

Rian's words just seem to point in a direction that doesn't quite align with truly villainous or antagonistic Luke trajectories, IMO. I'm hoping he goes through the majority of his development in this film and either emerges a confident master once more willing to help Kylo and Rey.

@FrolickingFizzgig


Someone has to marry them.




http://ronrines.tumblr.com/post/152866899300/wedding-in-the-woods-i-am-a-desperate-lover

haha, Finn doesn't look happy on that fanart

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

Saracene wrote:Regarding Rey, I'm not really sure how well overwhelmingly powerful young woman who takes charge in an attempt to find her own place and strive to bring a shattered family back together mesh together. I mean, I can't really see where Rey herself is in all of this if she's basically out to fix other people's issues and families.

@Saracene
I'm just trying to reconcile how she'll feel toward Luke by the end of this movie if their dynamic is indeed supposed to be the "beating heart". I'm also imagining that she'll learn something terrible about her own past while simultaneously growing more attached to Luke (and possibly feeling a connection to Kylo). I'm struggling to imagine what else would bring her to care enough for their family, as we know quite well she has no literal blood relation to them. Overall I should say that I think Rey's arc will surround getting to that place where she's totally willing to let go of the past.

@Maria Antonietta
Then why is her relationship with Luke being called the "beating heart" of the film? She can't just drop the patriarchy and still have a profound relationship with Luke? Doesn't there have to be more here than that, despite what any of us individually *wants* for this film. I'm really trying to encourage outside-the-box thinking here because I feel it's something that has been nagging at the backs of our minds for a while now.

@FrolickingFizzgig

I think that there might be a situation of competing marketing signals here. We have all kinds of visual indicators, canon book indicators, and now some actual performance (MH) indicators that Luke has a problem. Now how far they take that problem, that's still yet to be seen, and that's where speculation comes in.

OTOH, we have Rian calling Luke and Rey the "beating heart" of the movie. So what does that mean? It could mean Luke and Rey are going to save each other somehow. But given how the visuals and trailer indicate that the mutual support will come from the Rey and Kylo relationship, it's reasonable to think that "beating heart" may not have such a simple meaning.

It's quite arguable that Kylo and Rey were the beating heart of TFA, even though they were antagonistic to each other. It's also arguable that "beating heart" refers to a spiritual issue. Luke may represent one viewpoint of force usage while Rey (and her other half, Kylo) another viewpoint, and through them the right answer must be teased out, with Rey probably acting as the prime mediator as her journey is likely to elicit the most unbiased truth on this question.

There is also the issue of Rian saying that Rey and Luke's relationship will not play out like Luke/Yoda, along with indicators that Kylo will serve as a teacher. There is also the issue of MH saying that he will have a reduced role and the concern of Luke taking over everything that has been expressed by the production, both which arguably undercut both the great master Luke and the uber-dark Luke theories (which I don't think anyone here advocates for), because each would make Luke too important.

So I think that this is not just a case of people just saying what they want. There are disparate pieces of evidence all over the place from which people can formulate a variety of arguments.

@SoloSideCousin
Absolutely, you're quite right. There are disparate pieces of marketing evidence pointing in a variety of different directions. I guess I just took Rian's words more at face-value and assumed Rey and Luke's dynamic would ultimately end up being a positive one. And as for the differences between the Yoda/Luke dynamic and the Luke/Rey dynamic... well, Yoda's relationship with Luke really wasn't that positive. Yoda had this air of superiority and wisdom, while I think Luke will disappoint Rey in more human, down-to-earth ways. But then how does one reconcile that with Rey finding a path with Kylo?

It's extremely possible that they were going for one push in the marketing a few months ago and have since moved on to another one. I got the sense that a lot of fans were pretty apathetic toward Luke and Rey's relationship being highlighted as what many saw as more important than what it would end up being in the film. So it's less that Rian was lying and more that he was exaggerating at the request of LF/Kennedy in order to appease the fanboy mentality that Luke still needs to be uber important.

Would you mind summarizing more of your ideas for this dark/antagonist Luke scenario? I've always imagined that Luke would be an antagonistic and opposing force to Rey for much of TLJ, but would ultimately emerge a hero again, and I find this thinking that something else will happen to be intriguing from a story perspective. I guess I just have trouble seeing how an antagonistic Luke wouldn't totally overshadow Rey and Kylo's story. I would love to hear your thoughts on this matter!

@FrolickingFizzgig

I got caught up with discussing Paterson in the film thread, so now I don't have a lot of time because I need to pick up my kid. But I will say this for now, one of the things that I like about MessedUp!Antagonist!Dark!Extreme!Zealous!Unstable!Luke is that IMO it will get him off the stage. If he is not a viable teacher or mentor, Rey and Kylo will need to figure out serious things by themselves. If he is a viable teacher, I think he will seep into everything and just suck the air away from Rey and Kylo.

To me it's like Dumbledore and Harry Potter (sorry @"Night Huntress ), but IMO Dumbledore needed to die so Harry could not always run back to him to save him. It's similar in a way to Frodo and Sam getting separated from the Fellowship, particularly Gandalf. These kinds of characters need to stumble in the dark and find their own way. If Luke is not trusted, for whatever reason, for a period of time, Rey and Kylo can do that ... *and* maybe teach Luke a few things once he pulls himself together. (Like I said above, Luke won't die a mess).

Night Huntress wrote:haha, Finn doesn't look happy on that fanart

@Night Huntress

The artist wanted it that way.

@SoloSideCousin

Yeah, Luke doesn't have to die. It's enough that he simply isn't there (as in have no understanding) so young people have to rely on each other rather than run back to him whenever they are over their heads. Ground opened between Rey and Kylo in TFA so that they could find a way to bridge the gap in TLJ. From:



to



Beautiful. There's even fire in both scenes.

vaderito wrote:

Night Huntress wrote:haha, Finn doesn't look happy on that fanart

@Night Huntress

The artist wanted it that way.

@vaderito

Yes, and for good reason- I don't think Finn will be happy about Rey & Kylo teaming up, let alone becoming involved romantically.
That's something I look forward to by the way. Finn & Kylo meeting- and Finn realizing something going on between Rey & Kylo- THAT will be interesting! Finn will be like those fan reactions to the trailer