Leia Organa in Episode IX

I didn’t see a topic for this yet. I wanted to talk about where we leave Leia and Ben’s relationship after TLJ.

After all the events were you all surprised that it seems Leia has given up on him? Or did you think she didn’t mean that line of “my son is truly gone”

Socialnole wrote:I didn’t see a topic for this yet. I wanted to talk about where we leave Leia and Ben’s relationship after TLJ.

After all the events were you all surprised that it seems Leia has given up on him? Or did you think she didn’t mean that line of “my son is truly gone”

@Socialnole

This one especially broke my heart. It sounded like Leia was giving up on the whole galaxy, but I wish she would have framed it like "I feel like we are losing him" or something else.
There are also questions if Kylo thinks she dead? Wouldn't he know she's not?

ReyofLightSide wrote:

Socialnole wrote:I didn’t see a topic for this yet. I wanted to talk about where we leave Leia and Ben’s relationship after TLJ.

After all the events were you all surprised that it seems Leia has given up on him? Or did you think she didn’t mean that line of “my son is truly gone”

@Socialnole

This one especially broke my heart. It sounded like Leia was giving up on the whole galaxy, but I wish she would have framed it like "I feel like we are losing him" or something else.
There are also questions if Kylo thinks she dead? Wouldn't he know she's not?

@ReyofLightSide

I thought that the movie was pretty vague on whether Kylo knew if she was dead or not. Maybe that was something that Rian wanted to leave up to Leia's arc in IX? (Makes sense, given that TLJ was written with the intention of IX being Leia's big movie.)

Kylo clearly looks upset when the other TIE destroys the bridge of the Raddus. I think that, in that moment at least, we can assume that he thinks that Leia is gone. It would have been nice to have gotten a little more confirmation of this a few scenes later in the film in some way. Hell, Kylo could have even thrown it out to Rey in one of their Force conversations. "You think that the Resistance is the answer? The Resistance is doomed. General Organa is dead, and the rest of the Resistance will die with her." Or something like that.

Once she's out of her coma, it's strange that Kylo doesn't appear to sense her at all. Although, I think that if he knew she was in the hangar on Crait, they would have done some sort of a cut shot between the two of them, showing that Kylo senses her presence there again. Maybe he was just too preoccupied being Eviler and Eviler at that point.

To me it seemed like she knew Kylo didn't pulled that trigger but movie made a mess of it. Did Kylo knew in his rage and state that Leia is alive and at the base on Crait? He should because they can connect through the force. She must've felt that he did something and now leads FO. Combine that with death of Han, she thinks he's gone.

Sad thing is that they'll never get to film a scene together and give the saga the proper ending. One of my biggest regrets not only for Ben but mainly for Leia. She virtually lost everything in her life.

I think her speech was to foreshadow a mother-son moment in IX. It's so sad to think that that would never happen. On the other hand, if anyone was to send Kylo Leia's message of love and hope and faith, it ought to be Rey now. No one else. But still, I really wanted a Leia and Ben moment.

By the way, did she know Ben changed his mind about attacking her? She must've. The way they filmed it.

Socialnole wrote:I didn’t see a topic for this yet. I wanted to talk about where we leave Leia and Ben’s relationship after TLJ.

After all the events were you all surprised that it seems Leia has given up on him? Or did you think she didn’t mean that line of “my son is truly gone”

@Socialnole

I think they were going to repair this relationship in IX, and now they can't. Which is severely sad to me considering that line of hers in TLJ.

She may had given up any reasonable hope (not that she would not want her son back of course, but at this stage she may think it would require a miracle). Also Luke tells her that 'noone is ever gone' so that is hopeful, for her and us the audience.

Also there must have been some deleted scenes (remember Rey talking to Leia on Crait in the BTS?) Maybe we will see this in the DVD. I am guessing Rey, rather than from the throne room appeairing straight in the Falcon, first met the rebels and Leia on Crait, and that is when she talked to Leia. Probably told her that (she could not convince Luke to come) and Kylo did not kill her (Rey) and did kill Snoke, but was still determined to fight the resistance. Maybe that is why Leia is more pessimistic (there was an opportunity that he may turn good, but didn't).

The situation with Kylo and Leia really disappointed and saddened me and I feel like I haven't gotten a chance to focus very much attention on it yet because I'm still processing so many other things, lol.

What really bothers me about it is that a mother should never give up on their child, or stop loving them. Especially since she knew Snoke was preying on Ben. Granted, Leia never said she stopped loving Ben, and I don't think she has, but to just accept he's gone is just heartbreaking. Seeing her take off with the Resistance, instead of going to her son irritated me, but what really bothered me were all the hints the movie kept pushing in our faces that Poe is Leia's surrogate son/heir.

In the OT, Leia never felt the connection or light in Vader the way Luke did so I was hoping this trilogy would give her the opportunity to see that with her son. I guess that's no longer possible. It looks like Rey will be the only call to the light for Kylo. This trilogy is such a subversion of SW expectations that I don't know what time xpect anymore so we'll see how it plays out.
.

LesCousinsDangereux wrote:She may had given up any reasonable hope (not that she would not want her son back of course, but at this stage she may think it would require a miracle). Also Luke tells her that 'noone is ever gone' so that is hopeful, for her and us the audience.

Also there must have been some deleted scenes (remember Rey talking to Leia on Crait in the BTS?) Maybe we will see this in the DVD. I am guessing Rey, rather than from the throne room appeairing straight in the Falcon, first met the rebels and Leia on Crait, and that is when she talked to Leia. Probably told her that (she could not convince Luke to come) and Kylo did not kill her (Rey) and did kill Snoke, but was still determined to fight the resistance. Maybe that is why Leia is more pessimistic (there was an opportunity that he may turn good, but didn't).

@LesCousinsDangereux

I think it's possible. Although they did have dialogue where, once Rey and Chewie were flying the Falcon around Crait, Rey looked at the homing beacon and said a line or two clearly indicating that she still hadn't found Leia's beacon yet...this was when the Resistance was escaping inside of the caves. Granted, it was a quick two-second line, and it could have been a re-shoot replacing a longer scene with Leia.

"Then my father is truly dead." Luke (ROTJ)....well, he wasn't, was he?

EchoBase wrote:"Then my father is truly dead." Luke (ROTJ)....well, he wasn't, was he?

@EchoBase

Remember even Yoda and Obi-wan's Forceghost told Luke "he is more machine than human and can't be saved" ? Well, they were wrong

Leia is the one character I'm very disappointed in- not just in TLJ but general in the ST and the new canon.
She wasn't very motherly in the old EU either- but she seems worse now.

Night Huntress wrote:

EchoBase wrote:"Then my father is truly dead." Luke (ROTJ)....well, he wasn't, was he?

@EchoBase

Remember even Yoda and Obi-wan's Forceghost told Luke "he is more machine than human and can't be saved" ? Well, they were wrong

Leia is the one character I'm very disappointed in- not just in TLJ but general in the ST and the new canon.
She wasn't very motherly in the old EU either- but she seems worse now.

@Night Huntress

Yeah, I agree. In particular,  it was completely insane for Leia not to go out there to face Kylo/Ben, with Luke or without ... especially when Poe had so much leadership growth(rolling my eyes).

Ben would have crumbled right then and there had she gone out. He would have similarly crumbled if Rey went out there (you know,  instead of having a great time shooting sith up).  But let's put Rey aside. Leia is his mother. She effed up with him. She could have just as easily distracted Kylo so the Resistance could escape as Luke did. Instead, the movie had the most antagonizing person who could ever confront Kylo go out there, Luke. And they did this for plot reasons, so there could be another movie. He couldn't kill Leia before, he wouldn't kill her then. In fact, I am pretty convinced that he thinks she is dead and he would have been blown away and internally thrilled to see her. He would have had a conversation with her and though he would be pissed, he would not have gone all crazy. If there is one thing about Leia, then it's that she's pragmatic and she might have been able to cut a deal with him, something that could never happen with Luke. Instead, they relied on misunderstandings (Leia probably thinks he tried to kill her) and averted logic so that IX could be the movie where Leia has her moment with her neglected son.

Seriously,  for the good of the story, they should really put aside the sentimentality and put Meryl Streep in there. She played Carrie once.  She could do it.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

Night Huntress wrote:

EchoBase wrote:"Then my father is truly dead." Luke (ROTJ)....well, he wasn't, was he?

@EchoBase

Remember even Yoda and Obi-wan's Forceghost told Luke "he is more machine than human and can't be saved" ? Well, they were wrong

Leia is the one character I'm very disappointed in- not just in TLJ but general in the ST and the new canon.
She wasn't very motherly in the old EU either- but she seems worse now.

@Night Huntress

Yeah, I agree. In particular,  it was completely insane for Leia not to go out there to face Kylo/Ben, with Luke or without ... especially when Poe had so much leadership growth(rolling my eyes).

Ben would have crumbled right then and there had she gone out. He would have similarly crumbled if Rey went out there (you know,  instead of having a great time shooting sith up).  But let's put Rey aside. Leia is his mother. She effed up with him. She could have just as easily distracted Kylo so the Resistance could escape as Luke did. Instead, the movie had the most antagonizing person who could ever confront Kylo go out there, Luke. And they did this for plot reasons, so there could be another movie. He couldn't kill Leia before, he wouldn't kill her then. In fact, I am pretty convinced that he thinks she is dead and he would have been blown away and internally thrilled to see her. He would have had a conversation with her and though he would be pissed, he would not have gone all crazy. If there is one thing about Leia, then it's that she's pragmatic and she might have been able to cut a deal with him, something that could never happen with Luke. Instead, they relied on misunderstandings (Leia probably thinks he tried to kill her) and averted logic so that IX could be the movie where Leia has her moment with her neglected son.

Seriously,  for the good of the story, they should really put aside the sentimentality and put Meryl Streep in there. She played Carrie once.  She could do it.

@SoloSideCousin

Yeah,I agree I get that Leia would have had a more central role in the next movie and she might have still been hurting over Kylo killing Han but I think it was a big mistake not to show any sort of confrontation between her and Kylo so they can set up that conflict.Now they'll never get the chance and it just leaves Leia's character on a very bad note.Yeah,yeah she gave Rey a pep talk about there still being hope for the Resistance but frankly I don't give damn about them (can this whole thing be anymore the Rebellion vs the Empire 2.0 at this point,please JJ do something different than just having the Resistance win) I just wanted to see Leia dealing with the fact that she was a horrible mother who failed her son on so many levels.I'm sorry I don't want to be harsh but after the truth about what went down between Ben and Luke it's just true and if she does indeed know that her brother tried to kill her son it makes her look even more horrible.
In retrospect I'm not sure why they build that entire arc in Bloodline where Leia learns how to relate to her father instead of simply hating him if she was going to give up on Ben,I don't know what they were thinking but I really hope they honor her and fix up that mess in 9.

CienaRee wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

Night Huntress wrote:

EchoBase wrote:"Then my father is truly dead." Luke (ROTJ)....well, he wasn't, was he?

@EchoBase

Remember even Yoda and Obi-wan's Forceghost told Luke "he is more machine than human and can't be saved" ? Well, they were wrong

Leia is the one character I'm very disappointed in- not just in TLJ but general in the ST and the new canon.
She wasn't very motherly in the old EU either- but she seems worse now.

@Night Huntress

Yeah, I agree. In particular,  it was completely insane for Leia not to go out there to face Kylo/Ben, with Luke or without ... especially when Poe had so much leadership growth(rolling my eyes).

Ben would have crumbled right then and there had she gone out. He would have similarly crumbled if Rey went out there (you know,  instead of having a great time shooting sith up).  But let's put Rey aside. Leia is his mother. She effed up with him. She could have just as easily distracted Kylo so the Resistance could escape as Luke did. Instead, the movie had the most antagonizing person who could ever confront Kylo go out there, Luke. And they did this for plot reasons, so there could be another movie. He couldn't kill Leia before, he wouldn't kill her then. In fact, I am pretty convinced that he thinks she is dead and he would have been blown away and internally thrilled to see her. He would have had a conversation with her and though he would be pissed, he would not have gone all crazy. If there is one thing about Leia, then it's that she's pragmatic and she might have been able to cut a deal with him, something that could never happen with Luke. Instead, they relied on misunderstandings (Leia probably thinks he tried to kill her) and averted logic so that IX could be the movie where Leia has her moment with her neglected son.

Seriously,  for the good of the story, they should really put aside the sentimentality and put Meryl Streep in there. She played Carrie once.  She could do it.

@SoloSideCousin

Yeah,I agree I get that Leia would have had a more central role in the next movie and she might have still been hurting over Kylo killing Han but I think it was a big mistake not to show any sort of confrontation between her and Kylo so they can set up that conflict.Now they'll never get the chance and it just leaves Leia's character on a very bad note.Yeah,yeah she gave Rey a pep talk about there still being hope for the Resistance but frankly I don't give damn about them (can this whole thing be anymore the Rebellion vs the Empire 2.0 at this point,please JJ do something different than just having the Resistance win) I just wanted to see Leia dealing with the fact that she was a horrible mother who failed her son on so many levels.I'm sorry I don't want to be harsh but after the truth about what went down between Ben and Luke it's just true and if she does indeed know that her brother tried to kill her son it makes her look even more horrible.
In retrospect I'm not sure why they build that entire arc in Bloodline where Leia learns how to relate to her father instead of simply hating him if she was going to give up on Ben,I don't know what they were thinking but I really hope they honor her and fix up that mess in 9.

@CienaRee

I agree with everything you say here. That moment with Luke was also a cop-out because they wanted to deal with that in the next movie when Rey tells her that Luke tried to kill Ben. And the Snoke thing, OMG, could we have the flashbacks of Leia being preoccupied while young Ben was being mentally molested? There needed to be massive conversation between the two of them on that. Finally, wouldn't it be nice if we had a moment where Leia chooses Ben over Poe? There is a lot of big stuff to settle here, and for this reason I really hope that Disney has a recast up their sleeve.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

CienaRee wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

Night Huntress wrote:

EchoBase wrote:"Then my father is truly dead." Luke (ROTJ)....well, he wasn't, was he?

@EchoBase

Remember even Yoda and Obi-wan's Forceghost told Luke "he is more machine than human and can't be saved" ? Well, they were wrong

Leia is the one character I'm very disappointed in- not just in TLJ but general in the ST and the new canon.
She wasn't very motherly in the old EU either- but she seems worse now.

@Night Huntress

Yeah, I agree. In particular,  it was completely insane for Leia not to go out there to face Kylo/Ben, with Luke or without ... especially when Poe had so much leadership growth(rolling my eyes).

Ben would have crumbled right then and there had she gone out. He would have similarly crumbled if Rey went out there (you know,  instead of having a great time shooting sith up).  But let's put Rey aside. Leia is his mother. She effed up with him. She could have just as easily distracted Kylo so the Resistance could escape as Luke did. Instead, the movie had the most antagonizing person who could ever confront Kylo go out there, Luke. And they did this for plot reasons, so there could be another movie. He couldn't kill Leia before, he wouldn't kill her then. In fact, I am pretty convinced that he thinks she is dead and he would have been blown away and internally thrilled to see her. He would have had a conversation with her and though he would be pissed, he would not have gone all crazy. If there is one thing about Leia, then it's that she's pragmatic and she might have been able to cut a deal with him, something that could never happen with Luke. Instead, they relied on misunderstandings (Leia probably thinks he tried to kill her) and averted logic so that IX could be the movie where Leia has her moment with her neglected son.

Seriously,  for the good of the story, they should really put aside the sentimentality and put Meryl Streep in there. She played Carrie once.  She could do it.

@SoloSideCousin

Yeah,I agree I get that Leia would have had a more central role in the next movie and she might have still been hurting over Kylo killing Han but I think it was a big mistake not to show any sort of confrontation between her and Kylo so they can set up that conflict.Now they'll never get the chance and it just leaves Leia's character on a very bad note.Yeah,yeah she gave Rey a pep talk about there still being hope for the Resistance but frankly I don't give damn about them (can this whole thing be anymore the Rebellion vs the Empire 2.0 at this point,please JJ do something different than just having the Resistance win) I just wanted to see Leia dealing with the fact that she was a horrible mother who failed her son on so many levels.I'm sorry I don't want to be harsh but after the truth about what went down between Ben and Luke it's just true and if she does indeed know that her brother tried to kill her son it makes her look even more horrible.
In retrospect I'm not sure why they build that entire arc in Bloodline where Leia learns how to relate to her father instead of simply hating him if she was going to give up on Ben,I don't know what they were thinking but I really hope they honor her and fix up that mess in 9.

@CienaRee

I agree with everything you say here. That moment with Luke was also a cop-out because they wanted to deal with that in the next movie when Rey tells her that Luke tried to kill Ben. And the Snoke thing, OMG, could we have the flashbacks of Leia being preoccupied while young Ben was being mentally molested? There needed to be massive conversation between the two of them on that. Finally, wouldn't it be nice if we had a moment where Leia chooses Ben over Poe? There is a lot of big stuff to settle here, and further reason I really hope that Disney has a recast up their sleeve.

@SoloSideCousin

Yeah,I wasn't really a fan for a recast Leia originally and although I'm still not sure whether it work or not I really think LF should seriously consider recasting her especially now that we know TLJ didn't give her a proper send off. They should at least recast someone to play a younger Leia for possible flashbacks with younger Ben.
I think what's most likely is that they'll have Rey fill in the role Leia would have originally played since their relationship is the central one in the trilogy but who knows I hope they do surprise us in a satisfying way.

Everything pretty much rests on Rey now- maybe she makes a promise to Leia to save Kylo. It would be pretty powerful but makes her too much of a guardian angel over him. Maybe if they actually develop use Rey's sadness over her parents it would be something deeper.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

Ben would have crumbled right then and there had she gone out. He would have similarly crumbled if Rey went out there (you know,  instead of having a great time shooting sith up).  But let's put Rey aside. Leia is his mother. She effed up with him. She could have just as easily distracted Kylo so the Resistance could escape as Luke did.

Yes, exactly- I understand why they didn't do it in that movie - but I would've preferred her telling people she will go out trying to distract her son and Luke could've stepped in in the last minute preventing it... it's the thought the counts, right?

SoloSideCousin wrote:
Instead, the movie had the most antagonizing person who could ever confront Kylo go out there, Luke. And they did this for plot reasons, so there could be another movie. He couldn't kill Leia before, he wouldn't kill her then. In fact, I am pretty convinced that he thinks she is dead and he would have been blown away and internally thrilled to see her. He would have had a conversation with her and though he would be pissed, he would not have gone all crazy. If there is one thing about Leia, then it's that she's pragmatic and she might have been able to cut a deal with him, something that could never happen with Luke. Instead, they relied on misunderstandings (Leia probably thinks he tried to kill her) and averted logic so that IX could be the movie where Leia has her moment with her neglected son.

Yes, all of this- and I agree...I don't think Kylo was aware his mother being still alive. Sure he should've felt her through the force. But he didn't for the same reason he didn't realized Luke was just a projection... he is smart when calm but in his rage he obviously can't think straight.

SoloSideCousin wrote:
Seriously,  for the good of the story, they should really put aside the sentimentality and put Meryl Streep in there. She played Carrie once.  She could do it.

@SoloSideCousin

Yeah, I hope so too- but I think they just let her die off-screen. Really really sad.  

The movie was pretty vague about some informations and circumstances. But one scene that caught my attention was that one when Chewie blow the door of Luke's hut. Luke looked at Chewie and asked about Han. It was an important scene to show us that the jedis or force sensitives don't know about everything that is happening in the world.

Sometimes I got the impression that people think that jedis and siths are aware of everything. But they are not. Palpatine became emperor under the nose of the jedis, etc.

I felt that Leia gave up of Kylo. I found sad and ironic to see that Kylo killed or tried to kill the people in his family that didn't give up on him. Leia didn't try to reach him (at least not on screen), but he avoided to kill her.

Atenais wrote:The movie was pretty vague about some informations and circumstances. But one scene that caught my attention was that one when Chewie blow the door of Luke's hut. Luke looked at Chewie and asked about Han. It was an important scene to show us that the jedis or force sensitives don't know about everything that is happening in the world.

Sometimes I got the impression that people think that jedis and siths are aware of everything. But they are not. Palpatine became emperor under the nose of the jedis, etc.

I felt that Leia gave up of Kylo. I found sad and ironic to see that Kylo killed or tried to kill the people in his family that didn't give up on him. Leia didn't try to reach him (at least not on screen), but he avoided to kill her.

@Atenais

Didn't Luke cut himself from the Force and than later on reconnected with Leia? At least that was my impression.

DarthRen wrote:

Atenais wrote:The movie was pretty vague about some informations and circumstances. But one scene that caught my attention was that one when Chewie blow the door of Luke's hut. Luke looked at Chewie and asked about Han. It was an important scene to show us that the jedis or force sensitives don't know about everything that is happening in the world.

Sometimes I got the impression that people think that jedis and siths are aware of everything. But they are not. Palpatine became emperor under the nose of the jedis, etc.

I felt that Leia gave up of Kylo. I found sad and ironic to see that Kylo killed or tried to kill the people in his family that didn't give up on him. Leia didn't try to reach him (at least not on screen), but he avoided to kill her.

@Atenais

Didn't Luke cut himself from the Force and than later on reconnected with Leia? At least that was my impression.

@DarthRen

But do you remember when Rey beat him with the staff, how he didn't really touch the floor when he fell, as if he was using the Force to prevent his fall. I don't believe he totally cut himself from the Force.

Atenais wrote:

DarthRen wrote:

Atenais wrote:The movie was pretty vague about some informations and circumstances. But one scene that caught my attention was that one when Chewie blow the door of Luke's hut. Luke looked at Chewie and asked about Han. It was an important scene to show us that the jedis or force sensitives don't know about everything that is happening in the world.

Sometimes I got the impression that people think that jedis and siths are aware of everything. But they are not. Palpatine became emperor under the nose of the jedis, etc.

I felt that Leia gave up of Kylo. I found sad and ironic to see that Kylo killed or tried to kill the people in his family that didn't give up on him. Leia didn't try to reach him (at least not on screen), but he avoided to kill her.

@Atenais

Didn't Luke cut himself from the Force and than later on reconnected with Leia? At least that was my impression.

@DarthRen

But do you remember when Rey beat him with the staff, how he didn't really touch the floor when he fell, as if he was using the Force to prevent his fall. I don't believe he totally cut himself from the Force.

@Atenais

Yeah, I meant more like he can use it, but disconnecting himself from the world outside. If it even works this way. Because if not, then he must have felt Leia on the distance.

Do you think Han & Leia knew the complete truth of what happened at the Temple. My suspicion is they got the first version that Luke told Rey?

Socialnole wrote:Do you think Han & Leia knew the complete truth of what happened at the Temple. My suspicion is they got the first version that Luke told Rey?

@Socialnole

I think he disappeared totally without a word or left a brief message of what happened and blaming himself, telling Kylo turned on him and they feared Vader side of him for years. Total shame they never knew the full extent of what happened.

Socialnole wrote:Do you think Han & Leia knew the complete truth of what happened at the Temple. My suspicion is they got the first version that Luke told Rey?

@Socialnole

I highly doubt Luke told Leia about his almost murder with her son, even if he didn't intend to go through with it.   Rey knows the truth, and in the event  they do recast Leia, that should be interesting.

It was sad but I understood why Leia lost hope. Kylo killed Han and was set on wiping out the Resistance. He didn’t fire on his mother’s ship but I’m not sure that Leia knew it wasn’t him. When the TIE fighters fired on the Raddus, her expression went from hopeful to sad resignation, so even if she knew the truth she couldn’t take any comfort from it.

I love Kylo but I’m not here for blaming Leia or Rey for his actions at the end. It isn’t their responsibility to save him, not now he’s chosen to become Supreme Leader.