Fan Reception of the Sequel Trilogy

Mod Note: this conversation was split off from the Crack Spoilers thread.

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@Atenais A good chunk of the fans don't really care about the story, if they even realize what the story is, which they generally don't. Reylo could happen and it could be the most epic thing ever, and people would just be confused, disappointed, and bored.

People wanted the ST to be Luke and Han being awesome, and puzzles to solve. It's more like a contest than an actual story to some.

californiagirl wrote:@Atenais A good chunk of the fans don't really care about the story, if they even realize what the story is, which they generally don't. Reylo could happen and it could be the most epic thing ever, and people would just be confused, disappointed, and bored.

People wanted the ST to be Luke and Han being awesome, and puzzles to solve. It's more like a contest than an actual story to some.

@californiagirl

Other day a cousin of mine, born in the 90s, was telling me how he finds this new sequel boring and how he likes the original one better. C'mon, he wasn't even born when the original sequel was released. That's so annoying.

Atenais wrote:

californiagirl wrote:@Atenais A good chunk of the fans don't really care about the story, if they even realize what the story is, which they generally don't. Reylo could happen and it could be the most epic thing ever, and people would just be confused, disappointed, and bored.

People wanted the ST to be Luke and Han being awesome, and puzzles to solve. It's more like a contest than an actual story to some.

@californiagirl

Other day a cousin of mine, born in the 90s, was telling me how he finds this new sequel boring and how he likes the original one better. C'mon, he wasn't even born when the original sequel was released. That's so annoying.

@Atenais

I think this sequel trilogy is, hands down, the most compelling of the three. I'm old... so does that get me cred.

californiagirl wrote:@Atenais A good chunk of the fans don't really care about the story, if they even realize what the story is, which they generally don't. Reylo could happen and it could be the most epic thing ever, and people would just be confused, disappointed, and bored.

People wanted the ST to be Luke and Han being awesome, and puzzles to solve. It's more like a contest than an actual story to some.

@californiagirl

This is a question, that I have been wondering about for some time. Star Wars is many things to many people. But I am wondering, after TLJ more than ever, how many people are actually that invested in the story and its themes that run through it? Very often I see talks about space battles, visuals, music, but story? That too, but not as much as the former aspects. Maybe this is just my experience, but I am curious.

@Man Without A Star The strangest thing is that this isn't nearly as complicated, confusing, or abnormal/deviating from traditional storytelling as is frequently thought. Even the elaborate, articulate, detailed, insightful pieces that have been written about TLJ miss the actual story, its connection to TFA, or how it resolves in IX. Like, what the actual point of all this is. People haven't realized even what type of story is being told, it's like TLJ just exists in its own personal little bubble, like a vacuum removed from the rest of the ST.

californiagirl wrote:@Man Without A Star The strangest thing is that this isn't nearly as complicated, confusing, or abnormal/deviating from traditional storytelling as is frequently thought. Even the elaborate, articulate, detailed, insightful pieces that have been written about TLJ miss the actual story, its connection to TFA, or how it resolves in IX. Like, what the actual point of all this is. People haven't realized even what type of story is being told, it's like TLJ just exists in its own personal little bubble, like a vacuum removed from the rest of the ST.

@californiagirl

everyone who enjoys reading will recognize certain tropes and themes in the ST - I often see similarities in the books and stories I consume...especially in fantasy or historical fiction. I can sometimes pick up quotes from them and directly apply it to the SW universe and it would fit perfectly.

But as someone already pointed out...not everyone enjoys Star Wars for the same reasons. For me the space battles, ships, costumes and fights are only "window dressing" I'm in for the story- the characters and relationships between them. Sentiment.

I can't tell you most ship names or the names of some character in the background, because that's not important for me.
My guess it's the same for the fans who are most interested in the battles and stuff. They want their epic fights and big showdowns on screen...a story about redemption, forgiveness and "mushy emotions" aren't what they want to see.

That's why they can't come-up with something original imo. They aren't really interested in the story.

@californiagirl

Yes, that's exactly it. I wholeheartedly embraced TFA and TLJ as one movie, separted in two parts, but often I see just this hateful climate, that it ruined everything, etc...

Man Without A Star wrote:

californiagirl wrote:@Atenais A good chunk of the fans don't really care about the story, if they even realize what the story is, which they generally don't. Reylo could happen and it could be the most epic thing ever, and people would just be confused, disappointed, and bored.

People wanted the ST to be Luke and Han being awesome, and puzzles to solve. It's more like a contest than an actual story to some.

@californiagirl

This is a question, that I have been wondering about for some time. Star Wars is many things to many people. But I am wondering, after TLJ more than ever, how many people are actually that invested in the story and its themes that run through it? Very often I see talks about space battles, visuals, music, but story? That too, but not as much as the former aspects. Maybe this is just my experience, but I am curious.

@Man Without A Star

Most fans I meet on message boards seem interested in space battles and epic light saber duels... and they just want their OT's heroes back. They don't really care about Rey, Finn and Poe... and of course they're infuriated because Rey's not a Skywalker. They just don't have the imagination for another story, which always amazes me.

Since I visit SW forums, except this one, I often wonder if I have watched the same movies than everybody... Not only the ST, but the whole saga. Like when they all want Kylo to be emprisoned in a space jail, or exiled... Since when SW is about punishment? There seems to be an incredible amount of fans who think that SW is about "good vs evil", which it is of course, but there's something else, isn't it? I always liked SW because it was not only "the good guys beat the bad guys"; it was also about how a fundamentally good person could turn wrong after a personal trauma, and also how love could bring this person back even after he committed the worst atrocities and didn't seem redeemable to most people...

I don't get that from most fans's comments I read on SW forums, and I feel them very upset because Kylo is not the terrifying evil guy they want him to be: they don't want to sympathize with him because he killed Han, but they can't totally hate him either because he's not made to be hated. Kylo shakes their little manichean vision of the SW universe... That's how I feel anyways.

And yes, even if Abrams comes with a superb Reylo story, these fans will keep moaning about it for the next 10 years, because they'll never get it. They'll never admit that someone can change that much and deserve to be loved. It's sad, but it's how it is I'm afraid.

I'm a long time fan, and I actually found TLJ the best of the entire saga so far. The story had depth, the acting was first rate, but most of all the film went where no SW film went before by actually showing how people are all shades of grey. None of these characters were perfect. A lot of male viewers complained the women were 'too good to be true' but I didn't see that at all. Roses belief in the Resistance was a little too fanatical at first, Leia didn't really have to shoot Poe with a stun gun, and Holdo, although probably the most honourable character in the film, made one mistake - she should have shared her plans with Poe. Yes, he was an a** but I actually felt sorry for him when he pleaded for her to give them some hope.
As for Rey, she meant well, but her biggest mistake was reaching for the sabre. Wrong reaction, big time. She could have just said 'get lost'!
I also like the scene where DJ showed Finn that Canto Bight was also weapon supplier to the Resistance as well as the First Order. I wish Disney had the courage to show a 'darker' Resistance in IX but sadly I doubt it.

@motherofpearl1

I totally agree- although I think TLJ only scratched the surface- there is so much potential for character growth and complexity that I'm kind of afraid we won't get that in IX.

I read so many great stories lately with really deep, complex, morally grey characters that the ones in SW (accept from maybe Kylo) all seem so weak and flat in comparison. And I know I shouldn't compare it because you can't go as deep in a "blockbuster family movie" as Star Wars and I know a book or TV series is a different media.... but I still kinda do it.

Anyway- sorry for the OT rant...to be frank: we have only one real stake left- and that's Kylo/Ben's fate. We know it's the last episode of the ST so the FO will be defeated one way or the other no surprises there.

As for Kylo/Ben I see only three options:

1. Kylo/Ben will be redeemed somehow and dies (most common theory among the GA I guess)
2. Kylo/Ben stays evil, and since there is no way of him staying evil and live, this would be his death sentence.
3. Kylo/Ben will be redeemed and live

So any leaks pretending to know anything about this arc I won't believe till I see the movie.

justyou wrote:(...) I think this sequel trilogy is, hands down, the most compelling of the three.   I'm old... so does that get me cred.  

@justyou

I agree, I'm old too (I was born the same year episode IV was released). SW was part of my childhood, but I feel that now I understand better these hero characters of my childhood, they are human afterall. Sadly, my friends don't feel the same.

Man Without A Star wrote:@californiagirl

Yes, that's exactly it. I wholeheartedly embraced TFA and TLJ as one movie, separted in two parts, but often I see just this hateful climate, that it ruined everything, etc...

@Man Without A Star

I feel absolutely THE SAME.

Mila Lazarus wrote:(...) Most fans I meet on message boards seem interested in space battles and epic light saber duels... and they just want their OT's heroes back. They don't really care about Rey, Finn and Poe... and of course they're infuriated because Rey's not a Skywalker. They just don't have the imagination for another story, which always amazes me.

Since I visit SW forums, except this one, I often wonder if I have watched the same movies than everybody... Not only the ST, but the whole saga. Like when they all want Kylo to be emprisoned in a space jail,  or exiled... Since when SW is about punishment? There seems to be an incredible amount of fans who think that SW is about "good vs evil", which it is of course, but there's something else, isn't it? I always liked SW because it was not only "the good guys beat the bad guys"; it was also about how a fundamentally good person could turn wrong after a personal trauma, and also how love could bring this person back even after he committed the worst atrocities and didn't seem redeemable to most people... (...)

@Mila Lazarus

Yes, I have the same feeling and sometimes this is annoying and frustrating. I feel like we have a great story in our hands and people don't care. Here we are, tearing off our hair, analysing about Kylo's future and people seem like they don't even care. Mainly my male friends seem more invested in space ships and light saber duels - which I love as well -, but what about the story? I'm so invested in this trilogy, the best one, IMO, and people keep their time with hate.

I don't know about you, guys, but this forum is heaven to me. It's the only place where I can really discuss about SW, about the story, about the characters. And, as @Mila Lazarus said, the most people I know just seem upset because Kylo is not the terrifying evil guy they want him to be. And I just want to scream, because Kylo is so amazing, I almost can't believe we have a character like that, with so many layers, in a SW movie.

@Mila Lazarus

I came to terms with them not ever coming to any sort of reconciliation with the ST.

Man Without A Star wrote:@Mila Lazarus

I came to terms with them not ever coming to any sort of reconciliation with the ST.

@Man Without A Star

There's still hope! Wasn't there a lot of hate directed at the PT 20 years ago? How many of the then haters have changed their mind and now praise the PT? To compare it with the ST of course.... Whait until the next SW goes out: they'll all say that the ST was great, finally

@Atenais
I like to spend some time on the Jedi Council board because there are interesting discussions on other subjets, but I avoid talking about Reylo there, and even about Ben Solo, at least when it turns sour. Each time comes up with Reylo arguments, he/she gets bullied, it's tiresome. The irony is that since no one posts pro-Reylo messages there, they are sure that the Reylo shippers are a small Tumbl minority

To be honest with you guys, I can't say that I LOVE the ST. I don't. I don't hate it either though... I wouldn't lost waste my time moaning about it if I did. I've become invested because of Kylo/Ben's character, that I consider as the most interesting of the saga, and his relationship with Rey. I'm also anxious to see where JJ Abrams will take us with these characters.

I have hesitated to give my opinion on TLJ on this forum because I am sure many will think because I am a fan/proponent of the Rey Kenobi theory I did not like TLJ because I did not get what I "wanted" or "expected". I can assure everyone that is not so. For me TLJ has technical issues as a film and is problematic as part of the saga. TLJ as a chapter/part should never outweigh the whole. But bravely I will go ahead and jump into the deep end now that I have had time to think about TLJ without emotion or expectation and give it some solid analysis from my pov...

I can say as an OG SW fan, that ST got off to a wonderful start with TFA but TLJ is for me and in my opinion one of the worst in the Saga, slapstick /gag humor, pacing, lack of swipes, scenery chewing, Looney Luke, seacow green milk, Leia Poppins, Foolish Finn, canto bight, broom boy, meta dialogue, roshomon flashbacks etc.  For me all of these things previously listed undercut the internal gravitas that all of the SW needs which allow an audience to suspend belief and get lost in a GFFA. This was the major issue with Jar Jar and the clumsy use of CGI in TPM that some fans are still heated about today.

Now to characterize all those who don't like TLJ because Luke was not SUPER Luke is a tad unfair. Speaking only for me,  I expected to Luke to be a helpful mentor to Rey in the traditional vein of Obi, Gandalf, Dumbledore.  No super-heroic feats of force where needed, just some dignity and for me the ending did not restore Luke at that point it was too little too late... and can I say I hated the last moment between Luke and Leia, as a lifetime fan of both I hated seeing Leia so defeated in that cave sitting there weak and old... Just no!!!! And now that I have seen TLJ more than once having POE peep Kylo outside fighting Luke instead of Leia CHAPS my freakin hide, what a moment that could have been for Carrie... but I digress.

Now for everyone teeing up to tell me I don't understand literature or Rian's genius, can I say that I do understand some of the major themes Rian was trying to hit on, and the major theme of the ST overall.... The ST is about moving from the Age of Pisces (Luke) to the Age of Aquarius (Rey) , the ST is about ushering in a New Age with new rules... Please see my video A journey through SW with Astrology & Tarot. There is a link I left in the Rey Kenobi files. I think many may find it enlightening. But some might say that the ST is really about the balance of the force and grey... yes it is and that is BECAUSE of the Age of Aquarius those things are intimately connected and Rey & Kylo are the key to all of it. But just because I understand TLJ doesn't mean I have to like TLJ.... or the style in which it was rendered. I might agree with the earnest and sincere drive behind the ideas and themes and disagree on how they where executed. For me the execution undercuts at times some of those sincere and lofty ideas that TLJ is trying to get across.

Now since this is a Reylo board, I will say I did not like what Rian did to Reylo in the last part of the film, I have always been a big advocate of Renperor but when Kylo throws Rey under the bus and tells Hux that Rey killed Snoke.. just NO! I hate that... I also hated Kylo saying that he will destroy Rey...  it's mustache twirling villainy and those things are unnecessary to TLJ, Reylo & Renperor. Many might disagree and that is fine I am not putting this comment here to change anyone's mind and now after seeing TLJ at least 5 times recently I am more cemented in my opinion that those things are a mistake, however  I hope JJ can fix that and give Kylo some gravitas back that he will need to complete his upward arc to his heroic journey/redemption.  


Point of this post, I don't think all criticism of TLJ or the ST should just be dismissed as disappointed theorists, "haters", Luke fans only, or misogynist/racist or people who can't think critically about film, literature, mythology and SW. There is room for nuanced thinking about fan reactions both good and bad about TLJ, RJ the ST and the future of GFFA. We are all looking forward to balance and "grey" well then we should start exercising that online and demonstrating it in practice and not just theory.

californiagirl wrote:@Man Without A Star The strangest thing is that this isn't nearly as complicated, confusing, or abnormal/deviating from traditional storytelling as is frequently thought. Even the elaborate, articulate, detailed, insightful pieces that have been written about TLJ miss the actual story, its connection to TFA, or how it resolves in IX. Like, what the actual point of all this is. People haven't realized even what type of story is being told, it's like TLJ just exists in its own personal little bubble, like a vacuum removed from the rest of the ST.

@californiagirl

To be fair, I wonder if it's any different to the OT era, after ESB was released. Did people go, duh Luke is so obviously going to redeem his father? Or did people argue about how Luke was going to defeat Vader and whether he lied about being Luke's father.

@Mila Lazarus I'm kinda similar in that I'm mostly invested in the ST because of Kylo; I love old!Han and Luke but their stories also very much center around Ben. I was hoping that TLJ could lift other characters like Finn and Poe (and even Rey), but in truth it only revealed the underlying flaws that were already there in TFA and could no longer be hidden by charm and delightfulness.

@spacebaby45678 As a fellow Rey Kenobi enthusiast, I was also disappointed in the film for other reasons, especially because I don't think that TLJ closed the door on RK completely.

Here's my take after some time has passed:

I think that Rian didn't fully accept what J.J. had left him. He wanted to create new secondary characters so he marginalized the ones from TFA (Hux, Phasma, Maz). Maz was such a wonderful character and her cameo in TLJ was a bummer. I thought there was great potential for development of a rivalry/hatred between Finn and Phasma and he short-armed that. J.J. left him a huge mystery box in Rey's origin and the way he handled it was almost resentful. Holdo seemed like a character that was created by Rian so he could find a part for Laura Dern.

I actually liked the way he handled the Reylo part, and I actually liked the Canto Bight sequence, although I felt like it was a little implausible jammed into the middle of the chasedown. I seem to be the only person in the world that didn't mind the Leia Poppins part. I also didn't mind the portrayal of Luke as disgruntled and demoralized.

But I think Rian jammed too much story into too little space and that affected pacing and character development. It also made Luke's arc from angry old man to savior less convincing. I feel that the movie had some similarities to ROTJ in feel. A little too goofy for my tastes, with some great dramatic moments thrown in. So I don't think it was terrible. But I loved Rey in TFA, she just seemed like part of the scenery in TLJ. And while I thought Han's sendoff was brilliant in TFA, I found Luke's sendoff lacking.

All that said, I don't think the ST story has been irreparably harmed . I like where we find ourselves in the story. I'm hoping J.J. gives me that magic feeling again. Though I can't for the life of me fathom why they couldn't get Kasdan back on script duty.

fuhry wrote:@spacebaby45678 As a fellow Rey Kenobi enthusiast, I was also disappointed in the film for other reasons, especially because I don't think that TLJ closed the door on RK completely.  

Here's my take after some time has passed:

I think that Rian didn't fully accept what J.J. had left him.  He wanted to create new secondary characters so he marginalized the ones from TFA (Hux, Phasma, Maz).  Maz was such a wonderful character and her cameo in TLJ was a bummer.  I thought there was great potential for development of a rivalry/hatred between Finn and Phasma and he short-armed that.  J.J. left him a huge mystery box in Rey's origin and the way he handled it was almost resentful.  Holdo seemed like a character that was created by Rian so he could find a part for Laura Dern.

I actually liked the way he handled the Reylo part, and I actually liked the Canto Bight sequence, although I felt like it was a little implausible jammed into the middle of the chasedown.  I seem to be the only person in the world that didn't mind the Leia Poppins part.  I also didn't mind the portrayal of Luke as disgruntled and demoralized.  

But I think Rian jammed too much story into too little space and that affected pacing and character development.   It also made Luke's arc from angry old man to savior less convincing.   I feel that the movie had some similarities to ROTJ in feel.  A little too goofy for my tastes, with some great dramatic moments thrown in.  So I don't think it was terrible.  But I loved Rey in TFA, she just seemed like part of the scenery in TLJ.  And while I thought Han's sendoff was brilliant in TFA, I found Luke's sendoff lacking.

All that said, I don't think the ST story has been irreparably harmed .  I like where we find ourselves in the story.  I'm hoping J.J. gives me that magic feeling again.  Though I can't for the life of me fathom why they couldn't get Kasdan back on script duty.  

@fuhry

I agree completely with you on  Hux, Phasma & Maz... I am extremely disappointed in Hux, Domnhall nailed the FO speech and I consider it a classic and Disney uses it in it's Galactic Nights presentation. Now that speech and Hux have been undermined by his slapstick treatment by both Snoke & Kylo. JJ will probably kill him off in the first act of EP9. The Phasma Finn showdown should have come in EP9, it was one episode too early. Maz went from standing and fighting them to not caring. It is so strange. TLJ feels disjointed to me. Rian def had his own strong ideas and opinions on TFA, and his own personal likes and dislikes come through crystal clear.

Angry old man Luke is a major sticking point with me, and even as I understand that Skywalkers are moody and mutable ( watery) Luke was always an optimist. And, as he is representative of the Age of Pisces... Pisces is an age of FAITH. Faith is in essence OPTIMISM. That even RJ as he is writing this, throwing in a ton of Piscean imagery for Luke, Fishes, Fish Nuns & Vesica Pisces, he is ignoring. I can not reconcile, it does not compute with me. Luke shows a little faith in the end when he tells Leia no one is ever truly gone. Now how did he forget this and become a curmudgeon?  TLJ contradicts itself here and in other places. The only thing I can think is that RJ does not "get" the role "faith" i.e. "optimism" plays in Christianity/GFFA/Piscean Age? The main verse RJ should have kept as Luke's byline from the new testament ( as read at my own mother's funeral)

2 Timothy 4:7  

"I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith"

Luke is everything in contradiction to the above verse. Unacceptable.


Mystery Rey Box Nobody... Well, I can let this go, I don't need it solved and given to me on a silver platter. I am willing to learn from the message that anyone can be a hero ( even though) that message is already clear in Luke, Anakin, Obi and every other Jedi who ever came before Rey. However, even as the film is saying Nobody with its lips it is giving Rey a ton of Kenobi callbacks more than Padme callbacks,  much more. So symbolically and lyrically Rey is still reading as a Kenobi and I am satisfied with that.

Essentially, I think my biggest issue with RJ's Meta-narrative is that it is so darn PREACHY, I don't need a sermon. I need an entertaining film.

@furhy, I agree with you... I don't think that the ST is irreparably harmed but I am glad Kasden is not back. I find him too dark and jaded for my taste in GFFA, Solo was a tad too dark. I would love a happy ending for Kylo/Ben & Rey and I would not count on Kasden to give us one as his proclivities are the opposite.  but Kasden was a perfect match for Harrison's Indiana Jones and I mean pitch perfect. Those two are a match made in heaven.

Ultimately, despite TLJ, I am optimistic that EP9 will deliver a satisfying end to the Saga because I am a died in the wool optimist as Luke should have stayed despite his failure with Kylo.

@Saracene, I was ten years old when ESB came out. I remember not liking it as much as ANH because it slowed down and developed the characters. I really wasn't interested in Luke's training with Yoda. I was there for the relationship part of Star Wars not the Jedi Lore. Which is probably why I was not thrilled with the Prequel trilogy when it came out.

The OT trilogy came out before social media so I have never read anything about the discussions people were having about it. Since I was a kid, my conversations amounted to:  Can you believe Vader is Luke's dad, I can't believe Leia and Han fell in love and who wants to play Star Wars.

Saracene wrote:To be fair, I wonder if it's any different to the OT era, after ESB was released. Did people go, duh Luke is so obviously going to redeem his father? Or did people argue about how Luke was going to defeat Vader and whether he lied about being Luke's father.

@Mila Lazarus I'm kinda similar in that I'm mostly invested in the ST because of Kylo; I love old!Han and Luke but their stories also very much center around Ben. I was hoping that TLJ could lift other characters like Finn and Poe (and even Rey), but in truth it only revealed the underlying flaws that were already there in TFA and could no longer be hidden by charm and delightfulness.

@Saracene

This.

But, the other trilogies have their boring or overestimated characters as well (Boba Fett who?).

We're talking about a blockbuster movie, so, we can't expect too much depth. That being told, I think the ST delivers a very good story. About people don't understanding it or not being invested in the story, I don't think this is just about SW. We just have to look around, the world is kinda dull this moment. People believe in fakenews! lol

Looks like even in this forum, the ST isn't an unanimity.

When I joined this forum, I commented that, even if I like the Reylo idea, Reylo didn't need to be endgame for me to enjoy the story. And I watched both movies without head canons (Rey could be daughter of anybody, that I would be ok, etc.), so, I was open to the story, and this way I didn't get disappointed. Maybe this makes the difference...?

TLJ has the paradox of both being too vague for much the audience to understand, but also is so on-the-nose, and even, as said above, preachy. Though I don't mind the preachiness, SW has always been not especially subtle.

JJ said even before TLJ was filmed that TLJ's script was great, and that he wished he was directing it, and was very much what they had in mind. He and Rian were at the very least on speaking terms before and after TFA. Last year he said that IX was not being written to respond to the TLJ backlash. I'm inclined to believe him. There's being polite, but this, if not true, would be full-on lying, which I don't think is happening, no one can afford it at this point.

I wasn't that surprised at the general direction Luke went, I thought it was sort of set up in TFA. There was a bit of the Art of TLJ book that shows this arc decided on dating back to January 2013, apparently GL was on board for it. https://twitter.com/PhilSzostak/status/1065290694930063360 Though Rian certainly dialed it to 11. Like he took the concept and went to the max with it. Perhaps JJ had a slightly softer version in mind.

They would've really had to backtrack to make Rey Kenobi happen, but I do think the Kenobi parallels and visual cues are deliberate. Rey has some of both Obi-Wan and Padme, incidentally the two people Anakin was closest to. He was told he could either have one or the other, be a Jedi or have normal relationships. Which was always one of the Jedi's fatal flaws, though some people take the Jedi's monk-like ways at face value. But now in the new era, why not have both, rolled into one? Kind of poetic actually.

Wonder if they'll spell out the comparisons, the general themes, or how the ST connects to the prequels, so people get it, or keep it low key and sort of unspoken. While supposedly Kasdan might be lurking around as he did with TLJ, he is not one of the actual writers in the ST after TFA. Honestly, looking back on TFA, it really has Kasdan's stamp on how bleak things had gotten, the tragedy of Kylo, the tragedy of Han's death, all the visual symbolism and callbacks and dialogue that has multiple meanings, this very non-JJ-like adult darkness in the way the Reylo stuff plays out.

With JJ at the helm of IX, even if he's with another writer, and this being the last chance to get the message through, and given how confused many people are, I have a feeling it could be a bit more obvious than before.

Quite a few people here don't like TLJ, it's one of the few places where people don't immediately attack each other over it. It's more that many here are frustrated with the complete lack of comprehension of the ST on the part of some, regardless of their feelings on the film itself. Like even the really well-spoken, intelligent people of the mainstream media aren't picking up on the central story at all. Like we just had this really (maybe even overly) elaborate pair of movies just so we could learn "Kylo bad!" Like, really?

Having been around for the OT in real time, in my very humble opinion, Boba was never overestimated. He was fascinating to that generation because George is a very clever man. Boba is a clever space remix of Clint Eastwood's man with no name from Leone's spaghetti western trilogy.  So Boba works on the 1970's/80's audience subliminally. The audience of that time got what Boba was about instinctively and that is why his fans were obsessive without a proper narrative for the character. He works symbolically.

Cad Bane continues that tradition



I was thirteen for ESB, and I loved all the Dagobah Yoda arc, however, Han & Leia were an absolutely perfect counterbalance. As a young kid being raised in an extremely religious home, Obi's & Yoda's soliloquies about the God-like "force" was a revelation to me. I loved them and still do. They were a welcome relief from all the hellfire and brimstone end of the world armageddon "spirituality" that was being propagated in much of the midwest, west & south in the US. at that time.

Bringing this back to Rey & Luke's turn at narrating a new force soliloquy, again TLJ fails to match the awe and grandeur of the two previous, not DR's fault, that moment should have been Luke's to give to Rey and the audience, additionally, the writing could have been better.

@spacebaby45678

your opinion is perfectly valid- I love TLJ, that doesn't mean I'm blind to its flaws...I especially agree with you on Leia. She could have had so many meaningful deep moments, and we didn't get that for some reason. Maybe they wanted to save all "Leia moments" for IX which should've been her movie, or Rian just choose to focus on the other characters more...but the whole ST has a lot of missed opportunities.

A few examples:

- Finn got heavily injured by Kylo in TFA - never mentioned again...it's like it never happened.
- Leia connected with her son during the attack on the Raddus- we never learn if Leia knew it wasn't Ben who pulled the trigger.
- Leia haven't seen her son for many years...and when he shows-up on Crait she never even thought of confronting him?

Allover I wonder what the Sith Han & Leia were doing while their son went missing after the Luke's Temple incident...but that's another topic.

I think LF sacrifices a lot of story depth to keep the endgame/twist a secret till the very last second...I'm not sure it will pay off to be honest.

Night Huntress wrote:@spacebaby45678

your opinion is perfectly valid- I love TLJ, that doesn't mean I'm blind to its flaws...I especially agree with you on Leia. She could have had so many meaningful deep moments, and we didn't get that for some reason. Maybe they wanted to save all "Leia moments" for IX which should've been her movie, or Rian just choose to focus on the other characters more...but the whole ST has a lot of missed opportunities.

A few examples:

- Finn got heavily injured by Kylo in TFA - never mentioned again...it's like it never happened.
- Leia connected with her son during the attack on the Raddus- we never learn if Leia knew it wasn't Ben who pulled the trigger.
- Leia haven't seen her son for many years...and when he shows-up on Crait she never even thought of confronting him?

Allover I wonder what the Sith Han & Leia were doing while their son went missing after the Luke's Temple incident...but that's another topic.

I think LF sacrifices a lot of story depth to keep the endgame/twist a secret till the very last second...I'm not sure it will pay off to be honest.

@Night Huntress

Night Huntress wrote:@spacebaby45678

your opinion is perfectly valid- I love TLJ, that doesn't mean I'm blind to its flaws...I especially agree with you on Leia. She could have had so many meaningful deep moments, and we didn't get that for some reason. Maybe they wanted to save all "Leia moments" for IX which should've been her movie, or Rian just choose to focus on the other characters more...but the whole ST has a lot of missed opportunities.

A few examples:

- Finn got heavily injured by Kylo in TFA - never mentioned again...it's like it never happened.
- Leia connected with her son during the attack on the Raddus- we never learn if Leia knew it wasn't Ben who pulled the trigger.
- Leia haven't seen her son for many years...and when he shows-up on Crait she never even thought of confronting him?

Allover I wonder what the Sith Han & Leia were doing while their son went missing after the Luke's Temple incident...but that's another topic.

I think LF sacrifices a lot of story depth to keep the endgame/twist a secret till the very last second...I'm not sure it will pay off to be honest.

@Night Huntress

Thank you.

I was a kid when ANH/ESB showed up and I can tell you none of us thought too deeply about the whys and wherefores. We were too busy enjoying ourselves watching SW and playing dungeons and dragons

Night Huntress wrote:@spacebaby45678


- Finn got heavily injured by Kylo in TFA - never mentioned again...it's like it never happened.

@Night Huntress

Not only that, he's injured and unconscious before Starkiller base is destroyed and before Rey draws the lightsaber to her and defeats Kylo. To me, after TFA, it was fascinating to think of the possibilities of how that could be used dramatically. Finn would wake up having no idea what happened. Rian only used "Where's Rey" as a segue to take us back to Atch-To.