How Will Palpatine's Return Complete the ST?

I've been thinking about this a lot the past few weeks. If we assume that JJ's main goal in IX will be to complete the storyline of the ST and the penultimate destination all along has been freeing the Skywalker family from Palpatine's plot for revenge against Luke, Han, Leia and Ben, how is JJ going to use Palpatine's return to tie together VII, VIII and IX? The simplest answer seems to be that he was really the one behind the scenes all along and Snoke was acting as an in-between or was even being possessed by Palpatine's disembodied dark side spirit. The Skywalker family only believed Snoke to be responsible, but in reality he was just a stand-in. Did Palpatine get to Kylo through Vader's helmet? Is his essence somehow still existing within dark side relics and are those relics connected to the mysterious macguffin Rey and Kylo are racing to find in IX?

I think whatever Rey is searching for will not be directly related to Palpatine at first, but as leaks imply, the macguffin evolves as the story progresses, possibly after Rey and Kylo engage in their Force flash battle and visit the Star Wars greatest hits album? Something about the past will become clear to them and they'll realize they have to work together in order to stop the greatest evil in the galaxy.

I also feel there will be a bit of a twist or bait-and-switch with Rey and Kylo in the marketing. There will be a lot of build-up to this grand confrontation, but the twist will be that it happens halfway through the film and serves as the main event that makes the ST storyline "click" by allowing Rey and Kylo to revisit the past.

I think it would make for a disappointing story if Palpatine had absolutely nothing to do with the events of the ST so far, and just pops out as a last-minute threat. Then it all really looks a lot like the desperate “remember this??” fanservice, as much as I love Palpy. It would be interesting to know how Kylo feels about the Emperor as the historical figure.

I’m not sure though if the SW Greatest Locations are going to be anything more than window dressing for Rey and Kylo’s fight. I agree though that it’s likely to happen closer to the middle of the film and is bound to shift things in some major way.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:I've been thinking about this a lot the past few weeks. If we assume that JJ's main goal in IX will be to complete the storyline of the ST and the penultimate destination all along has been freeing the Skywalker family from Palpatine's plot for revenge against Luke, Han, Leia and Ben, how is JJ going to use Palpatine's return to tie together VII, VIII and IX? The simplest answer seems to be that he was really the one behind the scenes all along and Snoke was acting as an in-between or was even being possessed by Palpatine's disembodied dark side spirit. The Skywalker family only believed Snoke to be responsible, but in reality he was just a stand-in. Did Palpatine get to Kylo through Vader's helmet? Is his essence somehow still existing within dark side relics and are those relics connected to the mysterious macguffin Rey and Kylo are racing to find in IX?

I think whatever Rey is searching for will not be directly related to Palpatine at first, but as leaks imply, the macguffin evolves as the story progresses, possibly after Rey and Kylo engage in their Force flash battle and visit the Star Wars greatest hits album? Something about the past will become clear to them and they'll realize they have to work together in order to stop the greatest evil in the galaxy.

I also feel there will be a bit of a twist or bait-and-switch with Rey and Kylo in the marketing. There will be a lot of build-up to this grand confrontation, but the twist will be that it happens halfway through the film and serves as the main event that makes the ST storyline "click" by allowing Rey and Kylo to revisit the past.

@FrolickingFizzgig

I would prefer Snoke being an in-between. My issue with Snoke being possessed by Palps is how do you explain Luke did not sense it. It’s true that we don’t know if Luke ever met face to face with Snoke or even in a close distance - another one that would be nice to answer because the OT trio seems to somehow know Snoke, but how much do they know him? - but if he did, it’d made him look like a tool who can’t recognize the dark force wielder he once faced personally. I really lean on the theory that Palps was lurking in the OR, where no one could sense him, maybe regaining strength or looking for something, and Snoke’s death forces him to come out of hiding to show that annoying grandson of Vader and that nobody with their raw untamed powers who’s the boss. But then if Luke never met Snoke, I guess possession could work too.

But now, thinking about it, I am very annoyed that we don’t know if Luke ever met Snoke. I still have the feeling the two must have met and even fought. What’s the story there? How did Snoke rise? Will we get a story?

I'm almost sorry we won't have the Emperor sneering at Luke like, "Young Skywalker, look at how old you've become" while they wave their canes at each other and have to stop fighting because it's time for their water aerobics class, daily nap, or the line up for the Early Bird Special. And I don't want actual explanation of who Snoke was because I prefer my personal theory that he's a disgruntled former customer Han ripped off a la Kanjaklub. At least bringing the Emperor back into the fold makes it easier to understand how Ben could've been targeted from the time Leia was pregnant with him when Han was the only living person outside of the twins who knew Vader's actual full identity. Because that managed to stay secret until Casterfo outed Leia, 23 years later.

Prior to the trailer coming out, there was the First Order's world building via novels like Empire's End, Bloodline, and the TLJ novel. The easiest answer was that the Emperor had a contingency plan in place for his succession and Snoke had the knowledge/cunning to to use it to his advantage. The internal villain's monologue section at the start of the Throne Room chapter in the Fry novelization goes into depth about being the last man standing because he played the other Imperial remnants against each other. Based on that information and then seeing Solo, my conclusion was Snoke = the Dryden Vos of the First Order. The wealthy and ruthless public face who fronts for the actual big fish who's running the show behind the scenes. Which funny thing, where did "there's always a bigger fish" first enter into the Saga themes?



Solo picked up that theme with "Everybody works for somebody." So I figured what was coming next in TRoS was Ben as Supreme Leader having his Qi'ra moment of contending with whomever was backing the First Order. Turns out it's more complicated than just the rich a**holes on Canto Bight Rose wants to beat up. Also funny in retrospect, Rian laid it out by saying that his turn in the Throne Room was becoming "the villain he thinks he should be." Guess what Ben? Being the New Vader means dealing with the actual sh*t Vader went through with his scary master. So that's piqued my interest beyond how the ending of TLJ felt like they were setting up a situation like the original backstory Kasdan and Lucas wrote for the OT where Vader's wife turning against him to work as a spy/operative on the opposite side ("complicated enemies.")

Another theme where I'm curious to see how it plays out with the Emperor in play is "the burden of true masters, we are what they grow beyond." Because the Succession plan/bringing back the Empire and Emperor at this point becomes one person maintaining their control over the status quo. In contrast to how they've said Leia's challenge is in training the leaders who can take over for her in moving the Resistance forward and Yoda showed up to smack Luke around about what he should be teaching his students (showdown on Crait was his 3rd lesson, final lesson as Ben's Master) . The First Order was already screwed up with Snoke controlling the situation to entrench himself and manipulating his leaders to fight against one another. Now they're bringing the Emperor back - the guy whose catchphrase is "I am the Senate." Between that and our two favorite squabbling coworkers/rivals, my guess is we're going to see the office politics at the First Order get even dirtier.

Saracene wrote:I think it would make for a disappointing story if Palpatine had absolutely nothing to do with the events of the ST so far, and just pops out as a last-minute threat. Then it all really looks a lot like the desperate “remember this??” fanservice, as much as I love Palpy. It would be interesting to know how Kylo feels about the Emperor as the historical figure.

I’m not sure though if the SW Greatest Locations are going to be anything more than window dressing for Rey and Kylo’s fight. I agree though that it’s likely to happen closer to the middle of the film and is bound to shift things in some major way.

@Saracene
The Force flashing seems like an evolution of the Kylo and Rey Force connection where they could talk to each other across space. I would be really surprised if it wasn't relevant to the story in some way because it's a new power we've never seen before. It really can't just be window dressing, it's a little too specific for that. TLJ even had Kylo and Rey's interactions serve as foreshadowing to Luke using Force projection. Because it was explained via Kylo we knew exactly what was happening when Luke cast his presence onto Crait. I expect something similar here. It's either going to be a means through which they learn something about the past or foreshadowing to something later in the film.

@SanghaRen
A go-between is fine too. More of a Sarumon/Sauron situation. But yes, you're correct that we don't know if Luke ever really met Snoke. I'm sure we'll get that story eventually.

Glad you started this thread @FrolickingFizzgig - thanks.

Is this thread going to be for spoilers? I'm thinking discussing force flashes is spoilery and some fans (stronger than I) may wish to avoid that?

Interesting conversation here all..
When we got the tease of Palpatine’s cackle and found Palpatine will be revisited in some way in TROS, my thoughts went back to conversations on this forum in the Snoke in IX thread. I remembered exploring some crazy out there ideas and having fun with it.. pondering how Snoke and Palpatine compared.. and how they may fit together. This conversation is even more interesting now in light of the new information. I’ll resist copying over the full conversation though. If you are interested in reading the full exchanges see HERE

Wanted to give this comment from that thread a shout out:

TheBastardofMandalore wrote:@BB-Rey
This is a great thread! Thanks for posting it.
I do agree that Snoke’s death seemed way to simple in TLJ and that his ring possibly has something to do with his longevity/ability to cheat death. (Formerly) Darth Maul was cut in half in TPM and survived until Kenobi finally offed him permanently in Rebels season 3. If Maul survived being cut in half, then Snoke, an ancient and extremely powerful being from the unknown regions, could easily survive and more...

Also, to add a bit more to your speculation regarding the ring. We know that Emperor Palpatine had a contingency plan called “Project Resurrection” in SW Battlefront 2 should the Empire fall. But the plan most likely had a double meaning. Not only was the plan meant to resurrect the remnants of the Empire but possibly Snoke as well. The “unknown” dark force that had been calling out to Palpatine.  The Emperor was also collecting ancient Force relics for some unknown reason. Could this ring of the Four Sages be the item that was used to re-awaken a half dead Snoke from some ancient realm/prison/tomb deep in the unknown regions? Think Voldemort from Harry Potter meets Sauron and the Witch King from LOTR. My next question(s) would be then is Snoke the dark sage himself (who might have been banished from his order)? Or, is he an even older being and the Sages were the keepers of the ring?

@TheBastardofMandalore
-whoa! So close!!!  ‘Project Resurrection’ may have been about resurrecting the remnants of the Empire (Improved version) and… It's Emperor too!

In the Snoke in IX thread, I played around with the idea that Palaptine’s knew of the World between Worlds, and that maybe he had documented this knowledge, and Snoke had found it..
Then @TheBastardofMandalore  suggested that (forgive me for paraphrasing), Maybe Snoke was trapped in there and Palpatine ended up releasing him.

I responded with:

DeeBee wrote: …I think this content is also hinted at in TLJ novelisation..
Snoke being trapped somewhere for eons and then being released - that sounds totally plausible to me! I like it!
Maybe Snoke being released was part of Palpatine's contingency plan post empire defeat? Do you think this is possible?

We learn some of Snoke's thoughts at the start of chapter 25 of the expanded novelisation. And there is mention of Palpatine. I'll share this snippet: (page 217)

I think this passage leaves things very open. It tells us Snoke came along at the right time in the right place with the right knowledge to stop the complete destruction of the empire's remnants and to ensure the rebirth of it as the FO. Hmm that does sound to me like exactly what Palpatine would have been hoping to achieve with his contingency!! Maybe Snoke was Palpatine's secret instrument.

From what I've seen, the earliest detailed instance of Snoke acting in the galaxy so far is his influencing Ben Solo from in the womb - is this right? It's interesting, because Ben's conception was very soon after the death of Palpatine... Maybe with Palpatine's death, Snoke was set free somehow?

Is it possible Palpatine was Snoke's instrument- and Snoke sat back and let events unfold till the galaxy was ready for him to rise to power?  Hmm I think I like that... haaaa...  Snoke certainly loves to manipulate others in a rather convoluted, Machiavellian, twisted way to achieve his own ends. And he is a bold risk taker... But Snoke's thinking in the above passage is that the 'evolution of the first order had been more improvisation than master plan.' soooo hmm maybe Palpatine was the planner, and Snoke was the improvisor?! Palpatine as Snoke's instrument does seem less likely I guess.. thoughts?

I wonder if any of this will be relevant to IX. Still even if it's not, it's super interesting!
I've always had in the back of my mind that to defeat Snoke and truly kill him - Rey and Ben need to come together to bring balance to the galaxy as a whole.. it would certainly be epic!

I was toying around with Snoke and Palpatine being connected – but which of them was running the show?
Seems with the return of Palpatine – and how Palpatine has been the big bad throughout the whole saga- Palpatine running the show seems to fit best for bringing all the 9 movies to a conclusion.  Makes sense that his return was the final step in in his contingency plan..
TLJ novelisation parts from Snoke’s POV don’t give any clues that Snoke was working on behalf of someone else. What do you all think?
So I now lean toward Snoke having been a tool of Palpatine’s and not knowing it.. The old Phantom Menace was once again a Phantom Menace – pulling the strings in multiple ways from the shadows till he was finally ready to reveal himself and take control.  

Looking back on this now – I’m not certain it was Snoke influencing Ben Solo from the womb – it may have been Palpatine.
I can’t remember where but I was really confused at one point (ha! What else is new?!) about how Snoke could have known that Ben Solo was Vader’s grandson & Leia was Vader’s daughter – when Ben Solo was still in Leia’s womb, because at that point only Luke, Leia and Han knew it. So how was it possible Snoke would know to target Leia’s unborn son for his Skywalker blood? I never did come up with an explanation for this.
Now, I wonder if the explanation was that Palpatine knew – and it was Palpatine trying to influence Ben Solo in the womb. Not Snoke.  

I dug up some quotes about Snoke and the big bad in that old thread too.. I’ll share them here:

Breznican, for Entertainment weekly, December, 17,2017 wrote:
“When I was working on the character of Kylo, I came to a place where I thought the most interesting thing would be to knock the shaky foundation out from under him at the beginning of this movie,” Johnson said. “By the end of this film, he’s gone from being a wannabe Vader to someone who is standing on his own feet as a complex villain taking the reins.”
Johnson also thought it would be “a really good setup going into the next movie.”
“But then the question is: What place would Snoke have at the end of that?” Johnson said. “That made me realize the most interesting thing would be to eliminate that dynamic between the ‘emperor’ and pupil, so that all bets are off going into the next one. That also led to the possibility of this dramatic turn in the middle, which could also be a really powerful connection point between Kylo and Rey.”  

source: http://ew.com/movies/2017/12/17/star-wars-last-jedi-spoilers-snoke-killed-theories/2/
snippets from his empire podcast on the last jedi with spoilers were mentioned in this article..

White, January 15, 2018\" wrote: "I like Snoke as a character as Andy (Serkis) plays him," the director clarifies. "He's delicious, evil and fun. But Kylo to me is where the interesting stuff is. And the notion of clearing the deck of the Vader/Emperor dynamic so that all bets are off in terms of how the villainy is going to play out, that to me seemed like a much more interesting thing. And it just seemed natural. If he had stopped in the middle of a scene and given a monologue, it would've stopped it dead in its tracks, and we would've cut it out in the editing room. This is not Snoke's story."

source: https://www.empireonline.com/movies/features/star-wars-last-jedi-10-revelations-director-rian-johnson/
-bolding is mine..

Yeah.. It’s not Snoke’s story.. it’s Palpatine’s haaa..

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:The Force flashing seems like an evolution of the Kylo and Rey Force connection where they could talk to each other across space. I would be really surprised if it wasn't relevant to the story in some way because it's a new power we've never seen before. It really can't just be window dressing, it's a little too specific for that. TLJ even had Kylo and Rey's interactions serve as foreshadowing to Luke using Force projection. Because it was explained via Kylo we knew exactly what was happening when Luke cast his presence onto Crait. I expect something similar here. It's either going to be a means through which they learn something about the past or foreshadowing to something later in the film.

@FrolickingFizzgig
I hope you're right, I suppose I can't help but feel cynical about JJ and fanservice. I really wouldn't put it past him to bring in this new force power for no other reason than serving a visually spectacular set piece that makes the fans go, "oooh look it's Mustafar! oooh look it's Tatooine!" You're right about TLJ, but JJ didn't write or direct it, and Rian overall handled the fanservice in a much more restrained and organic fashion.

@DeeBee

Thanks for tagging me on this DeeBee! Your post was awesome! With Palpatine as the potential  “big bad” of TROS, the true evil mastermind becomes more muddled. Is it Snoke or Palpatine who is the real threat...or a combination of both? Palpatine, for all we know, could be a red herring. Remember the trailers for Rogue One. The misdirections were so blatant. But, TBH, I don’t think it will be that simple.  TROS is bound to leave a few questions and open ended plot points for future storylines to draw from...

Now, with that said, we do know that Palpatine was vaguely aware of “a presence” (Snoke?) and that Snoke was aware of the goings on surrounding Palpatine and the rise/fall of the Repulblic/Empire. Now, the question is, who discovered who first...and who has/had the upper hand in this scenario? In the Rey Kenobi threads/and Snoke’s Ring thread (as mentioned above) I have speculated that Snoke may have been bound to a realm similar to that of The World Between Worlds as seen in Star Wars Rebels or his essence was bound to an object, like a Horcrux in Harry Potter. The Darksaber has been speculated to be that object (thank you @Starliteprism). Remember, Palpatine’s obsession with finding this “other” realm in SW Rebels. Also, in Rogue One, one of the secret plans Jyn found on Scarif was called “Black Saber”. Darksaber / Black Saber...

What if Palpatine was able to hide a part of himself in this “World Between Worlds”? Maybe even switching places with Snoke (using the Darksaber??? OMG, last we saw Bo-Katan had the Darksaber... I’m not sure of the implications for Mandalore, post Rebels, if this is the case...). Anyways, Palpatine would have to possess an object or something tangible to tether himself to his former plane of existence and bring himself back . The Death Star perhaps, from ROTJ, or another object/person? @spacebaby45678 suggested that Anakin, and therefore his progeny, might be that tether. If Palpatine did create the Skywalkers, as implied in ROTJ, it would make sense.

Now, what about Snoke doubled Palps with his contingency plan and made sure Palps could not fully come back. Snoke didn’t look like the type of guy to want to share power. That could give us a scene of Palps thanking Rey and Ben for clearing the deck for him.

In my headcanon, Palpatine created a masterful web of treachery to be executed in the event of his death at the hands of Darth Vader, with the goal of setting into motion a series of events which would cause the Skywalker family to be screwed up for generations. The purpose of that was sweet revenge of course, but also that Skywalker is a being who is destined to bring balance to the force in a way that would make it nearly impossible for dark side users like Palpatine to amass power. I think Snoke was part of that plan. I think Snoke is someone that is completely loyal to Palpatine, and completely on board with the plan to continue corrupting the Skywalkers, and willingly became Palaptine's backup plan, to be released from some sort of stasis and complete the mission. In this scenario, Snoke could be the survived Grand Inquisitor. I think that Ben Solo has the capability of being the chosen one and of reversing this corruption but needs Rey, the granddaughter of Obi-wan Kenobi, to do it.

That said, I know that Lucas' original ROTJ script had all kinds of crazy stuff in it including Obi-wan returning to corporeal form. And I know that Lucas created the Mortis arc and he loved that type of thing. And I know that JJ talked to Lucas in an attempt to figure out how to bring this whole saga to a conclusion. So I think we're going to get into some crazy s*** where Palpatine actually figured out some way to cheat death and control events and manipulate things to the point where he can inhabit another body, and perhaps he means for Kylo Ren to be that body. In that case, I could see Snoke being the Son of Mortis, saved from death by Palpatine, and somehow resurrected at the time of Palpatine's death. The Son of Mortis would have his own motivations to mess with the Skywalkers.

Either way, "The Rise of Skywalker" is prophesied by the Jedi to be some sort of force-balancing and sith-destroying event, but I think Palpatine either wants to prevent that or turn it on its head by turning the Rise of Skywalker into the ultimate triumph of the Sith. So, which Rise of Skywalker is it going to be?

Forgot two things -

The Emperor’s return doesn’t just complete the ST, it culminates the entire Saga as the original conniver whose ambitions damaged 3 generations of a family. It ties all 3 books/generations together

His return very swiftly answers the question what would’ve happened if Rey had chosen to accept Ben’s offer and stay with him? The assumption always was that it would’ve doomed the both of them, any potential relationship, and not been great for the Galaxy. Having the guy who manipulated another young couple (Ben’s grandparents no less) into a tragic end showing up on their doorstep would’ve been more of the same heartbreak. So her moment of virgin panic in the Throne Room ultimately was the right decision because otherwise she would’ve ended up like Padme.

@SanghaRen - yeah it's possible, from what I read of Snoke's POV in TLJ novelisation, I think he was not a big planner.. but what I know could be turned on it's head pretty easily!

@fuhry - yeah! sounds good! My thinking now is that when I compare Palaptine the ultimate plan within a plan Machiavellian forward thinker and Snoke the self confessed beneficiary of good fortune, improvisation and luck, I know which one I would choose to be pulling the strings behind everything!

@snufkin - I really like that Rey choose not to find her identity in being with Kylo Ren, instead she stepped up and became the hero she had been hoping to find in Luke, and Kylo. It will make for a more satisfying and healthy relationship between Rey and Ben when (I think) the time comes!
Yeah I think you are spot on.. to have said yes and taken up the offer would have led to tragedy.. it would have been grounded in selfishness and the dark side. So Palpatine probably would have loved that!

Thought I'd share this new JJ interview here.. as it's related to the emperor in TROS and the coming together of the Saga.
Found this on IGN. There's a video of the full interview HERE
Basically the interviewer asks why was it important for JJ to bring back the Emperor, in some capacity, in the Rise of Skywalker.
JJ says he can't directly address the specifics of that but..

JJ Abrams (in article by Yehl, 2019) wrote: “This movie had a very, very specific challenge, which was to take eight films and give an ending to three trilogies, and so we had to look at, what is the bigger story? We had conversations amongst ourselves, we met with George Lucas before writing the script,” Abrams revealed. “These were things that were in real, not debate, but looking at the vastness of the story and trying to figure out, what is the way to conclude this? But it has to work on its own as a movie, it has to be its own thing, it has to be surprising and funny and you have to understand it.”  

pretty cool! Sorry if this has already been shared and I missed it..

If Palpatine is really back in TROS, it makes sense that Palpatine was working in the background to build up the First Order under Snoke's rule - an evolved and improved version of the Empire (as the First Order propaganda claims). It makes sense Palpatine couldn't rebuild the empire with himself as the figure head because then the threat of the First Order would have been taken seriously by the galaxy and the FO would not have grown to the size it did, and it would not have been able to take the new republic by surprise. Stealth seemed to be key to the rise of the First Order. Or should I say - the rebirth or resurrection of the Empire [and there's that idea of rise/ rebirth/resurrection again].
Building power in secret before people can see what's going on - is what he did the first time around too.

So, when the time was right, Palpatine would have been planning to take his place as leader. I think Palpatine would have wanted the threat of Luke Skywalker eliminated too. Tricky part was - Luke cut himself off from the force for years, so neither Snoke nor Palpatine was going to be able to locate him using the force. Maybe this was one use for Kylo/Ben - he drew out Skywalker eventually.

I wonder where Kylo Ren fits into things.. Was Kylo Ren killing Snoke part of Palpatine's plan? Would Palpatine have been wanting Kylo Ren to become Supreme Leader? Or is this a change in Palpatine's plans that he had a contingency plan for?
The thread connecting the saga movies seems to be that Palpatine has manipulated the Skywalkers for their power. They are a target because they are a preferred instrument of the cosmic force - so it fits that Kylo/Ben will find out he too has been manipulated and used as a pawn.
I'm going to continue to ponder this one!

So what do you all think could have been Palpatine's plan for Kylo/Ben?

And... if Kylo/Ben is going to work together with Rey to defeat Palpatine - what is going to spark this wish to defeat Palpatine?
I hope it is more than just - he took away my supreme leader badge. lol.
For redemption it has to be something more altruistic than that.. anyone got ideas?

I could see Snoke being the Son of Mortis, saved from death by Palpatine, and somehow resurrected at the time of Palpatine's death. The Son of Mortis would have his own motivations to mess with the Skywalkers.
@fuhry

That would actually take care of the back story for Snoke quite nicely.



The Emperor’s return doesn’t just complete the ST, it culminates the entire Saga as the original conniver whose ambitions damaged 3 generations of a family. It ties all 3 books/generations together

@snufkin

Yes, exactly!!!

Anyways, Palpatine would have to possess an object or something tangible to tether himself to his former plane of existence and bring himself back . The Death Star perhaps, from ROTJ, or another object/person? @spacebaby45678 suggested that Anakin, and therefore his progeny, might be that tether. If Palpatine did create the Skywalkers, as implied in ROTJ, it would make sense.

@TheBastardofMandalore

Yes, I think think Palpatine is using the Skywalkers for their powers, which would mirror what Han said to Kylo in TFA.

Now as this is a 9 part Saga, Palpatine has always had a FOIL, and that was Obi Wan. They exist as a mirror to each other, what Obi did in the positive, Palpatine was able to accomplish in the negative. So Obi was able to preserve his spirit in the afterlife and it would seem that Palpy has been able to do the same on some level. Well if Palpy is back will his traditional foil Obi Wan also return? I would say it would HAVE to be. Eventhough, Pablo has confirmed that Sith cannot become a force ghost, and Palpy is confirmed as dead, Palpy's demon spirit hopping into a body or host like Snoke would seem a likely answer.  Pretty spooky but exciting!

@DeeBee If they're going with "Palpatine was behind it all" I doubt that Kylo killing Snoke was a part of his plan. If anything, it's more likely that Kylo becoming the Supreme Leader threw a wrench into Palpatine's plans and made him quite annoyed with our boy.

As for how he ends up working to defeat Palpatine, I think that it will be shaped by circumstances much like his decision to kill Snoke was. Looking at Kylo in general, there's IMO very little "planning" in his character period, he tends to react to things in the moment and is ruled by his emotions. Which is why BTW the notion of Kylo as a character with some patient long-term plan, which Jason among others seems to have, never made sense to me.

Agreed, Ben is repeatedly portrayed by the scripts as "too much of his father in him" and Han was somebody who flies by the seat of his pants. Granted Ben is slightly more methodical than his old man because he had Leia's home training. But I've read comments like "he had a master plan" (either as a double agent or from the fans who want so badly for him to be a straight up cold calculating villain) and my immediate thought is that anybody going into the next movie with either set of expectations will be disappointed. His arc is not headed in that direction. I've no doubt that he's known something shady has been lurking in the background, which he's going to have to tackle because they've hinted at it with all of his Space Hamlet moments in TFA and the Empire's End lines about "ancient eyes...as if he'd been waiting a thousand years to be born" and the child who's half pirate half princess is going to grow up to be a troublemaker. Also a big part (besides the painfully obvious immediate crush) of why he wants to be Rey's BFF. The Force has a bigger shared destiny for the two of them to tackle something very big together. But there's zero long con evidenced by his reaction to Snoke snickering about knowing that he was sneaking around with Rey. Rian said that he knew he was going to have to kill Snoke to save her and also becoming "the villain he thinks he should be."  But the schemer character with a 10 point plan for galactic domination is Hux, not Ben. Ben's an improviser like his father before him (also not kind to Imperial control panels)



Also if they're running with being his father's son, Han starts out "I ain't in this for your revolution, sweetheart, I'm in this for the money," and then immediately turns around to say "you think a girl like that and a guy like me?" and saves the day for the Rebels/the people he cares about.  Ben was almost there with Rey but then he blew it. So keep remembering the Kurosawa line about heroes and villains Kasdan keeps quoting - Ben thinks he's supposed to be a villain but he keeps changing/evolving/maturing and has another chapter to land on who he's supposed to be. When the Emperor shows up on his doorstep as the absentee landlord after thinking he was finally in charge (Qi'ra's line about "we won't have to take orders or get kicked around anymore.") is going to be a huge shock.

RE: the Emperor returning in some shape or form to bring home what the entire family saga is about -- LMAO every time I've read somebody bellyaching about how "JJ doesn't respect the prequels >:(!!!!" as part of JJ's list of high crimes* against pop culture. It's been obvious from the start that they're bringing in PT themes and parallels to the story. They had Luke's do an entire recap in the First Jedi Temple for that reason. Even just knowing the background of the OT's production and the original backstory Kasdan and Lucas had for Padme, that's the "complicated enemies" scenario set up by  TLJ's ending. Who knows where the Emperor is going to fit in with all of this, but he's obviously some type of angry spirit/ghost (or overstepping schemer like Krennic) plaguing one family for his own ambitions and consolidation of personal power. Last chapter is going to culminate and resolve it.

* guys did you know that Rian Johnson came up with Reylo all by himself and JJ doesn't know how to write romances because you only get to mention his TV shows if it's complaining about Lost?!  Sorry but the romances in Felicity and Fringe don't count because those weren't big pop culture tentpole moments you can hang your nerd cred on.

Saracene wrote:@DeeBee If they're going with "Palpatine was behind it all" I doubt that Kylo killing Snoke was a part of his plan. If anything, it's more likely that Kylo becoming the Supreme Leader threw a wrench into Palpatine's plans and made him quite annoyed with our boy.

As for how he ends up working to defeat Palpatine, I think that it will be shaped by circumstances much like his decision to kill Snoke was. Looking at Kylo in general, there's IMO very little "planning" in his character period, he tends to react to things in the moment and is ruled by his emotions. Which is why BTW the notion of Kylo as a character with some patient long-term plan, which Jason among others seems to have, never made sense to me.

@Saracene

Maybe Palpatine actually was building Kylo/Ben towards this his whole life if he was 'the one behind this from the beginning.'

Kylo/Ben was still split in-between Light and Dark, his conflict was there for everyone to see. To be that far gone to the Dark Side that he's worthy of following, being a host. If that theory about Palpatine possessing Snoke and others is true then Snoke was just means to an end... an end that requires someone strong in their abilities, right bloodline since Palpatine was obsessed with Skywalkers, someone committed to the Dark Side.

I'm more curious if Kylo knew about Palpatine on some level that there is a threat but couldn't put pieces together up until now.

The force created Anakin to bring balance and an end to the Sith. When Vader has the vision on Mustafar of Palpatine being responsible for manipulating the midi-chlorians which led to Shmi’s pregnancy, it’s a lie, a manifestation of his worse fears. Lies are part of what makes the Sith powerful, both in the lies they tell themselves to justify what they do and the lies they tell to others to manipulate them and spread distrust. From a certain point of view, it could be argued Palpatine was responsible for the creation of Anakin in so far as his birth was a reaction to the rise of the Sith. Darkness rises and light to meet it. All the best lies have an element of truth in them.

Anakin did fulfil the prophecy both through his own actions and his bloodline. Ben Solo will be the one to put a permanent end to Palpatine and break that particular cycle. I don’t see it establishing balance for all time, that is sort of impossible given the nature of life. But the threat Palpatine represents will be eliminated and the Skywalkers will fulfil their destiny. There will be balance and a chance to build a better galaxy once Palpatine/the Empire/First Order are destroyed for good. How long peace and balance lasts will depend on Lucasfilm’s future story plans.

One moment which I think is probably central to the ST and the entire Saga is Maz's monologue in the bar

The only fight. Against the dark side. Through the ages... I've seen evil take many forms. The Sith. The Empire. Today, it is the First Order. Their shadow is spreading across the galaxy. We must face them. Fight them. All of us.

IDK how many of you in the States watch Skip Gates' genealogy show, Finding Your Roots, but he did an episode with Lupita Nyong'o about her father's involvement in Kenya as an activist/political dissident (now politician). Her family went into exile in Mexico, where she was born, and then came back where he was arrested and detained for almost a month. But part of the larger theme covered for her family's story is about how the darker instincts towards power will always be there. You can't have a "war to end all wars," what you have to do is always be vigilant, stand against it when you see it, try to improve what's been given to you, and teach the generations who follow you this lesson so they can learn from it.

My thought has been that JJ didn't have Maz say those lines just because she's supposed to be a wise FS mentor type character. It actually holds some weight being spoken by a woman who's already lived through it and understands it. So the Emperor being the sort of character who represents the absolute worst, most selfish and darkest aspects of this side of human society/behavior, the challenge for the characters is to face that and not be defeated by it. Like I have no doubt it's also to do specifically with his role as manipulator of one family/their children to further his own selfish ambitions. But the larger theme will be there too and I suspect tie in with Ben's arc of "the difference between heroes and villains" and selfish versus selfless love.

Apologies for the DP but bumping b/c something which occurred to me finally seeing the Snyder Man of Steel* movie. It not bad but Donner's version and Christopher Reeves' performance will always be the classic. However the parts with Krypton are 100% influenced by the PT down to looking like Corusicant. But the plot with General Zod (who looks ridiculous compared to the Terrance Stamp version with his angry Mennonite haircut/soul patch), that's the type of antagonist the Emperor is. Beyond it fitting w/Lucas' original plan that the protagonist would face the Emperor in Episode 9, it makes him the type of eternal antagonist like Professor Moriarty, Blofeld, James Mason in North By Northwest, and General Zod. who is faced down by 2 generations. For the Saga movies, it's 3 generations of the same family standing between this antagonist (Obi-Wan's line about descendants being a threat to the Emperor) and his ambitions. Hell, they even teased it with Jyn and Orson/Lyra facing off against Krennic. But the Emperor is TROS is gonna be like General Zod returning to fulfill his ultimate ambitions.

* def made me think that Russell Crowe would've killed it as young Obi-Wan in a way Ewan McGregor just couldn't have. He even has a couple Force Ghost moments in the latter parts of the story.