Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors

Okay, things I picked up from the SciFi Now article:
The author's constant projecting of Kylo's evilness is kind of funny, especially when he speculates about the meaning of the title, suggesting an option would be hinting a redemption arc.
The repeated themes of not undoing anything, not being derailed by Rian, getting bolder/more creative/more improvisational especially in the direction, that JJ knew some if not all of what would happen in IX, by the nine movies being one coherent story.
People finally stopped talking about "satisfying" and are just being like, yeah, not everyone will like it, it's kind of inevitable, what can ya do. Glad they're being more honest.
Nice to see Rose on a cover of something, and Kelly quoted.
Oscar and Anthony wrapped on the same day, we possibly knew this before, but I forgot.
This isn't the first time JJ has said this is the hardest project he's worked on by far. I can't imagine what this would be like for a SW newbie, let alone a CT.
John wants to be in a Jordan Peele movie, make it happen world.
We've turned Daisy into a SW fan, she wants to watch Mandalorian!

Atenais wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:Just posting here because I was going over the really fascinating use of Gothic imagery being referenced in the remnants of the Empire in the ST (but especially in TROS). It's a pretty brilliant connection between the fallen Empire and a fallen Gothic castle or kingdom and the old dark (vampiric even) lord presiding over a dead land in his dead throne. We have moors, rain, ancient wrecks rising through the mist, ghost ships cracking through ice, broken glass windows meant to resemble a cathedral, dark and light interplay and Exogol itself seems to be streaked with constant lightning. This film will be very beautiful.

Images:

@FrolickingFizzgig

We can complain about this movie being a lot of thing, but not of being ugly. The scenarios, the imagery, the photography, everything looks so beautiful and poetic. I am so curious about the scene of the first picture. It's very interesting, how Rey is in the dark side, and how the light is showering Kylo/Ben. I ask myself if he will be already redeemed in this moment.

@Atenais

I am of the opinion, perhaps I am wrong, that Ben's redemption will begin in the 1st act of the movie. He made small steps in TLJ, the steps will begin to be bigger in Act 1 of TRoS, and then proceed to a phenomenal selfless sacrificial act in Act 3. Excited to find out if I am right or wrong! lol

spacebaby45678 wrote:

@spacebaby45678



Seductive First Order supreme leader Kylo Ren.

Article here.

Yeah, I do believe it’s very significant that Kylo is stepping into the light whilst Rey is shrouded by darkness in that shot. It’s a role reversal, and we haven’t seen that type of imagery so far with these two yet. In Star Wars, the light/dark symbolism always reveals a lot.

There is indeed a lot of gothic and horror elements as well (one of the words Daisy used to describe TROS was scary). I wouldn’t be surprised if there is a Body Horror aspect at play with Palpatine. Easily one of my favourite things about the ST is the gorgeous cinematography. They are some of the best looking blockbusters out there (TLJ, in particular). TFA was great to look at too, although there was some cheaper looking parts of that movie that you could tell were sets. JJ bringing in Paul Inglis, the Blade Runner 2049 art director was a seriously great move on his part. It seems Rian/Steve Yedlin really forced him to up his game. There’s also a massive scale to TROS that the previous ST movies were lacking. Much welcomed. One of my many grievances with the success of the MCU is that many other blockbusters and movies have adopted the same ugly, bland and formulaic concrete looking coat of paint. A recent movie that stood out was Joker (with an infinitely smaller budget than these Marvel movies, seriously they have no excuses) that movie was seriously gorgeous to look at.

Also, bringing this over from another thread:

Atenais wrote:
Are you glad that this adventure now comes to an end and you will never have to answer questions regarding “Star Wars” again?
Actually, I do not expect that people will stop asking me about “Star Wars”, be it in interviews or in the street. But I'm looking forward to being able to talk about these movies freely and without restraint for the first time in six years. So far, I always had to be extremely tight-lipped, simply to not reveal any secrets.

Source: kino, AdamDriverFiles, AudraHumbard

We’re FINALLY getting Adam’s in-depth thoughts on Kylo soon. Been waiting years for this. As many people have pointed out, his limited press was indeed due to his character being a walking spoiler. He’s bursting at the seams to impart the information he’s been holding back for years now Bodes very, very well, IMO. Doesn’t exactly track with “Never to be seen again,” does it?

Atenais wrote:

spacebaby45678 wrote:

@spacebaby45678



Seductive First Order supreme leader Kylo Ren.

Article here.

@Atenais


Yoda explained to Luke during his training on Dagobah that the Dark Side is not stronger, but just easier and more seductive.

the boy is easy and seductive..

Kylo Rey wrote:Yeah, I do believe it’s very significant that Kylo is stepping into the light whilst Rey is shrouded by darkness in that shot. It’s a role reversal, and we haven’t seen that type of imagery so far with these two yet. In Star Wars, the light/dark symbolism always reveals a lot.

There is indeed a lot of gothic and horror elements as well (one of the words Daisy used to describe TROS was scary). I wouldn’t be surprised if there is a Body Horror aspect at play with Palpatine. Easily one of my favourite things about the ST is the gorgeous cinematography. They are some of the best looking blockbusters out there (TLJ, in particular). TFA was great to look at too, although there was some cheaper looking parts of that movie that you could tell were sets. JJ bringing in Paul Inglis, the Blade Runner 2049 art director was a seriously great move on his part. It seems Rian/Steve Yedlin really forced him to up his game. There’s also a massive scale to TROS that the previous ST movies were lacking. Much welcomed. One of my many grievances with the success of the MCU is that many other blockbusters and movies have adopted the same ugly, bland and formulaic concrete looking coat of paint. A recent movie that stood out was Joker (with an infinitely smaller budget than these Marvel movies, seriously they have no excuses) that movie was seriously gorgeous to look at.

Also, bringing this over from another thread:

Atenais wrote:
Are you glad that this adventure now comes to an end and you will never have to answer questions regarding “Star Wars” again?
Actually, I do not expect that people will stop asking me about “Star Wars”, be it in interviews or in the street. But I'm looking forward to being able to talk about these movies freely and without restraint for the first time in six years. So far, I always had to be extremely tight-lipped, simply to not reveal any secrets.

Source: kino, AdamDriverFiles, AudraHumbard

We’re FINALLY getting Adam’s in-depth thoughts on Kylo soon. Been waiting years for this. As many people have pointed out, his limited press was indeed due to his character being a walking spoiler. He’s bursting at the seams to impart the information he’s been holding back for years now :lol: Bodes very, very well, IMO. Doesn’t exactly track with “Never to be seen again,” does it?

@Kylo Rey

Oh that  one image of the two of them facing one another in the trailer with her being encroached on by shadows while the light is hitting him dead center - definitely meant to contrast all the scenes in the previous movies where she's in the light and he's in the dark/shadows. Especially how the art team for TFA and JJ both said the lighting in the Bridge Scene was meant to show "the Darkside making the choice."

It's been years since the original topic of the Gothic Romance/Horror genre was brought up here in response to the ST. But that imagery makes me think we're getting something along the lines of Crimson Peak. Which not for nothing, JJ's the person who gave the speech for GdT's star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, they share some common film nerd interests.  The Death Star is a haunted house for Ben's family in a lot of ways, the same way that Rey entering the MF and Ache-to opened up answers to other hidden secrets/traumas from his family. In terms of the Darkness imagery around her, I'm more on the side that given how the ST has treated the characters with more psychological complexity/depth, that it's not going to be a shocking reveal/secret about her parents. But rather further exploring/finding catharsis for the pain/trauma she bottled up inside of herself in order to survive her family tragedy and life on Jakku. That pain in turn will likely make her vulnerable to whatever this new form of the Emperor has planned for the final act, like a vampire ready to feast on that dark/negative energy.

As another aside for the Gothic Horror imagery, Lucas obvs was a Hammer Horror fan given his casting of Peter Cushing and Christopher Lee. When they announced Paul Inglis as the supervising art director, the question was would there be some type of visual dystopia given his credits for BR2049 and Children of Men (and counter to everything KK has said about the Saga being an antidote to 1970s and current era darkness in pop culture)? But it looks like it's instead going in this direction instead. Which definitely give credit to Rian and Steven Yedlin's cinematography/color scheme for inspiring JJ to take it further for the finale. Hoping from the Dark Rey imagery that we're going to get even more nods to Powell and Pressburger since TLJ drew on Black Narcissus, The Red Shoes, and Tales of Hoffmann for the Ache-to and Throne Room scenes.

@Kylo Rey
Yes, I agree very much. Star Wars - and the ST in particular - has always been heavy-handed in its use of light and dark symbolism. We obviously don't have mid-shots of the characters in that scene yet, but Ben is standing with his face illuminated by the streaks of light while Rey is backed into the shadows with her blade ignited. It's obvious what's going on in this scene. He is here to stop her from following the trail of breadcrumbs to its end because he knows what's lying in wait for her. He has been in her position with Snoke.

This is going to be a huge part of Kylo's arc in TROS and the contrast to Rey slowly becoming darker and crumpling into the secrets and conspiracy of her origins. I posted that Snoke scene before but it's always worth remembering - "darkness rises and light to meet it" is the core theme of Rey and Kylo's relationship. This time it's darkness rising in Rey and light rising in Ben to meet it.

@Snufkin
We have briefly discussed this but the sci-fi Gothic horror imagery makes me wonder if Rey "Palpatine's granddaughter" is being misunderstood to some small degree. I totally believe that it's something Palpatine says, but I have so much trouble buying that Palpatine would ever physically conceive a child. He's barely alive/half dead/undead and sustaining himself in a rather vampiric manner. It makes much more sense to me that Rey is the "monster" to Palpatine's modern Prometheus.

@FrolickingFizzgig Rey's costume definitely has the Bride of Frankenstein's arm wrappings! I tend to think that the monstrousness explored will be through the resolution of Ben's arc given all the "creature/monster" dialogue around him in their face-offs. Also if they continue with the ST's themes around the feminine in contrast to the masculine, we'll see Rey definitely face off against bad guys like the Emperor who don't understand/underestimate/despite that quality. Already happened with Snoke and his entire MO of trying to draw on/tamper the literal force of Life (which is what Rey's monologue during her first lesson is about) is in opposition to that. Also my total wish list given the Powell and Pressburger influence on that the ST, but a central part of movies like Black Narcissus and The Red Shoes, or even Gone to Earth (Rey resembles Hazel somewhat) is the young woman at the center of the story battling against larger masculine forces/characters trying to contain her wildness and make it conform.

If it ain't a 10-page spread here!























Mention of a "loose plan" for the trilogy. Again the emphasizing TLJ didn't throw anything off course, and they're not undoing anything. Kelly says the relationship with Finn evolved in a "really interesting" way. Anthony calls JJ a genius. Billy Dee says Lando gets more depth. Daisy says just now does she understand Maz's line about how Rey's past is not behind her, but ahead.

The line she picks  just does not fit in with "NeVah 2 b SeEn AgAIn". Does it?

What belonging and family is there if none of them are left to belong to? Unless it just means the name. But belonging is not the same as setting off all by yourself at the end of and movie.

The last thing as well. It needs to not possibly be able to continue. It has to tie in with everything. Ben dead forever..its so painfull. It doesnt seem to be matching with what she is saying.

Also..look at his SW roll out...baby Ben...this dude is not staying gone. Kids stories are often the most telling, basic and clear...baby frickin  Ben Solo. They dont portray him as Kylo. Its baby Ben with his storm troopers.

californiagirl wrote:If it ain't a 10-page spread here!

@californiagirl


wow, I'm impressed, JJ was willing to scrap the plot point of his own film because his dear friend Ridley didn't like it. Now I know where the whole idea of Rey taking the Skywalker last name like it was a trophy came from, lmao.

@OrionStars

I knew someone would be salty about that, and I don't blame you, the way it's phrased leaves space for that kind of interpretation. I also didn't like this constant mention of fluidity, experimenting, changing dialogue, throwing things and watch what would stick... The interview with Chris Terrio, IIRC, also mentions JJ playing around. I hope they went through changes together (JJ with Terrio), because this doesn't bode too well for the consistency of vision in terms of the story, its crucial beats and repercussions. Hopefully the search for good effects on the screen, bringing out chemistry, humor, emotion (seductively? superficially?), won't get in the way of the story they intended to tell in the script writing phase.

MaddieDove wrote:@OrionStars

I knew someone would be salty about that, and I don't blame you, the way it's phrased leaves space for that kind of interpretation. I also didn't like this constant mention of fluidity, experimenting, changing dialogue, throwing things and watch what would stick... The interview with Chris Terrio, IIRC, also mentions JJ playing around. I hope they went through changes together (JJ with Terrio), because this doesn't bode too well for the consistency of vision in terms of the story, its crucial beats and repercussions. Hopefully the search for good effects on the screen, bringing out chemistry, humor, emotion (seductively? superficially?), won't get in the way of the story they intended to tell in the script writing phase.

@MaddieDove

Yeah, everyone knows Ridley is JJ's best friend, and to be honest, I didn't joke when I said before that JJ was back to worship the ground Ridley walked on and Ridley knew it so she was cried out in happiness when they rehired JJ.  I just didn't expect that Ridley could say it out loud for the media that JJ was catering to her personal demands   and he was willing to do anything for her to the point that he changed the plot because she didn't like it and  something was discarded because she simply said "that sh*t won't be happening"

Yeah, I generally don’t like actors having that kind of power over story (although, if it was something like her voicing opposition to Rey stabbing Kylo when he feels his mother die, not going to lie, I wouldn’t object there...). They’re there to act, not write. And improv is a risky game to play, because it only works with certain actors (comedy-wise, Robin Williams would be the best example I can think of; you couldn’t restrain a mind like his to a verbatim script). I wouldn’t think JJ let them go on a Robin-esque tear and changed a bunch around to accommodate it, but the mere thought of a bunch of this done on the fly by the seat of their pants approach makes me nervous, to be honest. Whatever was axed due to Daisy’s objection, I really hope it was actually bad for the story and not a case of JJ came around to that opinion just because she thought so. The latter is a bad way to run a film.

I do agree with you @Gemini that the Maz line doesn’t really fit with a dead Ben in the end. They’re hammering home that Rey doesn’t feel she fits in with the non-Force Resistance members, even if they are her friends, dear friends in cases like Finn. Daisy’s mentioned it, the trailer has Rey outright saying it basically. Kylo/Ben is the one who understands her, and if he dies, that leaves a hole for her. Grandpa Palpy, Force ghosts visitation, and/or a name change, none of that really fits with Maz’ line from TFA. Her belonging in the truest sense is with redeemed Ben. I suppose JJ could go a meta route and say her belonging is in the peace she finds in finally understanding her place in the story and how she saves the galaxy and presumably restarts the Order herself, but that’s cheesy even for Star Wars, IMO. Plus, she’s still alone. You can be surrounded by people, but still feel alone.

I'm not seeing the part where JJ changed "the plot", just one idea that JJ seemed to agree wasn't very good or in-character when she addressed it with him. Also there has always been this whole "dialogue is fluid" thing with JJ. He isn't as strict about everything as Rian. Again, this was a comparison made between them during the TLJ press run. It doesn't mean he changed the entire story, just that he was always willing to listen to different ways to approach scenes or lines.

I also agree that Daisy referencing Maz's line as the whole key to Rey's story arc goes against "never to be seen again", but again, I'm so unconcerned about "never to be seen again" that it takes someone reminding me of it for me to laugh roll my eyes.

A director listening to their actors and responding to feedback is a great quality to have and I see that both John and Daisy really appreciated that this time around. I am glad that they seem to be pleased and happy about the result.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:Exogol is clearly heavily inspired by that classic image of lightning striking the crumbling Gothic castle out of Shelly Frankenstein:







Palpatine is even going to be in some kind of twisted life support machine likely looking like something out of a classic horror film.

@FrolickingFizzgig

well JJ had said in TFA that it looks like a fairy tale, where there is Cinderella and the prince.
@Gemini
from all this I expect a final of screams, if they say they have cried, from me a waterfall of tears will come out hehe, I like to think that Rey will see Ben coming from afar while she is on Tatooine, the same dynamics of pride and prejudice.
that would be the top. Maybe Rey is convinced that he is died, does not feel him during their bond ...
so much stuff if they make a final like that !!!!

Do you know what’s weird? I’m just getting that Maz line, “The belonging you seek is not behind you... it is ahead.” That one came to mind.

— Daisy, when asked by Total Film Magazine to choose a line that would be the key to Rey’s story going forward

spacebaby45678 wrote:A director listening to  their actors and responding to feedback is a great quality to have and I see that both John and Daisy really appreciated that this time around. I am glad that they seem to be pleased and happy about the result.

@spacebaby45678

It is a good quality to have. I've worked with different people and directors, some who listen and allow actors to have some creative input. It tends to create a much more pleasant set to work on. However, when you let the actors have too much leeway it can also cause huge problems with consistency of performance from the actors to the point where it's like the character is different people in each scene.  Because it's in post it's too late lol(Unless reshoots). I'm sure/hoping there is a fine balance going on. It's the same in any line of work, if a person feels respected and heard, they dont mind if the boss still makes the final call and says no, it's all about being listened to not always about getting ones way.

I know most actors I've spoken with have said they like to have some small amount of adlibbing and input into scenes. Most dont like being told exactly what to do  and it shows in their performance. I once worked with a great actor from a feature film but because the director was letting him do whatever and not actually giving him direction in a scene,  his performance was totally flat and the director realised in post. Fine balance needed.

It seems like it was something both JJ and Daisy ended up agreeing on? It would mean JJ was possibly not 100% sure on whatever action it was that he had Rey doing in the first place?

I'll tell you what the most  almighty clash usually is, its between the frickin director and the Director of Photography.  But that's a different kettle of fish

Daisy's interviews are messy and confusing. It was a lot of clearer with TLJ and TLJ had much more high guarded spoilers. Daisy's high satisfaction without knowing the context doesn't look hopeful as Daisy is generally not very insightful and never gave an impression that she is good with Star Wars or storytelling or filmmaking. I don't think that other actors (including Driver) are better with it but the thing is that they actually don't focus so much on getting what they personally wanted or being that satisfied with the movie.

JJ's famous improvisation and "actor asked me" already brought us completely changed and unearned dynamic between Rey and Finn (which messed their characteristics as individuals) and Poe who brings nothing to the bigger story and isn't that enjoyable on screen to sacrifice Finn's position for this. These "rewrites just before scene" sound scary, I hope it was CT was doing rewrites as JJ is weak and lazy writer for rewriting the last film from nine-chapters-multigenerational Saga in his hotel room after shooting day.

@special_cases

I sometimes wonder if the reason she appears  inconsistent when it comes to Reylo,  is because she means Reylo as it is before Ben Solo has returned to her at the end of act 3?

Ben solo returning is most likely the twist she cant talk about but she can talk about where the characters are at when the movie starts? Both in a bit of emotional turmoil? Clashing?

I dunno.

Gemini wrote:

spacebaby45678 wrote:A director listening to  their actors and responding to feedback is a great quality to have and I see that both John and Daisy really appreciated that this time around. I am glad that they seem to be pleased and happy about the result.

@spacebaby45678

It is a good quality to have. I've worked with different people and directors, some who listen and allow actors to have some creative input. It tends to create a much more pleasant set to work on. However, when you let the actors have too much leeway it can also cause huge problems with consistency of performance from the actors to the point where it's like the character is different people in each scene.  Because it's in post it's too late lol(Unless reshoots). I'm sure/hoping there is a fine balance going on. It's the same in any line of work, if a person feels respected and heard, they dont mind if the boss still makes the final call and says no, it's all about being listened to not always about getting ones way.

I know most actors I've spoken with have said they like to have some small amount of adlibbing and input into scenes. Most dont like being told exactly what to do  and it shows in their performance. I once worked with a great actor from a feature film but because the director was letting him do whatever and not actually giving him direction in a scene,  his performance was totally flat and the director realised in post. Fine balance needed.

It seems like it was something both JJ and Daisy ended up agreeing on? It would mean JJ was possibly not 100% sure on whatever action it was that he had Rey doing in the first place?

I'll tell you what the most  almighty clash usually is, its between the frickin director and the Director of Photography.  But that's a different kettle of fish

@Gemini

ok... I agree to a point.. I think the difference is when the director is the writer... Ryan Coogler was both co writer and director of Black Panther and I know one of the actors objected to something and he changed it... he was all in for feedback especially since the writers where both men and a lot of feedback came from the actresses..

spacebaby45678 wrote:

Gemini wrote:

spacebaby45678 wrote:A director listening to  their actors and responding to feedback is a great quality to have and I see that both John and Daisy really appreciated that this time around. I am glad that they seem to be pleased and happy about the result.

@spacebaby45678

It is a good quality to have. I've worked with different people and directors, some who listen and allow actors to have some creative input. It tends to create a much more pleasant set to work on. However, when you let the actors have too much leeway it can also cause huge problems with consistency of performance from the actors to the point where it's like the character is different people in each scene.  Because it's in post it's too late lol(Unless reshoots). I'm sure/hoping there is a fine balance going on. It's the same in any line of work, if a person feels respected and heard, they dont mind if the boss still makes the final call and says no, it's all about being listened to not always about getting ones way.

I know most actors I've spoken with have said they like to have some small amount of adlibbing and input into scenes. Most dont like being told exactly what to do  and it shows in their performance. I once worked with a great actor from a feature film but because the director was letting him do whatever and not actually giving him direction in a scene,  his performance was totally flat and the director realised in post. Fine balance needed.

It seems like it was something both JJ and Daisy ended up agreeing on? It would mean JJ was possibly not 100% sure on whatever action it was that he had Rey doing in the first place?

I'll tell you what the most  almighty clash usually is, its between the frickin director and the Director of Photography.  But that's a different kettle of fish

@Gemini

ok... I agree to a point.. I think the difference is when the director is the writer... Ryan Coogler was both co writer and director of Black Panther and I know one of the actors objected to something and he changed it... he was all in for feedback especially since the writers where both men and a lot of feedback came from the actresses..

@spacebaby45678

Fair point. I guess it differes with different movies and directors.  Think it also depends on the actors/ peoples diva levels as well. My friend worked with both( EDIT name removed) and Alicia  Vikander on two different projects. Both were given free reign on the projects .. I bet you can guess which was a more pleasant experience on set for them lol.

Anyhow, back to topic. In general. I think it's a good idea to listen to actors. I agree about the working balance being needed. I'm hoping it was a fine balance on the set of TROS.

JJ is well-known for changing stuff as he goes, especially with this movie, that's not exactly news. Nor is he the only director that does this. The amount of hostility and lack or respect or trust of Daisy is troubling. I mentioned this just a few days ago, we revel in her unhappiness as a some barometer of quality. Consider both Rian and JJ ignored all of Mark's ideas, because they were all, well, bad. There's no indication he changed the whole movie for her, that would stand in contrast to most of the other things they've said. Nor has she ever seemed to place much value on Rey's parentage, she was surprised at the obsession after TFA, and was so over it before TLJ even came out, why would she want the Skywalker name? She didn't like one thing, and somehow we've made a crisis out of it.

To take another big movie, Taika Waititi claimed 90% of the dialogue in his Thor movie was improvised. That doesn't mean the entire film changed with it.