Ben's Childhood

ZioRen wrote:@panki

Fair enough. I just don't see it happening quite that way. I don't think the massacre happened so recently, nor Luke's subsequent disappearance. Not from the way everyone was talking about it.

panki wrote:

ZioRen wrote:@panki

Fair enough. I just don't see it happening quite that way. I don't see the massacre happening so recently, nor Luke's subsequent disappearance. Not from the way everyone was talking about it.

@ZioRen

I understand you might have a different view.... all I am trying to do is give a possible scenario based on the books I read and the clues we have got so far.... I could always be wrong...but at least for now, my scenario is a plausible one.

motherofpearl1 wrote:Whatever happened at the Temple - the Padawans were armed. Which means it was more than likely a fight rather than a slaughter re. RoTS.

But something really bad happened to Ben Solo, because why else would Rey go from seeing him as a monster to refusing to kill him. And if Luke does blow up the hut - just what is he so concerned about Kylo telling Rey?

snufkin wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

snufkin wrote:

panki wrote:@ZioRen

Ben might have been captured during one of the early missions of the resistance (Poe literally goes from one mission to the next with barely any break), hence the need to leave him behind and keep the resistance's involvement a secret....that would still allow at least 4-5 years for Kylo to be a prisoner of the FO, turn to the dark side and return for the temple burning incident. (The events of TFA occurred over 2 days.....4-5 years is a lifetime in the SW universe)

@panki

They've already said that what happened is not that he was a Bad Seed, that he had a target on his back. Something has to have occurred both with the Jedi and the New Republic that shook his faith in those systems that was bad enough for him to feel (other quote) that following Snoke and the FO is the right thing to do. The family dysfunction is at the heart of it, but there has to have been something that felt like a complete betrayal, both on a personal and political/spiritual level. And that betrayal in turn would be enough to gain Rey's sympathy and shake the audience mindset that Jedi/NR are without blame in what has occurred (and in turn that she has reason to be sympathetic towards him).

@snufkin

Right. The bolded is why I'm fairly sure that there had to have been a concrete incident where Ben was betrayed/abandoned by his family. The already-existing dysfunction and possibly getting sent off to Luke would have laid the groundwork for Ben to react the way he did, but I think there was more to the story than Han and Leia not being around enough.

Rey had a concrete incident of abandonment, when she was left on Jakku. I expect Ben/Kylo to have experienced something of a similar magnitude that will mirror Rey's abandonment in some way.

@ISeeAnIsland

Yeah that's why my guess is that whatever guilty secret or darkness Luke is harboring has to be tied to whatever happened to Ben. They're family and he was entrusted to look after/guide his sister's only child. So the betrayal has to be personal, more than just Mom & Dad neglected him or that he was a spoiled brat who wanted power. It could even be scenario where Snoke was the only safe place for him to go.

Rey's started to finally admit that she spent all her life waiting in vain and "we'll come back for you" may have been empty words. Maz forced that to happen. So if she's not stuck on a remote island planet with only two other people, she can't outrun that realization anymore. It's going to hit her. And she'll know better than anybody else the emotions he went through.

guardienne wrote:
@snufkin

i think it's significant that nothing has seemingly happened to him, no one has suspected anything about him in any way... other than he needed to be with luke because 'too much vader'.

but otherwise he was loved. he was seen as a good person.

so, the betrayal must have happened absolutely whilst he was with luke. and it must involve luke significantly for luke to be disappearing like this.

in achilles' story in the iliad, achilles is a good person, someone who cares about his troops, someone who is responsible. first he is betrayed by agamemnon when agamemnon denies him his prize of honour (briseis), then he loses his best friend patroclos. both of these combined mean his focus becomes very narrowed and he goes on a killing rampage and loses his humanity.

i don't think ben's backstory is the iliad word for word at all, but the idea that he nothing but a good person is what brings on the tragedy. and to think that snoke must have presented the better option, means the betrayal would have had to be significant.

guardienne wrote:@snufkin i think we have so far had very little indication that he wasn't a good kid, yes. i think at the moment snoke having manipulated him pretty much forever and also leia kinda knowing and han suspecting something but finding it easier to distance himself...

well, i don't know the answers either.

because he must have been older when he turned to snoke, and snoke probably being known to him and his family, i suspect that his motivation was more adult... and i totally think luke let him down. i just do wonder how much you can deconstruct luke as a character because he seems kind and patient and stuff. i do think not being able to talk about vader must have been difficult once he senses what his nephew is capable of?

snufkin wrote:

guardienne wrote:@snufkin i think we have so far had very little indication that he wasn't a good kid, yes. i think at the moment snoke having manipulated him pretty much forever and also leia kinda knowing and han suspecting something but finding it easier to distance himself...

well, i don't know the answers either.

because he must have been older when he turned to snoke, and snoke probably being known to him and his family, i suspect that his motivation was more adult... and i totally think luke let him down. i just do wonder how much you can deconstruct luke as a character because he seems kind and patient and stuff. i do think not being able to talk about vader must have been difficult once he senses what his nephew is capable of?

@guardienne

I'm really curious both about what happened with Luke and also how all of the OT purist fans who think Luke is the best (he was my least favorite character) are going to react to whatever the story is. But I think that has to be part of why he's in exile, because he screwed up in a major way.

Oooh, I'm glad someone else thinks that too! Luke drove me mad being whiny and petulant for two movies, then became sanctimonious in the third. I much preferred Han and Leia.

guardienne wrote:@snufkin i think we have so far had very little indication that he wasn't a good kid, yes. i think at the moment snoke having manipulated him pretty much forever and also leia kinda knowing and han suspecting something but finding it easier to distance himself...

well, i don't know the answers either.

because he must have been older when he turned to snoke, and snoke probably being known to him and his family, i suspect that his motivation was more adult... and i totally think luke let him down. i just do wonder how much you can deconstruct luke as a character because he seems kind and patient and stuff. i do think not being able to talk about vader must have been difficult once he senses what his nephew is capable of?

@sacrebleu i would like the radicalisation narrative but i think it's too extreme for star wars. and i'd like the idea of kylo walking to snoke because snoke has something he genuinely wants (that may have to do with vader, innit) and also because snoke seems like the genuinely better alternative ... and i don't think that's because snoke tells him lies. i think he is telling him a truth as well. i think even though the dark side is a lot of effort for kylo to keep up as an evil persona, he wants this. and in a twisted catholic way he probably thinks the more effort it costs him, the better.

guardienne wrote:@sacrebleu - it's been done



i agree it will be two-fold. if you think about luke and he might have come away from this half-story of his father's fall and rise and such, it's an immense thing to process. and he is being lied to along the way as well by his mentors. so, how does he orient himself? and what does it mean to set up a new jedi order by yourself if your knowledge is so patchy?

Sacrebleu wrote:

guardienne wrote:@snufkin i think we have so far had very little indication that he wasn't a good kid, yes. i think at the moment snoke having manipulated him pretty much forever and also leia kinda knowing and han suspecting something but finding it easier to distance himself...

well, i don't know the answers either.

because he must have been older when he turned to snoke, and snoke probably being known to him and his family, i suspect that his motivation was more adult... and i totally think luke let him down. i just do wonder how much you can deconstruct luke as a character because he seems kind and patient and stuff. i do think not being able to talk about vader must have been difficult once he senses what his nephew is capable of?

@sacrebleu i would like the radicalisation narrative but i think it's too extreme for star wars. and i'd like the idea of kylo walking to snoke because snoke has something he genuinely wants (that may have to do with vader, innit) and also because snoke seems like the genuinely better alternative ... and i don't think that's because snoke tells him lies. i think he is telling him a truth as well. i think even though the dark side is a lot of effort for kylo to keep up as an evil persona, he wants this. and in a twisted catholic way he probably thinks the more effort it costs him, the better.

@guardienne

My sense is that this part ideological and larger part family dynamics.  In a way TFA was hampered by the ending of ROTJ.  I didn't care much for ROTJ and think it would have been better to have a more ambiguous, bittersweet ending than the happily-ever-after they decided on.  I mean, there has been enormous tragedy in that family.  You can't just toss all that into the abyss along with Palpatine's body.  The effects on the family will linger, probably for generations.

You know, I've thought before that Kylo's clothing resembles a monsignor's robes.  Including that wide belt I kept saying I didn't like.  Hmmm.....

guardienne wrote:from reading about intergenerational trauma, unprocessed trauma can take many forms in the next generation. it's interesting to translate this into star wars as a concept. would ben have been able to feel the unprocessed trauma in his parents? would he have felt the potential resentment they felt towards the force? the fear?

anyway, here's the quotes from jonathan shay 'achilles in vietnam'... it's especially interesting because he draws a parallel between army and family.



themis is what shay translates as 'what's right' - he pretty much spends the book talking about this so i feel like i can't sum this up easily. i think one reason i love him as a writer so much is that he isn't afraid of bringing morals into his discussion. essentially, eeven though we go to war, there are rules and they can be violated by the leadership, by the enemy, and these things still count.

themis on wikipedia

I have a friend who works in worldwide humanitarian aid and who, among other things, did social reintegration work with former child soldiers. The first thing she said after seeing The Force Awakens, was that she was now baffled as to why she kept seeing Kylo Ren reduced on Tumblr to the bad punchline of overused, idiotic ‘emo teenager’ jokes or the subject of vitriolic rants against white men, when he hit every single marker of childhood abuse and grooming from an early age to be a weapon for a cause.  
Notes:
LRA - The Lord’s Resistance Army (LRA), also known as the Lord’s Resistance Movement, is a rebel group and cult which has operated in northern Uganda, South Sudan, the Central African Republic and the Democratic Republic of the Congo. It has been accused of widespread human rights violations, including murder, abduction, mutilation, child-sex slavery, and forcing children to participate in hostilities.(source)

Person a: finally watched star wars. Confused a bit. Wasn’t kylo ren supposed to be a whiny crybaby? Why is he instead a brainwashed child soldier?

I mean I saw him and Finn as remarkably similar, the whole thing is an LRA allergory and I was just the whole –

“only ppl who haven’t done anything wrong are worthy of living” and I was just – dude, actual child soldiers exist in actual – reality, what the hell.

One of the main issues with the LRA’s – and also Boko Haram – abduction of children is that their communities won’t accept them back bc they know they’ve killed. Reuniting child soldiers – whether they’re still kids or if they’re grown with their families is such a difficult thing bc although the families want them back, they want their child back, not a solider.

Person b: - to some extent pushed by trauma and abuse to do the things they did. In Kylo’s case, I think you’re right, and he’s very similar to Finn, to the point you could argue it was FINN who caused Kylo’s breakdown to start, bc he saw this brainwashed kid fight back against his conditioning and started wondering, again, whether he was doing the right thing or not himself. That ‘traitor!’ he yelled at him wasn’t exactly the most impersonal of things. Plus, there is A LOT of clues about Kylo’s past, and the fact that Snoke had already started ‘grooming’ him when he was a child. It’s literally canon.

guardienne wrote:@snufkin thanks so much for sharing. i love this on a graphic novel level already.. have you ever read joe sacco? he's done some graphic novel reporting thing as well.

@bastilabey i remember the initial spat! within this discussion i would like to question why the jedi train children so early in the use of weapons. this always seemed fishy to me. not practice sabres, actual light sabres. why was this important? was this part of what luke did? train an army of new jedi? and for what purpose?

i'm not sure i buy kylo ren as a child soldier, although given the jedi propensity to do that, it may actually be the case. i understand part of his corruption being the dark side itself? and part of it is i think a betrayal from luke's side.

i don't know much about child soldiers and i wouldn't like to get into the hot water of discussing that much at all. except of course to think that the trauma adults experience who have presumably agreed to join, how much worse is this if it's based on coercion.