Ben's Childhood

I picked up the 2017 Star Wars annual, and it expresses how Ben came under Snoke's influence in an interesting way: "He trains with his uncle, Luke Skywalker, but this ends in disaster as he falls under the spell of the evil Supreme Leader Snoke. After killing the next generation of Jedi, Ben takes the name Kylo Ren and serves the First Order."

i saw you post that @nonesuch and i did wonder at the explicitness of it all. so he killed everyone because snoke told him to?

Stealing this from Spoiler Thread but this young girl gives me total Ben vibe:

nonesuch wrote:I picked up the 2017 Star Wars annual, and it expresses how Ben came under Snoke's influence in an interesting way: "He trains with his uncle, Luke Skywalker, but this ends in disaster as he falls under the spell of the evil Supreme Leader Snoke. After killing the next generation of Jedi, Ben takes the name Kylo Ren and serves the First Order."

@nonesuch

there's got to be something more to it. something more shocking

Well, they aren't going to reveal anything dramatic until the film's released, of course. All this does is repeat what we have already been told in TFA.
I'm particularly intrigued by that source who mentioned Kylo was 'abducted' and 'indoctrinated' into the Knights of Ren - a lot of spoilers are rubbish,but this was a source whose other revelations - Han's death, Luke not making an appearance until the end - proved true.

I know I really want Kylo to be redeemed, but I can't help but think that he's so obviously set up as 'the big bad' of TFA that there is going to be a huge twist in Ep VIII that will show him in a different light.

nonesuch wrote:I picked up the 2017 Star Wars annual, and it expresses how Ben came under Snoke's influence in an interesting way: "He trains with his uncle, Luke Skywalker, but this ends in disaster as he falls under the spell of the evil Supreme Leader Snoke. After killing the next generation of Jedi, Ben takes the name Kylo Ren and serves the First Order."

@nonesuch

motherofpearl1 wrote:Well, they aren't going to reveal anything dramatic until the film's released, of course. All this does is repeat what we have already been told in TFA.
I'm particularly intrigued by that source who mentioned Kylo was 'abducted' and 'indoctrinated' into the Knights of Ren - a lot of spoilers are rubbish,but this was a source whose other revelations - Han's death, Luke not making an appearance until the end - proved true.

I know I really want Kylo to be redeemed, but I can't help but think that he's so obviously set up as 'the big bad' of TFA that there is going to be a huge twist in Ep VIII that will show him in a different light.

@motherofpearl1

That source was from an old article for TFA that @panki found. It sounds like Ben's/Kylo's backstory got moved to VIII, perhaps, if there's still truth in that rumor.

I'm wondering if there might have been a scenario where Ben was kidnapped by the KoR from Luke's group, indoctrinated, and then came back and carried out the massacre of the remaining students. I still think that there's probably more of a twist to the story than that, but even something that basic sets him up in a more sympathetic light than what was shown in TFA.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

nonesuch wrote:I picked up the 2017 Star Wars annual, and it expresses how Ben came under Snoke's influence in an interesting way: "He trains with his uncle, Luke Skywalker, but this ends in disaster as he falls under the spell of the evil Supreme Leader Snoke. After killing the next generation of Jedi, Ben takes the name Kylo Ren and serves the First Order."

@nonesuch

motherofpearl1 wrote:Well, they aren't going to reveal anything dramatic until the film's released, of course. All this does is repeat what we have already been told in TFA.
I'm particularly intrigued by that source who mentioned Kylo was 'abducted' and 'indoctrinated' into the Knights of Ren - a lot of spoilers are rubbish,but this was a source whose other revelations - Han's death, Luke not making an appearance until the end - proved true.

I know I really want Kylo to be redeemed, but I can't help but think that he's so obviously set up as 'the big bad' of TFA that there is going to be a huge twist in Ep VIII that will show him in a different light.

@motherofpearl1

That source was from an old article for TFA that @panki found. It sounds like Ben's/Kylo's backstory got moved to VIII, perhaps, if there's still truth in that rumor.

I'm wondering if there might have been a scenario where Ben was kidnapped by the KoR from Luke's group, indoctrinated, and then came back and carried out the massacre of the remaining students. I still think that there's probably more of a twist to the story than that, but even something that basic sets him up in a more sympathetic light than what was shown in TFA.

@ISeeAnIsland

Right.  I agree @ISeeAnIsland ...  and I find it interesting that they say he fell under Snoke's "spell".  "Spell" hints at serious manipulation like torture/indoctrination/cult/even something magical.

motherofpearl1 wrote:Well, they aren't going to reveal anything dramatic until the film's released, of course. All this does is repeat what we have already been told in TFA.
I'm particularly intrigued by that source who mentioned Kylo was 'abducted' and 'indoctrinated' into the Knights of Ren - a lot of spoilers are rubbish,but this was a source whose other revelations - Han's death, Luke not making an appearance until the end - proved true.

I know I really want Kylo to be redeemed, but I can't help but think that he's so obviously set up as 'the big bad' of TFA that there is going to be a huge twist in Ep VIII that will show him in a different light.

@motherofpearl1
Was Kylo set up as the "big bad" of TFA though? Not really, IMO. At least by the standard definition. Kylo would actually be called a "dragon" trope, the villain you see most in a particular work of fiction (and one who is always working for a bigger force in the shadows). Snoke was the "big bad" through-and-through and I really don't see that changing anytime soon, not when his story hasn't even begun to be told. It's not even a matter of what's cliche or not cliche or what's common when it comes to tropes, Kylo has absolutely been set up as a villain who is being "used" by a bigger villain. There are a whole lot of implications that come with that.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:Well, they aren't going to reveal anything dramatic until the film's released, of course. All this does is repeat what we have already been told in TFA.
I'm particularly intrigued by that source who mentioned Kylo was 'abducted' and 'indoctrinated' into the Knights of Ren - a lot of spoilers are rubbish,but this was a source whose other revelations - Han's death, Luke not making an appearance until the end - proved true.

I know I really want Kylo to be redeemed, but I can't help but think that he's so obviously set up as 'the big bad' of TFA that there is going to be a huge twist in Ep VIII that will show him in a different light.

@motherofpearl1
Was Kylo set up as the "big bad" of TFA though? Not really, IMO. At least by the standard definition. Kylo would actually be called a "dragon" trope, the villain you see most in a particular work of fiction (and one who is always working for a bigger force in the shadows). Snoke was the "big bad" through-and-through and I really don't see that changing anytime soon, not when his story hasn't even begun to be told. It's not even a matter of what's cliche or not cliche or what's common when it comes to tropes, Kylo has absolutely been set up as a villain who is being "used" by a bigger villain. There are a whole lot of implications that come with that.

@FrolickingFizzgig

When I say 'big bad' I was referring to his killing of Han; the murder of possibly the most popular of the OT has essentially made him a'hate' figure among many viewers, and is the prime reason for Rey hating him. So for Rey - and the audience - to see him in a different light there has got to be a spectacular twist.

Oh, I can see Han doing that!

Between all of the mentions of Leia's pregnancy/love for her kid, potential Godfather II style flashbacks in TLJ, and the upcoming Han Solo movie, we're going to get quite the contrast between the childhood/young adulthood experiences of father and son. Good money says that Han deferred a lot of the decisions about his education and upbringing to Leia because she had the more conventional experience. Good money also says that what probably worked for Leia didn't work for Ben and that was part of the problem.

I thought this thread is the appropriate plase to post this link to a very interesting video:
https://mangu.tv/full-trancript-creating-freedom-raoul-martinez-at-tedx/
It's called ''Creating Freedom''and it makes some really great points about what exactly shapes our identities and to what extent we're responsible for the actions we take which I think applies to Ben as well.
You can also read the transcript since the video is about seventeen minutes long.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

nonesuch wrote:I picked up the 2017 Star Wars annual, and it expresses how Ben came under Snoke's influence in an interesting way: "He trains with his uncle, Luke Skywalker, but this ends in disaster as he falls under the spell of the evil Supreme Leader Snoke. After killing the next generation of Jedi, Ben takes the name Kylo Ren and serves the First Order."

@nonesuch

motherofpearl1 wrote:Well, they aren't going to reveal anything dramatic until the film's released, of course. All this does is repeat what we have already been told in TFA.
I'm particularly intrigued by that source who mentioned Kylo was 'abducted' and 'indoctrinated' into the Knights of Ren - a lot of spoilers are rubbish,but this was a source whose other revelations - Han's death, Luke not making an appearance until the end - proved true.

I know I really want Kylo to be redeemed, but I can't help but think that he's so obviously set up as 'the big bad' of TFA that there is going to be a huge twist in Ep VIII that will show him in a different light.

@motherofpearl1

That source was from an old article for TFA that @panki found. It sounds like Ben's/Kylo's backstory got moved to VIII, perhaps, if there's still truth in that rumor.

I'm wondering if there might have been a scenario where Ben was kidnapped by the KoR from Luke's group, indoctrinated, and then came back and carried out the massacre of the remaining students. I still think that there's probably more of a twist to the story than that, but even something that basic sets him up in a more sympathetic light than what was shown in TFA.

@ISeeAnIsland

Right.  I agree @ISeeAnIsland ...  and I find it interesting that they say he fell under Snoke's "spell".  "Spell" hints at serious manipulation like torture/indoctrination/cult/even something magical.

@SoloSideCousin

Like many here have wrote:  Ben sounded like a brainwash cult member when he said "no Supreme Leader Snoke is wise." Like he was a manchurian candidate whose programing kicked in to praise his master at all times?

I've read a lot of blogs whose authors have the same opinion, and I agree with them.

I feel so sorry for Kylo - Snoke has brainwashed him into believing he wants power when all he really wants is love.

"Indocrinated" and "falling under a spell" is a very accurate way of putting it IMO, even if it's not meant to be taken literally. We know Snoke has (and still is) manipulating Kylo, he is using him for his power, just like Han said. Even Ben knows that, deep down (or maybe even not so deep down). The way I perceive it in TFA, Kylo doesn't appear to be brainwashed, i.e. at least not all the time. We know that because the Ben persona, his true self, shows up at certain key moments, notably in all his scenes with Rey, and the one with his dad. I don't think there is any actual, physical brainwashing going on, it's more metaphorical than literal. "Falling under a spell" = allowing himself to be manipulated and convincing himself that he is doing the right thing even though in his heart he knows it's not. That said, there was a moment at the very end of the bridge scene, the one @Darth Dementor is talking about, where I had the sense Kylo wasn't in full control of his own self, particularly the moment where it all went dark and his expression changed suddenly. Seconds afterwards he looked as if he's woken up from a nightmare. This is the moment JJ is refering to when he says "he instantly regrets it." "The Supreme Leader is wise" sounds like a line he's learned by heart and just repeating blindly without actually believing in it. It's clear from the sharp contrast between his facial expression and the words he's saying. He's fooling himself big time. And, yes, it looks like they decided to save the whole story of Ben's fall for TLJ (and IX). Perhaps that's why the scene with the little boy in Rey's vision was deleted if that rumour is true. In the next one we'll witness the details alongside Rey and narrative logic tells us this will lead to some important changes and a possible shift of alliances.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed that scene - the look on Ben's face after he killed his father looked as if he'd snapped out of a trance.

motherofpearl1 wrote:I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed that scene - the look on Ben's face after he killed his father looked as if he'd snapped out of a trance.

@motherofpearl1

I noticed that in my first viewing, and it was the reason why that scene felt so powerful. It was Ben there, not Kylo Ren, the alter-ego.

When he was talking to his father about the pain, he was being honest. He was being Ben. Then, all of a sudden, Kylo Ren took place, as if he was being controlled. And then Ben returned, shocked.

Piper Maru wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed that scene - the look on Ben's face after he killed his father looked as if he'd snapped out of a trance.

@motherofpearl1

I noticed that in my first viewing, and it was the reason why that scene felt so powerful. It was Ben there, not Kylo Ren, the alter-ego.

When he was talking to his father about the pain, he was being honest. He was being Ben. Then, all of a sudden, Kylo Ren took place, as if he was being controlled. And then Ben returned, shocked.

@Piper Maru

There is *a lot* of mental triggering in the new canon where people can be their true selves for a period of time and then something triggers them into a Manchurian Candidate kind of mode. There is also a lot of reason to believe (RJ used two Jungian books to prepare for TLJ) that there is some serious infighting between Kylo/Ben's shadow and persona. I personally think when he was with Luke that Kylo was the shadow, and then when he fell under Snoke that Ben became the shadow. At the same time I think that Kylo almost acts as a kind of guard dog/protector for the more sensitive Ben, but there is a tug-of-war between the two ... when in the end he needs integration and to accept his whole self. Honestly, I think that his so-called "tantrums" could be a sign of his extreme inner conflict and how stressful it is. I mean for all we know, all that smashing could be an external manifestation of Kylo beating back Ben.

I was reading author Jason Fry's notes for Weapon of a Jedi (Luke's adventures before ESB)...and what I found interesting was that he wanted to show Luke having prophetic dreams...and him being guided by these dreams and visions....this was supposed to be a callback to Anakin's dreams of Shmi and Padme.

This got me thinking- what if Ben was haunted by terrible dreams through his childhood, and both Han and Leia didn't quite know how to handle this as it probably got worse as he got older....and maybe both Rey and Snoke turned up in those dreams? Maybe scary prophetic dreams are something inherited by Skywalker men...while Leia might have inherited it in a different way- sensing emotions (Padme's sadness, Luke's call for help on Bespin, Han's death)

panki wrote:I was reading author Jason Fry's notes for Weapon of a Jedi (Luke's adventures before ESB)...and what I found interesting was that he wanted to show Luke having prophetic dreams...and him being guided by these dreams and visions....this was supposed to be a callback to Anakin's dreams of Shmi and Padme.

This got me thinking- what if Ben was haunted by terrible dreams through his childhood, and both Han and Leia didn't quite know how to handle this as it probably got worse as he got older....and maybe both Rey and Snoke turned up in those dreams? Maybe scary prophetic dreams are something inherited by Skywalker men...while Leia might have inherited it in a different way- sensing emotions (Padme's sadness, Luke's call for help on Bespin, Han's death)

@panki

I know that Ben having prophetic dreams and visions has been a favorite headcanon of mine for a long time. They could be used to explain a lot: (1) Han and Leia not knowing what to do with him if he is so tormented, (2) a vehicle for both Snoke and the force to get in to give him untrue and true information respectively, (3) a reason for being haunted or having mood imbalances, (4) a reason why he seems to know Rey, and finally (5) the dreams could get more detailed over time and imply a mission of sorts, perhaps the self-sacrificing kind of thing @Darth Dingbat and @Reynak have spoken about involving Snoke, that he avoids for a long time until the dreams/visions and life circumstances wear him down to be "resigned to his fate."

SoloSideCousin wrote:

panki wrote:I was reading author Jason Fry's notes for Weapon of a Jedi (Luke's adventures before ESB)...and what I found interesting was that he wanted to show Luke having prophetic dreams...and him being guided by these dreams and visions....this was supposed to be a callback to Anakin's dreams of Shmi and Padme.

This got me thinking- what if Ben was haunted by terrible dreams through his childhood, and both Han and Leia didn't quite know how to handle this as it probably got worse as he got older....and maybe both Rey and Snoke turned up in those dreams? Maybe scary prophetic dreams are something inherited by Skywalker men...while Leia might have inherited it in a different way- sensing emotions (Padme's sadness, Luke's call for help on Bespin, Han's death)

@panki

I know that Ben having prophetic dreams and visions has been a favorite headcanon of mine for a long time. They could be used to explain a lot: (1) Han and Leia not knowing what to do with him if he is so tormented, (2) a vehicle for both Snoke and the force to get in to give him untrue and true information respectively, (3) a reason for being haunted or having mood imbalances, (4) a reason why he seems to know Rey, and finally (5) the dreams could get more detailed over time and imply a mission of sorts, perhaps the self-sacrificing kind of thing @Darth Dingbat and @Reynak have spoken about involving Snoke, that he avoids for a long time until the dreams/visions and life circumstances wear him down to be "resigned to his fate."

@SoloSideCousin

This makes a lot of sense...and Snoke would definitely have taken advantage of this ability to influence Ben....as for being resigned to his fate, that is a headcanon of mine, where the "Master" of the KOR is someone who will eventually get sacrificed (Snoke's former apprentices probably held this title)....something like the Sacred Kings in books like the Golden Bough... they hold more of a spiritual title and are sacrificed at some fixed point of time or to avert a great crisis.

Some excerpts from the upcoming book Aftermath: Empire's End:

Aftermath: Empire’s End spoilers below the cut

Excerpt 1:

Luke. She reaches for him but doesn’t find him.
The dark, now lit with stars. One by one, like eyes opening. Comforting at first, then sinister as she worries. Who is out there, who is watching us? Hands reach for her, hands of shadow, lifting her up, reaching for her throat, her wrists, her stomach -
Inside, the child kicks. She feels her baby turning inside, right-side, up and down, struggling to find his bearings, trying so hard to find his way free of her. It’s not time, she thinks. Just a little longer.
Leia.
Luke, she wants to cry out. But her words don’t come. Her mouth is sealed, a hand pressed over it. One by one, stars go dark again, winking out of existence as if by a hand slowly closing over them -
Leia!
She gasps and wakes. Han. It’s just Han. He’s by her side of the bed, rousing her, gently shaking her shoulder.
The dream recedes like a wave going back to sea.
Hi, she says, her mouth tacky, her eyes full of sleep. Her middle twists too - it’s not the baby. It’s some unseen fear uncoiling. The remnants of the dream haunt her - but they break apart like a sand castle as she sits up and clears her head, doing as Luke taught her to do.
Breathe in breathe out. Be mindful of the world, the galaxy, your place within it. Everything will be OK. The Force will be your guide.

Excerpt 2:

He is less a human shaped thing and more a pulsing, living band of light. Light that sometimes dims, that sometimes is thrust with a vein of darkness. She tells herself that it’s normal - Luke said to her, Leia, we all have that. He explained that the brighter the light, the darker the shadow.
Right now, her son is upset, tumbling inside her as if he can’t get comfortable. His light, flickering with dark. She centers herself and concentrates. The walls of the room fall away. Everything is white and then it’s black. Then she’s in the calm, airless void. As Leia finds her peace, so does her son. He stops turning…
Then he gets the hiccups.
Hic.Hic.Hic.
She sighs and it brings her out of it. But she laughs, too. Because the hiccups tickle her. They are like bubbles inside - a curious effervescence like nothing Leia ever felt before.
My son is alive. The future is bright.
…
The baby turns inside her again, troubled by something she cannot feel and cannot yet understand.

Has this been discussed yet somewhere on the forum?

It sounds creepy like hell. Poor Ben!

Source: http://bastila-bae.tumblr.com/post/157259526510/its-more-than-just-having-a-bad-seed-as-a-kid

Absence of actual grandparents also probably made a toll on Ben. A lot of my friends spent a great amount of their early childhood with their grandparents while their parents were working. I did not had this option and was left  first with nannies and then by myself in a result I grew up without a feeling of connections to my family's legacy.

I imagine if Bail and Breha were alive Ben would probably turn out different and he won't need a dead never seen grandparent to worship. They were not connected by blood, but judging how Leia turned out their influence could be crucial.

I recently analyzed Rey's Force vision, and I think the massacre/fall to the dark side was directly triggered by the galactic reveal of the Skywalkers relation to Darth Vader.

You can hear Luke's screams of No...no...no... from ESB in the background as the temple burns in the vision.

We know that Ben had been targeted literally for all of his life, and Han wasn't fully accepting of his son's powers, wishing that Ben were "normal" like him. This implies a difficult childhood, spotted with happy moments which Leia can reflect on, but difficult nonetheless.

I'm thinking that Ben, with all of the light in him, managed to resist the temptation of the dark side for 23 years but the whispering and prodding from Snoke was a constant torment. And having his life upended by the Vader reveal was too much.

This could also be why Ben feels like he can't simply walk away from the Order. It's not as if he can hide from Snoke. He needs to have some kind of hope that this evil can be defeated before he can be convinced to leave the dark side.

If the first Jedi temple on Ahch-To has the answer to destroying or banishing Snoke, then this could be what it takes to persuade him that it's not too late, that it's possible to free himself of this pain, and return to the light.