Ben's Childhood

I found this image of a padawan in the Jedi Path Manual which made me immediately think this is what Ben Solo probably looked like as a padawan (though this book was released in 2010)

http://zenbrainjam.tumblr.com/post/143471737630/his-expression-reminded-her-a-little-bit-of-bens
I don't know if this was already posted but this quote is from a reylo fan who is reading the bloodline book in advance, don't read if you want to avoid spoilers.
Leia talking about little Ben.

EDIT:
I had seen that was already posted into another thread (and how do you find out the original post url of the OP on tumblr? I dind't find out how to see only that specific post on the user blog and then in the end I linked my reblog)

some good discussion on developmental stages and it being a little incongruous.

Dark side indoctrination

neglected children have particular appeal for self-centered parents not that i necessariy agree that han and leia were neglectful, but i think the reasoning in itself is sound.

Posted by @MrsBenSolo on another thread, thought we can expand on this here.


If they ever show Young Ben Solo with his family during better times, they won't be able to use the OT actors, so my guess is it may be in holos or visuals that are very abstract, or they won't really show faces full on.  Can't wait to see more of Ben's backstory.  They really can make it tragic.

guardienne wrote:that was interesting @darth dementor and pretty astute.

i've just read a little on child grooming.

this is off http://www.naasca.org/2012-Articles/040512-GroomingWillingVictims.htm

3. Filling a need
The molester exploits the child's emotional needs by freely offering love, friendship and support. Parents may even feel relieved that the child has found a responsible friend, mentor or role model or that they have found a dependable babysitter, depending on the age of the child. Whatever the parent needs, the molester is pleased to help out. Whatever the child needs or wants, the molester is happy to provide, with or without the parents knowledge or consent. Some molesters will even instigate a sexual relationship with a single parent just to gain access to her children. The greater the family need and the molester's position of trust, the less ability a child has to say, “NO!”

i know this is about sexual abuse and i'm not suggesting there was sexual abuse but it still struck a chord. i wonder if he was palmed off to snoke whilst leia was busy? and because snoke knows about the force, she would have been relieved thinking that her son was with someone who could show him stuff?

@guardienne

I think it is a very valid comparison. No, it wasn't sustained sexual abuse, but the MO is very similar. And sustained manipulation through the Force, in my opinion, is a form of molestation unto itself. And make no bones about it, Snoke targeting Ben was a very deliberate thing. He already had his Knights of Ren if he wanted weaponized Force pitbulls.

He targeted Ben because he was the last in the Skywalker line. Control Ben, and you control the Skywalker legacy. The champions of the Force would be no longer. Ben Solo was a prize to be stolen and a legacy to be corrupted. He wasn't targeted because he was susceptible to the Dark side. He was targeted because of who he was--the heir to an enormous legacy.

As I wrote elsewhere, Kylo Ren is the golem that Snoke crafted from the broken remains of Ben. Snoke has the ability to extinguish the Skywalker line or control the next generation for birth if he allows Kylo Ren to reproduce. (He may also view Kylo as a force breeding stock--ie, "When he gets what he wants, he'll crush you."

Controlling Ben Solo is the biggest eff you to the light side of the Force.

Couple that with the concepts of predestination, something Snoke may have hammered home with Ben as he constructed Kylo Ren, and Ben may simply feel trapped by inertia and his perceived predestination to be nothing more than an instrument of the dark. Why bother turning ot the light if you have already been condemned.

I doubt LFL would ever go down (as in snowball's chance in hell) a fourth generation Skywalker plot in this trilogy, but there are only a few things that I could see Kylo's inner Ben rising up to defy his master over: protecting his mother and protecting his own child. Let's just say he and Rey don't get the whole contraception thing down (what, they're probably green and clueless, so it could happen) and she is carrying his child. I could see that also being a tipping point for him. He may realize finally how miserable he is and not wish that type of existential suffering on his own child.

@macha ren a thousand fanfic authors cried out in terror... re:him defending his offspring.

i think defending rey could also work. i'm not sure he would defend himself as indeed he doesn't.

but either way, it's for this reason that i think snoke was known to both leia and han and that they probably, to a degree, welcomed him involved with ben.

Macha Ren wrote:

guardienne wrote:that was interesting @darth dementor and pretty astute.

i've just read a little on child grooming.

this is off http://www.naasca.org/2012-Articles/040512-GroomingWillingVictims.htm

3.  Filling a need
The molester exploits the child's emotional needs by freely offering love, friendship and support. Parents may even feel relieved that the child has found a responsible friend, mentor or role model or that they have found a dependable babysitter, depending on the age of the child. Whatever the parent needs, the molester is pleased to help out. Whatever the child needs or wants, the molester is happy to provide, with or without the parents knowledge or consent. Some molesters will even instigate a sexual relationship with a single parent just to gain access to her children. The greater the family need and the molester's position of trust, the less ability a child has to say, “NO!”

i know this is about sexual abuse and i'm not suggesting there was sexual abuse but it still struck a chord. i wonder if he was palmed off to snoke whilst leia was busy? and because snoke knows about the force, she would have been relieved thinking that her son was with someone who could show him stuff?

@guardienne

I think it is a very valid comparison. No, it wasn't sustained sexual abuse, but the MO is very similar. And sustained manipulation through the Force, in my opinion, is a form of molestation unto itself. And make no bones about it, Snoke targeting Ben was a very deliberate thing. He already had his Knights of Ren if he wanted weaponized Force pitbulls.

He targeted Ben because he was the last in the Skywalker line. Control Ben, and you control the Skywalker legacy. The champions of the Force would be no longer. Ben Solo was a prize to be stolen and a legacy to be corrupted. He wasn't targeted because he was susceptible to the Dark side. He was targeted because of who he was--the heir to an enormous legacy.

As I wrote elsewhere, Kylo Ren is the golem that Snoke crafted from the broken remains of Ben. Snoke has the ability to extinguish the Skywalker line or control the next generation for birth if he allows Kylo Ren to reproduce. (He may also view Kylo as a force breeding stock--ie, "When he gets what he wants, he'll crush you."

Controlling Ben Solo is the biggest eff you to the light side of the Force.

Couple that with the concepts of predestination, something Snoke may have hammered home with Ben as he constructed Kylo Ren, and Ben may simply feel trapped by inertia and his perceived predestination to be nothing more than an instrument of the dark. Why bother turning ot the light if you have already been condemned.

I doubt LFL would ever go down (as in snowball's chance in hell) a fourth generation Skywalker plot in this trilogy, but there are only a few things that I could see Kylo's inner Ben rising up to defy his master over: protecting his mother and protecting his own child. Let's just say he and Rey don't get the whole contraception thing down (what, they're probably green and clueless, so it could happen) and she is carrying his child. I could see that also being a tipping point for him. He may realize finally how miserable he is and not wish that type of existential suffering on his own child.

@Macha Ren

Brilliant post all around! I love how you said Kylo was the "golem" created from the remains of Ben Solo.  I think of Kylo more as a disassociative  protector created by Ben's psyche to deal with Snoke, but the end result of a cobbled-together persona created out of distress is the same.

@snufkin has been talking a lot about how Snoke has been targeting Leia and to a lesser extent the Skywalkers with turning Ben.  She talks about how his turn is so personal, and there are hints in the canon that Snoke may have known Leia personally.  She also argues that all three (Ben, Rey and Finn) might have been targeted due to family connections, due to speculation that Rey might be a Kenobi and Finn may be related to Forest Whitaker's character in Rogue One.

I completely agree with you about Kylo/Ben feeling trapped.  I think when he tells Han "it's too late," he really means it.  I think he thinks he is condemned because of his bad deeds, and I am personally one that thinks he does have an agenda that goes against Snoke, but that he thinks he needs the dark side to succeed, and since he is "already lost" in his mind, he is prepared to go "all in" to achieve it so something decent can come out of his life.

I also agree that he would definitely change if his child were threatened.  It would kill him IMO to see his kid misused like he was.  And if this was a series of Harry Potter length I would be positive that we would see something like that as the big redemptive turn.  However, I think we could get something of similar effect if Rey were to start turning due to Snoke's influence.  He cares about Rey and seeing her turn would make him sick, not just because it would be a slap in the face of what happened to him, but because he would love Rey and wouldn't be able to stand to see it happen to her.  Something like this could really break his tie with Snoke, IMO.

However, that doesn't mean that there will never be a child threatened with these characters. It just won't be in the next two movies IMO. However, I am a firm believer that Disney has no intention of letting this group of *young* actors go if they can keep them all signed on, particularly Adam Driver ... so maybe they throw out the idea of the trilogy at some point? Disney made a huge investment in this and are transforming their parks for this.  This is a 30 year investment, not a 3 movie investment.  IMO they are going to try their hardest to get more than 3 movies out of these actors, because this is an excellent group.  As the prequels show, that kind of acting + chemistry doesn't always happen.

@guardienne: I'd cry out in terror too but not because of Kylo defending his offspring. I just hope they don't give us a strong "princess" getting knocked up when she's just starting to figure out who she is - as in what person she is and not whose child she is.

@Macha Ren I understand your thinking, but I have to admit, I am a bit allergic to 20 year old Rey getting pregnant and by accident. But that's me. Still I don't know if they want to go there. Ok, could be in later movies, but I prefer not to think about the next trilogy. It's too far away imo. For all we know, Disney could sell Lucasfilm again and the whole story plan is gone - things tend to repeat themselves

If anything, I'd bet on Ben trying to defend Rey, even though defending his mom would be nice too, but defending Rey from Snoke would put more focus on the new generation. He could rush to see his mother though if the rumor that she gets hurt is true. The timeline seems to indicate hat he turned in his early 20s so saving Rey - if Snoke was trying to get her - would be subconsciously like saving his 20 year old self and it would give a meaning to his own fall.

That's why I prefaced my statement by snowball's chance in hell. I want Kylo and Rey to figure out who they are as a couple and be comfortable in a relationship long before they even consider parenthood.

What I was illustrate was what would make Kylo reject Snoke for, and the biggest thing would be protecting those he fiercely loves: his mother, likey Rey, and any child he may have.

I think he truly regrets killing his father and won't make that mistake again. Thus far he has been unable to protect himself, but I think he won't make that mistake in the future with those he cares for. I only mentioned the prospect of a child, because that would be something more visceral to him. He knows first hand what it feels like to be manipulated as a child and I firmly believe he would die first before he'd let his own child go through that.

Yes, it's the stuff of tropey fanfiction, but such a scenario would be transformative for him because of his past childhood trauma.

I don't know what exactly happened in the past of the Organa-Solo family, but I know exactly what I want their future to be like.

Rimfaxe96 wrote:I don't know what exactly happened in the past of the Organa-Solo family, but I know exactly what I want their future to be like.

@Rimfaxe96

Is she stomping on Luke?

My main thought after seeing TFA for the first time was that Rey's exile and disappearance of her parents is tied in with whatever big bad ultimate end game (same one that would eventually crush Ben) Snoke has planned. And that it's also tied to whomever her family is, mostly likely also had a role in the fall of the Empire. Between Ben being named after Obi-Wan and both Bens approaching/speaking to her directly (and lbh Ewan "most charming/heartbreaking man the galaxy" playing young Obi-Wan), that's why I figured she's a Kenobi. Definitely not a random.

Otherwise, Leia's not going to get a chance to be the Galaxy's most awesome dirty talking grandma until long after Snoke has been defeated. And I'd bet money on him putting his sights on Rey, either to have her killed or to try and get his claws on her as a pawn, being our favorite moody space nerd's impetus to finally revolt against his crappy, evil boss. Also throw in a realization that he's essentially been used as a tool of nasty, personal retribution against his mother.

Rimfaxe96 wrote:I don't know what exactly happened in the past of the Organa-Solo family, but I know exactly what I want their future to be like.

@Rimfaxe96

Hahahaha! The picture reminds me of this specific fanfic, "The Scavenger and the Monster Strike up a Romance" , Snoke made the big mistake when he messed with Leia, she will stomp him to death

http://archiveofourown.org/works/6442444/chapters/15236728

Maria Antonietta wrote:

Rimfaxe96 wrote:I don't know what exactly happened in the past of the Organa-Solo family, but I know exactly what I want their future to be like.

@Rimfaxe96

Is she stomping on Luke?

@Maria Antonietta

I think she's stomping on Snoke.  And Kylo is SO grounded! 

Macha Ren wrote:That's why I prefaced my statement by snowball's chance in hell. I want Kylo and Rey to figure out who they are as a couple and be comfortable in a relationship long before they even consider parenthood.

What I was illustrate was what would make Kylo reject Snoke for, and the biggest thing would be protecting those he fiercely loves: his mother, likey Rey, and any child he may have.

I think he truly regrets killing his father and won't make that mistake again. Thus far he has been unable to protect himself, but I think he won't make that mistake in the future with those he cares for. I only mentioned the prospect of a child, because that would be something more visceral to him. He knows first hand what it feels like to be manipulated as a child and I firmly believe he would die first before he'd let his own child go through that.

Yes, it's the stuff of tropey fanfiction, but such a scenario would be transformative for him because of his past childhood trauma.

@Macha Ren

You want him to make a child while he's still bad, then turn good for the child?

Some naughty thoughts... Ha, ha, just kidding.

Personally I still see the possibility that Rey or Kylo, more likely Kylo could have a tragic ending, but I'm sure he'd make a Skywalker before becoming a force ghost, so I think it's possible kids will be made soon... But I think he has to become a different person for Rey to accept to engage in baby making activities with him.

Force22 wrote:

Macha Ren wrote:That's why I prefaced my statement by snowball's chance in hell. I want Kylo and Rey to figure out who they are as a couple and be comfortable in a relationship long before they even consider parenthood.

What I was illustrate was what would make Kylo reject Snoke for, and the biggest thing would be protecting those he fiercely loves: his mother, likey Rey, and any child he may have.

I think he truly regrets killing his father and won't make that mistake again. Thus far he has been unable to protect himself, but I think he won't make that mistake in the future with those he cares for. I only mentioned the prospect of a child, because that would be something more visceral to him. He knows first hand what it feels like to be manipulated as a child and I firmly believe he would die first before he'd let his own child go through that.

Yes, it's the stuff of tropey fanfiction, but such a scenario would be transformative for him because of his past childhood trauma.

@Macha Ren

You want him to make a child while he's still bad, then turn good for the child?

Some naughty thoughts... Ha, ha, just kidding.

Personally I still see the possibility that Rey or Kylo, more likely Kylo could have a tragic ending, but I'm sure he'd make a Skywalker before becoming a force ghost, so I think it's possible kids will be made soon... But I think he has to become a different person for Rey to accept to engage in baby making activities with him.

@Force22

Well, I think first they will need to spend sometime together so that Rey can understand him more and slowly help him to return to the person he once was then as she feels deeply connected with him, Kylo will "die" while saving her only to come back later. I can imagine Rey would be angry at first because what he did was foolish but then she will hug him or somethings. He is after all Han's son, of course he would do something equally stupid but effective in winning a lady's heart

Sylvia Snow wrote:
@Force22

Well, I think first they will need to spend sometime together so that Rey can understand him more and slowly help him to return to the person he once was then as she feels deeply connected with him, Kylo will "die" while saving her only to come back later. I can imagine Rey would be angry at first because what he did was foolish but then she will hug him or somethings. He is after all Han's son, of course he would do something equally stupid but effective in winning a lady's heart

@Sylvia Snow

Well, something big needs to happen for Rey to perceive him differently or understand him and see that he's not really a father murdering monster, before they make babies. It could be before he completely turns. And we know they'll have some time together in Episode VIII... I mean... I keep think what Luke is going to be doing there. Third wheel!

Honestly he needs to be closer to forty with a decade of living as Ben again before he would be ready to be a father.

Macha Ren wrote:Honestly he needs to be closer to forty with a decade of living as Ben again before he would be ready to be a father.

@Macha Ren

Good news is, Rey will still be in her late 20s Childbearing can get complicated after 35...

Macha Ren wrote:Honestly he needs to be closer to forty with a decade of living as Ben again before he would be ready to be a father.

@Macha Ren

That's one of the reasons I always have fondness and lots of headcanon for "Exile Ren". I always kind of want him to find himself away from the Jedi scene and even Rey. There's a part of me that really doesn't want him to be so desperate and needy when he gets together with Rey. Also this would give her a chance to allow her to "go away to graduate school" and become her Jedi goddess self and not be so "wide-eyed and fresh from Jakku" with him. It also would be a lovely set-up for a sequel to the sequel trilogy, which of course I want, because it's more Adam Driver screentime. :-)

Maria Antonietta wrote:

Slade wrote:Is she stomping on Luke?

@Maria Antonietta

I think she's stomping on Snoke.  And Kylo is SO grounded! 

@Slade

Correct, it's Snoke. And yeah, he definitely is. There was another funny picture like this by the same artist with Leia dragging him home, but I can't find it anymore. I just have too many favourites now on tumblr. >.<

SoloSideCousin wrote:

Macha Ren wrote:Honestly he needs to be closer to forty with a decade of living as Ben again before he would be ready to be a father.

@Macha Ren

That's one of the reasons I always have fondness and lots of headcanon for "Exile Ren". I always kind of want him to find himself away from the Jedi scene and even Rey. There's a part of me that really doesn't want him to be so desperate and needy when he gets together with Rey. Also this would give her a chance to allow her to "go away to graduate school" and become her Jedi goddess self and not be so "wide-eyed and fresh from Jakku" with him. It also would be a lovely set-up for a sequel to the sequel trilogy, which of course I want, because it's more Adam Driver screentime. :-)

@SoloSideCousin

I think Exile Ren would be fitting and realistic for a variety of reasons, not least of which is: Just what are they going to do with a guy who has such atrocities under his belt? Space jail? But I always imagine at some point Rey chooses to go find him and be with him, after they've both grown, and after a time they start their little space family. I can't describe how delighted I'd be if the ending of IX was set several years after the final showdown and we saw penitent Ben on Their Island and is look of shock and pure love when Rey got off the MF to meet him. Fluffy headcanon, I know, but I can dream.

Count me in as pro-exile for Kylo after redemption, at least for some period of time. I think he has to spend some time alone, atoning for his actions. Although I want him to eventually have his own life, I see him always trying to atone, forever changed by his past decisions and actions.  

I kind of like the idea of the trilogy ending with Kylo and Rey saying good bye after the war is over as Kylo is going into exile, knowing he can't stay. Their goodbye would be very wistful and bittersweet with both of them knowing there is now this profound emotional connection between them, yet also knowing they can't be together right now. However, there is this understanding that they'll see each other again, eventually, and then maybe...

I don't know...I go over all kinds of different scenarios on how it could end...I'm most concerned with a (fulfilling) redemption so I feel the most likely scenarios are the ones that take Kylo's need for atonement into consideration.

Yeah, the only outcome after redemption and helping bring the FO/Snoke down would be exile either self imposed or Leia/the Resistance does it (if she lives).