Official TROS Spoilers discussion

Mila95 wrote:

nickandnora wrote:Ironically, for a movie that the writers are claiming (after the fact) is all about the importance of resolving the stories of Luke and Leia, they sure as hell underutilize Luke. Part of me wonders if they are doing some kind of damage control because they KNOW the didn't use Mark properly and are anticipating bad reaction to *that* but literally no one is talking about that and no one cares. Which makes their Luke and Leia spin all the more confusing.

@nickandnora

Yeah it's not like either gets a lot of screentime really, tho in Leia's case they didn't have much choice. I think they were more obsessed with Luke and Leia as these iconic characters, as legends to use for nostalgia rather than three dimensional characters. It is kinda crazy how little attention the Luke scene got for all the drama and discourse about him after TLJ.The most conversation it cause was about bad CGI and a line that was a dig at TLJ which are both outside the story. But considering how lame and basic that scene was and how Luke didn't say anything memorable or interesting I guess it's to be expected.

@Mila95 Oh but that's not important to them or the fanboys this movie was targeted toward: HE RAISED HIS X-WING! And that was ALL that he needed to do (besides be 20ft tall -- but that's beside the point). Did you notice none of the fanboys have an issue with that scene?

The more I think about, the more I'm certain that if the writers of TRoS had been the writers of RotJ, they would've done two things based on the type of logic (meaning they think their preferences as fanboys dictate what's most logical)

+ Had a convoluted subplot that walks back "No, I am your father" to reveal that Vader lied and that Luke's father was 100% unproblematic Boy Scout Jedi Force Ghost

+ Han either would've died or he would've been rescued only for the entire topic of romance/shared fate between him and Leia to be dropped 100%. If he's not killed, he stays behind on the Rebel Base because he needs to read up on some spaceship specifications.

+ Leia would've continued to have low level Force powers along the lines of Carrie's "woman's intuition" crack and instead of continuing to lead the Rebellion or being revealed as Luke's sister, it would've been the same s*** about showing herself being worthy of Luke's expertise and guidance as a Force user. Not being his sister they would've thrown in some sh*t about how she's got amnesia or is over Han despite him risking his life and it's hinted that she has feelings for Luke thanks to his cool new Jedi Knight persona.

I tell you, I miss when people theorized that Rey accidentally killed her parents in the shuttle with her Force powers (because that would have been interesting AND given her serious flaws) and that Jakku mattered and that Ben took in Palpatine, sacrificed himself by telling Rey to kill him and end it once and for all, and then was revived by Rey. The last one I'm not as attached to because I did love him with his healing power and selfless love, but at least he lived in that theory lol.

Ugh, what is the point of Snokes backstory stuff in the Kylo Ren comics if he came from Palpatined fish tank.

Saracene wrote:I don’t think that the message was that “Rey is better off without a man” exactly, but I do think there’s a pattern to how her type of character tends to play out in fiction. It’s not even about a “strong” female character as such, but more specifically the “strong bad*** warrior” type. She either settles down with a man in the end and stops being a bad*** warrior, or she can continue to be one, but without a man. With Rey, they clearly wanted to stick to the former option, they didn’t give her a brand new golden lightsaber for nothing.

@Saracene

And that's where their choice is kinda weird because she could have been both. What I like about Rey is that she is portrayed by Daisy as a bad*** character in a way that feels pretty natural while making clear that she craves for belonging too. This is something she has always insisted about during interviews and  that is present including at the beginning of her TROS journey. I get that having a girl asking for a name on the Pasaana market is a way to remind the audience that she still has to figure out about her backstory. But why insisting on her tender but sad look at small kids? That's not supposed to be innocent as directing choice, especially with Kylo showing up just after like it's not related AT ALL. You can be a strong character and still crave for simple needs.

The more I think about it, the more I become convinced that the editing team had a "oh s***" moment when they realized that there was too much to cover in their story and that they had to make drastic cuts. Whether or not Ben was always supposed to die is unclear but I guess that keeping him alive would have required either to have Rey get separated from the Resistance to follow him or have Ben introduced to the Resistance with the problem to explain these people why he was worthy for redemption. That's exactly the same issue as with Vader: Rey is the only one who witnessed his redemption. That's why I always thought that the whole Galaxy was supposed to witness that redemption in one way or another. In my ideal scenario, I would have had Rey defeating Palpatine alone and dying but as ultimate twist Palpatine having programmed the fleet to execute the final order in the case he got defeated with the only possibility to desactivate that order from a specific (dark) place on Exegol while the planet would slowly begin to fall into pieces. And as the sadist he is, I would have imagined him to prerecord the message by hologramm and spread it with a countdown for all the Galaxy to witness in horror.

For me, this would have been the rise of Skywalker to have Ben rising from the pit, realizing Rey's death, taking her on his shoulders, going after the thing to desactivate and having trouble to complete the mission because that specific place send very dark vibes. It would have been a nice way to remind the audience about the tragic backstory of the Skywalkers with Palpatine and having Ben confronted with the same choice as Anakin: getting the choice between saving systems by desactivating the order or being tempted to save Rey by listening his abuser. In the end, he would choose to save the galaxy and would save Rey once it's all over. I would have had him coming close to death in the process, Rey getting rescued from the falling apart planet by the Millenium Falcon, Ben desperately losing energy until the arrival on the Resistance base, coming back to life only after being brought next to Leia's body who would disappear after giving him her remaining energy before becoming one with the Force and Ben having few Force power within in the end and why not giving it up completely. I don't see why they shouldn't have raised a family since Rey never expressed any big ambition other than finding a belonging. Becoming pilots flying through the Galaxy would have been more than fine depending on which "sentence" Ben would have got for his role in the wae.    

But of course, that kind of redemption scenario would have required like 20 minutes more and I guess that they would have found that too long. The more I think about it, the more I get the sense that they should have had the gut to conclude this epic saga with a 3 hours movie if needed. When I rewatched Titanic a few days ago, I didn't even realize that the movie was so long because it is good. Tonight, I have tried to watch a 1h30 movie and it was already boring after 10 minutes into the movie.

Dar-ren19 wrote:

Mila95 wrote:

nickandnora wrote:Ironically, for a movie that the writers are claiming (after the fact) is all about the importance of resolving the stories of Luke and Leia, they sure as hell underutilize Luke. Part of me wonders if they are doing some kind of damage control because they KNOW the didn't use Mark properly and are anticipating bad reaction to *that* but literally no one is talking about that and no one cares. Which makes their Luke and Leia spin all the more confusing.

@nickandnora

Yeah it's not like either gets a lot of screentime really, tho in Leia's case they didn't have much choice. I think they were more obsessed with Luke and Leia as these iconic characters, as legends to use for nostalgia rather than three dimensional characters. It is kinda crazy how little attention the Luke scene got for all the drama and discourse about him after TLJ.The most conversation it cause was about bad CGI and a line that was a dig at TLJ which are both outside the story. But considering how lame and basic that scene was and how Luke didn't say anything memorable or interesting I guess it's to be expected.

@Mila95 Oh but that's not important to them or the fanboys this movie was targeted toward: HE RAISED HIS X-WING! And that was ALL that he needed to do (besides be 20ft tall -- but that's beside the point). Did you notice none of the fanboys have an issue with that scene?

@Dar-ren19

And Rey flew the X-wing, after it had been submerged for 6 or 7 years, without a door. Through space. I suppose she could have put the door back on— she’s handy like that, with her scavenger background— but wouldn’t the electrical wiring etc. be shot by this point? I think we are just not supposed to think too much about it.

Also, I thought the idea was that Luke did such deliberate damage to the X-wing that he was stranded on the island permanently. Apparently all he needed to do was lift it, and it would have worked just fine. No door required. It’s weird that we are not seeing the spaceship-obsessed fanboys having issues with that, or at least doing their usual sexist thing and saying Rey is a Mary-Sue because she can fly a broken X-wing.

@Lily Snape It's the thought that she sat in that thing in a pure white outfit and then turns up on Exegol without so much as a wet spot on the back of her capri pants that makes me realize "OFC this was all the doing of men."

reylo1992 wrote:

Saracene wrote:I don’t think that the message was that “Rey is better off without a man” exactly, but I do think there’s a pattern to how her type of character tends to play out in fiction. It’s not even about a “strong” female character as such, but more specifically the “strong bad*** warrior” type. She either settles down with a man in the end and stops being a bad*** warrior, or she can continue to be one, but without a man. With Rey, they clearly wanted to stick to the former option, they didn’t give her a brand new golden lightsaber for nothing.

@Saracene

And that's where their choice is kinda weird because she could have been both. What I like about Rey is that she is portrayed by Daisy as a bad*** character in a way that feels pretty natural while making clear that she craves for belonging too. This is something she has always insisted about during interviews and  that is present including at the beginning of her TROS journey. I get that having a girl asking for a name on the Pasaana market is a way to remind the audience that she still has to figure out about her backstory. But why insisting on her tender but sad look at small kids? That's not supposed to be innocent as directing choice, especially with Kylo showing up just after like it's not related AT ALL. You can be a strong character and still crave for simple needs.

@reylo1992

I guess it all kinda comes down to the idea that a woman can't be a mother and a warrior/adventurer? I mean, it even comes through with Leia where she couldn't become a Jedi and remain a good mother, she had to choose between the two and give up her Jedi training for her son's sake. It might not even have been a conscious thing, but it's something so deeply ingrained in our culture that it just come out. If it all ends with Rey and Ben a couple, with the implication that kids are somewhere on the horizon, that's the end of Rey's adventuring days and I don't think that's where they wanted to end the story.

Plus... a male character can go away adventuring on his own while his wife takes care of the family etc. and no one bats an eyelid, but I don't think we've progressed enough where this option is widely acceptable for a female character.

Saracene wrote:

reylo1992 wrote:

Saracene wrote:I don’t think that the message was that “Rey is better off without a man” exactly, but I do think there’s a pattern to how her type of character tends to play out in fiction. It’s not even about a “strong” female character as such, but more specifically the “strong bad*** warrior” type. She either settles down with a man in the end and stops being a bad*** warrior, or she can continue to be one, but without a man. With Rey, they clearly wanted to stick to the former option, they didn’t give her a brand new golden lightsaber for nothing.

@Saracene

And that's where their choice is kinda weird because she could have been both. What I like about Rey is that she is portrayed by Daisy as a bad*** character in a way that feels pretty natural while making clear that she craves for belonging too. This is something she has always insisted about during interviews and  that is present including at the beginning of her TROS journey. I get that having a girl asking for a name on the Pasaana market is a way to remind the audience that she still has to figure out about her backstory. But why insisting on her tender but sad look at small kids? That's not supposed to be innocent as directing choice, especially with Kylo showing up just after like it's not related AT ALL. You can be a strong character and still crave for simple needs.

@reylo1992

I guess it all kinda comes down to the idea that a woman can't be a mother and a warrior/adventurer? I mean, it even comes through with Leia where she couldn't become a Jedi and remain a good mother, she had to choose between the two and give up her Jedi training for her son's sake. It might not even have been a conscious thing, but it's something so deeply ingrained in our culture that it just come out. If it all ends with Rey and Ben a couple, with the implication that kids are somewhere on the horizon, that's the end of Rey's adventuring days and I don't think that's where they wanted to end the story.

Plus... a male character can go away adventuring on his own while his wife takes care of the family etc. and no one bats an eyelid, but I don't think we've progressed enough where this option is widely acceptable for a female character.

@Saracene

In 2018 we had multiple awesome female veterans running for office here in the US— Amy McGrath and MJ Hegar spring to mind. These guys should have known better re: women being warriors and mothers/wives if they want to. McGrath is running again this year. Hegar ran in a very conservative area and gave her opponent a real scare, although I don’t think she won. Her campaign video was a hell of a lot more thoughtful and well-done than TROS, for what it’s worth:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi6v4CYNSIQ

Saracene wrote:

reylo1992 wrote:

Saracene wrote:I don’t think that the message was that “Rey is better off without a man” exactly, but I do think there’s a pattern to how her type of character tends to play out in fiction. It’s not even about a “strong” female character as such, but more specifically the “strong bad*** warrior” type. She either settles down with a man in the end and stops being a bad*** warrior, or she can continue to be one, but without a man. With Rey, they clearly wanted to stick to the former option, they didn’t give her a brand new golden lightsaber for nothing.

@Saracene

And that's where their choice is kinda weird because she could have been both. What I like about Rey is that she is portrayed by Daisy as a bad*** character in a way that feels pretty natural while making clear that she craves for belonging too. This is something she has always insisted about during interviews and  that is present including at the beginning of her TROS journey. I get that having a girl asking for a name on the Pasaana market is a way to remind the audience that she still has to figure out about her backstory. But why insisting on her tender but sad look at small kids? That's not supposed to be innocent as directing choice, especially with Kylo showing up just after like it's not related AT ALL. You can be a strong character and still crave for simple needs.

@reylo1992

I guess it all kinda comes down to the idea that a woman can't be a mother and a warrior/adventurer? I mean, it even comes through with Leia where she couldn't become a Jedi and remain a good mother, she had to choose between the two and give up her Jedi training for her son's sake. It might not even have been a conscious thing, but it's something so deeply ingrained in our culture that it just come out. If it all ends with Rey and Ben a couple, with the implication that kids are somewhere on the horizon, that's the end of Rey's adventuring days and I don't think that's where they wanted to end the story.

Plus... a male character can go away adventuring on his own while his wife takes care of the family etc. and no one bats an eyelid, but I don't think we've progressed enough where this option is widely acceptable for a female character.

@Saracene

On the bolded: SW fandom is chock full of people with that attitude. See the Omera wank.

Concerning Rey, her ending absolutely plays into the trope that a female character has to give up adventuring/career or motherhood/marriage; she can't have both. It's incredibly sad and infuriating that for all the conversations about women being capable of having a career and family, we really don't see blockbuster Western media reflect this societal change and we still get a plethora of male characters being allowed to adventure/be warriors and be married.

...My God, I just realize The Mummy movies (bar the third one) took a more feminist approach on Evy than TROS did with Rey.  

Perhaps the folks here would like this video with Lindsay Ellis that just came out a couple days ago. It’s about the false beliefs that women can’t have both their ambitions and relationships, how rare this is in media, and also how there’s unfair double standards around women. You know, exactly what we're talking about here.

californiagirl wrote:

rawpowah wrote:So JJ and Terrio thought they were writing "Flowers in the Attic".

LOL! As crazy as it sounds, the circumstantial evidence is really adding up to the fact that JJ and Terrio subconsciously wanted Rey to be Luke and Leia’s daughter. Interesting how Luke and Leia ended up together at the end too, looking on with pride at Rey Skywalker.

californiagirl wrote:Perhaps the folks here would like this video with Lindsay Ellis that just came out a couple days ago. It’s about the false beliefs that women can’t have both their ambitions and relationships, how rare this is in media, and also how there’s unfair double standards around women. You know, exactly what we're talking about here.

@californiagirl

Definitely going to check the video. Love Lindsay's videos.

Kessel wrote:

californiagirl wrote:

rawpowah wrote:So JJ and Terrio thought they were writing "Flowers in the Attic".

LOL! As crazy as it sounds, the circumstantial evidence is really adding up to the fact that JJ and Terrio subconsciously wanted Rey to be Luke and Leia’s daughter. Interesting how Luke and Leia ended up together at the end too, looking on with pride at Rey Skywalker.

@Kessel

At the bolded:  

It's amazing that antis spent four years screeching how Reylo is inc*stuous and worrying about inc*st apologism cropping up in their Star Wars, only for their J.J. and his friend to turn around and unleash their borderline Luke x Leia fanfic upon the world.

Libra Vibora wrote:

californiagirl wrote:Perhaps the folks here would like this video with Lindsay Ellis that just came out a couple days ago. It’s about the false beliefs that women can’t have both their ambitions and relationships, how rare this is in media, and also how there’s unfair double standards around women. You know, exactly what we're talking about here.

@californiagirl

Definitely going to check the video. Love Lindsay's videos.

Kessel wrote:

californiagirl wrote:

rawpowah wrote:So JJ and Terrio thought they were writing "Flowers in the Attic".

LOL! As crazy as it sounds, the circumstantial evidence is really adding up to the fact that JJ and Terrio subconsciously wanted Rey to be Luke and Leia’s daughter. Interesting how Luke and Leia ended up together at the end too, looking on with pride at Rey Skywalker.

@Kessel

At the bolded:  

It's amazing that antis spent four years screeching how Reylo is inc*stuous and worrying about inc*st apologism cropping up in their Star Wars, only for their J.J. and his friend to turn around and unleash their borderline Luke x Leia fanfic upon the world.

It's also funny that some antis still claim Reylo is incest because they think the Rey Skywalker ending meant Rey is Luke's biological daughter, but they completely ignore the incestuous Luke/Leia ending. Then there's also antis who claim the Reylo kiss wasn't romantic but sibling like

Forsythia wrote:It's also funny that some antis still claim Reylo is incest because they think the Rey Skywalker ending meant Rey is Luke's biological daughter, but they completely ignore the incestuous Luke/Leia ending. Then there's also antis who claim the Reylo kiss wasn't romantic but sibling like

@Forsythia

Wow.  Just, wow.  I'm way behind on a lot of what's been happening lately, so I hadn't heard that.  Some of their interpretations are truly incredible.  I hated the movie and thought a lot of things about it were kind of puzzling, but I thought it was very clear that Rey was definitely not Luke's daughter and that the kiss clearly indicated non-sibling, romantic Reylo.

People see what they want to see.
However, they made TROS such a mishmash of ideas I'm not surprised if people think now that Finn is Leia and Lando's son, it wasn't Chewie they rescued but a clone, Kylo is really a girl and Rey the product of an illicit affair between Luke and Leia.
Oh, and BB is Artoo and Threepios love child.

Forsythia wrote:

Libra Vibora wrote:

californiagirl wrote:Perhaps the folks here would like this video with Lindsay Ellis that just came out a couple days ago. It’s about the false beliefs that women can’t have both their ambitions and relationships, how rare this is in media, and also how there’s unfair double standards around women. You know, exactly what we're talking about here.

@californiagirl

Definitely going to check the video. Love Lindsay's videos.

Kessel wrote:

californiagirl wrote:

rawpowah wrote:So JJ and Terrio thought they were writing "Flowers in the Attic".

LOL! As crazy as it sounds, the circumstantial evidence is really adding up to the fact that JJ and Terrio subconsciously wanted Rey to be Luke and Leia’s daughter. Interesting how Luke and Leia ended up together at the end too, looking on with pride at Rey Skywalker.

@Kessel

At the bolded:  

It's amazing that antis spent four years screeching how Reylo is inc*stuous and worrying about inc*st apologism cropping up in their Star Wars, only for their J.J. and his friend to turn around and unleash their borderline Luke x Leia fanfic upon the world.

It's also funny that some antis still claim Reylo is incest because they think the Rey Skywalker ending meant Rey is Luke's biological daughter, but they completely ignore the incestuous Luke/Leia ending. Then there's also antis who claim the Reylo kiss wasn't romantic but sibling like

@Forsythia

Not to mention those who claim that Reylo is incest because Palpatine Force conceived Anakin

Kyla Ren wrote:

Forsythia wrote:It's also funny that some antis still claim Reylo is incest because they think the Rey Skywalker ending meant Rey is Luke's biological daughter, but they completely ignore the incestuous Luke/Leia ending. Then there's also antis who claim the Reylo kiss wasn't romantic but sibling like

@Forsythia

Wow.  Just, wow.  I'm way behind on a lot of what's been happening lately, so I hadn't heard that.  Some of their interpretations are truly incredible.  I hated the movie and thought a lot of things about it were kind of puzzling, but I thought it was very clear that Rey was definitely not Luke's daughter and that the kiss clearly indicated non-sibling, romantic Reylo.

@Kyla Ren

I don't think that many people will seriously claim that the kiss was siblings-like, although I find a little weird that it looks like Daisy pretends to kiss Adam on his lips but maybe it's only a callback to the way Padme kisses Anakin at the beginning of ROTS. Beyond that, I think that the major issue with the kiss is that it seems like some people didn't see it coming because they didn't feel any romantic vibe in the relationship beyond tense interactions. That's one of the criticisms that my bro adressed  just after the viewing despite liking the movie in general. Yesterday, he developed his analysis about the Reylo relationship because he knows that I have shiped it since TFA. He told me that in his mind the kiss wasn't a good idea because TROS went into the direction of portraying Kylo Ren as the embodiment of a toxic man-child trying by any mean to isolate, dominate and shatter the confidence of the heroine. He acknowledged that there were a lot of parallels with Titanic but that he rather saw Kylo Ren as Cal rather than Jack because Cal constantly tries  to possess Rose against her will while Jack helps her revealing the strength she already has. To be honest, I can't blame him for this analysis because that's unfortunately how TROS portrays the relationship on the surface. I just argued back that looking at the broader picture, he should take into account that the love triangle in the ST was between Rey/Ben/Kylo and that I saw Rey as Jack trying to bring Ben as Rose to rise against Kylo as his dark shadow. It's hard to blame people through for not seeing that Rey has the traditional  role of the Prince from a female perspective and that she never really needed anyone to stand by herself against people trying to take advantage of her. I also showed my bro a twitter thread compiling all information about Ben's backstory from additional materials that didn't make it in the movies. Don't know if that will change his perspective but I am pretty sure that this additional infos in the movie certainly would have led to a different perception of the relationship in his mind. Let's imagine that we get an extended cut of the movie, I hope very much that it will include a lot more Reylo interactions than we saw in order to bring more nuance. Daisy said in an interview that you get to understand Rey's loneliness and Ben's despair through their emotional interactions. i must admit that until the DS fight, it's hard to relate to his behavior unless one keeps in mind how their interactions ended in the throne room, with Rey calling the lightsaber from his hand by surprise.

To be honest, both ST kisses are weakly done - Rose kissing Finn was surprising and awkward, Rey kissing Ben was better because Ben (in Adam's interpretation) was, in previous minutes, framed as a romantic hero. But it's sad that the filmmakers nowadays are so afraid of showing men taking initiative, unsure how to portray unambiguously woman's desire and consent (if the man has initiative), so they lazily just let the female protagonist do the kissing. It's safer, but there is a certain lack of passion.

In Solo, there's so many kisses! The writers were sure in their choice of the couple and their story, they stuck to it from the beginning (childhood sweethearts), the protagonists were types (charming scoundrel that we already know, and a kind of femme fatale), so they could afford to spring the movie with kisses.

Reylo is a tough nut to crack. That doesn't mean it's wrong, or without potential, or less beautiful. Just that it is strange that it's bloody filmmakers that created those characters in the first place (JJ! Kasdan! KK!), and then they are unable to deliver.

Thinking about how bad TRoS steamrolled over LFs ongoing discourse about how the Jedi order was flawed.

From the PT, to TCW and Rebels and finally TLJ we have this amazing discussion about power, morality, war, the Force, attachment and more. And TRoS just takes it and goes, lol Jedi good.

It's very disappointing.

I'm back!

I finally saw The Rise of Skywalker.

Honestly? I really enjoyed it on the surface for the most part at first but as soon as I started analyzing and everything it began to completely fall apart for me as it truly breaks canon, lore, and established character development!

Rey being a Palpatine makes *zero* sense. I admittedly didn't love the way The Last Jedi handled Rey Nobody but just seeing her parents was all the closure I needed as I just needed to be able to let go of George Lucas Star Wars. Honestly Rey Palpatine makes no sense. Rey going from a Nobody to Palpatine to kissing Ben to being alone again feels like total pandering!

I tried watching The Last Jedi yesterday and honestly I just wanted to cry when Ben told his honey "Why is the Force connecting us? You and I." So much wasted potential, ignoring, and pandering to dude bros! I even watched some of The Phantom Menace and Revenge of the Sith in context to certain moments that now thanks to The Rise of Skywalker are different and was so ready to cry then too.

It should've ended with Rey and Ben visiting the Homestead but Rey telling him that she's had enough desert living experience. Then they set off and arrive at Naboo! A quiet reversal of Revenge of the Sith where we see Alderaan and the Homestead. It equally is a lovely nod to Anakin and Padme! Even Palpatine if you just insist on her being a Palpatine. It also ends where it all began!

The Rise of Skywalker is entertaining on the surface level in a lot of ways but as soon as you take into account the lore, canon, what happened before, and everything in between it falls completely apart!

I'm happy we at least got to see Leia training with and using her very own lightsaber and that she mentored Rey!

There's something that's bothering me about Palpatine's scenes. Were all of his trailer lines cut/changed or were they just made for the trailers? I don't think most of them made it into the final movie.

"Long have I waited. And now, your coming together is your undoing."
The first part was in the film ("Long have I waited for my grandchild to come home."), but I don't remember "your coming together is your undoing" being in the movie. Was it cut because it was part of the Force Dyad plot? In the film Palpatine barely acknowledges Ben and Rey together. First he talks to Rey alone as if Ben doesn't exist, then when Ben appears he is immediately thrown away, then he talks to Rey alone again.

"Your journey nears its end."
"Let the final battle begin."
Not in the movie either, but they are trite lines you hear in every movie and could have been made just for the trailer.

"It is time that she learnt her story."
This is an interesting cut because in the film it seems like Kylo telling Rey her story is his own idea and Palpatine just wants her dead. Maybe there was an earlier version where Palpatine did the family reveal when they faced him together? I think it would have been more unsettling for Rey and Ben to learn this together and then not knowing what it means for them and questioning if this will change anything about their relationship. Rey could wonder whether Ben lied to her, Ben could be worried that she joins her grandfather and becomes his enemy again.

"This will be the final word in the story of Skywalker." This line is in the film but changed: "Let your death be the final word in the story of Rebellion."
Another interesting change. IMO the trailer version sounds like he is addressing a Skywalker, maybe Luke or Ben (or Rey, if JJ originally meant for her to be a Skywalker in blood?), but after heavy editing of the film, the line didn't make sense anymore and they replaced a few words.

The whole Rey vs. Palpatine part of the film seems heavily edited/cut IMO. Rey barely has any lines, Palpatine is mostly saying meaningless stuff and rehashed lines from RotJ. Maybe it's like that because they cut down all the parts about the Force Dyad or because there was a version that had Rey and Ben fight the Emperor together? It seems to me like Palpatine wasn't originally interested in Rey because she's his granddaughter, but he was interested in Rey AND Ben because they are a Force Dyad. Then there's also Rey's vision of her AND Ben together on the Throne that we never see. In the film we only see Dark Rey alone and Palpatine wants her on the throne, no mention of Ben. It's a shame JJ decided to drop the entire Force Dyad arc

BB-Rey wrote:I'm back!

I finally saw The Rise of Skywalker.

Honestly? I really enjoyed it on the surface for the most part at first but as soon as I started analyzing and everything it began to completely fall apart for me as it truly breaks canon, lore, and established character development!

Rey being a Palpatine makes *zero* sense. I admittedly didn't love the way The Last Jedi handled Rey Nobody but just seeing her parents was all the closure I needed as I just needed to be able to let go of George Lucas Star Wars. Honestly Rey Palpatine makes no sense. Rey going from a Nobody to Palpatine to kissing Ben to being alone again feels like total pandering!

I tried watching The Last Jedi yesterday and honestly I just wanted to cry when Ben told his honey "Why is the Force connecting us? You and I." So much wasted potential, ignoring, and pandering to dude bros! I even watched some of The Phantom Menace and Revenge of the Sith in context to certain now thanks to The Rise of Skywalker and was so ready to cry then too.

It should've ended with Rey and Ben visiting the Homestead but Rey telling him that she's had enough desert living experience. Then they set off and arrive at Naboo! A quiet reversal of Revenge of the Sith where we see Alderaan and the Homestead. It equally is a lovely nod to Anakin and Padme! Even Palpatine if you just insist on her being a Palpatine. It also ends where it all began!

The Rise of Skywalker is entertaining on the surface level in a lot of ways but as soon as you take into account the lore, canon, what happened before, and everything in between it falls completely apart!

I'm happy we at least got to see Leia training with and using her very own lightsaber and that she mentored Rey!

@BB-Rey

I am not so harsh as you are but I completely understand what you feel: to me, it's a fun movie to watch on the surface but that it's not satisfying enough for a closing movie. I genuinely spent a good time in the theaters, the second time even more than the second time. My issue ain't that it makes zero sense but that - like for the two previous movies - too many questions unanswered or things left opened for speculation in a way that it leads to opposite interpretations and division among viewers. As much as it brought a lot of fun with TFA, it leaves a taste of an unachieved task for TROS. The only thing I disagree with you is that Rey Palpatine makes sense to me but it could have been handled in a more coherent way.

@MaddieDove I'm glad Rey initiated the kiss, it's always how I saw it in my head. The discourse would be so much more permanently toxic if it were otherwise. And the story gave a darn about what Rey wanted for a moment.

@Moonjump05 @BB-Rey Of all the things wrong with TROS, the biggest one in terms of scale of impact is how it stomped all over the carefully crafted canon. Like virtually everything SW outside of IX was pointing in certain directions, while TROS acts like nothing else but itself exists. It's mind-blowing.

@Forsythia The entire way TROS handles Palpatine is so weird. Palpatine's changed or cut lines, Rey not having a ton of lines either, they both having rather non-specific dialogue, Luke talking to Rey about being a Palpatine as a reshoot, Rey not directly acknowledging her Palpatine lineage. Carelessness, or did some major change in the narrative and interactions go down?

Been seeing people talking about LOTR a lot these past couple days, and it seemed like a lot of people rewatched Fellowship this past year. Was meaning to get back to that trilogy, the books, including The Silmarillion, were so my thing in high school. Yes it's mostly a dude fest, and Tolkien doesn't always write women well, but there's something very sensitive and emotional about it which not many imitators picked up on.

Moonjump05 wrote:Thinking about how bad TRoS steamrolled over LFs ongoing discourse about how the Jedi order was flawed.

From the PT, to TCW and Rebels and finally TLJ we have this amazing discussion about power, morality, war, the Force, attachment and more. And TRoS just takes it and goes, lol Jedi good.

It's very disappointing.

@Moonjump05

Agree. I cannot help but posting this analysis again because I find that the person who wrote it nailed it better than J.J. delivered. The worst is that there are elements in the movies and the additions materials from the ST pushing the idea that the Skywalker legacy is much more than just destroying the Sith, which makes so much more sense than having for sole explicit goal to kill Palpatine for good. Unfortunately, all of that wasn't explicit enough in TROS, which of course doesn't make Anakin's achievement look good now.
https://twitter.com/ShortStormtroo1/status/1208791036970987522
https://www.shortstormtrooperreviews.com/2019/12/anakin-skywalkers-story-was-not.html