Official TROS Spoilers discussion

@reylo1992

I'm probably coming across as a bit harsh as I really did enjoy it when watching and I think I'll probably enjoy it even more the second time and any subsequent viewings but, I also think it just doesn't work for how it doesn't understand the source material of established lore and canon. It's not a bad movie and as it's own thing it's really good for so many interesting elements but as a conclusion to a story that spans three generations I don't think it works.

I don't think Rey being a Palpatine works as George always described him as the Devil. Plus there's no canon moments that hint at the possibility. If it weren't for established lore and canon I could probably see the potential for it but because we have that I can't exactly get behind it.

I wish we could get answers to questions from previous installments and having no true connection to the Prequels really disappointed me.


@californiagirl

Totally! I wish they had respected what came before better.

californiagirl wrote:@Forsythia The entire way TROS handles Palpatine is so weird. Palpatine's changed or cut lines, Rey not having a ton of lines either, they both having rather non-specific dialogue, Luke talking to Rey about being a Palpatine as a reshoot, Rey not directly acknowledging her Palpatine lineage. Carelessness, or did some major change in the narrative and interactions go down?

It's similar with all the Reylo scenes. Kylo talks to her but Rey has almost no lines or meaningless lines like "no" and it feels very unconnected. Either JJ was terrible at handling the dialogues, or a lot of Rey's lines were cut. If there were late changes to the story, I think it might have been easier to change/add lines for Kylo and Palpatine, because Kylo was wearing the mask and Palpatine's face is often not visible, so their lines could have been replaced with voiceovers. It's also very suspicious that redeemed and unmasked Ben Solo has no lines at all. If the entire Palpatine showdown was changed, maybe Ben's lines didn't make sense anymore and had to be cut.

Kessel wrote:

californiagirl wrote:

rawpowah wrote:So JJ and Terrio thought they were writing "Flowers in the Attic".

LOL! As crazy as it sounds, the circumstantial evidence is really adding up to the fact that JJ and Terrio subconsciously wanted Rey to be Luke and Leia’s daughter. Interesting how Luke and Leia ended up together at the end too, looking on with pride at Rey Skywalker.

I had a slight argument with someone called WebLurker on CBR forums today, regarding Rey being a Skywalker.
https://community.cbr.com/showthread.php?133139-Star-Wars-Episode-IX-Rise-of-Skywalker-(Spoilers)/page24
If you look at he/she's responses it shows this poster has no problem with Rey taking on the role of the new Skywalker.

Maybe it's just us reylos.

Forsythia wrote:

californiagirl wrote:@Forsythia The entire way TROS handles Palpatine is so weird. Palpatine's changed or cut lines, Rey not having a ton of lines either, they both having rather non-specific dialogue, Luke talking to Rey about being a Palpatine as a reshoot, Rey not directly acknowledging her Palpatine lineage. Carelessness, or did some major change in the narrative and interactions go down?

It's similar with all the Reylo scenes. Kylo talks to her but Rey has almost no lines or meaningless lines like "no" and it feels very unconnected. Either JJ was terrible at handling the dialogues, or a lot of Rey's lines were cut. If there were late changes to the story, I think it might have been easier to change/add lines for Kylo and Palpatine, because Kylo was wearing the mask and Palpatine's face is often not visible, so their lines could have been replaced with voiceovers. It's also very suspicious that redeemed and unmasked Ben Solo has no lines at all. If the entire Palpatine showdown was changed, maybe Ben's lines didn't make sense anymore and had to be cut.

@Forsythia

It's really strange considering the amount of screentime that Daisy has and how she insisted in interview that she talked and questioned things way more than in the previous episodes. Not surprised through that Palpatine's lines ain't the same in the trailer and the movie. I think that some of the lines from the movie were changed for the purpose of the trailer because they made more sense for marketing. I'm not so disturbed by that.

@motherofpearl1 I don't understand why non-Reylo people seem to be so accepting of Rey Fakewalker. When TLJ revealed Rey Nobody, everyone was whining that she wasn't a Skywalker and that they wouldn't care about her if she wasn't Luke's or Leia's kid. Now the last film kills off all Skywalkers and Rey Palpatine takes everything that belonged to the Skywalkers and takes their name (which doesn't even make sense), but people think it's a beautiful ending? How could anyone think killing off and replacing the Skywalkers with unrelated people in a series that is marketed as "the Skywalker Saga" is a good idea? If they want to see the adventures of non-Skywalkers there's enough room for these stories to be told in Spin-offs

Forsythia wrote:@motherofpearl1 I don't understand why non-Reylo people seem to be so accepting of Rey Fakewalker. When TLJ revealed Rey Nobody, everyone was whining that she wasn't a Skywalker and that they wouldn't care about her if she wasn't Luke's or Leia's kid. Now the last film kills off all Skywalkers and Rey Palpatine takes everything that belonged to the Skywalkers and takes their name (which doesn't even make sense), but people think it's a beautiful ending? How could anyone think killing off and replacing the Skywalkers with unrelated people in a series that is marketed as "the Skywalker Saga" is a good idea? If they want to see the adventures of non-Skywalkers there's enough room for these stories to be told in Spin-offs

That's exactly what I thought.

We can have shows like the Mandalorian featuring non members of the Skywalkers.

If there's one thing I'm genuinely baffled about, is how long term fans, like the one whining about Luke's portrayal in TLJ, haven't made much of a scene over Palpatine's heir taking on the name.

I keep coming back to Luke and Leia knowing she’s a palpatine but not telling her, and somehow that’s OK. But Luke and Leia has to know , because if they didn’t, Rey would just believing something Kylo Ren said Palpatine said. God it’s just so dumb.

@motherofpearl1
From the SW fans I know IRL, nobody likes or understands "Rey Skywalker". And it´s a range from fanatic dudebro to interested GA
Nobody of these people is a Reylo, some are anti-Reylo, and only one of my friends tends to liking Reylo.

ETA: This guy is also at the sunken place and (for example) of the opinion, that in TFA it was
1. not clear, that Finn and Rey were not ment to end as romantic couple
2. most of the tie-in in material interpreted them as future romantic couple (whut???)
3. Rose indicated clearly in the TLJ novel, that Finn has romantic feelings for Rey.
Whatever

I feel a slight bias to the FinnRey direction here. Maybe he just tries to rile you a little as a Reylo, who knows?

Some of the dark Rey stuff must’ve been done in reshoots because her makeup’s a lot more natural in the closeups, as opposed to in the body shots where her eyes are heavily lined in black.

[edit]

unicorn wrote:@motherofpearl1
From the SW fans I know IRL, nobody likes or understands "Rey Skywalker". And it´s a range from fanatic dudebro to interested GA
Nobody of these people is a Reylo, some are anti-Reylo, and only one of my friends tends to liking Reylo.

ETA: This guy is also at the sunken place and (for example) of the opinion, that in TFA it was
1. not clear, that Finn and Rey were not ment to end as romantic couple
2. most of the tie-in in material interpreted them as future romantic couple (whut???)
3. Rose indicated clearly in the TLJ novel, that Finn has romantic feelings for Rey.
Whatever

I feel a slight bias to the FinnRey direction here. Maybe he just tries to rile you a little as a Reylo, who knows?

Pretty sure he is, but it's best not to respond on that forum, as I've done so in the past and got banned!

I am actually quite proud to be part of a community which chooses to deal with disappointment by quietly donating money to AITAF instead of sending JJ death threats.
Which I will NEVER do..
I deal with my disappointment by ranting happily here, where it hurts no one. And if I'm mad at Rey it's got zero to do with Daisy or even Rey but how she's written
I'm actually sad they've done this to her character.

By the way, anyone ever remember the fanfic author loveyournightmare? She wrote Born in the Purple. Which had Rey Palpatine. And it worked.

Nah, I´m only a lurker there, I would never subscribe at this place and engage in arguments with these people, it´s not worth the trouble.
Yepp, that´s creative and adult behaviour, to transform something negative like disappointment about TROS into something positive, I love it.

I don´t know this fanfic, but that´s the sad thing, this whole palpatine stuff could have worked.
But not with this sloppy execution and cringeworthy "explanations". At least not for me.

Th best thing about it?
When My!o told Rey :
'My mother was the daughter of Vader. Your father was the son of Palpatine."

Which is why they should never have killed off Kylo.

I admit I'm also a little surprised that Rey having the Skywalker name, while the family itself is gone, isn't causing a bigger stir. Maybe a slightly confused shrug, but no really strong feelings outside certain groups. Maybe they don't consider her a "real" Skywalker so it doesn't matter so much, or got used to the idea of the family being dead because Luke died in TLJ, and everyone already knew Leia was going next. And her being a Palpatine is apparently more important than the Skywalkers being gone. It's all fine as long as she has a significant bloodline. Sigh. This is why I didn't love the lineage discussions, it automatically overshadows everything else.

Anyway, Lindsey Romain wrote about why Reylos are great. https://nerdist.com/article/star-wars-reylos-bright-spot/

I guess I can't really see the films in the same light now.
Watching the previous ones is going to be very hard
I doesn't make it easier that I don't really like Rey anymore.
Ben Solo dies for her. She cries for about one minute then promptly flies off to Tattooine and proudly calls herself S!kywalker.

It's as if he never existed.

I'll always be disappointed how they screwed up something which was:

1) Actually following through with the 9 chapter story George Lucas talked about doing back during the OT days with the backstories/histories for the character incorporated into Rey and Ben's story. Seriously can't f**king believe that 40 years later, they came this close to following through with the full story and then the final chapter blew up because management panicked over alienating potential theme park, cruise, and streaming service customers.

2) Literally tee'd up for the final act thanks to what Rian Johnson wrote and which had input from Lawrence Kasdan and Carrie Fisher, two of the best writers out of the original group of writers involved with the OT.

3) Had the opportunity to show actual evolution and growth beyond a cycle on repeat, for both the franchise and the in-universe narratives for the Force plot and social/political side.

4) Pitched as being hopeful and optimistic when you kill off a character who's been described as the Hope for the future and trap the other character who's said to be 'hopeful for a better life' in a desolate space fueled by somebody else's nostalgia.

However as I've said all this time, I was disappointed by the Special Edition changes and the PT enough to walk away from the franchise before. At least now I have three new movies (TFA, TLJ, & Solo are the trilogy as far as I'm concerned) to add to the two I already loved. TRoS doesn't change that, I'll definitely be curious if anything comes out about what exactly went wrong behind-the-scenes. But otherwise having watched enough soap operas, this feels like when a show changed writers (well, that did literally happen) and they start writing your favorite characters/plotlines in a way that's totally out of character and which goes against the logic/worldbuilding you'd been accustomed to. Rey Palpatine and Ben evaporating into the Disney Vault especially feel like a really bad soap opera plot because there's a new head writer and "we're going in another direction."  It's a very dumb plot point, undermining the message of finding one's own path/confidence and killing off probably the most complicated/iconic/loved out of the ST characters because they could have done novels at least afterwards, guaranteed money on the table. But as with Star Wars, I've also lived through bad soap opera writing, so I'll continue to love what I love and ignore the other parts.

I'm just disturbed by the amount of genuine nastiness coming out of this fi!on, whether it's a new wave of hatred from antis, John Boyega (whom I liked) acting as if he's been possessed by the spirit of Sheev Palpatine, or the tiresome 'if you don't like TROS you're stupid' attitude prevalent among some viewers.
I didn't like TROS and never wil, but I've got nothing against those who do.

My only bewilderment is why some SW fans are fine with the erasure of the Skywalker bloodline, and Rey taking up the name. I'm told that the message is one of hope, that no matter what you're bloodline is, is who you choose to be that counts. Fine in theory, but it's so terribly done.

I haven't been able to go and see TROS yet because just reading about it made me so angry, disappointed and upset that I'm not sure it will be worth it, not even to have a closure for a saga I fell in love with as a kid so long ago.

I have also taken a dislike to Rey and there's no way I'll ever go to see a movie about this character again. For me she is like a cuckoo because she ‘stole’ Kylo's place in his own family. I know he was the one who decided to leave the good path but it doesn't seem Han, Leia and Luke insisted much to make him come back. It seems as if he was doomed that horrible night the temple was destroyed, that his family gave up on him for what they assumed he did that night.

This reminds me of my nephew, whose father doesn't even call him for Christmas after he divorced the boy's mother. The kid is a teen now and says he blamed his father for everything and wasn't easy on him, but his father didn't insist much, didn't try hard enough to win him back.

I guess a SW movie shouldn't be taken literally and Ben, who didn't really destroy the temple or kill the young padawans, stands for boys like my nephew, who told his father he didn't want to see him again but would have liked him to fight for him, not for the custody, but to continue being part of his life.

I see Kylo and he reminds me of all the kids without a supporting family whatever the reasons, of all the people everybody gave up on after he/she made terrible mistakes and also of those who have been indoctrinated and/or groomed, the outsiders, also of those who for some reason don't belong, the ones considered inadequate by the majority.

Kylo is a young man seen as not good enough, impressive enough or beautiful enough, unsuitable for a family of legends in the eyes of everyone in universe and a huge number of viewers. It seems crazy but most male viewers disliked him in TFA because he was ugly. Really? Why should it matter?

When he took off his mask nobody knew who he was but many thought he was ugly? How crazy is this? Do villains have to be handsome? Why?

Anyway, until TLJ, many people didn't appreciate how interesting the character was and what a fine actor Adam is, many even noticed for the first time that he was attractive while watching TLJ. Again this is the story of someone who always swam against the current, someone fighting against adversity.  

Despite everything many women fell in love with the character and his dynamics with Rey, so the self considered "good fans" said this was because he was cute. What? Wasn't he ugly? The same who said he was so ugly also said female fans who liked him just liked him because Adam is hot? Come on, you can't have it both ways.

I have wondered why we like him, and his looks may play a role ( what about Leia's metallic bikini, fanboys?) but we love him because we tend to root for the underdogs and Kylo is ( I refuse to accept he's gone) the son of legends but never stopped being the outsider, the boy nobody wanted because he wasn't good enough. He always fell short to everyone's expectations but ours, and Rey's.

Of course she didn't accept his horrible behaviour, but in TLJ Rey accepted him as a person. She was the only one who "came back" for him, because Han went to the DS on a mission, not to look for his child in the first place.

Another thing I found very disturbing is how the child that wasn't good enough was replaced by a perfect child who is not even a kid but a grown woman. As if a son could ever be replaced. I am a mother and I know this is impossible. Not even another child of your own flesh and blood can ever replace the one you lost. Children are not disposable or could be replaced by another. Each of them is unique and loved not because of how pretty, successful or nice they are, you love them because they are your kids, even when they behave badly, fall short or disappoint you. You never give up on them, or this is what I want to believe as a daughter and as a mother too.

Rey is perfect, she never falls short, is extremely pretty and looks like a princess although she is a desert rat, everybody likes her immediatelly and loves her because she is so perfect, but what about those of us who have flaws, does it mean we are less deserving of love?

Does this mean the amount of love we get or give to others should depend on how nice and successful a person is? How disturbing is the message TROS sends spoiling the whole ST and even the whole saga if we must accept it as its closure?

Not even one's parents' love should be unconditional? Really? I refuse to accept this message. It's not for me. It's not SW, not the SW I have cherished all my life as something special.

A few days ago I saw TLJ again and I remembered why I used to like Rey. I could root for her there but not for the "usurper" JJ and Terrio have turned her into. Rian also made mistakes, like making Leia unsympathetic as a mother who forgave Poe after the horrible decisions he made but did nothing to reach her son. Maybe she couldn't forgive him for killing Han and this is understandable but the movie wastes time showing us how Poe learns how to be a leader instead of showing us the consequences of the Skywalkers' actions and how they felt after what Ben did to Han. They never showed how Leia felt about the personal tragedies in her life, she seemed mostly unaffectedly and this is very disturbing for me.

The ST touched really important themes, like falling from grace, finding one's way back, forgiveness and the power of love, but the writers didn't have the guts to explore them as they should. If they were too deep for a pew pew and explosions movie they shouldn't have suggested them in the first place. Perhaps they just went for this sinner, this prodigal son for shock value. The scene between Han and Ben in TFA belonged in a better movie, it felt like a Greek tragedy but in the end it didn't deliver the way it promised.

The ST could have been a tragedy (come on, it was the end of a legacy), or a beautiful love story impossible to forget. It could have been both too, but it was nothing because the unsatisfying "closure" made everything meaningless. I'm not sure I'll be able to see TFA again despite how much I enjoyed it in 2015. The problem is that now I know better and all the clues we saw and the tropes we analised were used in a careless meaningless way or to lead to an ending that was discarded later. What a pity! It could have been marvelous and it was just another forgettable blockbuster for fast consumption and nothing more.

It wouldn't matter if SW didn't mean so much to so many fans, including us female fans, because we were invested in the story as much as any fanboy and many of us expected so much more, TFA had so much promise!

Reynak wrote:I haven't been able to go and see TROS yet because just reading about it made me so angry, disappointed and upset that I'm not sure it will be worth it, not even to have a closure for a saga I fell in love with as a kid so long ago.

I have also taken a dislike to Rey and there's no way I'll ever go to see a movie about this character again. For me she is like a cuckoo because she ‘stole’ Kylo's place in his own family. I know he was the one who decided to leave the good path but it doesn't seem Han, Leia and Luke insisted much to make him come back. It seems as if he was doomed that horrible night the temple was destroyed, that his family gave up on him for what they assumed he did that night.

This reminds me of my nephew, whose father doesn't even call him for Christmas after he divorced the boy's mother. The kid is a teen now and says he blamed his father for everything and wasn't easy on him, but his father didn't insist much, didn't try hard enough to win him back.

I guess a SW movie shouldn't be taken literally and Ben, who didn't really destroy the temple or kill the young padawans, stands for boys like my nephew, who told his father he didn't want to see him again but would have liked him to fight for him, not for the custody, but to continue being part of his life.

I see Kylo and he reminds me of all the kids without a supporting family whatever the reasons, of all the people everybody gave up on after he/she made terrible mistakes and also of those who have been indoctrinated and/or groomed, the outsiders, those who for some reason don't belong, the ones considered inadequate by the majority.

Kylo is a young man seen as not good enough, impressive enough or beautiful enough, unsuitable for a family of legeds in the eyes of everyone in universe and a huge number of viewers. It seems crazy but most male viewers disliked him in TFA because he was ugly. Really? Why should it matter?

When he took of his mask nobody knew who he was but many thought he was ugly? How crazy is this? Do villains have to be handsome? Why?

Anyway, until TLJ, many people didn't appreciate how interesting the character was and what a fine actor Adam is, many even noticed for the first time that he was attractive while watching TLJ. Again this is the story of someone who always swam against the current, someone fighting against adversity.  

Despite everything many women fell in love with the character and his dynamics with Rey, so the self considered "good fans" said this was because he was cute. What? Wasn't he ugly? The same who said he was so ugly also said female fans who liked him just liked him because Adam is hot? Come on, you can't have it both ways.

I have wondered why we like him, and his looks may play a role ( what about Leia's metallic bikini, fanboys?) but we love him because we tend to root for the underdogs and Kylo is ( I refuse to accept he's gone) the son of legends but never stopped being the outsider, the boy nobody wanted because he wasn't good enough. He always fell short to everyone's expectations but ours, and Rey's.

Of course she didn't accept his horrible behaviour, but in TLJ Rey accepted him as a person. She was the only one who "came back" for him, because Han went to the DS on a mission, not to look for his child in the first place.

Another thing I found very disturbing is how the child that wasn't good enough was replaced by a perfect child who is not even a kid but a grown woman. As if a son could ever be replaced. I am a mother and I know this is impossible. Not even another child of your own flesh and blood can ever replace the one you lost. Children are not disposable or could be replaced by another. Each of them is unique and loved not because of how pretty, successful or nice they are, you love them because they are your kids, even when they behave badly, fall short or disappoint you. You never give up on them, or this is what I want to believe as a daughter and as a mother too.

Rey is perfect, she never falls short, is extremely pretty and looks like a princess although she is a desert rat, everybody likes her immediatelly and loves her because she is so perfect, but what about those of us who have flaws, does it mean we are less deserving of love?

Does this mean the amount of love we get or give to others should depend on how nice and successful a person is? How disturbing is the message TROS sends spoiling the whole ST and even the whole saga if we must accept it as its closure?

Not even one's parents' love should be inconditional? Really? I refuse to accept this message. It's not for me. It's not SW, not the SW I have cherished all my life as something special.

A few days ago I saw TLJ again and and I remembered why I used to like Rey. I could root for her there but not for the "usurper" JJ and Terrio have turned her into. Rian also made mistakes, like making Leia unsympathetic as a mother who forgave Poe after the horrible decisions he made but did nothing to reach her son. Maybe she couldn't forgive him for killing Han and this is understandable but the movie wastes time showing us how Poe learns how to be a leader instead of showing us the consequences of the Skywalkers' actions and how they felt after what Ben did to Han. They never showed how Leia felt about the personal tragedies in her life, she seemed mostly unaffectedly and this is very disturbing for me.

The ST touched really important themes, like falling from grace, finding one's way back, forgiveness and the power of love, but the writers didn't have the guts to explore them as they should. If they were too deep for a pew pew and explosions movie they shouldn't have suggested them in the first place. Perhaps they just went for this sinner, this prodigal son for shock value. The scene between Han and Ben in TFA belonged in a better movie, it felt like a Greek tragedy but in the end it didn't deliver they way it promised.

The ST could have been a tragedy (come on, it was the end of a legacy), or a beautiful love story impossible to forget. It could have been both too, but it was nothing because the unsatisfying "closure" made everything meaningless. I'm not sure I'll be able to see TFA again despite how much I enjoyed it in 2015. The problem is that now I know better and all the clues we saw and the tropes we analised were used in a careless meaningless way or to lead to an ending that was discarded later. What a pity! It could have been marvelous and it was just another forgettable blockbuster for fast consumption and nothing more.

It wouldn't matter if SW didn't mean so much to so many fans, including us female fans, because we were invested in the story as much as any fanboy and many of us expected so much more, TFA had so much promise!

@Reynak

Bravo. I couldn't have put it better, especially the bolded (my emphasis).

Reynak wrote:I haven't been able to go and see TROS yet because just reading about it made me so angry, disappointed and upset that I'm not sure it will be worth it, not even to have a closure for a saga I fell in love with as a kid so long ago.

I have also taken a dislike to Rey and there's no way I'll ever go to see a movie about this character again. For me she is like a cuckoo because she ‘stole’ Kylo's place in his own family. I know he was the one who decided to leave the good path but it doesn't seem Han, Leia and Luke insisted much to make him come back. It seems as if he was doomed that horrible night the temple was destroyed, that his family gave up on him for what they assumed he did that night.

This reminds me of my nephew, whose father doesn't even call him for Christmas after he divorced the boy's mother. The kid is a teen now and says he blamed his father for everything and wasn't easy on him, but his father didn't insist much, didn't try hard enough to win him back.

I guess a SW movie shouldn't be taken literally and Ben, who didn't really destroy the temple or kill the young padawans, stands for boys like my nephew, who told his father he didn't want to see him again but would have liked him to fight for him, not for the custody, but to continue being part of his life.

I see Kylo and he reminds me of all the kids without a supporting family whatever the reasons, of all the people everybody gave up on after he/she made terrible mistakes and also of those who have been indoctrinated and/or groomed, the outsiders, those who for some reason don't belong, the ones considered inadequate by the majority.

Kylo is a young man seen as not good enough, impressive enough or beautiful enough, unsuitable for a family of legeds in the eyes of everyone in universe and a huge number of viewers. It seems crazy but most male viewers disliked him in TFA because he was ugly. Really? Why should it matter?

When he took of his mask nobody knew who he was but many thought he was ugly? How crazy is this? Do villains have to be handsome? Why?

Anyway, until TLJ, many people didn't appreciate how interesting the character was and what a fine actor Adam is, many even noticed for the first time that he was attractive while watching TLJ. Again this is the story of someone who always swam against the current, someone fighting against adversity.  

Despite everything many women fell in love with the character and his dynamics with Rey, so the self considered "good fans" said this was because he was cute. What? Wasn't he ugly? The same who said he was so ugly also said female fans who liked him just liked him because Adam is hot? Come on, you can't have it both ways.

I have wondered why we like him, and his looks may play a role ( what about Leia's metallic bikini, fanboys?) but we love him because we tend to root for the underdogs and Kylo is ( I refuse to accept he's gone) the son of legends but never stopped being the outsider, the boy nobody wanted because he wasn't good enough. He always fell short to everyone's expectations but ours, and Rey's.

Of course she didn't accept his horrible behaviour, but in TLJ Rey accepted him as a person. She was the only one who "came back" for him, because Han went to the DS on a mission, not to look for his child in the first place.

Another thing I found very disturbing is how the child that wasn't good enough was replaced by a perfect child who is not even a kid but a grown woman. As if a son could ever be replaced. I am a mother and I know this is impossible. Not even another child of your own flesh and blood can ever replace the one you lost. Children are not disposable or could be replaced by another. Each of them is unique and loved not because of how pretty, successful or nice they are, you love them because they are your kids, even when they behave badly, fall short or disappoint you. You never give up on them, or this is what I want to believe as a daughter and as a mother too.

Rey is perfect, she never falls short, is extremely pretty and looks like a princess although she is a desert rat, everybody likes her immediatelly and loves her because she is so perfect, but what about those of us who have flaws, does it mean we are less deserving of love?

Does this mean the amount of love we get or give to others should depend on how nice and successful a person is? How disturbing is the message TROS sends spoiling the whole ST and even the whole saga if we must accept it as its closure?

Not even one's parents' love should be inconditional? Really? I refuse to accept this message. It's not for me. It's not SW, not the SW I have cherished all my life as something special.

A few days ago I saw TLJ again and and I remembered why I used to like Rey. I could root for her there but not for the "usurper" JJ and Terrio have turned her into. Rian also made mistakes, like making Leia unsympathetic as a mother who forgave Poe after the horrible decisions he made but did nothing to reach her son. Maybe she couldn't forgive him for killing Han and this is understandable but the movie wastes time showing us how Poe learns how to be a leader instead of showing us the consequences of the Skywalkers' actions and how they felt after what Ben did to Han. They never showed how Leia felt about the personal tragedies in her life, she seemed mostly unaffectedly and this is very disturbing for me.

The ST touched really important themes, like falling from grace, finding one's way back, forgiveness and the power of love, but the writers didn't have the guts to explore them as they should. If they were too deep for a pew pew and explosions movie they shouldn't have suggested them in the first place. Perhaps they just went for this sinner, this prodigal son for shock value. The scene between Han and Ben in TFA belonged in a better movie, it felt like a Greek tragedy but in the end it didn't deliver the way it promised.

The ST could have been a tragedy (come on, it was the end of a legacy), or a beautiful love story impossible to forget. It could have been both too, but it was nothing because the unsatisfying "closure" made everything meaningless. I'm not sure I'll be able to see TFA again despite how much I enjoyed it in 2015. The problem is that now I know better and all the clues we saw and the tropes we analised were used in a careless meaningless way or to lead to an ending that was discarded later. What a pity! It could have been marvelous and it was just another forgettable blockbuster for fast consumption and nothing more.

It wouldn't matter if SW didn't mean so much to so many fans, including us female fans, because we were invested in the story as much as any fanboy and many of us expected so much more, TFA had so much promise!

@Reynak

The weird thing about the Kylo looks thing is that I remember being legitimately surprised (and still am) about people calling him ugly when he took his mask off. Adam definitely doesn’t look like your typical generic bland hot white guy, but he does look really young and good in TFA, to the point where I’d even call him pretty, with all those beautifully coiffed curls and he had a very regal bearing. He doesn’t look like that in any of his other movies, even the other two ST ones.

Anyway, watched Knives Out yesterday, and what a great movie! Rian Johnson has done it again. Smart, airtight (subversive hehe) script, with a great ensemble of colourful characters. Beautiful production design. This movie is seriously healing after the garbage that was TROS. The gulf in quality between this and TROS is honestly hilarious, and also features a great heroine with a great arc, something TROS was majorly lacking. Rian is doing a sequel, is it too much to hope that he casts Adam?

Reynak wrote:I haven't been able to go and see TROS yet because just reading about it made me so angry, disappointed and upset that I'm not sure it will be worth it, not even to have a closure for a saga I fell in love with as a kid so long ago.

I have also taken a dislike to Rey and there's no way I'll ever go to see a movie about this character again. For me she is like a cuckoo because she ‘stole’ Kylo's place in his own family. I know he was the one who decided to leave the good path but it doesn't seem Han, Leia and Luke insisted much to make him come back. It seems as if he was doomed that horrible night the temple was destroyed, that his family gave up on him for what they assumed he did that night.

This reminds me of my nephew, whose father doesn't even call him for Christmas after he divorced the boy's mother. The kid is a teen now and says he blamed his father for everything and wasn't easy on him, but his father didn't insist much, didn't try hard enough to win him back.

I guess a SW movie shouldn't be taken literally and Ben, who didn't really destroy the temple or kill the young padawans, stands for boys like my nephew, who told his father he didn't want to see him again but would have liked him to fight for him, not for the custody, but to continue being part of his life.

I see Kylo and he reminds me of all the kids without a supporting family whatever the reasons, of all the people everybody gave up on after he/she made terrible mistakes and also of those who have been indoctrinated and/or groomed, the outsiders, also of those who for some reason don't belong, the ones considered inadequate by the majority.

Kylo is a young man seen as not good enough, impressive enough or beautiful enough, unsuitable for a family of legends in the eyes of everyone in universe and a huge number of viewers. It seems crazy but most male viewers disliked him in TFA because he was ugly. Really? Why should it matter?

When he took off his mask nobody knew who he was but many thought he was ugly? How crazy is this? Do villains have to be handsome? Why?

Anyway, until TLJ, many people didn't appreciate how interesting the character was and what a fine actor Adam is, many even noticed for the first time that he was attractive while watching TLJ. Again this is the story of someone who always swam against the current, someone fighting against adversity.  

Despite everything many women fell in love with the character and his dynamics with Rey, so the self considered "good fans" said this was because he was cute. What? Wasn't he ugly? The same who said he was so ugly also said female fans who liked him just liked him because Adam is hot? Come on, you can't have it both ways.

I have wondered why we like him, and his looks may play a role ( what about Leia's metallic bikini, fanboys?) but we love him because we tend to root for the underdogs and Kylo is ( I refuse to accept he's gone) the son of legends but never stopped being the outsider, the boy nobody wanted because he wasn't good enough. He always fell short to everyone's expectations but ours, and Rey's.

Of course she didn't accept his horrible behaviour, but in TLJ Rey accepted him as a person. She was the only one who "came back" for him, because Han went to the DS on a mission, not to look for his child in the first place.

Another thing I found very disturbing is how the child that wasn't good enough was replaced by a perfect child who is not even a kid but a grown woman. As if a son could ever be replaced. I am a mother and I know this is impossible. Not even another child of your own flesh and blood can ever replace the one you lost. Children are not disposable or could be replaced by another. Each of them is unique and loved not because of how pretty, successful or nice they are, you love them because they are your kids, even when they behave badly, fall short or disappoint you. You never give up on them, or this is what I want to believe as a daughter and as a mother too.

Rey is perfect, she never falls short, is extremely pretty and looks like a princess although she is a desert rat, everybody likes her immediatelly and loves her because she is so perfect, but what about those of us who have flaws, does it mean we are less deserving of love?

Does this mean the amount of love we get or give to others should depend on how nice and successful a person is? How disturbing is the message TROS sends spoiling the whole ST and even the whole saga if we must accept it as its closure?

Not even one's parents' love should be unconditional? Really? I refuse to accept this message. It's not for me. It's not SW, not the SW I have cherished all my life as something special.

A few days ago I saw TLJ again and I remembered why I used to like Rey. I could root for her there but not for the "usurper" JJ and Terrio have turned her into. Rian also made mistakes, like making Leia unsympathetic as a mother who forgave Poe after the horrible decisions he made but did nothing to reach her son. Maybe she couldn't forgive him for killing Han and this is understandable but the movie wastes time showing us how Poe learns how to be a leader instead of showing us the consequences of the Skywalkers' actions and how they felt after what Ben did to Han. They never showed how Leia felt about the personal tragedies in her life, she seemed mostly unaffectedly and this is very disturbing for me.

The ST touched really important themes, like falling from grace, finding one's way back, forgiveness and the power of love, but the writers didn't have the guts to explore them as they should. If they were too deep for a pew pew and explosions movie they shouldn't have suggested them in the first place. Perhaps they just went for this sinner, this prodigal son for shock value. The scene between Han and Ben in TFA belonged in a better movie, it felt like a Greek tragedy but in the end it didn't deliver the way it promised.

The ST could have been a tragedy (come on, it was the end of a legacy), or a beautiful love story impossible to forget. It could have been both too, but it was nothing because the unsatisfying "closure" made everything meaningless. I'm not sure I'll be able to see TFA again despite how much I enjoyed it in 2015. The problem is that now I know better and all the clues we saw and the tropes we analised were used in a careless meaningless way or to lead to an ending that was discarded later. What a pity! It could have been marvelous and it was just another forgettable blockbuster for fast consumption and nothing more.

It wouldn't matter if SW didn't mean so much to so many fans, including us female fans, because we were invested in the story as much as any fanboy and many of us expected so much more, TFA had so much promise!

Thank you for putting exactly how I feel so perfectly.

TLJ wasn't perfect but it was a masterpiece compared to TROS. The more I look back on it, the more I'm astonished at how a genuinely bad movie it is. The script was corny, the humour jarring, and some scenes were so awful they were embarrassing.
Take for example Lando turning up with the fleet at the last moment. It should have been on a par with the arrival of the Rohirrim in The Return of the King. But instead it just made me cringe.
Worse, why do everyone come off as so hard to like? Finn is irritating. Poe is pompous. The Resistance are annoying. And Rey....

I agree with you regarding Rey. At the present moment I just can't stand her. She's too perfect. And I am so very very glad I walked out before THAT ending..
Someone downloaded it on YouTube and it was worse than I thought.
Leia and Luke standing smiling proudly. They looked like Cersei and Jaime Lannister. Where was the Leia who told Han she wanted her son back? Where was the Luke who told his nephew:"I failed you, Ben. I'm sorry"
It's funny but despite Mark's criticism at his character arc in TLJ, I had the strongest impression he wasn't really happy to be back - compared to his amazing performance in TLJ, he seemed to be phoning it in. So did Ian (McDiarmid).

Ironically they did everything to destroy Kylo, from reducing his screen time and dialogue to putting him back in that darn helmet. But it didn't work. Adam is the most memorable character in that film - in the whole trilogy, in fact.
And they couldn't replace him with a thousand Rey's.

Where IS Mark, btw? I mean, his cringy scene in TROS... I guess he's happier with it than his scenes/arc in TLJ, huh? No noticeable bellyaching?

motherofpearl1 wrote:

Reynak wrote:I haven't been able to go and see TROS yet because just reading about it made me so angry, disappointed and upset that I'm not sure it will be worth it, not even to have a closure for a saga I fell in love with as a kid so long ago.

I have also taken a dislike to Rey and there's no way I'll ever go to see a movie about this character again. For me she is like a cuckoo because she ‘stole’ Kylo's place in his own family. I know he was the one who decided to leave the good path but it doesn't seem Han, Leia and Luke insisted much to make him come back. It seems as if he was doomed that horrible night the temple was destroyed, that his family gave up on him for what they assumed he did that night.

This reminds me of my nephew, whose father doesn't even call him for Christmas after he divorced the boy's mother. The kid is a teen now and says he blamed his father for everything and wasn't easy on him, but his father didn't insist much, didn't try hard enough to win him back.

I guess a SW movie shouldn't be taken literally and Ben, who didn't really destroy the temple or kill the young padawans, stands for boys like my nephew, who told his father he didn't want to see him again but would have liked him to fight for him, not for the custody, but to continue being part of his life.

I see Kylo and he reminds me of all the kids without a supporting family whatever the reasons, of all the people everybody gave up on after he/she made terrible mistakes and also of those who have been indoctrinated and/or groomed, the outsiders, also of those who for some reason don't belong, the ones considered inadequate by the majority.

Kylo is a young man seen as not good enough, impressive enough or beautiful enough, unsuitable for a family of legends in the eyes of everyone in universe and a huge number of viewers. It seems crazy but most male viewers disliked him in TFA because he was ugly. Really? Why should it matter?

When he took off his mask nobody knew who he was but many thought he was ugly? How crazy is this? Do villains have to be handsome? Why?

Anyway, until TLJ, many people didn't appreciate how interesting the character was and what a fine actor Adam is, many even noticed for the first time that he was attractive while watching TLJ. Again this is the story of someone who always swam against the current, someone fighting against adversity.  

Despite everything many women fell in love with the character and his dynamics with Rey, so the self considered "good fans" said this was because he was cute. What? Wasn't he ugly? The same who said he was so ugly also said female fans who liked him just liked him because Adam is hot? Come on, you can't have it both ways.

I have wondered why we like him, and his looks may play a role ( what about Leia's metallic bikini, fanboys?) but we love him because we tend to root for the underdogs and Kylo is ( I refuse to accept he's gone) the son of legends but never stopped being the outsider, the boy nobody wanted because he wasn't good enough. He always fell short to everyone's expectations but ours, and Rey's.

Of course she didn't accept his horrible behaviour, but in TLJ Rey accepted him as a person. She was the only one who "came back" for him, because Han went to the DS on a mission, not to look for his child in the first place.

Another thing I found very disturbing is how the child that wasn't good enough was replaced by a perfect child who is not even a kid but a grown woman. As if a son could ever be replaced. I am a mother and I know this is impossible. Not even another child of your own flesh and blood can ever replace the one you lost. Children are not disposable or could be replaced by another. Each of them is unique and loved not because of how pretty, successful or nice they are, you love them because they are your kids, even when they behave badly, fall short or disappoint you. You never give up on them, or this is what I want to believe as a daughter and as a mother too.

Rey is perfect, she never falls short, is extremely pretty and looks like a princess although she is a desert rat, everybody likes her immediatelly and loves her because she is so perfect, but what about those of us who have flaws, does it mean we are less deserving of love?

Does this mean the amount of love we get or give to others should depend on how nice and successful a person is? How disturbing is the message TROS sends spoiling the whole ST and even the whole saga if we must accept it as its closure?

Not even one's parents' love should be unconditional? Really? I refuse to accept this message. It's not for me. It's not SW, not the SW I have cherished all my life as something special.

A few days ago I saw TLJ again and I remembered why I used to like Rey. I could root for her there but not for the "usurper" JJ and Terrio have turned her into. Rian also made mistakes, like making Leia unsympathetic as a mother who forgave Poe after the horrible decisions he made but did nothing to reach her son. Maybe she couldn't forgive him for killing Han and this is understandable but the movie wastes time showing us how Poe learns how to be a leader instead of showing us the consequences of the Skywalkers' actions and how they felt after what Ben did to Han. They never showed how Leia felt about the personal tragedies in her life, she seemed mostly unaffectedly and this is very disturbing for me.

The ST touched really important themes, like falling from grace, finding one's way back, forgiveness and the power of love, but the writers didn't have the guts to explore them as they should. If they were too deep for a pew pew and explosions movie they shouldn't have suggested them in the first place. Perhaps they just went for this sinner, this prodigal son for shock value. The scene between Han and Ben in TFA belonged in a better movie, it felt like a Greek tragedy but in the end it didn't deliver the way it promised.

The ST could have been a tragedy (come on, it was the end of a legacy), or a beautiful love story impossible to forget. It could have been both too, but it was nothing because the unsatisfying "closure" made everything meaningless. I'm not sure I'll be able to see TFA again despite how much I enjoyed it in 2015. The problem is that now I know better and all the clues we saw and the tropes we analised were used in a careless meaningless way or to lead to an ending that was discarded later. What a pity! It could have been marvelous and it was just another forgettable blockbuster for fast consumption and nothing more.

It wouldn't matter if SW didn't mean so much to so many fans, including us female fans, because we were invested in the story as much as any fanboy and many of us expected so much more, TFA had so much promise!

Thank you for putting exactly how I feel so perfectly.

TLJ wasn't perfect but it was a masterpiece compared to TROS. The more I look back on it, the more I'm astonished at how a genuinely bad movie it is. The script was corny, the humour jarring, and some scenes were so awful they were embarrassing.
Take for example Lando turning up with the fleet at the last moment. It should have been on a par with the arrival of the Rohirrim in The Return of the King. But instead it just made me cringe.
Worse, why do everyone come off as so hard to like? Finn is irritating. Poe is pompous. The Resistance are annoying. And Rey....

I agree with you regarding Rey. At the present moment I just can't stand her. She's too perfect. And I am so very very glad I walked out before THAT ending..
Someone downloaded it on YouTube and it was worse than I thought.
Leia and Luke standing smiling proudly. They looked like Cersei and Jaime Lannister. Where was the Leia who told Han she wanted her son back? Where was the Luke who told his nephew:"I failed you, Ben. I'm sorry"
It's funny but despite Mark's criticism at his character arc in TLJ, I had the strongest impression he wasn't really happy to be back - compared to his amazing performance in TLJ, he seemed to be phoning it in. So did Ian (McDiarmid).

Ironically they did everything to destroy Kylo, from reducing his screen time and dialogue to putting him back in that darn helmet. But it didn't work. Adam is the most memorable character in that film - in the whole trilogy, in fact.
And they couldn't replace him with a thousand Rey's.

@motherofpearl1

In fact I what made me write this post was the one where you said you didn't like Rey now, because it's the same with me. Id haven't seen the movie yet because I am afraid I may start disliking Luke and Leia too and that would be too much to stomach.

Who are these guys to "destroy our childhood"? I know this is what many toxic fans said and were ridiculed for but in the end this is what JJ and T have done to us by killing all the Skywalkers and also their legacy and their legend. They are better than other movie heoroes because they had a heart and this is lost after TROS.

If Luke and Leia thought Ben was disposable, and not only that, but that another person, a better person, could replace him, their hearts have turned to stone and I can't love them any more.

The future seemed bright after the OT, how does it look now? Bleak and so sad!

I couldn't care less for what happens to the fake trio in future movies or comics, the real heart of the story revolved around Ben's fall.

What can be more important than bringing one's lost child back home after he's been lost to you? Another death star perhaps, a bigger one?

While SK was being destroyed JJ said the important thing was Kylo and Rey's duel. At what stage did he change his mind? Because otherwise he played with us, really dirty.

@Reynak

The moment he let fear of dude bros cloud his judgements. I enjoy The Force Awakens (mostly just Reylo in retrospect) but it's very clear he has a memo of pleasing. "This will begin to make things right." is a clear slight at the Prequels despite what they say. I mean I can sort of give The Force Awakens a pass for some pandering as it had to bring back fans who were disappointed by these films but then just to completely scrap any progression The Last Jedi took in moving the story forward is disgraceful. I may not love Luke tossing the lightsaber, certain humour, or bits of dialogue but compared to The Rise of Skywalker these things don't even bother me as much anymore as they don't entirely break lore and canon like half of what we just got. The problem? He forgot that he had a responsibility to wrap up a story that respects all of it and doesn't pander. I mean some of the pandering could've worked like Palpatine returning but no explanation on his return and one off lines of defeating the First Order is just unacceptable. Finn even could've lead a stormtrooper revolt and told Rey he's Force sensitive. He could've had Jannah and even Rose's help as she's established to know Intel with using the computers we saw baby Finn on in The Force Awakens. Instead it's like Rose never existed and Finn does nothing. This would've been a perfect nod to child Anakin wanting to come back to free all the slaves. The list goes on and on. The short answer? Pandering gets you nowhere and only leads to wasted potential from realising anything new.

Dar-ren19 wrote:Where IS Mark, btw? I mean, his cringy scene in TROS... I guess he's happier with it than his scenes/arc in TLJ, huh? No noticeable bellyaching?

@Dar-ren19

I’ve been wondering this myself. No praise, no complaints. Maybe he’s been told not to say ANYTHING about it. I can’t believe that he’d be happy with this ending though... all Skywalkers dead and Rey Palpatine the new heir?

What was the point of the Skywalkers in the end? Their story is just an overly drawn out tragedy now.

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:

Dar-ren19 wrote:Where IS Mark, btw? I mean, his cringy scene in TROS... I guess he's happier with it than his scenes/arc in TLJ, huh? No noticeable bellyaching?

@Dar-ren19

I’ve been wondering this myself. No praise, no complaints. Maybe he’s been told not to say ANYTHING about it. I can’t believe that he’d be happy with this ending though... all Skywalkers dead and Rey Palpatine the new heir?

What was the point of the Skywalkers in the end? Their story is just an overly drawn out tragedy now.

@Cowgirlsamurai

I have no proof but I don’t think MH is happy with TROS. He probably just decided to take the high road this time around after the bruising experience with TLJ. As far as I can see MH has barely mentioned TROS. He did tweet high praise for Knives Out and Rian though. I do believe that despite MH’s problems with TLJ, he respects RJ and has more time for him as a filmmaker than JJ. MH’s “jokey” comments about what JJ did with Luke in TFA always seemed to have an edge to them. In fact much of MH’s unhappiness appeared to stem from him not getting to work with Harrison (and Carrie) in TFA. At least he got to work with Carrie in TLJ.