Official TROS Spoilers discussion

So many good points!

@Sacrebleu wrote:And I say this as someone who saw TROS 4 times and enjoyed it.  Nevertheless, it's flawed.

@Sacrebleu Thanks! I feel less alone. The sad reality is that one can find a bad movie enjoyable while not enjoying the story of a good movie. That's the fundamental difference between those who dislike dislike TROS and the ones who dislike TLJ. I might not have enjoyed the story of TLJ at first, it's objectively a good movie that can stand on its own while inserting itself coherently in the story. As someone who watched TROS 3 times, it's clear to me that it's a fast food movie: it feels  good while consuming it despite the dubious taste, leaves you unsatiated afterwards despite ton of extra sauce and make you feel sick while processing about its components.  

@Piper Maru wrote:Yes, usually everything in narratives are plot devices. But a good storyteller integrates them naturally in the narrative. JJ and Terrio didn't. One of the biggest problems with TROS is that the audience can easily call out the film for its problems, because the ludic aspect is barely there. We *know* what they're trying to do, we know it's bs, we know it makes no sense, and yet they shove it down our throats. The trust between audience-storyteller is broken.

At that point, I don't know what to think about J.J anymore. I never saw any of his other movies/series so I really can't tell what kind of director he is but I genuinely liked analyzing TFA. From what I understand, he is certainly the kind of guy who is good to hire for a kick-off but certainly not for a landing. On the one hand, he seems to be aware how bad TROS is since he "joked" in two interview that those who like TROS have dubious taste. On the other hand, I literally facepalmed when I saw these tweets about his way of working. I mean, WTF J.J.: "It doesn't matter. You say it as fast as possible and no one is gonna care"
https://twitter.com/BayosHarmonicas/status/1210250363015696384
https://twitter.com/MarienneMaid/status/1230968699714072577

@vaderito wrote:TROS is terrible on so many levels but when it comes to Reylo it plays like a really bizarre Titanic. He gives up his place (in life) so that she could live, then she takes his family name...except the twist is she does it to honor the Lannister twins.

My impression is that they tried to make reconcile two movies in one for two opposite audience . On the one hand, they made a very obvious storytelling for the GA/old fanbros who just wanna enjoy a good old recipe without looking deep into things. On the other hand, they were aware that there is another part of this fandom - among them a lot of Bendemptionist/Reylo - who like making metas about the (romantic) subtext based on subtle clues. I can't believe that Rey's stare at the  Pasaana kids, the motherly behavior with the droids, the metaphorical marriage on Exegol, the Rey Dawson callbacks  and all thes dark blue scenes were just coincidences. So I suppose that they thought that our part of the fandom would be happy with all these subtle clues + getting the Reylo kiss without raising voice. They probably didn't expect that the obvious narrative would give such a bad vibe about the entire Skywalker arc that it would backfire from all sides, especially ours. What you show on screen is what remains enshrined in the mind of the viewer. You know you screw up when the ending scene of Titanic feels more uplifting than Star Wars even if Rey and Kylo have technically high chances to be reunited in one way or another contrary to Jack & Rose. Even non-"oscarized" filmakers of K-dramas  seem to understand better how important it is to have a cathartic ending scene when the outcome is bittersweet/sad/tragic. If not, you leave your audience uhurt and unsatiated because you didn't enable them to heal and move on peacefully.  Just look at the ending scene of Scarlet Heart Ryeo and you know it's true:

@Saracene wrote:As far as I can tell, the only purpose of the dyad is so that Palpatine can restore himself so that Rey can face him off when he’s in full strength?

That was probably their way of thinking but the message is even worse. The very idea of the dyad is totally ruined once you realize that its only purpose was for the last Skywalker to stand like 5 seconds, only for his body to be used as a mean to resurrect Palpatines grandfather and granddaughter. Pretty sure too that a lot of people were too distracted/distressed by what happened to the last Skywalker to really focus about what Rey was achieving

@motherpfpearl1 wrote: It was impossible to identify with this 'new' Rey - and having her forget Ben Solo's sacrifice for her was the last straw. She didn't mourn, she was happy sliding down sand dunes on a desert world identical to the one she'd grown up on and had nothing but bad memories about.

The fact was, they created an antagonist who was far better than the protagonist. No wonder quite a few members of the GA have said they'd rather Rey had died instead of Kylo. That's what they've done to her.

I partly agree with you on that one. On the one hand, I refuse to say that Rey isn't an interesting character who can't have a story on her own. I genuinely think that she is as complex as Kylo but that as audience we ain't used to relate to female complex characters and that we ain't as indulgent with their agressive side as we are with male characters. When I see some Twitter posts, it's like TROS Kylo is just a poor baby who deserves all the love in the worlds while TROS Rey is a mean agressive girl who attacks him without any reason. It's not like in a few hours she literally goes through learning about her lineage, witnessing her parent's death, finding out out that she is Kylo's dyad, all of that from his own mouth. I read an amazing thread on Twitter from someone who perfectly encapsulated how complex she is if one really want to invest attention in her character. The sad reality is that Rey shows that a lot of male fans ain't ready yet to relate to/invest in a bad*** complex heroine while everybody understandably is used to relate to/invest in a bad*** complex antihero. As a female fan especially, it's understandable to be more interested in that kind of byronic character. I'm saying that as someone who invested like 80% of my content on Kylo.  IMO TROS Rey was pushed forward while other characters were pushed backward to the extreme because they feared after TLJ that giving Rey and Kylo the same importance and nearly the same amount of screentime would result in: 1) her being sidelined by Kylo in most people's minds 2) them being backlashed by the #MeToo culture for that. That being said, I completely share your frustration because the biggest fear I have repeatedly expressed over the years is that the coherency of the story, would be thrown away for the sake of a politically woke message. Whether we like it or not, it's becoming a tendency in Hollywood to 1) push forward other forms of love than romantic love 2) have women must go their own independent path. I absolutely don't mind a message like that if it's coherent with the story. I love how the Little Women inserted a story in the story and modified the original ending in a way that fits what the real author's life was. It is openly feminist but not in a way that you feel it's more important to pass a political message than telling a coherent story. All different message sent by the sisters are valid and fit with their characters, i.e. Jo: "I'm so sick of people saying that love is all what women are fit for" vs. Meg: "Just because my dreams are different than yours, it doesn't mean they are unimportant". The frustrating thing is that TROS Rey could have been such a meaningful example that there can be an between. She could have ended up as a good mix of Jo and Meg, being a strong independant woman while raising a family with love. TROS is poisonous  because of this Madonna/***** complex pointed out by several people on Twitter posts: a wild woman portrayed as a hot chick in bikini, that men would want to have in bed but not as good family mother vs. a girl portrayed as a virgin nun, that men would want to have as daughter but who shouldn't be desirable for other men. And beyond that, it's poisonous because romantic love in general is portrayed as problematic so nobody ends up romantically involved in the end.

Piper Maru wrote:

snufkin wrote:
3) Trevorrow's elevation from being Brad Bird's "he reminds me of me" Sundance protege to getting the keys for IX handed over to him on a ridiculously thin resume back in 2015, even before TFA came out, meant that IX was never going to be the summation of all the ideas/themes which were poured into the new films by writers like Kasdan, Carrie, Arndt, and Rian, along with actually following through with Lucas' original idea of 9 chapters. Unfortunately.

@snufkin

IX was doomed from that moment, in my humble opinion. No matter the themes and aspirations, the fact that they gave such an important film to............... that dude (I'm trying to be polite here) when he had zero experience in filmmaking and zero knowledge in mythopoesis/popular culture/literature, told us how they wanted to approach the ST. JJ coming back was our last hope, that MAYBE they were trying to salvage the whole thing. But nope. ST was always an exercise in larceny (lol) and a soft reboot of the OT for the eventual Marvelization of the brand.

@Piper Maru

Yep, doomed before any of us had even seen TFA and were intrigued about Rey and Ben's back stories and potential future relationship. It's cold comfort - but that's what I mean by what we've enjoyed and been interested in is the output of the creative projects that happened from 2012-2017. More thought and work was put in during 2012-2015 to bring the franchise out from retirement than into figuring out where they wanted to be in 2019 (other than a theme park and streaming service). The end of the Saga" was just marketing talk. Especially when the writers/creatives who'd put care and thought into the prior films have either passed away or moved on to new projects. Whatever happened to make the decision to hire/fire Trevorrow and then green lighting JJ and Terrio's script, following through/doing justice to the themes raised by the previous films weren't high on the list of priorities. Which may explain some of the ongoing caginess and now the "don't think too hard about it" type comments in interviews and LFL staff being snarky on social media when fan questions came up. Different creatives had different ideas/takes, so nobody could commit to just even saying what the story was about. Or things that you'd think were central, like Ben's relationship with his parents or Rey's relationship with him.

The # of discussions/analysis I've seen by disappointed fans in the past 2 months - y'all are putting in far more thought and attention about the characters and their histories than the filmmakers did.  I'm only half joking in saying that Ben's death is that he got whisked off stage to the Disney Vault b/c that's literally it. They had a check list of set pieces (Fantastic Planet, Bad Guy Spaceship, Cliched Desert Planet) and action scenes, wrote around that with other check list moments (the Beautiful Friendship Gang, Hero learns shocking truth about their family, Bad Guy becomes Good Guy, Space Kiss, & Girl Power) in which the characters were hustled in and out of those scenes.

On the plus side, I'd said prior to TRoS how surprised I was at how good and in earnest the ST movies had been. Because I fully expected it to be a rote exercise in nostalgia to cash in on the brand. By the time TFA was released, Disney has done that with projects like rebooting The Muppet Show and turning Pixar's films into theme park fodder. So I have been surprised this entire time at how good the ST has been and had hoped that it would continue through TRoS. But it feels like while that was a priority at the start of the project, it's changed and likely due to the studio priorities.

Piper Maru wrote:

Saracene wrote:As far as I can tell, the only purpose of the dyad is so that Palpatine can restore himself so that Rey can face him off when he’s in full strength?

@Saracene

That's what they did, but it's not how it works in a well-written story. When you add concepts like "dyad" (which has deep philosophical/sociological roots) and then parrots s*** like "not seen in generations", you create expectations about it. Your audience expects you to follow through with it. And in the end, it's just... bleeeergh. The super special dyad was just a barely-disguised plot device so Rey could have her Wonder Woman/Iron Man moment.

Yes, usually everything in narratives are plot devices. But a good storyteller integrates them naturally in the narrative. JJ and Terrio didn't. One of the biggest problems with TROS is that the audience can easily call out the film for its problems, because the ludic aspect is barely there. We *know* what they're trying to do, we know it's bs, we know it makes no sense, and yet they shove it down our throats. The trust between audience-storyteller is broken.

@Piper Maru

well said. Wonder Iron (Wo)Man indeed. And breaking the trust between audience and storyteller. Look no further from Rey Rey Skywalker. The Tats funeral with Ghost Lannisters adopting a grown-up girl gotta be one of the most WTF moments in cinema. Absolutely no meaning to Rey. Absolutely the wrong planet to honor Luke (wanted to get away from it) and Leia (was Jaba's bikini captive). And the less said about twins as surrogate parents the better. yet presented as a profound emotional moment that nobody felt except JJ and Terrio.

@Atenais Yeah, Pryde got offed in the third act battle. It happened pretty quickly. Most of the movie is a blur of motion and running and flying and yelling and fast edits, it's become a mush in my brain.

Many people have pointed out the video game-esque nature of TROS' plot, retrieving and putting together objects from various planets. Having watched cutscenes and footage from Fallen Order, the SW game that came out a few months ago, I can say it had a vastly superior grasp on storytelling, character development, and themes. It's simple, but very SW. So the point is that the actual game was more fulfilling and cinematic than the actual film, and the film was like a bad video game rather than a good one.

I'd like to think SW films, possibly even these characters, could get back up again one day and right the wrongs that were done, and by one day I mean probably 10-15 years from now. Disney might be trying to Marvelize the franchise, but it doesn't seem to be working out on the film front anyway.

Brilliant thoughts here as always all!

Piper Maru wrote:

Saracene wrote:As far as I can tell, the only purpose of the dyad is so that Palpatine can restore himself so that Rey can face him off when he’s in full strength?

@Saracene

That's what they did, but it's not how it works in a well-written story. When you add concepts like "dyad" (which has deep philosophical/sociological roots) and then parrots s*** like "not seen in generations", you create expectations about it. Your audience expects you to follow through with it. And in the end, it's just... bleeeergh. The super special dyad was just a barely-disguised plot device so Rey could have her Wonder Woman/Iron Man moment.

Yes, usually everything in narratives are plot devices. But a good storyteller integrates them naturally in the narrative. JJ and Terrio didn't. One of the biggest problems with TROS is that the audience can easily call out the film for its problems, because the ludic aspect is barely there. We *know* what they're trying to do, we know it's bs, we know it makes no sense, and yet they shove it down our throats. The trust between audience-storyteller is broken.

@Piper Maru
Indeed! The only reason Boolio was seen in TROS was so his head could get tossed onto a table later. Clunk!
It felt like a story written by a 12 year old!
(No offence to 12 year olds)

reylo1992 wrote:So many good points!

@Sacrebleu wrote:And I say this as someone who saw TROS 4 times and enjoyed it.  Nevertheless, it's flawed.

@Sacrebleu Thanks! I feel less alone. The sad reality is that one can find a bad movie enjoyable while not enjoying the story of a good movie. That's the fundamental difference between those who dislike dislike TROS and the ones who dislike TLJ. I might not have enjoyed the story of TLJ at first, it's objectively a good movie that can stand on its own while inserting itself coherently in the story. As someone who watched TROS 3 times, it's clear to me that it's a fast food movie: it feels  good while consuming it despite the dubious taste, leaves you unsatiated afterwards despite ton of extra sauce and make you feel sick while processing about its components.  

@reylo1992

For me TROS was typical of my experiences with JJ's films.  I enjoy the heck out of watching them but when I look back I start noticing all the holes in the fabric.  One thing that did not work for me on first or subsequent viewing was Rey taking the Skywalker name, and unfortunately it's the last line of the entire 9 film saga.  My reaction was kind of "huh?"  It didn't ring natural or true to me.

I know I shouldn’t let other people’s opinions of any form of entertainment bother me, but I still can’t help feeling disappointed about how Star Wars authors who contributed to Ben’s story and our interpretations of him as a character have commented things like “the romantic moment came out of nowhere” and “Kylo shouldn’t have been redeemed.” No one working on this story knew where the hell it was going and we’re the only ones who wanted good things for Ben in the end. It’s just depressing.

My son and I were talking about TROS yesterday. We were discussing just the plot of the movie and the more I think about the more annoyed I get with this movie.
So what happened to the Final Order? So the battle is not between The First Order, The Resistance and The Final Order? So the war is worse after a trilogy?
My son noticed that I was upset by how they treated Rey in this movie the most. He knows I was not happy with what they did to Kylo in this movie. It is so awful that they made her a forever child but also made Rey into the virgin mary at the same time.

I found out that Kathleen Kennedy's husband was the executive producer on Jurassic World, I have my theory that is why CT got the gig for Star Wars 9.

DeeBee wrote:Brilliant thoughts here as always all!

Piper Maru wrote:

Saracene wrote:As far as I can tell, the only purpose of the dyad is so that Palpatine can restore himself so that Rey can face him off when he’s in full strength?

@Saracene

That's what they did, but it's not how it works in a well-written story. When you add concepts like "dyad" (which has deep philosophical/sociological roots) and then parrots s*** like "not seen in generations", you create expectations about it. Your audience expects you to follow through with it. And in the end, it's just... bleeeergh. The super special dyad was just a barely-disguised plot device so Rey could have her Wonder Woman/Iron Man moment.

Yes, usually everything in narratives are plot devices. But a good storyteller integrates them naturally in the narrative. JJ and Terrio didn't. One of the biggest problems with TROS is that the audience can easily call out the film for its problems, because the ludic aspect is barely there. We *know* what they're trying to do, we know it's bs, we know it makes no sense, and yet they shove it down our throats. The trust between audience-storyteller is broken.

@Piper Maru
Indeed! The only reason Boolio was seen in TROS was so his head could get tossed onto a table later. Clunk!
It felt like a story written by a 12 year old!
(No offence to 12 year olds)

@DeeBee

No offence taken— my 13-year-old was quoting a meme that said something like, “TROS feels like something I would make up on the fly while playing with my action figures.” The kids agree.

Kids know. Listen to the kids. They tell it like it is.

@Birdwoman It's 100% why he's in the room. Safety Not Guaranteed did well at Sundance and he caught Brad Bird's attention. Bird had Trevorrow shadowing him on the set of Tomorrowland, which was in production when the Disney deal and ST announcement went down. Bird was KK's first choice but due to making his own movie, said he couldn't do pre-production for TFA and offered Trevorrow (who at this point had made one small budget indie film after being a PA for The Bachelor, interning at SNL, and doing the godawful misogynistic student film that made the rounds after BoH came out) as his proxy to babysit pre-production. KK passed on that offer and hired JJ instead to direct but Trevorrow was ultimately offered JW based on Bird championing him to KK's husband and Spielberg. And then when that movie made bank (which the observation was Trevorrow doesn't direct as much as act as a franchise manager for Spielberg), the decision was made to hire him for IX. Compare that with Rian, who had made 3 movies (including the first one being self-financed by family and friends) and worked for Terriers and Breaking Bad to get into the position of having TLJ offered to him. Or for good or bad, what Vic Mahoney had on her resume before being hired as a second unit director for TRoS.  And the thing about saying Trevorrow was hired based on Safety Not Guaranteed, which isn't a bad movie, there's nothing in his version of IX which feels at all close to that movie actually having characters and relationships.

@Cowgirlsamurai - that's part of what's so disappointing about how it all played out. Because after TFA came out, they started releasing new book titles where you could tell that the time and thought had been put into "What happened to these characters after we last left them?" and especially hearing about Rian working in conjunction with Claudia Grey and Jason Fry.

Otherwise the only conspiracy theory I have about all of this is that given recent social media blow ups and snarky comments, I'd 100% suspect that longtime fans and LFL employees are probably happy that TRoS spiked the football so they can go back to being an exclusive little club instead of dealing with all these noisy newcomers. Not a way to grow a franchise, brand but it's what happened in TRoS - the status quo never changes and what's more important is our exclusive special group versus bringing in newcomers. I wasn't even really that crazy about Rogue One, but its cast and premise is downright revolutionary now compared to TRoS.

That's not secret that CT got this job by nepotism and by single fact that he had experience with big budget after JP. There was rumour that Lucasmouse was a little worried about Rian in 2015 because he never worked with big budget. Rian landed this job in the end because he has his own producer who is able to be dedicated to the whole production and make it easier for the director.

CT was such a huge oversight and mistake. CT never wrote anything decent in his life. His partner-writer Derek wrote Safety Bot Guaranteed. CT should have NEVER be hired as a writer for ST, even with Derek being co-writer. There were rumours that LF and CT started falling apart because LF wasn't happy with Derek and his writings. No surprise here, as every insider describes CT as extremely arrogant person, even for Hollywood standards. I always believed it because untalented people who somehow got to the top are always unpleasantly egoistic and delusional about themselves.

So it looks like CT didn't like that they hired additional writer for him ( Thorne who wrote Harry Potter; isn't it surprising that LF made a Harry Potter out of ST in the end?) and sabotaged all the work with Thorne.

I'm so not surprised that Kiri left Lucasmouse and went to RJ's production company. Imagine "working" (translation: mostly being ignored) with hacks like JJ and CT after you already worked with someone like Rian: who has his own clear vision but don't treat other writers and producers as not worthy his attention.

Part of my lessons learned about the ST is that what attracted/interested me 100% has to do with the quality of writers they had involved with TFA and TLJ, being Lawrence Kasdan, Rian, and Carrie - who all give psychological weight and history to their characters. Versus somebody like CT who wrote JW where "she wears high heels and fancy suits" and "he's played by Andy Dwyer" were about the extent of the weight given to his leads. That's kind of insane when you go back and read the press interviews Kasdan did on behalf of TFA and Solo where he talks about reading Dennis Lehane's novels and thinking about the sins of the fathers/passing on of wisdom, Rian understanding what the hardest knowledge/challenge Rey has to face is living with the knowledge that her parents abandoned her, and everything Carrie said about Leia being older, wiser, and pissed off.

EU writers generally don't get told where the story is going, but that does make the writers' opinions on it really contrast with what they actually write. It's some real confusing whiplash.

I never liked CT as director/writer for IX, was infinitely glad when he was ousted. Unfortunately it was too late to entirely turn the tide, they really had to push out the end product quickly in 2 years.

I still don't get why they didn't want more opportunity to capitalize on Ben/Kylo, they would know more than anyone he's their most popular character. Hopefully the lackluster response to TROS is a real read flag the film's direction as a whole was a bunch of oopies.

I'll never forget how the official SW website asked for people to vote for who they wanted to see the most in TROS....and they overwhelmingly chose Kylo.
I can just imagine how they must have felt realising that they had killed off the most popular character in the ST.

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:I know I shouldn’t let other people’s opinions of any form of entertainment bother me, but I still can’t help feeling disappointed about how Star Wars authors who contributed to Ben’s story and our interpretations of him as a character have commented things like “the romantic moment came out of nowhere” and “Kylo shouldn’t have been redeemed.” No one working on this story knew where the hell it was going and we’re the only ones who wanted good things for Ben in the end. It’s just depressing.

The very idea of "It CaMe OuT oF NoWhErE" is BS. Reylo was never an headcanon imagined by delusional fangirls, period. If DLF hated so much the idea of people shiping their heroine with the antagonist, then don't put ton of  romantic/sexual subtext in their interactions. Don't put hearts everywhere. Don't make Kylo look damn attractive through her eyes during the unmasking. Don't describe him as a Prince while calling Rey Cinderella. Don't describe the hand-touch as a sex scene. Don't have Rey making heart-eyes to Ben and Ben making puppy eyes to Rey. Don't show them body-checking each other. Don't  make Darcy-like metaphorical marriage proposal, etc, etc...

That argument could have worked if only they had taken the opportunity of Rey shutting the MF door to push the idea that she definitely closed her heart after he called her nothing. They could have gone along with the idea that he is an entitled a** who only wanted to manipulate her and she understood the lesson. But the problem is that TROS is as consistent as TLJ regarding Reylo, one of the few things that were consistent with this movie and the ST from beginning until (nearly) the end. If Reylo was never meant to be romantic/sexual in TROS, I am curious to know how DLF will explain Rey's thoughts on Pasaana in the novelization. I mean, neither Padme nor Leia were shown staring longingly at foreign kids. Oh well, Master Yoda get out of this body I guess


If this isn't what we thought, then what was the thought process behind investing screen time for that scene? Why showing these kids through Rey's eyes? Why showing 1-2 years old babies instead of 9-10 years old kids? Why having Rey looking at them longingly? Why having Rey sadly admitting that she has no family? Why having Kylo showing up 2 seconds after to renew his hand proposal? Why not showing Rey staring at Finn or Poe longingly instead? Why showing Rey on the verge of tears while admitting that she wanted to take his hand ? I don't care if they  go after us implying that it's all in our head of delusional fangirls. I know where my thoughts went during that Pasaana scene and why it was meant to be.

Either they are too stupid to understand the implications of their own directing choice or they blatantly insult the audience's intelligence. You can't claim yourself as fireworker if you are the firebug in the first place. Had Rey shown no sign of romantic longing regarding what happened in the Throne Room, I could accept this argument that the kiss came out of nowhere. That's another reason why I am pissed with their fake woke feminism that destroyed the coherency of the story. They wanted so much to show  their heroine as a strong female lead, yet they took her dreams away from her barely hours after they clearly hinted what she was longing for. It's not like she clearly expressed what her wish was: "I wanted to take your hand, Ben's hand". By the way, rewatching ROTS made me realize how much another woman got rubbed from her wish ultimately. Padme sweetie, I am so sorry...

@Sacrebleu wrote:One thing that did not work for me on first or subsequent viewing was Rey taking the Skywalker name, and unfortunately it's the last line of the entire 9 film saga.  My reaction was kind of "huh?"  It didn't ring natural or true to me

As for Rey Skywalker, I don't mind the idea of her having that name while being "married" to Ben Solo. To me, she was always worthy of getting that name for her personal achievements. However, the "Rey Skwyalker" moment was totally weakened by Ben's absence. It would  have been much more meaningful and powerful had Ben been shown alongside his family, whether he was meant to be dead or alive. It would have made clear to the viewer that he is part of the Skywalker legacy, that Rey loves him but that she takes the name because she identifies with the family and its legacy as a whole. Thus completing her heroine's journey as announced by Maz in TFA: "the belonging (family) you seek is not behind you, it is ahead".

motherofpearl1 wrote:I'll never forget how the official SW website asked for people to vote for who they wanted to see the most in TROS....and they overwhelmingly chose Kylo.
I can just imagine how they must have felt realising that they had killed off the most popular character in the ST.

@motherofpearl1

When was this poll? I hope that's not what caused them to make massive change in order to push Rey forward.

The poll was published daily in the lead up to TRoS's release and then for the week afterwards. The ranking was pretty consistently in favor of Ben and/or Rey's relationship with him and meanwhile the other options got maybe 1-3% in the tally. Online polls can be subjective/gamed, but it's still an example of what LFL was thinking in terms of the final movie versus audience expectations.

Thanks

Why the TROS ending was a big fail compared to. this
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr1lgS419mI

I think the problem with Reylo was that it was too ambiguous and too buried in the subtext, especially when it came to Rey’s feelings, and since she’s the one who actively initiates the kiss in TRoS, then yeah it’s going to feel “out of nowhere” to the people who were never sold on the idea of her having romantic feelings for Ben. Interestingly, I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone question why on earth Ben would be willing to give up his life for Rey, so obviously the strength of his feelings does ring true for the audience. I also don’t think that throwing Leia’s death in the Kylo/Rey fight sequence did much favours to Reylo; I did watch the scene and it almost plays like Rey decides to heal Kylo for Leia’s sake after the shock of losing her, rather than because of her feelings for Ben. She then admits that she wanted to take Ben’s hand, but again, it’s only a romantic line if you already believe in Rey’s romantic feelings.

I really loved the Reylo dynamic in TLJ, but it was so tentative and in-the-subtext that it was more like a prelude to romance. For it to become a full-blown romance TRoS would have to do a lot of work and building, unfortunately instead it decided to put Rey and Kylo’s relationship in stasis for most of the running time and waste their scenes on the Palpatine/parentage exposition.

Throwing Leia death  into Reylo fight absolutely muddled the waters which I think was intentional. they wanted to please everyone by giving them leeway to interpret the scene whichever way they liked. That shows film-makers own insecurity, and too much worrying about what this or that group would say. if you wanted to interpret it as healing for leia;s sake, you could easily. if you wanted to interpret it as romantic love you could easily too thanks to "I would take your hand, Ben's hand". So half-arsed solution for everyone to enjoy resulting in everyone not enjoying it at all because they ended up hung up on what worked against their desired interpretation. Reylos didn't like muddled motivation for healing and antis didn't like unquestionably romantic reveal about taking Ben's hand [especially since it came 2 min after Finn was yelling Reyyyyyyy and got Force pushed away].

TLJ did the same thing with the last Luke/Rey scene; it gave the audience leeway to interpret Rey’s decision to go to Kylo however they liked, especially in combination with Rey’s vision of Kylo’s future that is never elaborated on. You could interpret Rey leaving because of her new feelings for Kylo, or you could take Rey’s words to Luke on their face value and assume that Rey just wants to secure the victory for the Resistance by turning Kylo back to the light.

BTW, this right here is why ancillary materials suck. You can't put this in them if your aren't going to follow through in the movies. This is epically tragic:



because this will never happen:

Saracene wrote:TLJ did the same thing with the last Luke/Rey scene; it gave the audience leeway to interpret Rey’s decision to go to Kylo however they liked, especially in combination with Rey’s vision of Kylo’s future that is never elaborated on. You could interpret Rey leaving because of her new feelings for Kylo, or you could take Rey’s words to Luke on their face value and assume that Rey just wants to secure the victory for the Resistance by turning Kylo back to the light.

@Saracene

agreed, all movies had "any interpretation goes" caveat when it comes to Reylo. I don't know why they toyed with it if they were so scared to go confidently forth.