Official TROS Spoilers discussion

@loversinthestorm The problem here is that there is no "tragedy" or "sadness" established in TROS. That's why all Tricias can write essay how someone's suicide can be justified by saving Jedi, who are represented by pure light Rey. It's not a personal story for them, and to be fair TROS and novel writer made it look as unpersonal as possible. They see it as cold-calculated decision by redeemed Ben who finally understand that Rey has more right to live than him because you know... the Jedis.

If they want audiences to root for Rey more, they're going the wrong way about it.

@loversinthestorm death of one or both people in a romance is usually a hallmark of pure tragedy. Though there is the long running tragedy of Anakin's fall and it's long term consequences - Star Wars was never meant to be one or conclude as one. George Lucas created the franchise as an antidote to nihilism that had permeated pop culture. This is why I don't like Ben's death. As for Rey - I can't really say that anything was truly actualized or resolved for her character. I don't see her character as selfish, just not truly actualized - there is little logic or emotional consistency left in her character in TROS. This, as well as the fact that it seems that Rey ''solves' or confronts all her problems with violence throughout the trilogy, without change - has made her fall flat for me

This sums it up perfectly for me
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iWJ7SN4R4iY
Miss Perfect Rey. So worthy the Force demands the man she almost killed give her his own life.

Angharad wrote:Here's Ben saving Rey. Notice how little self-worth he has, and how inflated Rey's value is. "She fought off the darkness in a way he never could", he thinks, as if he hadn't resisted it for 23 years since he was a helpless baby. Rey went straight to the dark in TLJ. Their attempts to purify her are embarrassing and so, so, retrograde.







I can't help feeling cynical that Ben is written as so self-hating and so desperately in love with Rey in order to manipulate the reader into feeling "okay" with his self-sacrifice because 'it's what he wanted'. It feels like a manipulation in order to avoid the accusation that the ending is a tragedy, but it also has the effect of making Ben look more and more victimised.

The implication that the Force hadn't taken Rey go yet is also disturbing; was it preventing her from fading away so he could sacrifice himself and she could live? If so, the Force is monstrous now, too.

@Angharad

I think that's exactly what they tried to do. They thought that if Ben dies "happily" and smiling with Rey not mourning at all then people won't feel bad about it and it can still be a hopeful ending. The novelization is just going really hard with that in reaction to people refusing to accept it the way the movie intended.

Imo they didn't even realize the implications of stuff like this. They wanted Ben to represent troubled kids taking the wrong path but imo that was more to get people who find themselves in that to watch, without thinking through how killing him and saying how his happy ending is to die for someone more worthy is actually a horrible and depressing message for anyone they actually got to relate to Ben.

My sentiments exactly.

Ben Solo is, to them, disposable. They didn't like it when the polls proved he was more popular than Rey, so they decided to push Rey's superiority over Ben because they thought it would endear her to the audience.
'Look, even Ben thinks she's better than him.'

It's had precisely the opposite effect.

I wish SW Insider would stop spouting damaging nonsense, but at the same time, I wouldn't take it too seriously. It isn't looked at by the SG, people just say whatever they want like the opinion pieces on the SW website. But maybe they should have some actual oversight to prevent the above bollocks? I saw this yesterday and just sort of rolled my eyes. Barr is rather infamous, someone over there at LF should notice or care about that.

The novel, officially out now, is getting a variety of responses, some say helped them feel a little better, or at least move on. Some think it's very Reylo-ish, others don't. Also there's one part where it's revealed Hux knows Kylo has a soft spot for Rey. We missed out on Rey-Hux interactions and I'm sad about it.

This is honestly the only place where I see Rey viewed as an exalted Mary Sue. There are those who hated her since TFA and still do, but the response to TROS is usually to either see her as a hero, or grossly demeaned. I and most of the other people I follow are in that latter camp. It took her own stuff, both internal and external, and limited her entire existence to being other people's vessels. I sort of see it as a parallel to Ben existing mostly for her in turn. To be fair, none of the ST characters were really allowed to be their own people at the end of it all.

Which is why it's such an insult coming on the heels of TLJ.

motherofpearl1 wrote:This sums it up perfectly for me
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iWJ7SN4R4iY
Miss Perfect Rey. So worthy the Force demands the man she almost killed give her his own life.

@motherofpearl1


One strange thing about the stabbing scene (ignoring the act itself here) is that it's executed with a weird flow or sequence - we see Rey, distinctly react to Leia first and then react to her action and Ben after - to me it's an odd sequence of action or priority, which contributes to the awkwardness of that scene. Some reylos enjoy the healing scene that follows - but at the time I watched the film I was still trying to process and contemplate other screwups prior to this scene.

Interesting...

"I recognize that Rey’s decision proved controversial, and I look forward to discussing this with fans for years to come. But my current take is this: The entire Skywalker saga is about Palpatine turning or trying to turn Skywalkers to the dark side. He especially hopes that Rey will prove a worthy vessel for his own power and ambition and become the Skywalkers’ final downfall. But in spite of all his efforts over the course of three generations, he fails. Rey rejects everything about him and takes on the Skywalker mantle and legacy. In the end, it’s a Palpatine who turns to the light, thus handing the Skywalkers their ultimate victory."

Rae Carson

https://www.starwars.com/news/rae-carson-star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-interview

SW_Heroine_Journey wrote:Interesting...

"I recognize that Rey’s decision proved controversial, and I look forward to discussing this with fans for years to come. But my current take is this: The entire Skywalker saga is about Palpatine turning or trying to turn Skywalkers to the dark side. He especially hopes that Rey will prove a worthy vessel for his own power and ambition and become the Skywalkers’ final downfall. But in spite of all his efforts over the course of three generations, he fails. Rey rejects everything about him and takes on the Skywalker mantle and legacy. In the end, it’s a Palpatine who turns to the light, thus handing the Skywalkers their ultimate victory."

Rae Carson

https://www.starwars.com/news/rae-carson-star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-interview

@SW_Heroine_Journey

But kinda awful. So this whole saga was about Palpatine??? Someone should have told me, I was cheering for the wrong people. lol

Anyway, I'm with you @californiagirl. I never disliked Rey, on the contrary, I always liked her very much. But the last movie changed things for me. I don't even like to see videos with her saying "I'm Rey Skywalker" that I feel sick.

SW_Heroine_Journey wrote:Interesting...

"I recognize that Rey’s decision proved controversial, and I look forward to discussing this with fans for years to come. But my current take is this: The entire Skywalker saga is about Palpatine turning or trying to turn Skywalkers to the dark side. He especially hopes that Rey will prove a worthy vessel for his own power and ambition and become the Skywalkers’ final downfall. But in spite of all his efforts over the course of three generations, he fails. Rey rejects everything about him and takes on the Skywalker mantle and legacy. In the end, it’s a Palpatine who turns to the light, thus handing the Skywalkers their ultimate victory."

Rae Carson

https://www.starwars.com/news/rae-carson-star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-interview

@SW_Heroine_Journey
... Thus handing (all the dead) Skywalkers their ultimate victory...

Atenais wrote:

SW_Heroine_Journey wrote:Interesting...

"I recognize that Rey’s decision proved controversial, and I look forward to discussing this with fans for years to come. But my current take is this: The entire Skywalker saga is about Palpatine turning or trying to turn Skywalkers to the dark side. He especially hopes that Rey will prove a worthy vessel for his own power and ambition and become the Skywalkers’ final downfall. But in spite of all his efforts over the course of three generations, he fails. Rey rejects everything about him and takes on the Skywalker mantle and legacy. In the end, it’s a Palpatine who turns to the light, thus handing the Skywalkers their ultimate victory."

Rae Carson

https://www.starwars.com/news/rae-carson-star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-interview

@SW_Heroine_Journey

But kinda awful. So this whole saga was about Palpatine??? Someone should have told me, I was cheering for the wrong people. lol

Anyway, I'm with you @californiagirl. I never disliked Rey, on the contrary, I always liked her very much. But the last movie changed things for me. I don't even like to see videos with her saying "I'm Rey Skywalker" that I feel sick.

@Atenais

Trying to look at this as impartial as possible (not easy, but trying) - I don't think DLF intended for harmful, awful intent.  To them, it's a fiction, a fictional character, narrative...a playground.  I don't think they realized how it personally affected us/people.  I don't know if they'll understand how huge this is until there is a financial effect OR they hear from therapists, etc that it was detrimental what they did to their myth, how it affects society.

Darth Snoopy wrote:

SW_Heroine_Journey wrote:Interesting...

"I recognize that Rey’s decision proved controversial, and I look forward to discussing this with fans for years to come. But my current take is this: The entire Skywalker saga is about Palpatine turning or trying to turn Skywalkers to the dark side. He especially hopes that Rey will prove a worthy vessel for his own power and ambition and become the Skywalkers’ final downfall. But in spite of all his efforts over the course of three generations, he fails. Rey rejects everything about him and takes on the Skywalker mantle and legacy. In the end, it’s a Palpatine who turns to the light, thus handing the Skywalkers their ultimate victory."

Rae Carson

https://www.starwars.com/news/rae-carson-star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-interview

@SW_Heroine_Journey
... Thus handing (all the dead) Skywalkers their ultimate victory...

@Darth Snoopy

Yeah...I know.... I think this shows though that to them...it's only a story/fiction, there is no big/real world implications. And I don't think they'll see beyond that unless it financially hurts them, or therapists, etc communicate with them.

An ultimate victory when they're all dead and their actual relative died at 30 after years of manipulation and abuse from Palpatine. But a random girl took their name so the legacy lives on lol. Basically they wrote SW like it was GoT and what matters is that a name survives, not the individual people.

The thing is.. that Palpatine actually didn't try so much to turn Rey. Rey never had a theme of challenge to be turned by Palpatine. She never had any real seducing moment with Palpy, and because it's famous manipulator Palpy, this fact makes it completely unbelievable.

There is zero significance in Rey rejecting Palpy, as he is undoubtedly ultimately evil and he never tried to seduce her with something she truly wants. She never needed anything from Palpatine and she didn't feel any connection to him.

Palpatine tried and succeed to turn Ben, and at least this plotpoint had some built up in ST. And Palpatine was creative about it.

All these excuses from Carson look ridiculous, especially considering she is a writer. I refuse to believe she is that stupid to believe in this nonsense.

SW_Heroine_Journey wrote:

Darth Snoopy wrote:

SW_Heroine_Journey wrote:Interesting...

"I recognize that Rey’s decision proved controversial, and I look forward to discussing this with fans for years to come. But my current take is this: The entire Skywalker saga is about Palpatine turning or trying to turn Skywalkers to the dark side. He especially hopes that Rey will prove a worthy vessel for his own power and ambition and become the Skywalkers’ final downfall. But in spite of all his efforts over the course of three generations, he fails. Rey rejects everything about him and takes on the Skywalker mantle and legacy. In the end, it’s a Palpatine who turns to the light, thus handing the Skywalkers their ultimate victory."

Rae Carson

https://www.starwars.com/news/rae-carson-star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-interview

@SW_Heroine_Journey
... Thus handing (all the dead) Skywalkers their ultimate victory...

@Darth Snoopy

Yeah...I know.... I think this shows though that to them...it's only a story/fiction, there is no big/real world implications.  And I don't think they'll see beyond that unless it financially hurts them, or therapists, etc communicate with them.  

@SW_Heroine_Journey
  real world implications aside - it actually shifts the internal narrative, negatively impacting the Saga's previous instalments and whatever cohesion there was. Now when I watch the PT and OT, and I know that this is supposedly the culmination of everything, it takes detracts from the optimism of the OT and the emotional drama of the PT. By the way, I don't hate Rey - I hate that a poor kind of ending was written. That it threw the old and new characters under the bus.

special_cases wrote:The thing is..  that Palpatine actually didn't try so much to turn Rey. Rey never had a theme of challenge to be turned by Palpatine. She never had any real seducing moment with Palpy, and because it's famous manipulator Palpy, this fact makes it completely unbelievable.

There is zero significance in Rey rejecting Palpy, as he is undoubtedly ultimately evil and he never tried to seduce her with something she truly wants. She never needed anything from Palpatine and she didn't feel any connection to him.

Palpatine tried and succeed to turn Ben, and at least this plotpoint had some built up in ST. And Palpatine was creative about it.

All these excuses from Carson look ridiculous, especially considering she is a writer. I refuse to believe she is that stupid to believe in this nonsense.

@special_cases
That's because they grafted the Palpatine name onto her, no matter if they supposedly entertained it as an option prior to/during TFA. TLJ said something else, and then TROS.

Also, what did she mean " in the end it's Palpatine who TURNS to the light"???

In the end it was a Skywalker who turned to the light. No one from Palpatines turned anywhere, as one died and another was already on the light side.

Ohhhh, they think that having "bad" surname like Palpatine makes you a Darksider. Then you need to change it in presence of the audience, and boom! you turned to the light. The victory!

special_cases wrote:The thing is.. that Palpatine actually didn't try so much to turn Rey. Rey never had a theme of challenge to be turned by Palpatine. She never had any real seducing moment with Palpy, and because it's famous manipulator Palpy, this fact makes it completely unbelievable.

There is zero significance in Rey rejecting Palpy, as he is undoubtedly ultimately evil and he never tried to seduce her with something she truly wants. She never needed anything from Palpatine and she didn't feel any connection to him.

Palpatine tried and succeed to turn Ben, and at least this plotpoint had some built up in ST. And Palpatine was creative about it.

All these excuses from Carson look ridiculous, especially considering she is a writer. I refuse to believe she is that stupid to believe in this nonsense.

@special_cases

Exactly. At no point does Palpatine offer her anything she actually wants. It's a corpse looking evil guy being openly evil and saying he killed her parents and wants to kill her friends. She had no contact with him before, he didn't influence her when she was a kid and most vulnerable.He basically kills himself so Rey technically didn't have to get her hands dirty either. So like what's the great victory over darkness when it comes to Rey? The narrative protected her so much from everything that she never felt the slightest bit in danger of anything really. Not death, or falling to the dark side or any kind of rejection from friends or the Skywalkers, or any consequences of her powers that weren't exactly under great control in TROS.

special_cases wrote:Also, what did she mean " in the end it's Palpatine who TURNS to the light"???

In the end it was a Skywalker who turned to the light. No one from Palpatines turned anywhere, as one died and another was already on the light side.

Ohhhh, they think that having "bad" surname like Palpatine makes you a Darksider. Then you need to change it in presence of the audience, and boom! you turned to the light. The victory!

@special_cases

As you put it, the bad surname perspective is probably how they think - unless - they somehow thought that having Rey do aggressive things for two hours indicated that she had turned. When a protagonist does something wrong or morally unsound it is highlighted by the narrative - we and by some point, the character, realizes they were wrong and tries to improve - real heroes learn and change. Rey does do things that are questionable, but the narrative never let us, her or the other characters gain proper perspective on that. The closest is perhaps through Kylo/Ben, but even that is undercut, since he is then presented as the more dubious, though they were meant to parallel...

special_cases wrote:The thing is..  that Palpatine actually didn't try so much to turn Rey. Rey never had a theme of challenge to be turned by Palpatine. She never had any real seducing moment with Palpy, and because it's famous manipulator Palpy, this fact makes it completely unbelievable.

There is zero significance in Rey rejecting Palpy, as he is undoubtedly ultimately evil and he never tried to seduce her with something she truly wants. She never needed anything from Palpatine and she didn't feel any connection to him.

Palpatine tried and succeed to turn Ben, and at least this plotpoint had some built up in ST. And Palpatine was creative about it.

All these excuses from Carson look ridiculous, especially considering she is a writer. I refuse to believe she is that stupid to believe in this nonsense.

@special_cases

Yeah, this.

It could have worked if Rey was actually raised to be evil or was affected by her Palpatine legacy in any way, and then turned to the light because of Skywalkers, but that never happened. She raised herself to be a good moral person who does the right thing without any influence from the Skywalkers, and she was never even slightly tempted by her dark side heritage. So there’s absolutely no weight to Rey “rejecting” Palpatine. And Palpatine only ever cared about himself and never saw Rey as his heir the way people normally do, so there’s no weight to his descendant taking on a Skywalker name like that’s a personal blow to Palpatine.

Mila95 wrote:

special_cases wrote:The thing is..  that Palpatine actually didn't try so much to turn Rey. Rey never had a theme of challenge to be turned by Palpatine. She never had any real seducing moment with Palpy, and because it's famous manipulator Palpy, this fact makes it completely unbelievable.

There is zero significance in Rey rejecting Palpy, as he is undoubtedly ultimately evil and he never tried to seduce her with something she truly wants. She never needed anything from Palpatine and she didn't feel any connection to him.

Palpatine tried and succeed to turn Ben, and at least this plotpoint had some built up in ST. And Palpatine was creative about it.

All these excuses from Carson look ridiculous, especially considering she is a writer. I refuse to believe she is that stupid to believe in this nonsense.

@special_cases

Exactly. At no point does Palpatine offer her anything she actually wants. It's a corpse looking evil guy being openly evil and saying he killed her parents and wants to kill her friends. She had no contact with him before, he didn't influence her when she was a kid and most vulnerable.He basically kills himself so Rey technically didn't have to get her hands dirty either. So like what's the great victory over darkness when it comes to Rey? The narrative protected her so much from everything that she never felt the slightest bit in danger of anything really. Not death, or falling to the dark side or any kind of rejection from friends or the Skywalkers, or any consequences of her powers that weren't exactly under great control in TROS.

@Mila95

That's the issue with the writing in regards to Rey - there were very little to no consequences for her. A protagonist with minimized challenges/obstacles, grows very static, especially when supporting characters are given more interesting circumstances or obstacles. She was also never allowed to slow down, and have any reflective moments, sometimes the quiet scenes are the ones that show the most about a character. TROS had little of that for anyone, the Han and Ben scene, perhaps.

SW_Heroine_Journey wrote:

Atenais wrote:

SW_Heroine_Journey wrote:Interesting...

"I recognize that Rey’s decision proved controversial, and I look forward to discussing this with fans for years to come. But my current take is this: The entire Skywalker saga is about Palpatine turning or trying to turn Skywalkers to the dark side. He especially hopes that Rey will prove a worthy vessel for his own power and ambition and become the Skywalkers’ final downfall. But in spite of all his efforts over the course of three generations, he fails. Rey rejects everything about him and takes on the Skywalker mantle and legacy. In the end, it’s a Palpatine who turns to the light, thus handing the Skywalkers their ultimate victory."

Rae Carson

https://www.starwars.com/news/rae-carson-star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-interview

@SW_Heroine_Journey

But kinda awful. So this whole saga was about Palpatine??? Someone should have told me, I was cheering for the wrong people. lol

Anyway, I'm with you @californiagirl. I never disliked Rey, on the contrary, I always liked her very much. But the last movie changed things for me. I don't even like to see videos with her saying "I'm Rey Skywalker" that I feel sick.

@Atenais

Trying to look at this as impartial as possible (not easy, but trying) - I don't think DLF intended for harmful, awful intent.  To them, it's a fiction, a fictional character, narrative...a playground.  I don't think they realized how it personally affected us/people.  I don't know if they'll understand how huge this is until there is a financial effect OR they hear from therapists, etc that it was detrimental what they did to their myth, how it affects society.

Whatever the intent, Abrams'smirk while describing Ben's fate as'fun' leaves a nasty taste in my mouth.

special_cases wrote:Also, what did she mean " in the end it's Palpatine who TURNS to the light"???

In the end it was a Skywalker who turned to the light. No one from Palpatines turned anywhere, as one died and another was already on the light side.

Ohhhh, they think that having "bad" surname like Palpatine makes you a Darksider. Then you need to change it in presence of the audience, and boom! you turned to the light. The victory!

@special_cases

It’s such a confused hodge-podge of messages.

“Your heritage doesn’t define you Rey!”

“Oh wait no it totally does, Rey is a Palpatine no matter what and it’s a total victory for a Palpatine to take on the Skywalker mantle”.