Official TROS Spoilers discussion

My opinion, is that LF executives are cowards. They didn't believe in their story and worried way too much about a bunch of gen x dudebros/dudechicks who complained about TLJ. I am a little surprised that they didn't realize that a redeemed Ben Solo was cash cow more than the trio.

I think it's a bit of pandering to the trolls, but I also think they just wanted the 'original' Skywalkers gone. Why.....I have no idea unless it was for financial reasons. Unfortunately they refuse to accept how much they were loved, that their 'villain' was more interesting than the heroes, and that trying to copy the chemistry Harrison, Carrie and Mark had, and failing.
What they should have done is something completely different, which I honestly thought they were going to do with TFA, and then Rian does one better - he separated the trio and gave them their own story arc.

As a result, Finn developed into his own person, ready to start a revolt among stormtroopers, Poe was far more interesting than a Han wannabe, and Rey.....grew up.
While Kylo took his first steps back into the light by killing Snoke and realised all the power in the galaxy didn't make up for feeling lonely and unloved.

Then we got TROS.

special_cases wrote:Omg one person on Twitter found old article with JJ comments about Star Wars

“It’s funny how in a weird way sometimes by demystifying a character it takes away from some of the fun that you felt about that character. It takes the mystery out of it. Sometimes a character is more interesting when you don’t know everything about them. Even someone from my generation — and I’m ancient compared to so many of the Star Wars fans that are out there — for me the character of Darth Vader was always so compelling because you were putting together all these thing in your head and making all these assumptions that to get to know Anakin as much as we ultimately did, changes the way you consider Darth Vader. It’s crazy to me that my kids relate to Anakin; which to me is criminal because I grew up believing Vader is a bad guy. I related to Luke and Leia and Han Solo. You don’t relate to Vader! I still think it’s wrong to be on Anakin’s side. So I guess there’s no one character I can point to and say that I want to know more about him or her, it’s just that Star Wars is so vast it would be great to find characters that have that level of emotional intimacy.”

My favorite thing about Star Wars is the ability to tell an incredibly personal, intimate, and emotional story against a backdrop of conflict and battle that’s planetary and massive. What I would love to see is a story about characters that I am desperately entertained by and definitely care about, and keep that story as focused as possible and make more of that than the pyrotechnics of it all which to me is what makes Star Wars so brilliant. If it’s a TV show, that’s terrific. If it’s animated I’m all for it. If it’s a radio show or a video game or an online experience — whatever it is I would love to discover in this vast universe some new characters that make me feel the way that Luke, Leia, and Han Solo did

“Obviously, his fall was inevitable and you learn that from the early films,” Abrams says. “You know it’s going to happen and watching it happen is tragic. What’s fascinating to me is that I grew up in a time when my friends related to Luke and now, my kids relate to Anakin. There is an interesting social comment there — that when I grew up the hero was an optimistic young neophyte who becomes this hero and the new generation’s hero is a strong-willed, ambitious and ultimately vilified protagonist who is misled and, for reasons of ego and heartbreak, literally becomes the very villain that my generation fought against.”

“It was absolutely the first film that struck a cord and that resonates to this day,” Abrams continues. “I think it’s because everyone relates to being stuck in your life and feeling like something extraordinary is just around the corner. To have something scary and tragic happen, like WHAT HAPPENS TO LUKE'S AUNT AND UNCLE [excuse me, WTF???], is such an engaging story that could take place on a farm in the middle of the U.S. and be just as compelling. And the fact that he ends up being the key to preventing this galactic takeover is kind of an amazing wish fulfillment. I think this taps into a universal desire that we all have to find meaning and purpose that is larger than what we ever could have imagined.”

https://www.starwars.com/news/director-j-j-abrams-and-his-lifelong-appreciation-of-star-wars

Why the person who thinks that Prequels are unnecessary, who doesn't understand why their own kids relate to Anakin and who doesn't understand that Star Wars is Anakin\Vader story was given TWO Skywalker movies to make???

@special_cases

And also this gem:

It’s hard to remember breaking a story for an episode of a show, whether it was Lost, Alias or even Felicity and not feel like there was some way to reference the love triangle you felt in Episode IV or the struggle of good and evil that you have seen in all six of the films.”

Lmao this one interview explains EVERYTHING. Guys, we never stood a chance with JJ at the helm.

I would have forgiven them if they hadn't thought essentially killing off Star Wars - because the Skywalkers/Solos WERE Star Wars - was funny.

It's like they didn't even see 90% of ROTJ, with Anakin's redemption and also the sibling reveal.

I had seen the part about how his kids related more to Anakin, but not the part about how he still thinks it's wrong to be on Anakin's side. And what's that about Luke's aunt and uncle? Maybe that's why we went back to the homestead in TROS, JJ wanted a farm story? Couldn't make it up.

I'm still so confused as to how JJ and Kasdan appeared to be on such opposite pages during TFA. I still want to know what Kasdan thinks of TROS.

I'm actually surprised how JJ managed to reign it in in TFA and not make it all about Luke because he sounds like one of those people who think SW is all about Luke always. But then again that could be because he created his own version of Luke with Rey and he was hyper focused on her for sure. And he sure went for wish fulfillment there, like 80% of the time in TROS but also TFA Rey is like a SW fan getting to meet her heroes and visit iconic sets.And yeah there's the hint of the twins obsession. I think some old school fans who wanted Luke to get the girl just really couldn't get over that he was made into the brother lol so we get the weirdness that was TROS.

Thing is, watching the OT again Luke's journey is nothing like Rey's. He starts off as a farm boy longing for adventure, graduates to a fully fledged rebel commander, and ends the story a Jedi on the path to becoming a legend. Rey finished the story as it began, once more back on a barren desert world, alone except for a droid. Luke's journey was hard, and he struggled, Rey seemed to have everything handed to her on a plate.

You could identify with Luke. It was impossible to identify with Rey by the time we reached the ending.

Luke wanted to save his father, Rey wanted to save the Resistance, which is perhaps why her attempt to turn Ben failed - like his mother she wanted to put the 'greater good' first. This could have been addressed in TROS, as Rian set up. I actually loved the TLJ scene where the sabre split - it practically screamed that it chose neither of them.
But come TROS, Rey of course had repaired it, as she's Rey the Magnificent, and naturally it was all hers.

For all his power, Luke couldn't destroy the Emperor. Yoda couldn't. Anakin couldn't. Not alone.

But Rey does it IN FIVE MINUTES, while Ben is conveniently down a hole out of the way, because how dare he share in Rey's glory. And OF COURSE Rey's body doesn't fade into the Force when she dies.....oh, no. Rey is so exceptional she alone stays, waiting for her life energy donor to resurrect her. BECAUSE SHE'S REY AND BELONGS TO THE GALAXY.
Lord, it's so ridiculous it's embarrassing.

Rey will NEVER be Luke,cJJ. Luke was a human being. Rey is a goddess. And completely unrelatable and sadly, now unlikeable.

From someone who loved her in TFA.

I've been keeping up with the novel leaks on Twitter and I feel genuinely stunned by how ugly, mean, cynical and downright prejudiced TRoS is.

Leia cares more about the survival of her legacy (what is this, Game of Thrones?!) and proteges than the soul and life of her only child with Han. She makes a reluctant attempt to reach out to Ben, but only because Luke is prompting her to and because it will save the Resistance. Her characterisation is massacred in order to turn her into a Jedi. Also, wtf @ Luke trying to convince Leia to euthanise herself?!

Rey continues to be polished into a perfect, pure, unbesmirched virgin goddess of light who's existence demands that Ben sacrifice his life for her. All her darkness that we saw in the previous films is washed away in order to paint her worthy of... well, everything. Ben is suicidal and happy to die for her; he thinks of her ability to withstand darkness as greater than his, even though he resisted it for 23 years! The narrative makes every opportunity to reinforce her purity and goodness, and Ben as inferior to her, in a manipulative attempt to justify his self-sacrifice.

This excerpt from Star Wars Insider is sickening. It literally describes Ben's "role to play" as that of sacrifice as if it was the destiny he was born for. Rey is the new hero "untainted by years of darkness" who deserves that sacrifice.



I feel like a slug has crawled over me. This is disgusting messaging... they are literally saying that only the pure and untainted deserve to live. That those of us who are damaged, who have made the wrong choices, who have been lost, may as well die in order to make way for those who are better. Not only does this s*** on everything that Star Wars has ever been about, but it's actually kind of discriminatory. Someone needs to call Lucasfilm the hell out for this; it's bad for their public image to be telling children stories with this kind of morality.

This film's only themes are death and punishment. It's turned Star Wars into a creepy morality tale about the impossibility of ever escaping your and your family's sins. It's obsession with the Skywalker legacy had made the continuation of their name more important than the continuation of their LIFE. in TRoS, life is no longer valuable.

Is this from the novel???? Holy crap, what a sick bullshit is this????
I´m so glad I didn´t order this. Incredible. It´s worse than the movie.

It tells you, if you are human and fail like a human, you are not worth to live.
Only goddess Rey deserves to live and deserves everything anyway. Sick.

Not just creepy, it's disgusting. Kylo has all along been coded as a mentally ill abuse victim, and those who identify with it are (rightly) seeing it as the ultimate betrayal. And people can't even identify with Rey anymore, because she's a person of unattainable righteousness.

Some time ago I said they were turning her into Jesus Christ. I was wrong. Christ embraced the damaged, the outcasts, the unloved. He defended prostitutes, lepers and those who had did wrong. He encouraged people to find redemption, and that if they truly wanted to change, he told them they could, and that they were loved.
Most of all Christ knew we humans were flawed. I don't want to Bible bash. I'm not a churchgoer. But to me the most memorable scene in the Bible is when he points out that no one - no one - is 'without sin.'

There are two vintage Biblical films, which remind me a lot of Kylo/Ben. The Robe, and it's sequel, G Demetrus and the Gladiators. Both feature 'damaged' protagonists, both tell a powerful message. But it's the second film that for me, had the most powerful story.
Greek Christian Demetrius, loses his faith after believing his love is dead. And he goes 'full on' Dark Side. He becomes a gladiator, brutally kills men in the arena, and worships Caesar as a god. In short he probably commits more sins than Kylo!
But is he 'killed off?'
No, he isn't. Demetrius finds himself, and his faith, when he finds out his love is in fact still alive.

What DLF have done is frankly repulsive. Instead of Ben giving Rey his life Force out of a gift of love he's expected to give it because she deserves it more than he does. But please explain just WHY? She is shown to happily enjoy shooting down TIES, kills without hesitation and twice attacks Kylo when he's unarmed. They've forgotten the 'darkness' in Rey.

Worse even, they have thrown away the idea that the Jedi were 'flawed' as shown in TLJ and the prequels. Their heroine, depicted as a girl needing family, instead embraces a right wing cult that preaches inhuman perfection. And isolation. I'm pretty sure Daisy didn't originally sign up for this - remember her saying way back she didn't think Rey would be a Jedi?

No wonder all their forthcoming projects revolve around the Jedi.
I doubt if I'll bother buying SWI again.

Hey idiots, Vader sacrificed his life for his son because he cared for him, and Ben sacrificed his life for Rey because he loved her. It had nothing to do with the stupid Jedi or making sure that the Purest and Goodest of the good guys keep on living for the good of the galaxy.

This is Star Wars gone wrong. Completely wrong, so sad.

I honestly think Lucas would be horrified at the novel. Never thought anything could be worse than TROS.

The excerpt I linked is by Tricia Barr and from a magazine, Star Wars Insider. The magazine is endorsed by Lucasfilm and stamped with their logo and can therefore be considered 'official'.

The following are excerpts from the novel itself. Leia's death scene.

@Angharad:

What a pile of crap. Luke died because of exhaustion by force projection. Leia didn´t force project at all.

Here's Ben saving Rey. Notice how little self-worth he has, and how inflated Rey's value is. "She fought off the darkness in a way he never could", he thinks, as if he hadn't resisted it for 23 years since he was a helpless baby. Rey went straight to the dark in TLJ. Their attempts to purify her are embarrassing and so, so, retrograde.







I can't help feeling cynical that Ben is written as so self-hating and so desperately in love with Rey in order to manipulate the reader into feeling "okay" with his self-sacrifice because 'it's what he wanted'. It feels like a manipulation in order to avoid the accusation that the ending is a tragedy, but it also has the effect of making Ben look more and more victimised.

The implication that the Force hadn't taken Rey go yet is also disturbing; was it preventing her from fading away so he could sacrifice himself and she could live? If so, the Force is monstrous now, too.

Angharad wrote:I've been keeping up with the novel leaks on Twitter and I feel genuinely stunned by how ugly, mean, cynical and downright prejudiced TRoS is.

Leia cares more about the survival of her legacy (what is this, Game of Thrones?!) and proteges than the soul and life of her only child with Han. She makes a reluctant attempt to reach out to Ben, but only because Luke is prompting her to and because it will save the Resistance. Her characterisation is massacred in order to turn her into a Jedi. Also, wtf @ Luke trying to convince Leia to euthanise herself?!

Rey continues to be polished into a perfect, pure, unbesmirched virgin goddess of light who's existence demands that Ben sacrifice his life for her. All her darkness that we saw in the previous films is washed away in order to paint her worthy of... well, everything. Ben is suicidal and happy to die for her; he thinks of her ability to withstand darkness as greater than his, even though he resisted it for 23 years! The narrative makes every opportunity to reinforce her purity and goodness, and Ben as inferior to her, in a manipulative attempt to justify his self-sacrifice.

This excerpt from Star Wars Insider is sickening. It literally describes Ben's "role to play" as that of sacrifice as if it was the destiny he was born for. Rey is the new hero "untainted by years of darkness" who deserves that sacrifice.



I feel like a slug has crawled over me. This is disgusting messaging... they are literally saying that only the pure and untainted deserve to live. That those of us who are damaged, who have made the wrong choices, who have been lost, may as well die in order to make way for those who are better. Not only does this s*** on everything that Star Wars has ever been about, but it's actually kind of discriminatory. Someone needs to call Lucasfilm the hell out for this; it's bad for their public image to be telling children stories with this kind of morality.

This film's only themes are death and punishment. It's turned Star Wars into a creepy morality tale about the impossibility of ever escaping your and your family's sins. It's obsession with the Skywalker legacy had made the continuation of their name more important than the continuation of their LIFE. in TRoS, life is no longer valuable.

@Angharad

I think I’ve cracked it, in years to come it will be revealed that the TROS novelisation was a fictional novel released by the Jedi order to warn off younglings (especially female younglings ) romantic love is bad. Compassion, purity good. Attachment bad. Failure is only atoned for in death! The survival of the Jedi order is what matters!
Hmm maybe the whole ST will be revealed to be a work of Jedi order propaganda and I’ll wake from this nightmare to find Ben lives, and Rey’s characterisation hasn’t been butchered after all....

I fear I have given the impression that my very first excerpt is from the novel. It's not; it's by Tricia Barr and from Star Wars Insider, a Lucasfilm-approved magazine. Sorry for the confusion (although to be fair, that excerpt from the magazine just spells out what the novel and movie are saying). I've posted actual excerpts from the novel above.

Here is another excerpt from the magazine. Again, this is stamped with Lucasfilm's approval (though who knows if the higher-ups read any of it). It literally says it's selfish and greedy to want to live when someone else (read: less tainted) could benefit from your death. This is heartbreaking.

Angharad wrote:I fear I have given the impression that my very first excerpt is from the novel. It's not; it's by Tricia Barr and from Star Wars Insider, a Lucasfilm-approved magazine. Sorry for the confusion (although to be fair, that excerpt from the magazine just spells out what the novel and movie are saying). I've posted actual excerpts from the novel above.

Here is another excerpt from the magazine. Again, this is stamped with Lucasfilm's approval (though who knows if the higher-ups read any of it). It literally says it's selfish and greedy to want to live when someone else (read: less tainted) could benefit from your death. This is heartbreaking.

@Angharad

Never mind, these exerpts from the magazine and the novel are both equally wrong and horrible.

@unicorn exactly!

I wonder if I've misread the second excerpt from the magazine; maybe it refers to refusing to let go of another person's life, aka Anakin being driven to the dark side for fear of losing Padme? The context suggests this may be the case. Still, that other paragraph is the WORST.

Angharad wrote:I fear I have given the impression that my very first excerpt is from the novel. It's not; it's by Tricia Barr and from Star Wars Insider, a Lucasfilm-approved magazine. Sorry for the confusion (although to be fair, that excerpt from the magazine just spells out what the novel and movie are saying). I've posted actual excerpts from the novel above.

Here is another excerpt from the magazine. Again, this is stamped with Lucasfilm's approval (though who knows if the higher-ups read any of it). It literally says it's selfish and greedy to want to live when someone else (read: less tainted) could benefit from your death.  This is heartbreaking.

@Angharad

Personally, I've already come to accept that LFL doesn't have any sympathy for Ben, so this kind of sith can't shock me anymore. I think the type of character like Ben has no chance in this era. Perhaps Rey's future sith lord Palwalker son will end up better.

Angharad wrote:Here's Ben saving Rey. Notice how little self-worth he has, and how inflated Rey's value is. "She fought off the darkness in a way he never could", he thinks, as if he hadn't resisted it for 23 years since he was a helpless baby. Rey went straight to the dark in TLJ. Their attempts to purify her are embarrassing and so, so, retrograde.







I can't help feeling cynical that Ben is written as so self-hating and so desperately in love with Rey in order to manipulate the reader into feeling "okay" with his self-sacrifice because 'it's what he wanted'. It feels like a manipulation in order to avoid the accusation that the ending is a tragedy, but it also has the effect of making Ben look more and more victimised.

The implication that the Force hadn't taken Rey go yet is also disturbing; was it preventing her from fading away so he could sacrifice himself and she could live? If so, the Force is monstrous now, too.

I remember way back post TFA many of us theorised that Rey would be the first person to actually put Ben first, after his family always put the 'greater good' first.
But, no. The only person Rey puts first is herself. She's been retconned into someone completely different from her original incarnation.

I'm stunned. I'm honestly stunned. The fandom menace wanted TLJ removed from canon, but TROS is the film that character assassinated Luke and Leia. In fact every single person in TROS is completely unsympathetic, except Han and Ben. If anyone film deserves being removed from canon, it's this one.

Walt Disney apparently liked happy endings. He must be turning in his grave at what the company he's founded has sunk to. I'd love to know what GL REALLY thinks of it. This is not #metoo, unless #metoo has gone from protecting women to demonising men. It's.... unbelievable.

That magazine is not pre-approved by LF, as people from Story Group made it clear a few times in the past that the author can write whatever she wants.

It's not surprising to me that Tricia is an author of this nonsense, not because she is anti-Reylo but because she is that white feminist who treats women as symbols [of her own power] and not human beings that had good and bad qualities. "Rey alone pure in the Light side" is that kind of power fantasy all these Tricias want to see in media/culture as they can only relate to somebody who portrayed as fundementally and essentially right. No doubt. No challenge. No transformation. Just rigid excellence and rightness based on gender and based on dichotomy of white and black side. For them women are not allowed to have any emotions and feelings more complicated than "the right and the wrong" as they prohibit themselves to feel something beyond these boundaries. It's a long conversation, about feminism that wants to be basically on the top of old patriarchy, instead of transforming it in something new.

They just lost any empathy as a result of their social views and political battles and unfortunately, this is a new kind of evil. That type of evil George Lucas tried to show with Jedi hubris in Prequels so all of this is kind of tragically ironic considering TROS' inability to learn something from Prequels and TLJ. Yoda made it clear that there is no such thing as being pure in Light or Dark but it was too late for Anakin and Jedi council and it's too late for people like Tricia as their personal views and social positions are based on refusal to acknowledge how complicated all these personal judgements and sacrifices and sides.

It's also part of antiReylo phenomen (active subgroup; not the people who just dislike Reylo) as people there prefer to choose simple black and white POV because it makes them feel secure and right - they are supporting something that looks the good side, of course, that means they are automatically good people who waste their time on rightful matters! Weak empathy is a reason of this shallow mindedness, and formal education and big words is not a sign of real intelligence, so this kind of crowd prefer to be stupid just to live comfortably - that's the way to feel like you're always right and fair.

I'm forever amazed that all these subgroups are so well-developed in Star Wars culture, as George Lucas established quiet different values and morals, and many of them were misunderstood.

TROS is a terrible movie and Ir wish Ben had lived but giving your life to someone you love is the ultimate redemption and romance. I know TROS is very badly executed but I cannot agree with everyone painting selfish love as If It was a bad thing. Knowing Ben had loved Rey enough to give her his life is beautiful. Tragic and sad (definitly not the hopeful ending I would want for a movie like SW) but beutiful.
Like everyone I would like to see Reys love more but it's unfair to say she is selfish. She did not ask for him to save her. The movie is bad but the broad points of reylo and Ben redemption were the besta they could be.