Official TROS Spoilers discussion

@Lily Snape Aw thank you. Unfortunately I am a nobody on the Internet, versus I wish somebody in one of these publications that did the cover stories would write an thorough post mortem. Which isn't likely as Disney has a tight control on its PR to the degree that the cover stories which got access were mediated through journalists who are unabashed fans who want to continue having access.

It is coincidental but I downloaded and started listening to one of What the Force's podcast interviews, with Phil Szosak of Lucasfilm. I haven't listened all the way through yet but caught one quote from him about the early days of planning the re-lauch of the Saga films where one of the discussion topics was "What is Star Wars and what is it like in-universe and in our society 30 years later?"



TFA opened with that question and TLJ started to answer at both a meta and character level about how myths grow, the truth behind them are frequently more complicated, and how people find their way to make meaning of it. Unfortunately the different answers including solutions about leaving the past behind, moving beyond the status quo/paradigm, and you don't need to be a certain type of person/believer to find meaning and belonging upset some very vocal fans who LFL and Disney unfortunately chose to listen to. The answers TRoS gives are about sticking with the status quo and like I said, "For the price of a ticket, anybody can pretend to be these mythological characters" is how that movie drops Rey at the end into the saddest, most depressing part of the theme park. If that was the intention behind the quote I mentioned above, from the original planning meetings/discussions LFL had back in 2013-14, I'm really confused because it feels like the answer was "it's exactly the same, nothing has changed."

@DeeBee — You’re probably right, and they might be foolish enough to think that if killing off Vader was OK, so is killing off Kylo.  Apparently, if that’s the case,  they forgot that they had the dying Darth Vader / Anakin Skywalker played by Sebastian Shaw, who was born in 1905.  In 1982 when Return of the Jedi was being filmed, he would have been 77 years old.  Obviously we know that the story subsequently says Anakin fell at 23 and that Luke is 23 when Anakin redeems himself, so he’s 46– but they play him as a man 30+ years older than that, a senior citizen.  And the character, regardless of age, had lived a lot more of the milestones many (not all) people seek than his grandson had— married and had kids, for example.  He also had some success and honor as an adult before his downfall, whereas Ben was presented as trapped from childhood.  I really hope the powers-that-be at LFL weren’t foolish enough to think this was the equivalent of how they presented Kylo/ Ben, as about 30, with an adolescent level of confusion, and an adolescent level of romantic/ sexual maturity.  But let’s be honest— they probably were that foolish.

Edited to add:
@snufkin — I’ll watch the interview tomorrow after work, when I’m not trying to get my kids to quiet down and go to sleep because some of us have to work around here.

I'm getting fed up of people repeatedly calling Kylo a 'mass murderer'.
Apparently@StarWarsUK did a tweet about good and evil being a matter of perspective, and cited Finn (as a former stormtrooper), Anakin and Kylo, only to be forced to withdraw their video thanks to furious backlash from people saying:
"How dare you put Finn in the same light as mass murderers Anakin.....and Kylo."
I'm sorry but just who did Kylo 'mass murder'?He was against the destruction of Hosnia. He executed the villagers on Jakku, but from his point of view they weren't terrorists but freedoms fighters.
And I can't help but think in some ways the resistance creepily reminded me of a terrorist group. I wasn't comfortable with Rey referring to them as 'the cause' in the comics, and Poe behaved very close to Saw Guerrera in TLJ.
Finn seems to be everyone's darling at the moment, fine but I wish they would cease the Kylo hate. Their boy survived, ours didn't. They won.

A new piece about Finn. This isn't the first one I've seen either, there was another last month as well. https://nerdist.com/article/star-wars-sequels-abandoned-finn-apolitical/

They're right about how they shied away from Finn's background, but a bit unfair regarding TLJ - Rian gave Finn a pretty decent story arc there regarding his transition from 'man who wanted to run'to dedicated rebel, and he also set up the stormtrooper uprising - 'the war has just begun'.
Unfortunately, they whitewashed a lot of things - Rey's miserable background, and how it would really have affected her, Kylo's abuse at the hands of Snoke - as well as Finn's origins, and predominantly they did this in TROS. I don't know if it was Disney being anxious to protect their 'family friendly' image, or creative failings on the part of Abrams and Terrio, but a lot of potential was wasted.
Disney practically handed their writer and director a lot of money to put their own fan fiction on film.

There's a thing going around on social media asking what people's initial reaction was when Rey and Kylo kissed. Lots of confusion and exasperation going being expressed.

That's on top of the "Zuko isn't like Kylo Ren beyond aesthetics" discourse that happened a couple days ago. The drama, it never ends.

Why do people still care about opinions involving the ST? It's over. It ended 8 months ago. I really don't understand why there's still discourse around stupid things like "did you like Rey and Kylo Ren kissing?" when it's a done deal.

Aint't that truth.

I mean, it's one thing to be mad at the movie (because it's truly trash) but I keep seeing people engaging in fights/drama with other fans... why? If anything, people are just mad and jealous because they feel the movie pandered to the Reylos

I think it's a combo of SW being one of the most recognizable, clickbait-worthy franchises out there, and the fact there's only a limited amount of new media coming out right now, and theatres have been shut down since early March, with no clear idea of when they will open again. So it's like we're stuck in the media that came out from December-March forever.

That's not what I meant. We're all still here complaining about the movie and that's fine. But I keep seeing stupid fan drama even to this day. Rey and Kylo kissed, end of story. There's nothing to argue there, at least not from the "ship wars" perspective. It's like fans of "Rey Related" fighting to this day because she's not. It's one thing to criticize/trash the movie, it's another to engage in catfights over headcanons when the trilogy is over.

Yep, I see those really useless What If scenarios. What If Rey was a Skywalker. But she isn't so what's the point of discussing something that won't happen? It's over. What if Finn led the storm trooper rebellion? But he didn't so what's the point going around in circles over a ship that sailed? Rey didn't love Ben, she just felt gratitude. yeah, then why did she grabbed him and stick her tongue into his mouth? The kiss was super lustful and passionate. if she wanted to say thanks, peck on the cheek and "thank you my friend" would suffice.

It's just futile taking potshots and poisoning the well.

Fact is, no matter what, Kylo haters will continue to hate him no matter what.
And those like myself who love the character will continue to love the character. Neither side will alter their views so whining and groaning about it is pointless.

vaderito wrote:Yep, I see those really useless What If scenarios. What If Rey was a Skywalker. But she isn't so what's the point of discussing something that won't happen? It's over. What if Finn led the storm trooper rebellion? But he didn't so what's the point going around in circles over a ship that sailed? Rey didn't love Ben, she just felt gratitude. yeah, then why did she grabbed him and stick her tongue into his mouth? The kiss was super lustful and passionate. if she wanted to say thanks, peck on the cheek and "thank you my friend" would suffice.

It's just futile taking potshots and poisoning the well.

@vaderito

Hey!
She is a Skywalker!

And she's 'all the Jedi".

Atenais wrote:

DeeBee wrote:(...) Could be Jannah finding out she’s a Skywalker?!  

@DeeBee

Sounds legit.

@Atenais

Oh my. this made my day! Hilarious!!!!

snufkin wrote:@Lily Snape Aw thank you. Unfortunately I am a nobody on the Internet, versus I wish somebody in one of these publications that did the cover stories would write an thorough post mortem. Which isn't likely as Disney has a tight control on its PR to the degree that the cover stories which got access were mediated through journalists who are unabashed fans who want to continue having access....

@snufkin

Snufkin no pressure, but everybody who is now considered a somebody started off as a nobody. (just ask Rey Skywalker )
I'd happily support anyone here to publish an analysis. I think back to all the clever minds who were engaged here over the years. Great minds!
I think the lack of analysis in itself deserves an analysis.Star Wars deserves better than all this.  

Lily Snape wrote:@DeeBee — You’re probably right, and they might be foolish enough to think that if killing off Vader was OK, so is killing off Kylo.  Apparently, if that’s the case,  they forgot that they had the dying Darth Vader / Anakin Skywalker played by Sebastian Shaw, who was born in 1905.  In 1982 when Return of the Jedi was being filmed, he would have been 77 years old.  Obviously we know that the story subsequently says Anakin fell at 23 and that Luke is 23 when Anakin redeems himself, so he’s 46– but they play him as a man 30+ years older than that, a senior citizen.  And the character, regardless of age, had lived a lot more of the milestones many (not all) people seek than his grandson had— married and had kids, for example.  He also had some success and honor as an adult before his downfall, whereas Ben was presented as trapped from childhood.  I really hope the powers-that-be at LFL weren’t foolish enough to think this was the equivalent of how they presented Kylo/ Ben, as about 30, with an adolescent level of confusion, and an adolescent level of romantic/ sexual maturity.  But let’s be honest— they probably were that foolish.

@Lily Snape
- I think they are that foolish now yes. Before TROS I believed they wouldn't be that dumb, and they would give us a happy ending. No way would they end Kylo's story the same way as Vader - we've already seen that!! and this is a young man, not an old dude.. sooooo they sure showed me!

motherofpearl1 wrote:They're right about how they shied away from Finn's background, but a bit unfair regarding TLJ - Rian gave Finn a pretty decent story arc there regarding his transition from 'man who wanted to run'to dedicated rebel, and he also set up the stormtrooper uprising - 'the war has just begun'.
Unfortunately, they whitewashed a lot of things - Rey's miserable background, and how it would really have affected her, Kylo's abuse at the hands of Snoke - as well as Finn's origins, and predominantly they did this in TROS. I don't know if it was Disney being anxious to protect their 'family friendly' image, or creative failings on the part of Abrams and Terrio, but a lot of potential was wasted.
Disney practically handed their writer and director a lot of money to put their own fan fiction on film.

@motherofpearl1
-I think TROS as a 'whitewash' is just plain spot on!
I think fan fiction is way better than TROS, TROS as fan fiction gives fan fiction a bad name. ha!

Piper Maru wrote:I mean, it's one thing to be mad at the movie (because it's truly trash) but I keep seeing people engaging in fights/drama with other fans... why? If anything, people are just mad and jealous because they feel the movie pandered to the Reylos

@Piper Maru

I agree when the discourse is about denying what's there on the screen it's pretty pointless..
At the same time, it's fair to discuss it. The execution of it sucked. They could have done more to sell the relationship in the ST - especially when we see them trying to kill each other one moment, and the next moment they are kissing.
A little subtle hint that isn't explicit doesn't necessarily push back against trying to kill each other you know?! lol.
It was all too subtle for people who didn't want to see it and were invested in other perspectives on the characters. The audience needed the oracle to confront Ben with his love for Rey and make it obvious even to those who don't connect with Ben's character (like us Reylos).
and.. Rey's statement that she would have taken Ben's hand was not clear enough for most it seems too symbolic, and too easily dismissed as not specific enough to true love kinda thing.

Coming back to this comment..

snufkin wrote:  ...It is coincidental but I downloaded and started listening to one of What the Force's podcast interviews, with Phil Szosak of Lucasfilm. I haven't listened all the way through yet but caught one quote from him about the early days of planning the re-lauch of the Saga films where one of the discussion topics was "What is Star Wars and what is it like in-universe and in our society 30 years later?"



TFA opened with that question and TLJ started to answer at both a meta and character level about how myths grow, the truth behind them are frequently more complicated, and how people find their way to make meaning of it. Unfortunately the different answers including solutions about leaving the past behind, moving beyond the status quo/paradigm, and you don't need to be a certain type of person/believer to find meaning and belonging upset some very vocal fans who LFL and Disney unfortunately chose to listen to. The answers TRoS gives are about sticking with the status quo and like I said, "For the price of a ticket, anybody can pretend to be these mythological characters" is how that movie drops Rey at the end into the saddest, most depressing part of the theme park. If that was the intention behind the quote I mentioned above, from the original planning meetings/discussions LFL had back in 2013-14, I'm really confused because it feels like the answer was "it's exactly the same, nothing has changed."

@snufkin

about sticking with the status quo -I see this is being discussed in the twitter thread at the moment. Great thoughts!
This is probably one of the most painful aspects of TROS for me. TLJ gave me such hope for the future of SW, and then TROS came out with the message: nothing new here to see... just... nostalgia.

Where this all leaves the Jedi gives me a headache.
I thought we were going to see the Jedi relationship with the galaxy and the force have some kind of resolution. But nope. all we got was nostalgia. I'm still confused about what the heck went down with the Jedi... and with the Sith.... and with the force in general? Sooo now is there balance?
What. the. Force.

Exactly how I feel. The novel of TFA opened with the Resolving of Grey poem. TLJ had Luke saying it was time for the Jedi to end. Kylo says twice it was time to let old things die.
All of this practically screamed that SW would head in a new direction and it seemed pretty obvious that Rey and Kylo would bring about the balance between them. That a new era would begin without Sith or Jedi, but something new.
Then we got.....TROS.
Apparently Rey is 'the Balance'. But she isn't. She's a boring, tired old fashioned, 'no attachment' Jedi. That's how she was presented at the end of the film. I don't care if a thousand supplement tie ins insist she went back to her friends at the end, the film - the last Skywalker film ever - ended with her ON HER OWN. This to appease the Kylo haters. But killing him off hasn't. Just look at other forums, the seething hatred is still there.
Some of the reasons for this hate:
He was responsible for the destruction of Hosnia.
He did terrible things while Supreme Leader, including continuing to kidnap and brainwash babies.
He assaulted Rey.
He's abusive to women
He killed Han, Luke and Leia.

Kylo was killed off to appease these dweebs and it..... didn't work. They hate him still. They hate those who like him. They always will. I'll never understand why they chose to prioritize their feelings over those who love this character and according to the opinion polls are in the majority.


And Rey....a lot of people have mentioned that she regressed to her childlike state in TROS, complete with hairdo and playing games in sand dunes. This, I think, is Terrio. He wanted his 'ship' - the Twins - to have a surrogate baby. So he gave them one.
Yuk.

At least people have opinions and feelings about Rey and Kylo kisses.

Nobody cares about Rey being Palpatine's granddaughter. It's not even funny enough to make jokes or satire about it. After meta irony in TLJ, the way this parentage thing was done - was just pathetic.

I'm saying it as someone who likes the idea of Rey being Palpy's granddauther. You're a Palptaine. Dear God. The parentage reveal in ESB is one the most brillian moments in cinema history, the most legendary thing about Star Wars that people discuss even without watching Star Wars in a first place, and they wrote, directed and shot this garbage "You're a Palpatine". God save us all, somebody gave these people 200 millions to make a movie.

"Rey Palpatine" was one of my favorite theories since the TFA days and I cannot believe to this day how hard they dropped the ball on that. It could've been an amazing plot thread but what we got was "you have his power" cringy dialogue.

Rey Palpatine was my favourite post-TFA parentage theory too (provided that she was descended from younger Chancellor Palpatine and not monster-face Emperor Palpatine). I guess TRoS can be put in the “be careful what you wish for” basket? “Rey Palpatine” is executed in such a brain-dead stupid way it’s like my mind refuses to accept the whole thing. And it’s not just that JJ tried to rip off the OT parentage reveal, he wasted most of the movie recycling Rey and Kylo stuff from TLJ. Kylo learns something about Rey’s parentage and thinks that he can use it to persuade Rey to join him, check; he does the dramatic reveal and offers his gloved hand, check; Rey refuses and escapes, check. Except let’s also pad it out with extra fighting!

Piper Maru wrote:"Rey Palpatine" was one of my favorite theories since the TFA days and I cannot believe to this day how hard they dropped the ball on that. It could've been an amazing plot thread but what we got was "you have his power" cringy dialogue.

@Piper Maru

I also, in the TFA days, thought that Rey Palpatine was a decent idea. For me, though, I always thought it would have made more sense if she was some sort of hybrid clone grown in a lab, specifically for the purpose of carrying on Palpy's legacy of evil. The idea that she had parents who loved her and abandoned her on Jakku of all places, I don't know, I don't get the sense that she is reversing her destiny by being good.

To me the clunkiest thing about the OT, almost cringe-worthy, is when Obi-wan's force ghost explains to Luke why he didn't tell him the truth about his father. And of all things, that's what J.J. and Terrio decide to echo, with Luke telling Rey that he and Leia knew about her lineage. Ugh!

With a small adjustment, it could be done so much better. Instead of having Hux be the comic relief mole, let him respond to his TLJ humiliation by becoming more powerful. Then have Pryde be the guy that knows about Rey's origin and lineage, and who is also the mole. Kylo can catch the mole, dig into his mind to find out what he's done, and get the surprise additional info about Rey. Later, Rey can get it confirmed by Pryde himself.

I also think if you wanted to retcon TLJ's "Rey Nobody" there are better ways besides turning her drunk in a ditch parents who sold her into the noble son of Palpatine and his wife abandoning her to protect her. Would it have been that outlandish to just have the Parents she remembered actually be the ex-Imperials that raised her on Jakku for her first few years? I like the test-tube /hybrid clone idea because it allows her to be Palp's direct descendant, and part of his plan.

I imagine a couple of ex-Imperials, survivors of the battle of Jakku, scavenging a downed ship, and finding an infant frozen in carbonite, thawing it and raising it as their own. And then I imagine young Kylo Ren, 15, on his first mission for Snoke with the Knights of Ren, to retrieve that carbonite frozen infant, Kylo coming face to face with the young Rey, realizing she is the thawed infant, but in a call to the light moment, letting her go. That can all be off screen, but it's a backstory that has some drama and makes some sense. Kylo learns the story by putting together what he got out of Pryde's head with his own shameful sentiment moment. It explains "What girl?". It helps to redeem Kylo because he showed care for her when they were young.

There are probably a lot of better possibilities for every f*cked up "plotpoint" in this bad joke of a movie.
And obviously you don´t even have to be a professional writer or director to find some.
And then these two dumb*sses have the audacity to complain about how RJ wrote them in a corner with his story.

Noooo, you two are plain and simple completely unimaginative and unable to write a decent story apart from your outdated and dull OT headcanon.
Do´t blame others for your unability, period.

Honestly, I just don’t think there was a good way to retcon Rey’s nobody heritage after TLJ. Rey Nobody was written with a certain thematic weight in mind, I personally don’t think much of it or how it was executed in the movie, but regardless, it was done. You can’t hop from Rey Nobody and all it means onto a completely different tangent and theme, and do *another* dramatic reveal about the hero’s heritage that’s a complete 180-degree pivot from the previous film.

If they'd wanted Rey Somebody they should have done it from the start. If they'd wanted Rey Skywalker they should have made her Luke or Leia's long lost daughter. If they'd wanted Villain Kylo they should have not made him a mentally ill child abuse victim.
Rian never wrote anyone into a corner, they chose to retcon TLJ out of spite. TROS was JJ's TFA sequel. Terrio was a gift to him because they were on the same page. Everything good about TFA was thanks to Kasdan, not Abrams.
Their mistake was ignoring the critical reviews. They were full of enthusiasm regarding Kylo and Rey together on screen. Killing him off is the worst financial mistake they ever could have made.

I still don't think TROS is a TFA sequel, it's really not a sequel to anything. The more people were invested in canon, the more insulting it got. It wasn't just the critics, but much of the audience who loved the Rey-Kylo TLJ stuff, and they didn't really understand what exactly about it they liked. It's amazingly blind, and yeah, they just tossed so much money down the drain.