The Last Jedi Trailer(s)

Acritiqua wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:Yeah, I personally have always doubted the full-on revenge rumor.  He didn't have hate for her at the end and even if Snoke does a big job on him, his self-loathing is probably going to be off the charts.  This is the dude who yelled "harder.''  Now seeing the trailer and poster and BTS photos with his "mournful warrior" look and his personally smashed helmet and the sad look of him on the poster, I doubt it even more now.  For all we know he may even think as far that he deserved it.  But with the addition of the books in the trailer, my belief that he had a mission other than revenge on Luke when he was searching for the "path to Skywalker" has gotten stronger.

This picture tells me that he definitely has a run-in with Rey, but at the same time he doesn't seem to be seething with anger.  Instead, he seems very focused.  To me it says that he will not underestimate her again, he will not be distracted by her again, and he wants to get to those books above all and is definitely not interested in her blocking his way with another face slash.  I don't think he wants to kill her.  I think he wants her to get out of his way because he has bigger fish to fry, namely the books.  But of course, she's going to say something that really throws him.

It would make a lot of sense to me if he's not going there to kill Luke. It would fit more with my impressions of his character anyway. I'm always torn between my impressions from the story and then my impressions of what the writers will do and all these other impressions. But just going off of the character as I see him I'm not sure that killing Luke, or especially Rey would be his objective. And I think he keeps some things from Snoke in general and doesn't necessarily share Snoke's objectives to a T either. I always thought the idea of him wanting revenge against Rey would be kind of reducing his character to a cliche villain because I didn't really see anything in TFA to suggest that he would. He didn't even seem angry after she defeated him, more stunned (maybe even awed), and I thought he was checking to see if she was okay after the ground split. I'd also expect him not to make the first move even in TLJ but be on defense again. Part of my impression of Kylo is that he actually prefers defense to offense, prefers taking info from people's minds to physical torture, and often prefers to immobilize rather than fight (which is why he likes to freeze people in place). I also just don't think he'll want to kill Rey anymore than he did before (which was not at all).

But we'll see.

@Acritiqua

I agree with all this.  A long time ago someone named @alixen posted an amazing essay about how all of Kylo's signature moves are actually inherently defensive and how though he employs the dark side he takes a middle road with it.  He freezes people.  He doesn't choke them to death.  He smashes computers when something goes wrong, instead of killing people like Vader.  He reads minds, which is unpleasant, but nobody is left dead or even truly injured.  If I remember correctly this poster made a very interesting argument for Kylo being more of a wizard than warrior and using creative and original and often non-uber-violent means to achieve his goals.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

SanghaRen wrote:

DarthRen wrote:

SanghaRen wrote:I have to admit I have not read all the pages so pardon my silly and delayed question about the smashed mask. In some pages I read, it seems that a favorite speculation is that Kylo smashed it himself, but I am a bit confused : wasn't the mask actually destroyed at Starkiller base? To me this image looked more symbolic than part of the plot and I had the feeling that it might not even be in the film.

I think only Kylo has a red lightsaber. That lightsaber is such a big deal and part of kylo's image that it would cheapen it if anyone else had one.

@SanghaRen

His original mask was destroyed at SKB with his lightsaber but he's got a new one and the new helmet. Just seeing it might give him flashbacks to their fight where Rey disgraced him in his eyes, furthermore push his conflict and pain. It's basically a remainder of their fights but he doesn't need to hide himself anymore for artistic purposes and storytelling. Kylo needed to reveal himself to Rey and then Han. He has own villain scar (should I call it even a villain scar?) and probably in his own opinion intimidating look (more likely sad puppy look) and he doesn't need his helmet.

@DarthRen

His lightsaber was extinguished in the snow and one can imagine it can be repaired. His helmet though was on the bridge of Starkiller base which exploded.

I don't know but I could have gone with the idea that he has more than one helmet if they had shown him still masked in the trailer and poster, but they haven't so I have now my doubts there will be any helmet at all. Here, I give you Kylo and his scar in the trailer but then let's have him go around with his helmet at the beginning of TLJ, for nostalgia. I think they want us to get used to him without helmet as of, well, now. And it makes sense in the story. I think he crossed the line of not caring being recognized or needing a prop to look more terrifying.

That's why I saw this image as symbolic and was a bit surprised to read about Kylo smashing the helmet. Might be wrong but to me helmeted Kylo is gone, we'll have only scarred Kylo.

@"SanghaRen

I think that Jason said something about Kylo getting a new helmet ... one that is similar to the original one, but not exactly the same.  I could see a scene where he is handed this new helmet and he promptly smashes it not long after the receiving it.  I tend to think it is Kylo who destroyed it because of the way it was smoking, like the consoles had smoked after he tore them up. 

If that new helmet rumor is not true, it could be symbolic and just part of Rey's vision, telling her that something about the Kylo persona has broken.  I like the smashed helmet because the new canon has so much information about helmets and objects carrying darkness and this would make sense for Kylo since he tended to be at his "darkest" with the helmet.  I also like the idea of him fighting against that "darkness" if he smashes it himself.  I found it interesting in the trailer that when Rey said darkness that the shot was not on Kylo, but instead on this possibly tainted helmet.

@SoloSideCousin

We must have a mind-meld going today, because that was the exact scenario that I've been envisioning. In perhaps his first or second scene, some hapless FO person hands Kylo his new helmet...which, in a fit of rage, Kylo quickly takes a lightsaber to.

If he isn't the one who destroyed it, then why show it smoking like they did in the teaser?

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

SanghaRen wrote:

DarthRen wrote:

SanghaRen wrote:I have to admit I have not read all the pages so pardon my silly and delayed question about the smashed mask. In some pages I read, it seems that a favorite speculation is that Kylo smashed it himself, but I am a bit confused : wasn't the mask actually destroyed at Starkiller base? To me this image looked more symbolic than part of the plot and I had the feeling that it might not even be in the film.

I think only Kylo has a red lightsaber. That lightsaber is such a big deal and part of kylo's image that it would cheapen it if anyone else had one.

@SanghaRen

His original mask was destroyed at SKB with his lightsaber but he's got a new one and the new helmet. Just seeing it might give him flashbacks to their fight where Rey disgraced him in his eyes, furthermore push his conflict and pain. It's basically a remainder of their fights but he doesn't need to hide himself anymore for artistic purposes and storytelling. Kylo needed to reveal himself to Rey and then Han. He has own villain scar (should I call it even a villain scar?) and probably in his own opinion intimidating look (more likely sad puppy look) and he doesn't need his helmet.

@DarthRen

His lightsaber was extinguished in the snow and one can imagine it can be repaired. His helmet though was on the bridge of Starkiller base which exploded.

I don't know but I could have gone with the idea that he has more than one helmet if they had shown him still masked in the trailer and poster, but they haven't so I have now my doubts there will be any helmet at all. Here, I give you Kylo and his scar in the trailer but then let's have him go around with his helmet at the beginning of TLJ, for nostalgia. I think they want us to get used to him without helmet as of, well, now. And it makes sense in the story. I think he crossed the line of not caring being recognized or needing a prop to look more terrifying.

That's why I saw this image as symbolic and was a bit surprised to read about Kylo smashing the helmet. Might be wrong but to me helmeted Kylo is gone, we'll have only scarred Kylo.

@"SanghaRen

I think that Jason said something about Kylo getting a new helmet ... one that is similar to the original one, but not exactly the same.  I could see a scene where he is handed this new helmet and he promptly smashes it not long after the receiving it.  I tend to think it is Kylo who destroyed it because of the way it was smoking, like the consoles had smoked after he tore them up. 

If that new helmet rumor is not true, it could be symbolic and just part of Rey's vision, telling her that something about the Kylo persona has broken.  I like the smashed helmet because the new canon has so much information about helmets and objects carrying darkness and this would make sense for Kylo since he tended to be at his "darkest" with the helmet.  I also like the idea of him fighting against that "darkness" if he smashes it himself.  I found it interesting in the trailer that when Rey said darkness that the shot was not on Kylo, but instead on this possibly tainted helmet.

@SoloSideCousin

We must have a mind-meld going today, because that was the exact scenario that I've been envisioning. In perhaps his first or second scene, some hapless FO person hands Kylo his new helmet...which, in a fit of rage, Kylo quickly takes a lightsaber to.

If he isn't the one who destroyed it, then why show it smoking like they did in the teaser?

@ISeeAnIsland

Force bond!!! Lol!!!

But seriously, that trail of smoke is all him.

@SoloSideCousin

Ok, I see your point. For me it was a surprise that they showed him without helmet already now and especially on the official poster. I thought we would still get a helmeted Kylo in the promotion and only see his face in the second or third Kylo scene. I can't shake the feeling that the helmet moment is gone and we are to see Kylo as he is on the poster now. A smashing just after receiving a new one could make sense. More than that, I don't see the point. I never believed in a new different helmet. His helmet is iconic as is his lightsaber. Changing it would be unsettling and I fail to see what it would bring to the story especially with that thin scar.

IoJovi wrote:I love the left to right theory. It makes sense because Ben is her future!!! :jumping: :heart:

@IoJovi

1) Works because it's a pretty classic technique used in the OT and PT going back to David Lean, left to right is moving from past to present. Which is exactly what the ST is meant to do.

2) With the colors, same as the moment where they "feel the Force" together, shifts back and forth between the two of them and even merges.

As for the smashed helmet, I sort of wish that they had a moment like this between him and Rey



But main point is that we know he trashes things when he gets frustrated. The mask was the persona he's been hiding behind, which he dropped for Rey and then Han. Mask gone means not hiding anymore, also means more of Ben is coming back out.

SoloSideCousin wrote:I agree with all this.  A long time ago someone named @alixen posted an amazing essay about how all of Kylo's signature moves are actually inherently defensive and how though he employs the dark side he takes a middle road with it.  He freezes people.  He doesn't choke them to death.  He smashes computers when something goes wrong, instead of killing people like Vader.  He reads minds, which is unpleasant, but nobody is left dead or even truly injured.  If I remember correctly this poster made a very interesting argument for Kylo being more of a wizard than warrior and using creative and original and often non-uber-violent means to achieve his goals.

Yeah, that's also true that he takes out his violent fits on inanimate objects rather than people. My impression was that he wouldn't like to take it out on people or his officers. I am a little uncertain in that grabbing Mitaka by neck may have been foreshadowing, but if they continue with how this character *isn't* Darth Vader, I would expect him not to start choking his officers to death.

I like the idea of being more wizard than warrior in that I think Kylo's interest in knowledge/information/examining things outweighs his interest in fighting. Maybe he wasn't even all that interested in fighting when his training began (as Ben). He only really seemed so in his fight with Finn, which I thought might be a bit of an anomaly for him since he was so tremendously off balance after killing Han. He spent much of the fight with Rey trying to disarm her.

I don't know if anyone's talked about this but that trailer was chock full of fire and water and I feel like this is something Rian's going to be playing with a lot, the use of natural elements to depict the mood throughout the movie. But it also reminded me of all the yin and yang talk. I may be talking nonsense but I've noticed a trend in Rey's and Kylo's energy based on the element they're in. Rey was at her most powerful during the snow fight. Kylo was his most powerful at the beginning of the movie, when he was surrounded by fire. If you look at the elements represented by yin and yang than you'd think that the opposite should be true. Starkiller Base was on a snow planet and drained the sun's energy to power their weapon. You'd think Kylo would be more in his element surrounded by snow but it's shown that it's when he's at his weakest. It's only when the sun completely goes out that he actually kills Han. So I find it interesting that it might start raining on Ahch-To when he arrives, it could be a hint that he's no longer in his element.

IoJovi wrote:I love the left to right theory.  It makes sense because Ben is her future!!!  

@IoJovi

Wasn't there a whole left to right thing in Rey's Force vision in TFA - her past was her turning one way (left I think) and Kylo always appeared when she turned the other way (right?)??  Or am I dreaming that up????

As a leftie I never take offence when people talk about history or religion depicting leftness as 'wrong', especially as people I know still actually make a fuss about my handiness - which I am proud of given as only something like 10% of the world pop. are lefties.  I just know that in the past I'd have been dunked as a witch - given that I am left handed, blonde, have grey/blue eyes and fair skin.  Not confirming if I'd have survived tho!!!

I can see Kylo coming back to his quarters after getting out of the medical bay and see a new helmet sitting there, and then destroying it.

@Reynak Wow, I didn't know that! I don't think that Luke's evil but he may be in the wrong.

@nemaspara , agreed with the elements, and how the trailer is all about fire and water. On the other thread people are commenting on the similarities to The Last Airbender... Ha!

As to her body, more than right and left, I got an impression about body language. When a person is near someone they are interested in, they'll point their feet, torso, hips towards them.

Rey is looking more in Luke's direction. That's her conscious side. Her body is turned towards Kylo, that's unconscious. I'd say even her feet are pointing more towards Kylo. And that's what people do in a social situation when they are near someone they are interested in.

Not that I think Rey is interested in Kylo at the end of TFA. Curious, intrigued, but certainly pissed he killed Han. But what happens in TLJ? Who knows...

SanghaRen wrote:@SoloSideCousin

Ok, I see your point. For me it was a surprise that they showed him without helmet already now and especially on the official poster. I thought we would still get a helmeted Kylo in the promotion and only see his face in the second or third Kylo scene. I can't shake the feeling that the helmet moment is gone and we are to see Kylo as he is on the poster now. A smashing just after receiving a new one could make sense. More than that, I don't see the point. I never believed in a new different helmet. His helmet is iconic as is his lightsaber. Changing it would be unsettling and I fail to see what it would bring to the story especially with that thin scar.

@SanghaRen

I am going to guess that MSW got the "new mask" bit as part of seeing a prop list or prop description or something.

Remember that a lot of their spoilers this time around are prop-related. It wouldn't be a stretch for them to have gotten that info without any additional context. Even Jason seemed a bit confused by the mask, saying he didn't think Kylo would wearing it very long, given that it didn't really "go" with the rest of his new costume.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

SanghaRen wrote:@SoloSideCousin

Ok, I see your point. For me it was a surprise that they showed him without helmet already now and especially on the official poster. I thought we would still get a helmeted Kylo in the promotion and only see his face in the second or third Kylo scene. I can't shake the feeling that the helmet moment is gone and we are to see Kylo as he is on the poster now. A smashing just after receiving a new one could make sense. More than that, I don't see the point. I never believed in a new different helmet. His helmet is iconic as is his lightsaber. Changing it would be unsettling and I fail to see what it would bring to the story especially with that thin scar.

@SanghaRen

I am going to guess that MSW got the "new mask" bit as part of seeing a prop list or prop description or something.

Remember that a lot of their spoilers this time around are prop-related. It wouldn't be a stretch for them to have gotten that info without any additional context. Even Jason seemed a bit confused by the mask, saying he didn't think Kylo would wearing it very long, given that it didn't really "go" with the rest of his new costume.

@ISeeAnIsland

According to his last report on Kylo I bet Jason saw the photo without a mask on. Maybe even that battlefront photo.

MyOnlyHope wrote:When I saw the first stills of the Ahch-To tree, I just naturally assumed it was burned hundreds, maybe even thousands, of years prior to Luke's arrival. The manuscript in the teaser is already clearly charred, and the other books on the shelf look like they might be blackened as well.

The first Jedi abandoned their birthplace for some unknown reason. There's some ancient story behind that burned tree that has nothing to do with Luke or Kylo IMO. Chances are the history of the first Jedi wasn't all light and democracy. Again, just all part of this as of yet untold Jedi origin story. Not really worth all the conjecture because we have no chance whatsoever of guessing this kind of thing.

@MyOnlyHope

That's a brilliant find and I love your explanation. So what are the chances that Kylo tries to burn it down again? An overkill?

SanghaRen wrote:

DarthRen wrote:

SanghaRen wrote:I have to admit I have not read all the pages so pardon my silly and delayed question about the smashed mask. In some pages I read, it seems that a favorite speculation is that Kylo smashed it himself, but I am a bit confused : wasn't the mask actually destroyed at Starkiller base? To me this image looked more symbolic than part of the plot and I had the feeling that it might not even be in the film.

I think only Kylo has a red lightsaber. That lightsaber is such a big deal and part of kylo's image that it would cheapen it if anyone else had one.

@SanghaRen

His original mask was destroyed at SKB with his lightsaber but he's got a new one and the new helmet. Just seeing it might give him flashbacks to their fight where Rey disgraced him in his eyes, furthermore push his conflict and pain. It's basically a remainder of their fights but he doesn't need to hide himself anymore for artistic purposes and storytelling. Kylo needed to reveal himself to Rey and then Han. He has own villain scar (should I call it even a villain scar?) and probably in his own opinion intimidating look (more likely sad puppy look) and he doesn't need his helmet.

@DarthRen

His lightsaber was extinguished in the snow and one can imagine it can be repaired. His helmet though was on the bridge of Starkiller base which exploded.

I don't know but I could have gone with the idea that he has more than one helmet if they had shown him still masked in the trailer and poster, but they haven't so I have now my doubts there will be any helmet at all. Here, I give you Kylo and his scar in the trailer but then let's have him go around with his helmet at the beginning of TLJ, for nostalgia. I think they want us to get used to him without helmet as of, well, now. And it makes sense in the story. I think he crossed the line of not caring being recognized or needing a prop to look more terrifying.

That's why I saw this image as symbolic and was a bit surprised to read about Kylo smashing the helmet. Might be wrong but to me helmeted Kylo is gone, we'll have only scarred Kylo.

@SanghaRen

I didn't expected Kylo at all and not to mention without his helmet= symbol of his darkness and in such a way destroying this piece connecting him to the Dark Side. It's funny because our sad puppy wants to belong to the darkness and yet everything he's done or most of it is the exact opposite of pushing him the other way.

It's hard to say if Kylo had any more helmets but if he did or not, destroying is a significant step as many here pointed out. Maybe I misheard it but I do think his lightsaber was destoroyed and probably whoever picked him up retrieved it. Changing his lightsaber or helmet to different would be a bad idea because too many changes is not exactly what needs to be done. Vader for sure had other modifications but we know him with his classic look. So next step for Kylo was probably to go forward without his helmet.

It makes me smile thinking of how little we've seen in this marketing so far of Kylo being some cackling maniacal or even particularly angry and aggressive villain. That destroyed helmet says it all to me. Some people say it's indicative of him not needing it because he really IS that evil now, but that's a weak interpretation. That "handsome" scar instead of a big, scary gash and his soulful eye on the poster says otherwise.

And here I thought he'd look totally evil in marketing to throw people off. I guess they're trying to send a stronger message of where the movies are going instead of throwing some secretive veil over it all. I like it!

vaderito wrote:

MyOnlyHope wrote:When I saw the first stills of the Ahch-To tree, I just naturally assumed it was burned hundreds, maybe even thousands, of years prior to Luke's arrival. The manuscript in the teaser is already clearly charred, and the other books on the shelf look like they might be blackened as well.

The first Jedi abandoned their birthplace for some unknown reason. There's some ancient story behind that burned tree that has nothing to do with Luke or Kylo IMO. Chances are the history of the first Jedi wasn't all light and democracy. Again, just all part of this as of yet untold Jedi origin story. Not really worth all the conjecture because we have no chance whatsoever of guessing this kind of thing.

@MyOnlyHope

That's a brilliant find and I love your explanation. So what are the chances that Kylo tries to burn it down again? An overkill?

@vaderito

Maybe the fire is a booby trap, thinking along the lines of Raiders of The Lost Ark. Kylo could have unwittingly triggered one of its ancient defences or perhaps something Luke put in place in case he ever showed up.

vaderito wrote:@Reynak Wow, I didn't know that! I don't think that Luke's evil but he may be in the wrong.

@vaderito

Also, when Kylo approached Rey and Finn, he approached them from the left. He was the villain and they were the good guys. When he and Rey were by the ravine, he was on the left too, and when the ground parted and they were on separte sides, he was left on th eleft side and was rescued by FO bad guys. The Falcon, Rey and Finn were on the right.

When Rey approaches Luke and offers him the Lightsaber she is the one on the right. Luke is on the left, like in the poster.it may be coincidental or show that Luke is the past and Rey the future, which is obviously true, but without any Darkside associations. But I think there's something wrong with Luke. I don't think he is evil but I think he's probably done something that is wrong. He looks haunted and so sad when he meets Rey, I think he feels guilty for something that happened, and this surely involves Kylo and is related to his downfall.

Something different. Kylo's cowl looks tattered and it's similar to Luke's but darker. Is it part of the clothes he wore when he was with Luke? Is it tattered or singed?

Was it partially burned when the temple, the academy, the ancient tree, or whatever it was got burned?

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:

vaderito wrote:

MyOnlyHope wrote:When I saw the first stills of the Ahch-To tree, I just naturally assumed it was burned hundreds, maybe even thousands, of years prior to Luke's arrival. The manuscript in the teaser is already clearly charred, and the other books on the shelf look like they might be blackened as well.

The first Jedi abandoned their birthplace for some unknown reason. There's some ancient story behind that burned tree that has nothing to do with Luke or Kylo IMO. Chances are the history of the first Jedi wasn't all light and democracy. Again, just all part of this as of yet untold Jedi origin story. Not really worth all the conjecture because we have no chance whatsoever of guessing this kind of thing.

@MyOnlyHope

That's a brilliant find and I love your explanation. So what are the chances that Kylo tries to burn it down again? An overkill?

@vaderito

Maybe the fire is a booby trap, thinking along the lines of Raiders of The Lost Ark. Kylo could have unwittingly triggered one of its ancient defences or perhaps something Luke put in place in case he ever showed up.

@Mrs Ben Solo

I like this explanation a lot....and once the fire starts, maybe Luke and Rey land up and there is a fight? (it could explain Rey running in the trailer)

Reynak wrote:

vaderito wrote:@Reynak Wow, I didn't know that! I don't think that Luke's evil but he may be in the wrong.

@vaderito

Also, when Kylo approached Rey and Finn, he approached them from the left. He was the villain and they were the good guys. When he and Rey were by the ravine, he was on the left too, and when the ground parted and they were on separte sides, he was left on th eleft side and was rescued by FO bad guys. The Falcon, Rey and Finn were on the right.

When Rey approaches Luke and offers him the Lightsaber she is the one on the right. Luke is on the left, like in the poster.it may be coincidental or show that Luke is the past and Rey the future, which is obviously true, but without any Darkside associations. But I think there's something wrong with Luke. I don't think he is evil but I think he's probably done something that is wrong. He looks haunted and so sad when he meets Rey, I think he feels guilty for something that happened, and this surely involves Kylo and is related to his downfall.

Something different. Kylo's cowl looks tattered and it's similar to Luke's but darker. Is it part of the clothes he wore when he was with Luke? Is it tattered or scorched?

Was it partially burned when the temple, the academy, the ancient tree, or whatever it was got burned?

@Reynak

This is incredible! SW supposedly does Lawrence of Arabia left/right thing so you are right. Kylo's cowl is form his student days and it is signed. Supposedly when the temple burned.

Rogue Rey wrote:

IoJovi wrote:I love the left to right theory.  It makes sense because Ben is her future!!!  

@IoJovi

Wasn't there a whole left to right thing in Rey's Force vision in TFA - her past was her turning one way (left I think) and Kylo always appeared when she turned the other way (right?)??  Or am I dreaming that up????

As a leftie I never take offence when people talk about history or religion depicting leftness as 'wrong', especially as people I know still actually make a fuss about my handiness - which I am proud of given as only something like 10% of the world pop. are lefties.  I just know that in the past I'd have been dunked as a witch - given that I am left handed, blonde, have grey/blue eyes and fair skin.  Not confirming if I'd have survived tho!!!

@Rogue Rey

I think most of us would have been taken for witches in the old days, LOL. Witches were usually free spirited women and healers and there was nothing wrong with them but being different was seen as a problem then. They just didn't let people live their lives in peace.

@SoloSideCousin

About young Ben being the one interested in balancing the force, and Luke fearing it. 

It goes well with what Han said in TFA. "One boy, destroyed it all."

I can imagine young starry eyed Ben feeling like a genius when he realizes that the Light and the Dark can work together. He enthusiastically presents that to his uncle and parents who are immediately taken aback and react without even listening to his explanations.

Leia: Gasp! No Ben! Not the Dark Side! 
[size=42]Luke: It leads to nothing good Ben! It will corrupt you![/size]
[size=42]Han: Aaargh! There's too much Vader in him![/size]


[size=42]So Ben is shunned and treated with kid gloves and they tiptoe around him like he'll Force choke them any moment. And Snoke, having been in his head always, waiting for the perfect moment to strike uses this opportunity to coax Ben. [/size]


[size=42]Snoke: They won't listen to you? Tell me. They don't appreciate your discoveries? I will. They don't understand your power? Share it with me. [/size]

Perhaps Ben bends a little towards Snoke, but by the Vader reveal, he'll be convinced entirely that his family were liars and hypocrites and he leaves? Is kidnapped? However it happened, he has certainly changed his loyalties

Spoilers say that Snoke is a materialist only interested in power, but not really some learned Dark sider. Maybe he wants to have Ben, the only force user to utilize both Light and Dark, on his side and so he can use that power someday. 

For the OT3, they believe Ben has fallen. They think that what little Ben may have learned of the Dark Side has led to the ruin of Luke's new order. Han thinks only of Vader. While Leia is hopeful but only understands the Light side of Ben. "There's still light it him." may sound like the most hopeful phrase, but it still shows how both parents misunderstood their son.

Luke becomes jaded and as everything falls apart, he leaves. Maybe to continue looking for the mysteries of the Force. Maybe despite his researching, he still hasn't accepted the idea of a balance between Light and Dark. And if Kylo introduces this to Rey and Luke walks in on that, then we get angry Luke.

Rei of Sunshine wrote:@SoloSideCousin

About young Ben being the one interested in balancing the force, and Luke fearing it. 

It goes well with what Han said in TFA. "One boy, destroyed it all."

I can imagine young starry eyed Ben feeling like a genius when he realizes that the Light and the Dark can work together. He enthusiastically presents that to his uncle and parents who are immediately taken aback and react without even listening to his explanations.

Leia: Gasp! No Ben! Not the Dark Side! 
[size=42]Luke: It leads to nothing good Ben! It will corrupt you![/size]
[size=42]Han: Aaargh! There's too much Vader in him![/size]


[size=42]So Ben is shunned and treated with kid gloves and they tiptoe around him like he'll Force choke them any moment. And Snoke, having been in his head always, waiting for the perfect moment to strike uses this opportunity to coax Ben. [/size]


[size=42]Snoke: They won't listen to you? Tell me. They don't appreciate your discoveries? I will. They don't understand your power? Share it with me. [/size]

Perhaps Ben bends a little towards Snoke, but by the Vader reveal, he'll be convinced entirely that his family were liars and hypocrites and he leaves? Is kidnapped? However it happened, he has certainly changed his loyalties

Spoilers say that Snoke is a materialist only interested in power, but not really some learned Dark sider. Maybe he wants to have Ben, the only force user to utilize both Light and Dark, on his side and so he can use that power someday. 

For the OT3, they believe Ben has fallen. They think that what little Ben may have learned of the Dark Side has led to the ruin of Luke's new order. Han thinks only of Vader. While Leia is hopeful but only understands the Light side of Ben. "There's still light it him." may sound like the most hopeful phrase, but it still shows how both parents misunderstood their son.

Luke becomes jaded and as everything falls apart, he leaves. Maybe to continue looking for the mysteries of the Force. Maybe despite his researching, he still hasn't accepted the idea of a balance between Light and Dark. And if Kylo introduces this to Rey and Luke walks in on that, then we get angry Luke.

@Rei of Sunshine

Excellent thoughts on all of this. I could totally see some scenario like this happening, particularly if Kylo/Ben is more wizard/alchemist than warrior. With his tremendous mind powers, he perhaps could see things and make connections that Luke never could, even when young, and that would terrify the whole family and thus alienate him and push him to a waiting Snoke. But because Rey will be his mental equal, she will be able to "see things ... the balance" too. :-)

ZioRen wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:I can't help but notice what looks like another cut just by his hairline above his ear - unless it's just his hair.

Could it be a result of the 'sea monster' fight?

@motherofpearl1

Late to this but I see it too. I thought it was hair but it kind of looks like a stitched gash.

@ZioRen

Which is why I think it's later in the film, post Ahct To; Kylo did not suffer any head wounds during the Starkiller fight, and this injury looks fresh unlike the facial scar.

Rei of Sunshine wrote:@SoloSideCousin

About young Ben being the one interested in balancing the force, and Luke fearing it. 

It goes well with what Han said in TFA. "One boy, destroyed it all."

I can imagine young starry eyed Ben feeling like a genius when he realizes that the Light and the Dark can work together. He enthusiastically presents that to his uncle and parents who are immediately taken aback and react without even listening to his explanations.

Leia: Gasp! No Ben! Not the Dark Side! 
[size=42]Luke: It leads to nothing good Ben! It will corrupt you![/size]
[size=42]Han: Aaargh! There's too much Vader in him![/size]


[size=42]So Ben is shunned and treated with kid gloves and they tiptoe around him like he'll Force choke them any moment. And Snoke, having been in his head always, waiting for the perfect moment to strike uses this opportunity to coax Ben. [/size]


[size=42]Snoke: They won't listen to you? Tell me. They don't appreciate your discoveries? I will. They don't understand your power? Share it with me. [/size]

Perhaps Ben bends a little towards Snoke, but by the Vader reveal, he'll be convinced entirely that his family were liars and hypocrites and he leaves? Is kidnapped? However it happened, he has certainly changed his loyalties

Spoilers say that Snoke is a materialist only interested in power, but not really some learned Dark sider. Maybe he wants to have Ben, the only force user to utilize both Light and Dark, on his side and so he can use that power someday. 

For the OT3, they believe Ben has fallen. They think that what little Ben may have learned of the Dark Side has led to the ruin of Luke's new order. Han thinks only of Vader. While Leia is hopeful but only understands the Light side of Ben. "There's still light it him." may sound like the most hopeful phrase, but it still shows how both parents misunderstood their son.

Luke becomes jaded and as everything falls apart, he leaves. Maybe to continue looking for the mysteries of the Force. Maybe despite his researching, he still hasn't accepted the idea of a balance between Light and Dark. And if Kylo introduces this to Rey and Luke walks in on that, then we get angry Luke.

@Rei of Sunshine

This is a very good theory.