Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

snufkin wrote:@Kylo Rey We'll have to see what JJ does with him in IX because Kylo's unmasking did come with an ungodly amount of hairspray. What hair would be fitting for a Dark Prince/Supreme Leader who's trying to pretend he didn't get dumped by the Scavenger Girl?

@snufkin

All this hair talk. I ended up having a crazy dream last night that they totally butchered Kylos hair for IX.

@Tex That can be IX’s plotline, Rey can have a dream like RotS except that instead of Padme dying in childbirth it’ll be something bad happening to Kylo’s hair and she swears to do anything, even if it means falling to the DS, to prevent it

@snufkin

It was a really bad haircut, so I think it makes for a perfect plot for IX.

Also in my dream Rey became possessed by an evil dark side entity and Ben couldn't figure out what what was wrong with her lol. All of it took place in Las Vegas during some kind of masquerade event lol.

@Tex “Did you ever hear the tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise? ... Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith, so powerful and so wise he could use the Force to influence the hair follicles to always stay glossy and wavy with no frizzing.”

Maybe your dream was inspired by Rian Johnson’s tweets about being a PotO super fan and seeing it by himself in Las Vegas

The TLJ Official Movie Companion downloaded on my kindle yesterday.

It’s quite fascinating to see Kylo’s description followed by Hux’s description. I suppose those already leaked weeks ago - I was not much here then. And I don’t know if this very funny fact was mentioned previously: all the First Order characters’ names are in red in the descriptive box except Kylo’s.

@SanghaRen quite different in tone, eh, those descriptions?

It kind of amazes me after TLJ, how people didn't pick up on what a ruthless jerk Hux really is.....he will be the big bad in the next movie.

Birdwoman wrote:It kind of amazes me after TLJ, how people didn't pick up on what a ruthless jerk Hux really is.....he will be the big bad in the next movie.

@Birdwoman

Yeah, Hux has flied under the radar for a long time. Its incredible how Kylo’s journey is more about him finding his place, but Hux is already established and more ready for an extroverted action. I remember reading a novel long ago, it was basically people vs the system. And no mather how the main characters were bright and talanted, they were constantly opressed, while the main we would call him villain was just an ordinary person, quitly rising above ranks and not particularly brave but quite easy to adapt and to lie. And then in one moment he sriked to destroy the main heroes. Hux reminds me of that character - especially in TLJ. They always emphasize that he considers himself to be perfect for ruling and yet there is always this mix of envy and inferiority in which he would always prefer to see the world burn and blame everyone else than himself which is directly opposite to Kylo who hates himself for being a monster. And while Kylo is more preoccupied with his introverted values and world, Hux has no problem to strike against him.
Hope they do something cool with Hux in IX.

I saw a tweet saying something to the effect of "remember when we loved Han and Leia and had no idea we'd be obsessed over their future son" and that is such a big mood. They were one of my favourite fictional couples ever and then they have a son who goes on to become one of my favourite characters ever and being one half of a fantastic, galaxy changing couple himself. And if you'd told me years ago that the son would kill his father too... what are the odds of all that? We are truly blessed to have such a character.

@Kylo Rey - lovely thought Kylo Rey! So true!  Having read The Last Shot it was wonderful for giving a glimpse of Han and Leia as a married couple, and as parents -before the big dramas went down. Have you read it? They were not perfect, but they were happy together.. and it was clear to me that they both loved their son and each other

I've not had much OL time for SW lately but in quiet moments of late, I've found myself drawn back to ST story of the myth of the Jedi, Luke Skywalker, heroes, Luke's arc, and the arc of Jedi etc.  
Luke's arc in TLJ found him eventually accepting and embracing that myth for all the good it can bring - even if he knew all too well how flawed he was as an individual (as we all are), he could see the Luke Skywalker Jedi myth was extremely powerful - in bringing hope to the galaxy.. In a deleted scene Rey explicitly states the Luke Skywalker myth had meant a lot to her and been extremely important.

Sooooo Why is this in the Kylo Ren thread?
I never really stopped to think about Kylo/Ben and the myths, heros and wider beliefs in something powerful that inspire hope and give confidence. you know?  Young boys love their heros. Superheros!
Just playing around with all this.. I'm thinking Uncle Luke the Jedi was probably viewed as a bit of a superhero by Ben at least at some point. Even though he was family, Luke Skywalker did do amazing things and was a hero of the galaxy. We don't really know much about Kylo/Ben's interior life back then so far.. but I am thinking that for Ben, the myths of the Jedi and Luke Skywalker would have been an important hope he shared at one point in his life. Heros he looked up to... Just like Rey did.
When the tragic confrontation happened, Ben lost his hope in the Jedi, the legend and powerful Luke Skywalker, and he lost his heros I think.
One story in TLJ relates to meeting your hero..
Daisy said in an interview (Source) "...where we begin with The Last Jedi is Rey has a certain expectation as to what she might be getting from Luke and what that might entail. And as a lot of people know, it’s difficult when you meet your heroes because it might not be what you expect."
This was Rey's experience in TLJ and maybe part of Ben's earlier journey too. His hero turned out to be a total letdown!
On a personal level he lost faith in his family, and someone he loved and trusted but I'm more focused on the broader myths and their power here with this comment.

If Ben had no faith in the Jedi or Luke Skywalker, what was left? there were no other powerful myths for him to turn to... except maybe - the dark side? Having lost belief in the myths and legends (one element of his legacy) he turned to the only other powerful force user in play (Snoke) and to the other element of his legacy (Vader), and myths of the dark side.. maybe in the dark, there is something he can believe in- even if it is only in himself and his own ascendance (the selfishness of this focus is itself the definition of the dark side).

Kylo was abandoned by his family, and lost his faith in the Jedi/Luke Skywalker the legend - all at once.
Rey was abandoned by her family, but for years she still looked to the good the jedi order had accomplished, and the legend of Luke Skywalker as a hope for her and the galaxy..she had that hope to cling to where Kylo/Ben did not and could not. It was ripped away from him.
Interesting to compare the two.
At the end of TLJ, I think Rey has regained her belief in Luke Skywalker - the man and the Jedi.  
I think at the end of TLJ Kylo/Ben has not forgiven, forgotten or healed his relationship with his uncle Luke Skywalker. How close he is to re-embracing the myth of the Jedi is for us to find out in IX...
Thoughts on this anyone?
There is a passage in the novelisation which alludes to all this I think - so much of Kylo/Ben's internal journey is not explicitly stated, I think this passage speaks to Kylo/Ben, myths, when he stopped believing in them, and how he views them at the Crait confrontation..
page 299: [the FO has just fired all their guns on Luke]
Far below the shuttle, the column of smoke and flame continued to whirl and churn. Kylo stared down at the salt plains, but his gaze couldn’t penetrate the aftermath of the destruction.
Hux eyed Ren with disdain. “Now, if we’re ready to get moving, we can finish this.”
“Sir…” the shuttle’s commander said tentatively.
Beside him, Kylo raised his eyes almost unwillingly. As if what was happening below them wouldn’t become real if he didn’t look.
But that only worked in ancient myths, the kind of stories told to entertain children.
Out of the fiery column below stepped Luke Skywalker, his robes not so much as singed, his gaze still locked on the shuttle. He brushed invisible dust from his shoulders, his face radiating contempt.
Kylo got to his feet, eyes riveted on his uncle.
“Bring me down to him,” he ordered the pilot. “And don’t advance our forces until I say.”

The bolded reference to ancient myths being something he has outgrown, to me, speaks to his loss of innocence - the great myth Luke Skywalker turned out to be his murderous uncle who rejected him and betrayed him.
Just something I've been pondering.. anyone else thought about this?

Saw a thread titled 'Throne room scene in The Last Jedi and what Kylo says (spoilers)' while browsing the off topic of a very popular forum

Was bracing myself for the typical evul Kylo, he's gaslighting her etc etc but I was pleasantly surprised by the majority of the thread! You had the occasional he's manipulative, evil villain, no redemption etc but this is so refreshing. Highlights how much of a tragic character Ben Solo is.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/throne-room-scene-in-the-last-jedi-and-what-kylo-says-spoilers.54674/

Edit: link added

Great comments. That last comment times 100.

New pics going around on Twitter

Guess I'll put this here! Apparently there may have been a version of Kylo's throne room proposal where he says "please" to Rey twice. My heart is in a puddle at the bottom of my stomach, why didn't they leave this in???

https://xennial-sw-fan.tumblr.com/post/177792442198/the-behind-the-scenes-of-the-last-jedi-showed-an

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:

@Cowgirlsamurai
The background looks like the old Rebel base on Crait. I'm wondering if it's an alternate version of his last scene because he doesn't have his cape on.

Moonlight13 wrote:

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:

@Cowgirlsamurai
The background looks like the old Rebel base on Crait. I'm wondering if it's an alternate version of his last scene because he doesn't have his cape on.

@Moonlight13

I had assumed this was the throne room while Rey was being tortured, but I think you’re right. It’s the very last Force bond scene. No wonder he looks like a kicked puppy!

Moonlight13 wrote:

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:

@Cowgirlsamurai
The background looks like the old Rebel base on Crait. I'm wondering if it's an alternate version of his last scene because he doesn't have his cape on.

@Moonlight13

Yeah, he’s looking up to Rey on the Falcon

ZioRen wrote:Guess I'll put this here! Apparently there may have been a version of Kylo's throne room proposal where he says "please" to Rey twice. My heart is in a puddle at the bottom of my stomach, why didn't they leave this in???

https://xennial-sw-fan.tumblr.com/post/177792442198/the-behind-the-scenes-of-the-last-jedi-showed-an

@ZioRen

I think I remember a version of this from Director and the Jedi, but where he took his glove off too, as he had in the handholding scene. I think it's the less is more approach they've been using through the ST. Like how JJ said that Kasdan was always pulling back from the extra dialogue found in the scripts, and the novelization based on the early scripts. You can get that he's vulnerable in the movie version.

Plus the scene doesn't want to portray him as sympathetically as in the hand touch scene, since he's suggesting something inherently bad (galactic domination). We the viewers are supposed to be more on Rey's side, so we believe she has the moral high ground. But of course that doesn't stop him from looking all lonely and sad, as in the last force bond scene.

californiagirl wrote:

ZioRen wrote:Guess I'll put this here! Apparently there may have been a version of Kylo's throne room proposal where he says "please" to Rey twice. My heart is in a puddle at the bottom of my stomach, why didn't they leave this in???

https://xennial-sw-fan.tumblr.com/post/177792442198/the-behind-the-scenes-of-the-last-jedi-showed-an

@ZioRen

I think I remember a version of this from Director and the Jedi, but where he took his glove off too, as he had in the handholding scene. I think it's the less is more approach they've been using through the ST. Like how JJ said that Kasdan was always pulling back from the extra dialogue found in the scripts, and the novelization based on the early scripts. You can get that he's vulnerable in the movie version.

Plus the scene doesn't want to portray him as sympathetically as in the hand touch scene, since he's suggesting something inherently bad (galactic domination). We the viewers are supposed to be more on Rey's side, so we believe she has the moral high ground. But of course that doesn't stop him from looking all lonely and sad, as in the last force bond scene.

@californiagirl

There’s also the symbolism with Rey accepting his hand with the glove off vs her rejecting him with the glove on that would have been lost had they gone that route. I’m glad the end result ended up the way it did as it gives me great hope for IX.

Source:http://creationsvixen.tumblr.com/post/177881871887

In Jedi the Last, Kylo is certain that Leia died after the FO attack to their ships (he even goes on a monologue about being an orphan and how he f**** up), so yeah, it's highly possible that he didn't knew she was on Crait.

Piper Maru wrote:In Jedi the Last, Kylo is certain that Leia died after the FO attack to their ships (he even goes on a monologue about being an orphan and how he f**** up), so yeah, it's highly possible that he didn't knew she was on Crait.

@Piper Maru

I’m at the point now where I’m like, “Okay Matt Martin, I see you.”

The ultimate question TLJ poses is Will Kylo Be Redeemed, especially since we know now without a doubt Rey isn’t related to the family. Given that SW is and always been an optimistic story, I think it’s pretty easy to see he will. The audience not knowing if Ben knows his mother is alive while he cites No Quarter, No Prisoners is part of that mystery box question.

So I’d say ultimately he does not know his mother lives at this point.

Oh sh*t so that he’s evil villain watching his arch nemesis flee face? He’s gonna be totes evil in IX

This Reddit post about Kylo from a few months ago tho

Kylo believes he is past help, any yet he still feels the pull to the light. The only way for him to snuff this out is by "killing the past." But in The Last Jedi we see that this is not only impossible, but that it is not in fact what he really wants. Look at his despairing expression when Han's dice disappear from his hand. He suddenly realizes that he belongs to no one and nowhere. He has, in a sense, turned himself into Rey--looking for belonging and meaning, unable to find it. It is why they feel such an intrinsic connection. The only difference is Kylo had that belonging in his past, but he lost it. To him, Luke will always be responsible for that.

Kylo Rey wrote:Saw a thread titled 'Throne room scene in The Last Jedi and what Kylo says (spoilers)' while browsing the off topic of a very popular forum

Was bracing myself for the typical evul Kylo, he's gaslighting her etc etc but I was pleasantly surprised by the majority of the thread! You had the occasional he's manipulative, evil villain, no redemption etc but this is so refreshing. Highlights how much of a tragic character Ben Solo is.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/throne-room-scene-in-the-last-jedi-and-what-kylo-says-spoilers.54674/

Edit: link added

@Kylo Rey

So, umm, I read that entire thread and am I missing something here, because MOST of the thread was full of those "Evil Space Hitler" comments and I saw NO mention of Kylo's very last appearance (the one with the dice in his hands)... only the fact that he's now "fully corrupted".

I'm a little wierded out here tbh lol. Can you maybe point me to some of the more nuanced comments?