Predictions for Episode 9

We're making long elaborate wish lists? Okay, here goes an obscenely long… thing. Of some kind. Who know how much of this will actually happen? They kind of get increasingly more trivial as they go.

First and most obviously is Ben Solo's redemption, preferably beginning in the first or early second act.

Also Reylo. That's kind of thing some of us are interested in.

It's never been done in SW before, but an epilogue might be interesting, perhaps a few years later. It would provide a contrast to the end of RotJ, which kind of boiled down to "we threw the bad ruler down a shaft and blew up their ships, everything is better now!" What happened after? And honestly, the film's title is a bit baffling, as the only Jedi who returned was Luke, and kind of Anakin. This would cement the character's full arcs, and show long-ish term effects of the character's victory.

Rey-Rose friendship please. I think Rose sees past everyone's BS, including Rey's. Maybe they can bond over being mech heads or something.

Stormtrooper rebellion! Please? What a perfect full circle end to Finn's arc that would be.

Awesome metaphorical Ben rebirth sequence. Paired with awesome John Williams music. I see potential for religious imagery, as religious metaphors have been used extensively in SW.

Reylo on the run/Reylo vs. Resistance beginning around halfway mark. Like to save one or both of them, or help the Resistance if they go that route, they actually have to go against the system. That will blow people's minds, and probably inspired a large number of outraged think pieces.

Different or no Jedi order. It's legitimately alarming how many people took the prequel Jedi at face value and think they didn't do or believe anything wrong. Like it was just Palpatine is bad, and Anakin was too old to be trained and did things he shouldn't. These are the same people who think imposing politics on SW is contrary to George's vision. As if it wasn't a 6-film Vietnam War metaphor.

Different/no Galactic Republic 3.0. Basically the same paragraph as above.

Not sure if they'd go for that kind of political commentary, it's not in JJ's usual realm and not a big focus of the ST, but given how times have quickly changed and the hypersensitivity people have to "Kylo's redemption is fascist sympathizing," who knows if they'll change their approach.

Lots of JJ's fairy tale aesthetic, imagery, and tropes. Layer it on thick! Wouldn't blame them if they went classic Disney movie-style. Given they already subverted the damsel in distress trope in TFA, it's only another step to have Rey save Ben. It's like Rey and Ben are both the Disney princess at the same time. I'm sure somebody's going to claim that SW got Disneyfied. Like people don't realize that SW fits in the Disney mold better than Marvel. Wonder if there will be a continuation of the absurdly sexual imagery of TLJ.

TLJ and the various ancillary materials make it look like Hux will at least attempt a coup. Don't know if it works, but it might be helpful to see SL Hux as a contrast to Kylo. Also I hope he dies because of his own power lust or stupidity. Like he's the contrast of winning by saving what you love, not destroying what you hate.

I don't think a Leia-Ben reunion would happen onscreen anymore, but maybe indirectly/offscreen through writing or actions.

Ben flying the Falcon. Just because it make people so mad.

Ben wearing something that isn't all black.

Do they mention or show Padme through hologram via R2-D2?

Do you get an Anakin force ghost, even though I don't actually like force ghosts that much? I think Hayden could manage one scene with better writing and direction than he had in the PT. Though it would raise the question of why or how did he not appear before that.

Luke force ghost. Really already confirmed. He had left both Rey and Ben on bad notes, so that needs closure. They need to be careful not to overuse him, or his death doesn't have the same impact. Still, I wonder if his mere presence could help to vouch for redeemed Ben if he needs him.

Not sure if they could get Harrsion to do it, but given Carrie's passing, I wonder if Han would be in a vision/dream sequence Kylo has, like Harry and Dumbledore in the last Harry Potter book/movie.

Lando survives! Can one OT character live? I doubt his role is huge, but I hope he gets an emotional scene with Ben. We can dream. It might be a little awkward given he wasn't mentioned in either previous film.

There could potentially be more backstory/flashbacks of Ben, Luke, his Jedi students, and/or Snoke. Don't know how far they'll go with it, but it seems they're hiding much of Ben's story, and not making any EU things about it, for a reason.

Acknowledgment of the force bond in TFA. I found it odd LF revealed the skillset download via the SG and TLJ novel, which Jason Fry has talked about a number of times, before addressing it onscreen, but maybe they wanted to try suppressing the "Mary Sue!" complaints. It will be challenging to incorporate this gracefully into the last film without seeming like it's a retcon or just making something up as they go, especially given the prevailing belief there is no plan, and people seem to not trust JJ.

Addressing Rey's feelings for Ben and her temptation to accept his offer in TLJ, as well as her darkness/anger/violence/impulsiveness and the mistakes they've caused.

SW isn't generally a model of subtlety. Especially given the confusion most of the audience seems to have regarding what the ST about or even what to be invested in, I wouldn't blame anyone if they decided to spell out the themes and purpose of the trilogy, and really point out its' connections to earlier Star Wars films.

Do they go back to Jakku, if just for the "nobody wants to go back to Jakku" callback joke?

We already got pictures of Finn-Poe adventures, so that's happening.

The Knights of Ren might or might not be there, they're JJ's baby and Rian indicated they're still alive, as he considered them we don't need a super-elaborate backstory, that's more for books, comics, and/or a miniseries on Disney+.

I wouldn't be surprised if Maz Kanata was more prominent. They shoehorned her into TLJ likely because her relevance is for the last film. She knows things, all that cryptic dialogue about "there's someone who could come back" and that Rey knew her family wasn't coming back for her. Does JJ go back to the very heavily hinted story of how she got the blue saber? It seems fans are into the idea of her and Lando's space pirate ships. I'm sure they'll milk both characters in the EU.

On a sort of nerdy, nitpicky lightsaber note, do they fix the blue saber? Who does it belong to? Does Rey get her own saber? Where's Luke's green saber he presumably ditched after he held it over his sleeping nephew's head? Does Ben get one of them? Or just fuse them into a double bladed saber that infuriates old timey fans.

Rey has a pattern of knocking down major male characters to the ground. Finn and Kylo in TFA, Luke in TLJ. So… Hux and Poe in IX?

Some fans want R2-D2 and Ben to write the Skywalker saga a la Bilbo Baggins in The Hobbit. I do hope R2-D2, having witnessed this whole multi-generational drama, has some kind of contribution.

Star Wars Episode IX: Return of the Floof Hair

Porgs. It would be the biggest shock of the ST if they didn't show up, because they're waddling feathered dollar signs. And I'm down for whatever those horsie things will end up being.

DJ's importance to the main plot and its characters is gone, but I wonder if he gets a little cameo somehow.

Some acknowledgment of Holdo? Though SW doesn't dwell on or mourn for the dead for too long.

I'm calling it, an Ewok is going to be an Easter egg. It's such low-hanging fruit, they're bound to grab it.

Please let Rose wear something other than that awful Resistance jumpsuit.

My predictions for IX (these are what I think will happen as opposed to what I’d like to see)

More focus on the Resistance - Based on filming spoilers and JJ’s focus in TFA. I predict a deeper delve into the Resistance characters as individuals and as a collective force for good. I just rewatched The Lord of The Rings trilogy and I imagined something like in Return of The King where the heroes are all respectively preparing for what could be their last battles. This happens in the final act of most long running sagas such as Harry Potter too.

The Knights of Ren are part of another flashback sequence but are otherwise not prominent in the story - unless Kerri Russell is playing a surviving KoR, which I would love to see. I do still hold with the theory that the KoR are dead by Kylo or Snoke’s hands.

Dominic Monaghan is playing someone on the Resistance side of things. Richard E. Grant and Kerri Russell are affiliated with the FO. Matt Smith, I’m less certain of, but I’m inclined to put him in the villain corner for some reason.

The First Order remain more nebulous but there will be enough to make them a credible threat to the galaxy at large. I’m less certain about Hux staging a coup now but I do think it will be made clear from the get go that Kylo Ren doesn’t have the support he needs among the remaining FO hierarchy.

The force bond between Rey and Kylo won’t be active until a pivotal plot moment. I don’t see JJ wanting to use the force bond too much but I expect one or two emotional scenes.

Luke as a force ghost will also be used sparingly. I would love to see Hayden Christensen back as Anakin but I’m not holding my breath for it.

I’m intrigued to see what they do with the footage of Carrie Fisher. I would predict a scene with Maz as they did record stuff between Maz and Leia for TFA. I’m also expecting some kind of message of hope to be sent out across the galaxy. I would have loved to see a mother and son reunion/reconciliation but it’s unlikely they had any footage to repurpose for those. It would be lovely if there was something for Ben from his mother.

I don’t really have any firm predictions for Reylo or Kylo’s fate, only hopes they’ll get a happy ending and no redemption by death for Kylo!

It's awesome to read everyone's predictions! We shall see who gets it right...

But the big question for me is: How many Reylo kisses we will get? lol.    I think there will be two. One in the middle of the movie maybe during a force bond connection (Passionate one)  and the other at the very end of the movie with our *fingers crossed* happy ending.  
I am even expecting a Reylo wedding in the end.  Maybe this is all wishful thinking, but hey is the last chapter in the trilogy.  JJ needs to go big or go home!

Another prediction or at least speculation topic, I read a quote somewhere about how the First Order is going to be unstoppable now with Kylo in charge and their military fleet which LOL WHUT?

1 - Kylo will probably get his s**t together after Crait and be a good tactician the way he was able to take out Snoke. But he's also got Hux to contend with and there's no more Snoke to keep the two of them from going after each other. It's going to start out a Cold War and then get hot and ugly. Especially once his dirty little secret about "thuh guuuurll" finally comes out.

2 - Both the Resistance and the First Order had serious loses on manpower and resources. Paige took out their Dreadnaught and the experienced Imperial Hand (Cap'n Canady deserved better) and then Holdo wiped out the Supremacy, which was their "mobile capital." So the First Order lost its equivalent to Hosnian Prime, plus two super powerful ships and a signicant # of the leadership/crew.

They still have the firepower shown on Crait, but that's what's left after suffering serious losses, plus a leader who was a firewall between two subordinates who'll likely burn the entire operation down battling for dominance.

Given that scenario, I've been wondering if they'll pick up the "There's always somebody higher up/everybody has a boss" theme from Solo because there were some pretty blatant parallels between Q'ira's rise in Crimson Dawn with Ben becoming Supreme Leader. You'd guess part of Han's "using you for your power, when they get what they want, they'll destroy you" warning that Ben took to heart has something to do with Q'ira's ultimate fate (which likely wasn't pleasant). So one of my IX question is will there be "there's always somebody higher up" waiting for Supreme Leader Kylo Ren now that Snoke is out of the way.

Ok I go with my list of prefictions/expectations:

- Kylo will probably show a very evil face in the beginning of the movie, being the new Supreme Leader and all. He will probably want to show his subordinates (especially Hux) how determinate and powerful he is. He will probably chase tjhe Resistance everywhere and still be in the same nihilistic vibe he was at the end of TLJ. I agree he will be probably more collected though. He may have his mask all repaired, like several leaks predicted. The mask prevents the others from seeing how he really feels, and to scare them too. The broken mask will be the symbol of his broken evil persona though: his mask (the symbolic one, the evil figure he wants to show) will soon fall down again  

- Hux will keep fulminate about Kylo being his new boss, and will think of a way to betray him. At some poin he will think again about Snoke's death and will suspect that Kylo has an input in it. Maybe Hux will think again of Finn and how the hell did Kylo know which Stormtrooper had betrayed the FO? I remember Hux looked surprised when Kylo guessed who had helped Poe to escape. Hux could even imagine that Kylo is in fact a traitor himself, and share his griefs with the KoR if they are around. This, with a potential Stormptroopers rebellion, will inevitably weaken the FO as well as Kylo's position.

- The Resistance will find out about Rey's force bond with Kylo, they will treat her bad and may even lead her to the Dark Side (not permanently though, we don't want to traumatize the little girls who want to be her since TFA).

- I doubt it will happen, but a former apprentice of Snoke could show up at the FO's backing door. It would provide a new big bad, which role wouldn't weight only on Kylo's shoulders (since fans often think that Kylo can't come back to the light because there would be no big bad left). I personnally consider than the FO in itself is a good "big bad", but it can make some fans happy...

- Starkiller 2?? Urg no, JJ won't dare...

- there will be a duel Kylo/Rey pretty soon in the movie. I mean, it's inevitable, right? it will be violent and sexy, but this time no earthquake or Holdo ramming will prevent them from killing each other. One of them will dominate the other but won't feel able to kill her/him. I place my bet on Kylo, for Rey beat him twice in TFA (in the duel but also in the interrogation scene, when Rey saw better in his mind than he did in hers); Kylo  needs to be given some credit... He might wear his mask on to fight her first, but she will ask him to remove his mask before he kills her, so he looks her in the eyes when he does it. But well, he will spare Rey's life of course. I can even dream that we will see a kiss coming, but some Stormtroopers will oblige Rey to run away before it can happen. This could easily be the first step of Kylo's big change. Rey will understand that Ben isn't completely lost yet.

- I honestly don't think we should expect a Reylo kiss until Kylo turns to the Light. JJ Abrams will play it safe on this one.

- There will probably have a couple of Skype force scenes after Kylo and Rey's first meeting (wether it's a duel or not), but it won't take much time in the movie because there has waaaaayyy too many other things to deal with. Bird names may fly before they can get understand each other again.

- Rey will be tempted by the Dark Side, probably around the 3rd part of the film. I mean she just can't stay immune to it while she tapped into it in TFA and TLJ, right? All SW heroes must have their DS moment, so Rey will have hers. I can't think of a reason now, but I trust Abrams to find a good one. Kylo could convince her to come back to the Light with words such as "I know how the DS is, you will be miserable like I am, etc."; it could even be the perfect occasion for him to apologize for his horrible marriage proposal, and tell her how wonderful she is... So against all odds it would Ben who would save Rey from the DS, and not the other way round.

- I know there's a strong leak that Hux is going to be a prisoner of the Resistance, but I just don't see the point of it. For sure, Kylo is not going to pay for his life   Well, I guess that it's the way for Kylo to be left alone with his power and to take big decisions without anyone else's influence, it can be interesting though. I'm sure since the end of VIII that Kylo's downfall as a SL will be his unability to take dreadful decisions because of his inherently good heart (such as the destruction of the Hosnian system). But then, it will exclude the presence of another big bad. Not that it would bother me....

- There will be a rebellion among the Stormtroopers, partly thanks to Finn. My issue is that he spent the firs two episodes shooting his former mates without any remorse, so he will certainly not be accepted quickly as a rebellion leader. That's why I think the feeling of rebellion will grow without Finn's influence first, probably because they won't trust their commandment anymore after Snoke's death. Any form this rebellion takes, it will contribute to weakend the FO and Kylo's position as a SL, which is all good!

- I think Kylo's redemption arc will really start only in the 3rd part, especially if he's the only big bad in the movie. Obtaining redemption and Rey's heart won't be an easy task I'm afraid. He will have to do more than just "Oh I'm sorry guys, can't we just start all over and be friends?". He will contribute actively to the destruction of the FO, may order his not rebelled Stormtroopers to stop fighting... If the KoR are around, or at least a couple of them, he may have to face them alone.

- At some point we may think that Kylo is dead, but Rey will save him. Probably not with a kiss and a "I love you" like in The Beauty and the Beast, but we can dreeam can't we?

- Speaking of that, I think some major revelations will be made at some point about Rey and Kylo's bond. Rey will turn out to be his sister or his cousin. Erm, no. But I'm sure they will be revealed to be predestined to each other, like soul mates or something. They're Yin and Yang, they complete each other and have to be united to bring Balance to the Force, or something big like that. Their relationship goes way beyong the scenario "good girl falls for bad boy", I'm pretty sure of that. Besides, it would give her a real motivation for helping the Resistance and becoming a Jedi, because frankly so far I don't see why she would take that role.

- Lando and his daughter won't come only to help the Resistance... Lando certainly knew Ben as a kind and thus may have an influence on his redemption arc...

- Edit: how could I forget the end? I could really see Kylo feeling very guilty for his bad action and not worth of forgiveness or Rey's love, so he'll want to leave on self exile somewhere. To be totally honest with you, I'm not sure that JJ Abrams will want an happy ending because he usually doesn't like his villains to have one (I even think we'll get lucky if Ben doesn't die...). But personnally I think we had enough of sad SW endings with ROTS, so I want an happy ending. Wishful thinking: ghost Luke or Lando will convince Ben that his decision is stupid and that he should stay; or Ben will leave for an unknown destination, but Rey will find out where he is thanks to her intuition, and will join him there   She will then come back with her mates to do what she has to do (become a Jedi Master, train new Jedi etc...), but Ben will never be far away from her.

- Last edit I think: since it was revealed that John William's "Rey Theme" somehow corrected "Ren's theme", I predict that JW will come up with a beautiful "Rey and Ren theme" that will beautifully blend their themes together..

I think it's about all I have  




-

Two things I want to see:
Hux and the FO finding out that Kylo killed Snoke
The Resistance - especially Poe - finding out that Rey had/has a Force bond with the new Supreme Leader!

The Porg doo doo will not a couple fans, methinks!

At the moment I don't have many predictions or clear ideas in mind (maybe it's also because I don't want to have too many expectations and to be disappointed at the end), I don't even care about what will happen as long as they give me a nice original ending.

The only things I would like to see or let's say I demand are   :

- Ben piloting the MF, I need it!
- Bendemption but I don't want that his evolution depends only on Rey
- and obviously REYLO, possibly tons of beautiful scenes

Hey all what do you think of this - do you think this is a possible fate for kylo and that Disney have been playing us all along ? This makes a convincing argument I have to say and makes me think back to something JJ Abrams said in commentary of force awakens ie that this wasn’t only the hero’s journey as a champion of the light but the villain’s descent into the dark.
From the documentary titled 'Secrets of The Force Awakens: A Cinematic Journey' on the Bluray: "This was not just 'The Force Awakens' in a young woman," the documentary reveals. "It's the dark side of The Force awakening in the villain.”
Have we got this wrong and kylo is headed towards the dark after all - Rey and his mother remain obstacles to his full descent at the moment but who knows where that will lead us . The author of this suggests that what we are getting will be rise of a hero ( rey ) and fall of a villain ( kylo ) and that there will be no redemption but that kylo will live and become a champion of the dark :

https://www.reddit.com/r/starwarsspeculation/comments/b0oytk/kylo_rens_fate_in_episode_ix/

The essay is inside the link

Edited to get JJ Abrams quote right

Really hope they are wrong, because it's not only dull and predictable, but utterly depressing.

Back in my 20s, I had two favourite authors, but although they wrote wonderful novels, their endings were so downbeat they made me suicidal! I had to stop reading them for the sake of my sanity.

@Motherofpearl1
To be honest I feel the same as you about this however am starting to think they may be holding back trailer , title etc because they know it will alienate a huge part of the Star Wars community . I always assumed it would be the non reylos but now am not so sure and jj Abrams can say “ I told you so from the beginning that this was the villain’s descent as well as hero’s rise “ we just got seduced by the dark side of the force and rooted for kylo because of who he was and his legacy and pain .

Also those leaks we heard recently which are probably crack I know that talked about Kylo feeling rey was his weakness made me think of Darth Malgus in the old republic and how he felt the same about Eleena and loved her but he too thought she was his weakness and stopping him from going full on dark - and how does he deal with it ? He kills her and this seals his fate into going on full on dark because his continual pain of having lost her feeds the dark side permanently. I really hope this isn’t Rey’s fate and why she was crying when she was told her fate but am going to be prepared for this just in case . Malgus and Eleena have a full on relationship in every sense of the word but her fate is tragic .
It will be interesting to see what we get next month in celebration and whether it gives hints of direction they are going to go - reylo or bendemption because I have a feeling they aren’t going to market both.

I haven't read the essay yet, but isn't shadowcouncil very biased towards Finnrey, Rey Skywalker and evil-Kylo? I think I read other essays from them that sounded to me like they didn't get the ST that well.

That being said, I really hope they are not letting Kylo descend into the dark in IX. I remember a quote from after TFA from JJ or someone else that Kylo wasn't a fully formed villain yet, but conflicted, and that we still had to see his descend into darkness. But if they had wanted to go that way, they should have done that in TLJ and made him more evil than in TFA. Instead TLJ showed us that Kylo is still as conflicted as before, that killing Han didn't make him darker, and they even made Kylo more likeable. I think it would be pretty mean if they first give us the middle film with the hope that Kylo can be redeemed, and then turned Kylo into the big bad in IX and tell us that all our hopes were in vain. IMO Star Wars is about hope - even the unlikely hope that someone who has completely fallen to the dark side, like Vader, can still be brought back to the light. If they are giving us false hope on purpose just to tell us in the end that we were wrong, I would be very disappointed.

AhsokaTano wrote:@Motherofpearl1
To be honest I feel the same as you about this however am starting to think they may be holding back trailer , title etc because they know it will alienate a huge part of the Star Wars community . I always assumed it would be the non reylos but now am not so sure and jj Abrams can say “ I told you so from the beginning that this was the villain’s descent as well as hero’s rise “ we just got seduced by the dark side of the force and rooted for kylo because of who he was and his legacy and pain .

Also those leaks we heard recently which are probably crack I know that talked about Kylo feeling rey was his weakness made me think of Darth Malgus in the old republic and how he felt the same about Eleena and loved her but he too thought she was his weakness and stopping him from going full on dark - and how does he deal with it ? He kills her and this seals his fate into going on full on dark because his continual pain of having lost her feeds the dark side permanently.  I really hope this isn’t Rey’s fate and why she was crying when she was told her fate but am going to be prepared for this just in case . Malgus and Eleena have a full on relationship in every sense of the word but her fate is tragic .
It will be interesting to see what we get next month in celebration and whether it gives hints of direction they are going to go -  reylo or bendemption because I have a feeling they aren’t going to market both.

@AhsokaTano

Oh come on guys, don’t get me worried. How can they end the last chapter of the sequel trilogy with Kylo just falling as a villain and dying in the dark side? Pls dont forget he is the only son of Han and Leia and I believe will save the whole galaxy. Ben Solo will come back to become along with Rey the heroes of the story.

@Forsythia
There is a way it could work (ie kylo’s descent into darkness) but it would be really really tragic - ie if there really is some other evil in the beyond as there seems to be hints at in the books and some of the “ leaks “ and that kylo has no choice but to go fully dark to fight a greater evil . That’s the only possibility that would get a lot of people on board ( and not just those rooting for another Vader )but in order to seal his descent Rey or his mother would have to be the sacrifice( to give him permanent pain to tap into the dark ) and that would be awful .

@tukicarreno
Sorry
I don’t want this either - just trying to think of all possibilities they may spring on us .., roll on celebration and give us a sense of direction that is positive where this could go .

It is a weak essay, argumentation is unclear and going all over the place. I've never read a good quality essay from an anti-position (and this one is clearly anti, sharing their trademark of repeating strong words such as "remorselessly", "brutal", "servant of evil", "implacable and relentless", "big bad", "major problem" etc., as if use of these words would somehow make the analysis more sophisticated. It does not.).

What kind of story starts and ends on the same place? The first impression we had from kylo was that he was pure evil, the dark warrior etc. then we have him killing Han at the end of TFA ( I think that’s what jj was talking about when he says full descent). Tlj does humanize him but not to the point where it would be really shocking to the GA to see him doing evil things in IX. Kylo killed his father in movie one and destroyed the resistance in movie two. They showed him at his worst, there’s no point in saying he “fall more”. I

It’s like rian Johnson said, if we cracked open the villain just to say that he is indeed evil then this trilogy really went nowhere.

Technically lots of stories and end in the same place; but only physically/metaphorically for the express purpose of showing how much the characters have changed from their starting point. Disney had practically made a science of it;

Ex. In Finding Nemo after the prologue the story begins at Marlin's home where he's terrified of letting Nemo go out into the world. It ends at Marlin's home with Marlin happy to have son going out into the world. Wreck-It Ralph begins with him getting thrown off the roof and being miserable and it ends with him getting thrown off the roof, but is happy because he's found meaning in his life now. Frozen begins and ends with skating in the castle and, in terms of the main plot, begins with Elsa fearfully opening up the gates for a party and ends with her announcement they're never closing the gates again as they kick off a party in the castle.

Placing the characters in the same basic environment at the end as they started is a classic way of showing rather than telling us of the progress the characters have made over the course of the story.

So for example; let's say the big twist of Episode IX is that the First Order ISN'T destroyed and in fact still rules the galaxy (or the warmongers behind the First Order take direct control - regardless the wars aren't actually over); but the change is that Ben Solo is redeemed and the Resistance now stands a real chance of victory now that Ben and Rey are fighting in unison. You close the film with stormtrooper dropships descending on a civilian village; just as TFA started... only this time Ben and Rey are there to stop them, Ben even freezing the stormtrooper blaster bolts in the air to keep the civilians from getting hit and driving them back into full retreat as Poe's X-Wings and Chewie and Finn in the Falcon take out their Star Destroyer and maybe something about how the Skywalker legacy may have ended, but the legacy of the Solos is just beginning.

My hunch is they're going to go for a full on "end of Episode I, IV and VI to bookend the trilogy of trilogies" for the ending, but as an example of how you can use a return to the same place you end in a positive way... well, there it is.

I agree, having Rey start as a good guy and Kylo a bad guy only to have them end in the exact same place makes no sense. Why spend multiple movies giving them a supernatural connection, demonstrating they are equally powerful, and getting to know and even defend each other if it leads nowhere? There's really no forward motion or character development. Like they just aimlessly waffled around for several movies.

And all the themes and messages of SW just get thrown under the bus. Nihilism isn't in SW's or Disney's wheelhouse. JJ's also said he doesn't do depressing stories.

I wouldn't worry about a franchise meant for 12-year-olds where love and hope save the day having a dark and nihilistic ending.

Forsythia wrote:I haven't read the essay yet, but isn't shadowcouncil very biased towards Finnrey, Rey Skywalker and evil-Kylo? I think I read other essays from them that sounded to me like they didn't get the ST that well.

That being said, I really hope they are not letting Kylo descend into the dark in IX. I remember a quote from after TFA from JJ or someone else that Kylo wasn't a fully formed villain yet, but conflicted, and that we still had to see his descend into darkness. But if they had wanted to go that way, they should have done that in TLJ and made him more evil than in TFA. Instead TLJ showed us that Kylo is still as conflicted as before, that killing Han didn't make him darker, and they even made Kylo more likeable. I think it would be pretty mean if they first give us the middle film with the hope that Kylo can be redeemed, and then turned Kylo into the big bad in IX and tell us that all our hopes were in vain. IMO Star Wars is about hope - even the unlikely hope that someone who has completely fallen to the dark side, like Vader, can still be brought back to the light. If they are giving us false hope on purpose just to tell us in the end that we were wrong, I would be very disappointed.

@Forsythia

Yes, in my experience, this is not a source you want to give an ear to unless you are predisposed to lapping up anything that will denigrate Ben Solo and Reylo.

The awakening of a villain does not necessarily mean that he becomes more villainous, does it? It seems to me that the narrative we've been getting is that the Dark Side "awoke" in Ben with Snoke when Ben was young, but something else awakened in TFA and changed the status quo somehow... Hmm, wonder what who that could be.

I think we all can trust what we've seen with our own eyes in TFA and TLJ and where the story seems to be leading.

I'm very sorry. But why we need to discuss SCouncil's essays here? They created dissertations on "How the movie itself (TLJ) knows that Rey is Luke's baby gurl" and how RJ and Kathy decided to make laugh of Reylos so that's why there are "jokes" about sex as hand touch. If there is something closer to delusion than this, I don't know what it could be.  

SCouncil believes that there will be EPX (cuz of course you need all time in the world to make Rey Luke's baby gurl) so they start building their theories from preferred outcome, not from confirmed interpretations. And I'm saying this as someone who can imagine how LFL can leave Kylo as antihero or even villain.

Is it possible for Kylo to remain in status of antagonist? Yes, it is.

Will be Kylo portrayed as "big bad", "psychopath" and "remorselessly evil"? It won't happen. Never.

special_cases wrote:I'm very sorry. But why we need to discuss SCouncil's essays here? They created dissertations on "How the movie itself (TLJ) knows that Rey is Luke's baby gurl" and how RJ and Kathy decided to make laugh of Reylos so that's why there are "jokes" about sex as hand touch. If there is something closer to delusion than this, I don't what it could be.

SCouncil believes that there will be EPX (cuz of course you need all time in the world to make Rey Luke's baby gurl) so they start building their theories from preferred outcome, not from confirmed interpretations. And I'm saying this as someone who can imagine how LFL can leave Kylo as antihero or even villain.

Is it possible for Kylo to remain in status of antagonist? Yes, it is.

Will be Kylo portrayed as "big bad", "psychopath" and "remorselessly evil"? It won't happen. Never.

@special_cases

Case closed. Totally agree.

I think this is another case of people believing that dark, depressing, nihilistic, tragic, and "edgy" endings are better than happy or even bittersweet endings. The villain becoming more villainous and staying evil is somehow more revolutionary and "deeper" than the villain redeeming himself because reality is grim, bleak, and hopeless, and people never change and so on and so forth....

There's a place for dark and tragic endings, but I doubt the sequel trilogy is it. I can see Kylo dying, but I can't see him ending this story evil to the core. It's not only a depressing ending for Kylo, but for Han, Luke, and Leia as well.

It's also a boring direction for Rey's character; she'll be another average beacon of light heroine forced to defeat or kill the irredeemable villain. Her connection and conflict with Kylo will be simplified.

It's strangely amusing how some people seriously believe "the villain doesn't get redeemed" is somehow more hard-hitting or meaningful when it happens the majority of the time and is easily accepted. Redemption stories are not as common or as beloved as some SW fans believe.

If there are three things that bring me hope is these:
Apparently Adam said in an interview that Rey and Kylo are very alike in that neither were completely bad, or completely good. It's what makes the dynamic so powerful, and according to critics the best part of the ST.
Daisy herself said she 'doesn't think' Rey is going to end up a Jedi
Both JJ and Oscar declaring this is the end of the Skywalker' saga. If this means Kylo dies....why give the game away?

And another thing....remember how the promos for TFA repeatedly hinted Finn was a Jedi, yet it turned out to be Rey?
At the end of TLJ, Luke tells Kylo 'he will not be the last Jedi?' Then it switches to Rey. But what if, like Jedi Finn, it's once again a MacGuffin.
What if it turns out that 'the last Jedi' .....is really Kylo?

@motherofpearl1,
I have always thought that Kylo would be the last jedi.

It would be a nod to RotJ, where the 'Jedi' was Darth Vader AKA Anakin.