Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors

As far as JW leaks + conjecture

Ochi, Jannah, Lando, Rey, Rey's Parents...

How that all connects is convoluted.. ...

spacebaby45678 wrote:As far as JW leaks + conjecture

Ochi, Jannah, Lando, Rey, Rey's Parents...

How that all connects is convoluted.. ...

@spacebaby45678

At the end of the day. I know it can be seen as a random totally meaningless thing with no actual thought behind (I highly, highly doubt this considering basic marketing strategy especially for cash cows such as SW) but at the end of the day. The poster/book cover etc is telling you what the heart of the saga/this film is is and its not Rey Palpatine.

The embodiment of this saga/film is is Rey and Kylo fighting for the freedom of the Skywalkers and the millennium falcon (aka Ben Solo) atop of Obi Wan Kenobi's tractor beam column. His actions atop this beam is what originally allowed the Skywalkers and the millennium falcon (now representative of Ben Solo) to be free of the dark side.

That's an incredibly random and strange thing to add to the main poster right from the earliest days right up until the very last and final poster/novel cover etc. I don't think this heart of the saga/episode has ever changed even from the first days of TRoS production

Gemini wrote:This is also something which Daisy said:

“The core of the whole thing is challenging your identity and what it is that makes you you. The things that people have bestowed upon a certain person is challenging what other people are telling you you are.”

I guess what Im taking from the above answer is that people are telling Rey she is a person she is not. We know Kylo tells her Random and Palpatine tells her Palpatine.

What is bestowed on her is the opposite? Bestowed is supposed to be something positive/an honor to a person..so whatever people keep telling her is a challenge to whatever was positively  bestowed upon her?

Her place and belonging is something, IMO as a hero of this saga, she needs to discover and see for herself through a vision IMO, not be told by any other character. Kylo will hopefully give her this key to see.

In terms of what was bestowed on her. Leia sees her as hope for the galaxy?

@Gemini
I think you might be reading into it a little too literally. What Daisy is saying is that personal identity/who you truly want to be is separate from your legacy and what others bestow upon you. This is a theme that is hugely relevant to both Rey and Ben in how they confront the burdens of how they experienced life. Rey will be dealing with a whole separate issue that directly parallels Ben's situation in having a heavy lineage instructing that she should be something she isn't, re: dark side with her grandfather. It ties into Adam's Rolling Stone interview in which he discusses Kylo's evolution: "To be your own person, at a certain point you have to claim it.”

@nickandnora  I don’t remember anyone leaking Jannah has a missing brother. JP’s info lined up with this, that Lando’s daughter was kidnapped while he was on the mission with Luke to find Ochi and he’s stayed on Pasaana ever since. But he didn’t seem to have any info that I remember on a reunion or reveal for those two. If he and MSW are right, there has to be a reveal to the characters. Otherwise what’s the point? Pretty lousy ending for Lando if he never finds out. From re-reading the dreck that is JP’s leaks, it seems like he says Kylo is antagonizing her to no end (which I think is a gross mischaracterization of Kylo’s actions yet again, at best), then tells Rey about Ochi murdering the parents, then she steals the dagger back from his ship (Chewie had it when the FO captured him) and that’s when she gets the vision of the murder. whereas MSW skips right to the dagger vision part. In JP’s novel of leaks (ha), Kylo tells her she’s a Palpatine when he’s back physically on the ship, right before she escapes to jump to the Falcon, whereas MSW I don’t think specified.

I can get behind the idea too of her own dark side struggle and heritage allowing her a greater understanding of how Kylo could fall. But admittedly his ultimate fate is the hang up for me. I just don’t see the point or value in any of this if he dies. Adam’s interview comments about his last scene make me think Ben lives (due to the dialogue aspect), but maybe I’m reading in to that too much and/or wishcasting.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

Gemini wrote:This is also something which Daisy said:

“The core of the whole thing is challenging your identity and what it is that makes you you. The things that people have bestowed upon a certain person is challenging what other people are telling you you are.”

I guess what Im taking from the above answer is that people are telling Rey she is a person she is not. We know Kylo tells her Random and Palpatine tells her Palpatine.

What is bestowed on her is the opposite? Bestowed is supposed to be something positive/an honor to a person..so whatever people keep telling her is a challenge to whatever was positively  bestowed upon her?

Her place and belonging is something, IMO as a hero of this saga, she needs to discover and see for herself through a vision IMO, not be told by any other character. Kylo will hopefully give her this key to see.

In terms of what was bestowed on her. Leia sees her as hope for the galaxy?

@Gemini
I think you might be reading into a it a little too literally. What Daisy is saying is that personal identity/who you truly want to be is separate from your legacy and what others bestow upon you. This is a theme that is hugely relevant to both Rey and Ben in how they confront the burdens of how they experienced life. Rey will be dealing with a whole separate issue that directly parallels Ben's situation in having a heavy lineage instructing that she should be something she isn't, re: dark side with her grandfather. It ties into Adam's Rolling Stone interview in which he discusses Kylo's evolution: "To be your own person, at a certain point you have to claim it.”

@FrolickingFizzgig

Possibly.

I know that Leia bestowed hope on her and she is supposed to be the hero/only hope of the galaxy. I also remember, was it Adam saying that this generation have received burdens from those before? Was that him?

I still stand by Rey needing to be the one to discover who she is and have people stop telling her. Words are words. The audience needs to see what happened. Rey needs to see what happened.

Gemini wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

Gemini wrote:This is also something which Daisy said:

“The core of the whole thing is challenging your identity and what it is that makes you you. The things that people have bestowed upon a certain person is challenging what other people are telling you you are.”

I guess what Im taking from the above answer is that people are telling Rey she is a person she is not. We know Kylo tells her Random and Palpatine tells her Palpatine.

What is bestowed on her is the opposite? Bestowed is supposed to be something positive/an honor to a person..so whatever people keep telling her is a challenge to whatever was positively  bestowed upon her?

Her place and belonging is something, IMO as a hero of this saga, she needs to discover and see for herself through a vision IMO, not be told by any other character. Kylo will hopefully give her this key to see.

In terms of what was bestowed on her. Leia sees her as hope for the galaxy?

@Gemini
I think you might be reading into a it a little too literally. What Daisy is saying is that personal identity/who you truly want to be is separate from your legacy and what others bestow upon you. This is a theme that is hugely relevant to both Rey and Ben in how they confront the burdens of how they experienced life. Rey will be dealing with a whole separate issue that directly parallels Ben's situation in having a heavy lineage instructing that she should be something she isn't, re: dark side with her grandfather. It ties into Adam's Rolling Stone interview in which he discusses Kylo's evolution: "To be your own person, at a certain point you have to claim it.”

@FrolickingFizzgig

Possibly.

I know that Leia bestowed hope on her and she is supposed to be the hero/only hope of the galaxy. I also remember, was it Adam saying that this generation have received burdens from those before? Was that him?

I still stand by Rey needing to be the one to discover who she is and have people stop telling her. Words are words. The audience needs to see what happened. Rey needs to see what happened.

@Gemini
I just don't see one of the core themes doing a 180 in the last 15 minutes of the last film. The answer has always been within Rey and Ben - they have to be who they want, they have to be their own people and own it. Being bestowed with any existing legacy is not an answer, it's a complication. "Be who you want to be" is a powerful message that applies to the entire trilogy and saga beautifully.

"Who am I? - You're whoever you want, only you can decide." The answer is within and must be accepted internally.

You know what, I’m gonna trust there’s no Rey Palpatine or other Somebody for now - Abrams keeps saying they honoured TLJ and all materials suggest they only expanded upon what had been done there but the article shared by @AcrosstheStars presents such a convoluted theory re Rey’s parents that I don’t see how Abrams wouldn’t consider it a retcon. It’s one thing to say Rey’s Nobody parents were really Palpatine’s descendants, who became drunk scavengers and dumped their kid on Jakku - thus pretty much following TLJ’s narrative - and another to get them murdered and have Rey taken care of and subsequently abandoned by the very killer of her own parents. There’s that question of Rey trying to understand her place in the universe and why she’s powerful but that’s actually related to her future rather than her past and while she needs closure, there’s no need to give her family an important lineage - and it was Abrams, who ditched midichlorians to avoid the scientific implications in favour of the spiritual aspects of the Force, so I don’t see why he’d like to give Rey a sense of purpose and explain her connection to the Force with genetics.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:I believe Rey Palpatine insofar that I believe Rey is a creation of Palaptine. I kind of like the biological aspect to it because it adds a nice dichotomy.

@FrolickingFizzgig
Do you mean something similar to Anakin’s conception? I’m not fond of it either as despite allowing a totally random Nobody woman to become Rey’s mother, it’s still a very exceptional way to come about and one of the things I appreciate about Rey’s character the most is her being a random Nobody.

Kylo Rey wrote:The biggest takeaway from TRoS: PALPATINE HAD SEX

@Kylo Rey

@FrolickingFizzgig

I understand that PoV . However the leaks are only half/not complete story. There is still Pryde, the KoR who's stories are pretty absent in these leaks. If I'm right. That u-turn ties in with that plotline and so it may not end up being such a u-turn in the end. There will be back up and build up to it if that saber kylo has was picked up with the KoR.

We will see.

nickandnora wrote:

AcrosstheStars wrote:@Gemini Rey being a clone of a hand was definitely one of the biggest “Huh?” moments for me since I started reading Star Wars forums in 2017. A wee bit below Sloth Anakin on the “What the heck?” scale. I don’t like the clone or Palpatine angle, but so it goes on the latter, if true. I won’t mind it if Ben lives. If he dies, I will very much dislike it.

Anyhow, MSW just posted a new article about Ochi, Rey’s parents, and Lando and Jannah. He says Lando tells them where Ochi’s ship is, and they head there to escape the FO, abandoning the Falcon at the Festival. She recognizes it as the ship she saw when she was abandoned. Ground caves in and they end up in the tunnel with that worm and a dead Ochi. When Rey gets the Sith dagger, she sees her parents being murdered in a tent on Jakku. Her father was Palpatine’s son, and Jason says he’s seen the actor and the man looks like Gendry from GOT and director Gareth Edwards. I have no clue who either of those people are. Mother is a brunette played by someone not seen before, and she’s not Zorii. Poe is fixing the ship to get away from the FO when Kylo shows up in his TIE from the trailer scene, so I guess Rey goes to stall him.

Says it looks to him that Jannah is Lando’s missing child. Apparently Lando left with Luke on a mission to find either Ochi to get the dagger or just to find the dagger, and the First Order kidnapped Jannah while he was gone. He stays on Pasaana and never leaves in the hopes she’ll come back for him. Ochi looks like a humanoid reptile crossed with a sponge, yellow skin and tiny black eyes (and may I just say: yuck   ). Little more stuff, like him backing up JP’s D-O origins leak, but those are the big points. He also repeatedly references the dyad, so he seems to think that’s still part of the movie, as opposed to JediPaxis.

https://makingstarwars.net/2019/11/examining-ochi-from-star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-the-skeleton-key-to-episode-ix-spoilers/

@AcrosstheStars

OK, aside from the fact that I really hate the idea of Jannah being Lando's daughter:
a) Isn't the story that Jannah's brother was taken away *from her*? Or am I imagining that part?
b) There is no resolution that I can see for this in the leaks (it's not like they acknowledge each other at any point, do they?) Also worth noting: Lando is absent in the rumoured end scene on Pasaana.

Really, I'm biased on this, but it strikes me as strange if Lando is not there to be the missing link between all the OT and Ben Solo. Because they can't use Carrie for this purpose, it makes sense to me that the connection that is important here is Lando and Ben. But the leaks literally say *nothing* about this, and instead we have this weird story about Lando losing his daughter. That's why I'm really not trusting that part completely until I see it (and indeed the way it's phrased it seems like Jason is making conjecture here).

As for all the Rey stuff, I personally love it. I feel like the point is going to be that Rey is going to experience first hand just HOW someone falls to the dark side, and guess what? It's not always because "they are evil and want to do bad things." It can be because they are afraid, and confused (like her) and lonely, and mistrusting, AND misunderstanding/lashing out at someone who is trying to help out of fear and anger. I speculated many pages back that I think the act of stabbing Kylo might cause her to see Kylo's past in more detail and perhaps seeing it (like for instance: yelling come back! to his parents, accidentally using his powers to blow things up and having people be afraid of him, coming face to face with his father, etc.) will make her realize: "We are the same."

@nickandnora

I'm not necessarily a fan of the idea that everybody should end up related i.e. Finn and Janna as Lando's long lost children. But Finn as long lost brother of Janna, why not?  After all, child trafficking was present all along in the narrative. One important thing that I take away from the franchise  is that they insist much about the idea of children being taken away from their families to be raised as good little soldiers in ideological fights through myths. That was already very present in the Prequels with the Jedi academy, with Anakin as focal point of the fight between the Siths and the Jedi. IMO, Oscar Isaac's description of the movie about discovering how the Jedi and the Sith were playing a long chessgame  is central to the movie. The idea that both the Resistance and the Firs Order have dirty hands was very present in TLJ, which was one of the strengths of that movie.

@Kylo Rey

@Armadeus

OMG I spat out my tea

nana7marie wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:I believe Rey Palpatine insofar that I believe Rey is a creation of Palaptine. I kind of like the biological aspect to it because it adds a nice dichotomy.

@FrolickingFizzgig
Do you mean something similar to Anakin’s conception? I’m not fond of it either as despite allowing a totally random Nobody woman to become Rey’s mother, it’s still a very exceptional way to come about and one of the things I appreciate about Rey’s character the most is her being a random Nobody.

@nana7marie

I was never against Rey being the daughter of someone important, to tell the true, JJ played a lot with this mystery box in TFA. But in TLJ, when we didn't have any other clue and with Rey admitting her parents are nobody (Kylo pushed her to tell it, but it was she who admitted it first) I embraced the idea that she could be a nobody. As the broomboy, in the end of the movie, he just had the Force, as lots of force sensitives in the prequels. I find beautiful the idea that everybody can be his own person. Here we have one person who have a brilliant legacy and failed x a force sensitive that's just a common person. The parallels are beautiful IMO.

Of course I have no power over the trilogy, maybe they really decide that Rey is connected to Palps or Obi-wan, but I'll always find this link abrupt and bad developed (since we didn't see any clue in TLJ - and I'm not telling about clues that only hard fans will see, a movie has to be more clear for GA as well).

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:(...) "Who am I? - You're whoever you want, only you can decide." The answer is within and must be accepted internally.

@FrolickingFizzgig

These two images... They're beautiful and really resonate one me.

I'm a little unsure of what has triggered the Rey Palpatine discussion. Was it Rey going nuts in the new clip, or Daisy's comment? Her remarks are fairly similar to other things she, JJ, and Terrio have all said before. The fact Daisy still doesn't care about the Rey's parents thing, and never did, is something. I've always been of the opinion the parents thing needed to be at least referenced in IX, since she didn't really have emotional closure of acceptance with that topic. It might be useful for people to see and hear her parents, give them names, maybe literally show them abandoning her and/or getting murdered or something.

Are we sure they're linking her parents to her force abilities? That's not what I got from this. Like @nana7marie said, JJ is the one who dumped midichlorians and the other scientific angles, goes on and on about how SW is fantasy and a fairy tale, and very unlike Trek. Many have long suspected that Rey and Kylo are some sort of yin-yang, Prime Jedi, physical embodiment of the force, what have you. And of course I hope they acknowledge her connection to Kylo since TFA, as a few people have in interviews since TLJ came out, that might also be a good explanation for people who really need it as well.

Rey Palps is still....eh, to me. I can get behind it if Palpatine was responsible for her birth one way or another, but her being his flesh and blood just feels...weird.

As for Rey striking at Kylo, honestly I see this as a good thing for us. If there's anything I'm seeing in these leaks, it's that Rey is finally getting a little on equal footing with Kylo. She's showing her darkness, attacking him out of anger when he appears unarmed, the whole thing with stabbing him while he's in shock from Leia's death, it all serves to level the playing field. To possibly build another level of understanding between the two; how easy it is to cross lines you thought you'd never cross.

This bodes much better for Reylo than pure above it all hero Rey. Plus, it's just a damn sight more interesting. Does it feel a little too last minute to me? Yeah, kind of. But I'm glad it's happening at all.

I sort of get the trepidation over it in the sense that there doesn't seem to be a lot of room left for blatantly romantic Reylo to develop, as in to the point of them ever kissing on screen, but for that all we can do is wait. Personally I've made my peace with the idea of not getting an on-screen kiss. My ideal is making it obvious that Rey and Kylo have feelings for each other, and that the last minutes of the movie make it clear that their story together is just beginning.

californiagirl wrote:I'm a little unsure of what has triggered the Rey Palpatine discussion. Was it Rey going nuts in the new clip, or Daisy's comment? Her remarks are fairly similar to other things she, JJ, and Terrio have all said before. The fact Daisy still doesn't care about the Rey's parents thing, and never did, is something. I've always been of the opinion the parents thing needed to be at least referenced in IX, since she didn't really have emotional closure of acceptance with that topic. It might be useful for people to see and hear her parents, give them names, maybe literally show them abandoning her and/or getting murdered or something.

Are we sure they're linking her parents to her force abilities? That's not what I got from this. Like @nana7marie said, JJ is the one who dumped midichlorians and the other scientific angles, goes on and on about how SW is fantasy and a fairy tale, and very unlike Trek. Many have long suspected that Rey and Kylo are some sort of yin-yang, Prime Jedi, physical embodiment of the force, what have you. And of course I hope they acknowledge her connection to Kylo since TFA, as a few people have in interviews since TLJ came out, that might also be a good explanation for people who really need it as well.

@californiagirl

californiagirl wrote:I'm a little unsure of what has triggered the Rey Palpatine discussion. Was it Rey going nuts in the new clip, or Daisy's comment? Her remarks are fairly similar to other things she, JJ, and Terrio have all said before. The fact Daisy still doesn't care about the Rey's parents thing, and never did, is something. I've always been of the opinion the parents thing needed to be at least referenced in IX, since she didn't really have emotional closure of acceptance with that topic. It might be useful for people to see and hear her parents, give them names, maybe literally show them abandoning her and/or getting murdered or something.

Are we sure they're linking her parents to her force abilities? That's not what I got from this. Like @nana7marie said, JJ is the one who dumped midichlorians and the other scientific angles, goes on and on about how SW is fantasy and a fairy tale, and very unlike Trek. Many have long suspected that Rey and Kylo are some sort of yin-yang, Prime Jedi, physical embodiment of the force, what have you. And of course I hope they acknowledge her connection to Kylo since TFA, as a few people have in interviews since TLJ came out, that might also be a good explanation for people who really need it as well.

@californiagirl

To be honest, all this discussion of Rey Nobody vs. Rey Important Lineage has made me hope she’s Rey Nobody. (And I used to be all in favor of Kenobi or Palpatine.). She’d be a grandchild of either of the two main possibilities, and explaining it all just gets very complicated, which is not how the Star Wars MOVIES roll (I understand that the novels and EU and comics are like that).

I don’t love the idea that everyone has to be related to Someone Important. I guess that’s why I’m OK with the Finn/Jannah theory— siblings are a lot closer than grandparents, there’s a very simple story explaining how they were separated and Finn has already told that story (taken from a family he’ll never know), and Jannah is not a major figure from the OT.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

Gemini wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

Gemini wrote:This is also something which Daisy said:

“The core of the whole thing is challenging your identity and what it is that makes you you. The things that people have bestowed upon a certain person is challenging what other people are telling you you are.”

I guess what Im taking from the above answer is that people are telling Rey she is a person she is not. We know Kylo tells her Random and Palpatine tells her Palpatine.

What is bestowed on her is the opposite? Bestowed is supposed to be something positive/an honor to a person..so whatever people keep telling her is a challenge to whatever was positively  bestowed upon her?

Her place and belonging is something, IMO as a hero of this saga, she needs to discover and see for herself through a vision IMO, not be told by any other character. Kylo will hopefully give her this key to see.

In terms of what was bestowed on her. Leia sees her as hope for the galaxy?

@Gemini
I think you might be reading into a it a little too literally. What Daisy is saying is that personal identity/who you truly want to be is separate from your legacy and what others bestow upon you. This is a theme that is hugely relevant to both Rey and Ben in how they confront the burdens of how they experienced life. Rey will be dealing with a whole separate issue that directly parallels Ben's situation in having a heavy lineage instructing that she should be something she isn't, re: dark side with her grandfather. It ties into Adam's Rolling Stone interview in which he discusses Kylo's evolution: "To be your own person, at a certain point you have to claim it.”

@FrolickingFizzgig

Possibly.

I know that Leia bestowed hope on her and she is supposed to be the hero/only hope of the galaxy. I also remember, was it Adam saying that this generation have received burdens from those before? Was that him?

I still stand by Rey needing to be the one to discover who she is and have people stop telling her. Words are words. The audience needs to see what happened. Rey needs to see what happened.

@Gemini
I just don't see one of the core themes doing a 180 in the last 15 minutes of the last film. The answer has always been within Rey and Ben - they have to be who they want, they have to be their own people and own it. Being bestowed with any existing legacy is not an answer, it's a complication. "Be who you want to be" is a powerful message that applies to the entire trilogy and saga beautifully.

"Who am I? - You're whoever you want, only you can decide." The answer is within and must be accepted internally.

@FrolickingFizzgig

Agree with you about the core idea, which is that building her own identity is more important than searching for her past identity. That has been the message sent to her - and the fandom - all along in four key moments of the movie.

1) Maz softly but clearly tried to make Rey ackowledge that  deep down she knows her parents were never ever coming back and that it was pointless to wait them on Jakku:

Maz: "Dear child. I see your eyes. You already know the truth. Whoever you're waiting for on Jakky, they're never coming back but there is someone who still could. The belonging you seek is not behind you, it is ahead"

2) As much as Kylo was rather brutal, he was also spilling her some truth even before touching hands with her, which is that she was abandoned by her parents, which she obviously refused to acknowledge

Kylo: "Your parents threw you like garbage"

Rey: "They didn't"

Kylo: "They did but you can't stop needing them. It's your greatest weakness, looking for them everywhere [...] Let the past die. Kill it if you have to. That's the only way to become who you're meant to be"

3) The mirror didn't show her her parents but two figures merging into one to form a shape too similar to Ben to be ignored.

One can still argue that it was a place surrounded by darkness but IMO the reason why it didn't show her anything except this shape is because she was obviously not ready to acknowledge the Truth or simply because she didn't ask the right question to the mirror. Whoever her parents are, it's her connection with Ben that is the most important for her own journey. It's also very similar to the mirror scene of Harry Potter where Dumbledore explains that the mirror shows "the deepest desires in our heart". For Rey, it's finding where she belongs, she simply haven't acknowledged yet that her deepest desire ain't about her past family. And Dumbledore's warning to Harry makes a lot of sense with her own narrative: "It does not do to dwell on dreams and forget to live". Isn't it what Rey did all the time on Jakku?

Given the similarity with the "He lives in you" scene from Lion King and the obvious Lion King vibe of TROS, I already pointed out the possibility that Anakin/Ben's light energy might live within Rey, which would be the reason why she has so many similarities with Kylo and a certain tendency to tap into the dark side:

It can also explains why she has so many similarities with the Skywalkers in general and why the GA got easily persuaded that she was a Skywalker by blood:


And here the musical connection between Emperor, Ren and Rey: three f****ing notes (Trinity?)


4) The infamous "revelation" scene in which Kylo spills her some truth once again but this time lets her tell her truth. The novelization stresses that his eyes didn"t lie when he told her that he saw her parents. So we know that he didn't trick but he might have got an uncomplete truth out of her mind. So the only possibility that remains is that her real parents indeed threw her like garbage to poor people and that Rey is some Space Cosette .  

Kylo: "You have no place in this story. You come from nothing. You're nothing but not to me"

Now, that the parents are not important to the story doesn't mean that her lineage isn't. My feeling tells me that regarding her character, it's the same kind of situation that the drama Scholar who walks in the night. The female lead was adopted and  is key to the story because it is revealed toward the end that she is a long lost descendant from the Villain and that the only way to defeat him for good is to sacrify her. However, in our case, sacrifice would rather apply to the Skywalkers since Anakin was tachnically created by Palpatine. But Rey can still be the long lost descendant of any lineage that matters to defeat Palpatine, most likely Kenobi. I don't expect any big revelation before the third act of the movie, which means before she has completed her journey to find out who she really is besides her parents.

Gemini wrote:@Kylo Rey

@Armadeus

OMG I spat out my tea

@Gemini

How do the leakers know all these things... didn't JJ just finish the movie 2 days ago???

The thing is that nothing was set in stone in TFA or TLJ when it comes to Rey's bloodline. Not thematically, not factually. When Rey says "They were nobodies" she is saying what she suspected for a long time and what would make sense all circumstances considered.

Rey : You don't have to do this. I feel the conflict in you. It's tearing you apart. Ben, when we touched hands, I saw your future. Just the shape of it but solid and clear. You will not bow before Snoke. You'll turn. I'll help you.

Kylo Ren : I saw something too. I know that when the time comes, you'll be the one to turn. You'll stand with me, Rey. I saw who your parents are.

If we go by the information in leaks, Rey's parents were running and left/hide Rey with Plutt. This could be the moment when Kylo "saw something too". He misinterpreted it and assumed the worst - that her parents just ditched her the way he was left with Luke and it ended very bad. That's why he is saying "I KNOW that you'll turn" because he with similar circumstances. Before turn perhaps he had hope that his parents will finally have time or attention for him and that their relationship will be warmer but Luke's betrayal and Snoke's manipulation built it to losing this hope and "accept" the truth. He used the sense of entitlement to create new persona Kylo Ren as heir to Vader and ditch Ben Solo. From his POV, Rey doesn't have this opportunity so he proposes to her as giving her opportunity to stick to something "important" and feel finally worthy aka stick to him and become a new ruler of the Galaxy. He just lost ability to understand that you can define yourself by other things.

All "revealing" dialogues and outcomes in TLJ were written purposefully vague (the same with TFA) and you can build different things on it. In early Force Bond scene Kylo hints that he already saw her parents in her mind and we know from TFA that he had perfect opportunity for this. So when they both are revealing the truth about her parents in Throne Room, they are revealing only what Rey believed to be true, more like feared for it to be true.

With Palpatine reveal, it will feel like that the truth was even worse than her fear. While parents cared for her, they were killed and she suffered on Jakku for 15 years just because of the bloodline. And while she feared that her parents are dead and she doesn't have a chance to find a sense of belonging, she hoped that there is something in their legacy or story that will make her feel worthy. When she will find that the answer for it is Palpatine's legacy and he is actually alive, it will make it much worse and confusing.

@Atenais
Yeah, I felt the same way. This is a really unique and fascinating approach to the concepts of lineage and destiny in epic fantasy. Stories with mythic influence and coming-of-age themes generally focus on how a character's lineage (heroic and legendary, usually) dictates who they're meant to be, like a lost prince reclaiming his rightful throne. This is a really appropriate subversion in which the burden of lineage is actually the thing preventing our heroes from achieving their full personal potential, re: we aren't what other people tell us we are, we are who we decide. The answer always has to come from within. It's really very meaningful.

@FrolickingFizzgig Right. Part of Anakin's fall came from the fact that there were tremendous expectations and pressure on his shoulders because he was seen as the Chosen One by the Jedi and the perfect apprentice for Palpatine. Same tragedy repeated with Ben whose biggest weakness is to follow the footsteps of his grandfather instead of his own.

Who knows maybe the point of the movie will be to demystify all of that. Either the Prophecy was uncomplete because it lacked a piece of the puzzle or we're gonna find out that it was a blatant lie invented by the Jedi to keep faith.

One the other hand, that wouldn't explain  through why Anakin was so strong in the Force, "slapping all of us in a pit of lava, including Kylo" according to John And given the strong Hamlet/Lion King vibe of the sequel trilogy, there is still this idea to (re)claim birthright/legacy.

I think TLJ left enough wiggle room to do the “nobodies from a certain POV” angle, but the son of Palpatine is still a somebody in my mind.  But I guess if his parentage wasn’t known, it fits better. I do think there is power in understanding each of us is our own person... we aren’t our ancestors, and we may not be as heroic or smart as they were, or as ruthless as they were. We have to choose our own path in life. In that respect, plus giving Reylo as a unit something meaningful to bond over (villainous grandfathers who worked together, struggles with the dark, great expectations and feeling like a failure, isolation due to lineage, etc.), it does work IMO. Not my favorite idea, but it works if he lives.

@californiagirl The Daisy article was part of it, but MSW released a new article this morning that goes in to her parents’ murder, her vision/Forceback of it, and details (i.e. her father is supposedly Palpatine’s son, an appearance description of the actor playing him, and a bare bones visual description of the actress playing her mother in flashback, etc.). I posted the link a page or two back if you want to read it.

@reylo1992

Dis Irae.. Days of Wrath is about the end times.. Revelation

it is a poem about the Apocalypse..

How it is used for both Rey & Kylo may be prophesying how they will both be there to kill the Great Satan

special_cases wrote:The thing is that nothing was set in stone in TFA or TLJ when it comes to Rey's bloodline. Not thematically, not factually. When Rey says "They were nobodies" she is saying what she suspected for a long time and what would make sense all circumstances considered.

Rey : You don't have to do this. I feel the conflict in you. It's tearing you apart. Ben, when we touched hands, I saw your future. Just the shape of it but solid and clear. You will not bow before Snoke. You'll turn. I'll help you.

Kylo Ren : I saw something too. I know that when the time comes, you'll be the one to turn. You'll stand with me, Rey. I saw who your parents are.

If we go by the information in leaks, Rey's parents were running and left/hide Rey with Plutt. This could be the moment when Kylo "saw something too". He misinterpreted it and assumed the worst - that her parents just ditched her the way he was left with Luke and it ended very bad. That's why he is saying "I KNOW that you'll turn" because he with similar circumstances. Before turn perhaps he had hope that his parents will finally have time or attention for him and that their relationship will be warmer but Luke's betrayal and Snoke's manipulation built it to losing this hope and "accept" the truth. He used the sense of entitlement to create new persona Kylo Ren as heir to Vader and ditch Ben Solo. From his POV, Rey doesn't have this opportunity so he proposes to her as giving her opportunity to stick to something "important" and feel finally worthy aka stick to him and become a new ruler of the Galaxy. He just lost ability to understand that you can define yourself by other things.

All "revealing" dialogues and outcomes in TLJ were written purposefully vague (the same with TFA) and you can build different things on it. In early Force Bond scene Kylo hints that he already saw her parents in her mind and we know from TFA that he had perfect opportunity for this. So when they both are revealing the truth about her parents in Throne Room, they are revealing only what Rey believed to be true, more like feared for it to be true.

With Palpatine reveal, it will feel like that the truth was even worse than her fear. While parents cared for her, they were killed and she suffered on Jakku for 15 years just because of the bloodline. And while she feared that her parents are dead and she doesn't have a chance to find a sense of belonging, she hoped that there is something in their legacy or story that will make her feel worthy. When she will find that the answer for it is Palpatine's legacy and he is actually alive, it will make it much worse and confusing.

@special_cases

Daisy confirmed in April 2016 that she knew who Rey's parents are, which she discovered while filming TFA. J.J. may haved added later a lineage but who her (real?) parents were was definitely set in stone from the beginning. I.e. they may have decided from the beginning that she was the child of FO parents without telling Daisy that it was sure one of them was related to Palpatine, Kenobi or any other important character:

spacebaby45678 wrote:@reylo1992

Dis Irae.. Days of Wrath is about the end times.. Revelation

it is a poem about the Apocalypse..

How it is used for both Rey & Kylo may be prophesying how they will both be there to kill the Great Satan

@spacebaby45678

That makes sense. Dies Irae was also used right when Ren stares at Rey in awe just after she grabbed Anakin's lightsaber. Ready to bet we will hear this melody again, i.e. when he shows up by her side. That could also be used for Kylo's fate, which is certainly the most important question - aside from Rey's identity - since the beginning:

After they gave *Voldemort* a child with the implication that he had sex, nothing would surprise me anymore. It’s also an easier way to create the link between Rey and Palpatine than some experiment.

But if we’re back to the lineage explanation to Rey’s force powers, that does negate a lot of TLJ ands its themes, even if story-wise it did leave wiggle room. Rey is not really Kylo’s light side counterpart like Snoke said, an obscure nobody picked by the force to contrast the blue-blooded son of legends, and you totally do have to be related to someone powerful. Yes Rey Palpatine lends its own themes, but it’s like every different director takes Rey’s story and fits it into whatever different direction they want for each movie, previous movie’s themes be damned.

reylo1992 wrote:

nickandnora wrote:

AcrosstheStars wrote:@Gemini Rey being a clone of a hand was definitely one of the biggest “Huh?” moments for me since I started reading Star Wars forums in 2017. A wee bit below Sloth Anakin on the “What the heck?” scale. I don’t like the clone or Palpatine angle, but so it goes on the latter, if true. I won’t mind it if Ben lives. If he dies, I will very much dislike it.

Anyhow, MSW just posted a new article about Ochi, Rey’s parents, and Lando and Jannah. He says Lando tells them where Ochi’s ship is, and they head there to escape the FO, abandoning the Falcon at the Festival. She recognizes it as the ship she saw when she was abandoned. Ground caves in and they end up in the tunnel with that worm and a dead Ochi. When Rey gets the Sith dagger, she sees her parents being murdered in a tent on Jakku. Her father was Palpatine’s son, and Jason says he’s seen the actor and the man looks like Gendry from GOT and director Gareth Edwards. I have no clue who either of those people are. Mother is a brunette played by someone not seen before, and she’s not Zorii. Poe is fixing the ship to get away from the FO when Kylo shows up in his TIE from the trailer scene, so I guess Rey goes to stall him.

Says it looks to him that Jannah is Lando’s missing child. Apparently Lando left with Luke on a mission to find either Ochi to get the dagger or just to find the dagger, and the First Order kidnapped Jannah while he was gone. He stays on Pasaana and never leaves in the hopes she’ll come back for him. Ochi looks like a humanoid reptile crossed with a sponge, yellow skin and tiny black eyes (and may I just say: yuck   ). Little more stuff, like him backing up JP’s D-O origins leak, but those are the big points. He also repeatedly references the dyad, so he seems to think that’s still part of the movie, as opposed to JediPaxis.

https://makingstarwars.net/2019/11/examining-ochi-from-star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-the-skeleton-key-to-episode-ix-spoilers/

@AcrosstheStars

OK, aside from the fact that I really hate the idea of Jannah being Lando's daughter:
a) Isn't the story that Jannah's brother was taken away *from her*? Or am I imagining that part?
b) There is no resolution that I can see for this in the leaks (it's not like they acknowledge each other at any point, do they?) Also worth noting: Lando is absent in the rumoured end scene on Pasaana.

Really, I'm biased on this, but it strikes me as strange if Lando is not there to be the missing link between all the OT and Ben Solo. Because they can't use Carrie for this purpose, it makes sense to me that the connection that is important here is Lando and Ben. But the leaks literally say *nothing* about this, and instead we have this weird story about Lando losing his daughter. That's why I'm really not trusting that part completely until I see it (and indeed the way it's phrased it seems like Jason is making conjecture here).

As for all the Rey stuff, I personally love it. I feel like the point is going to be that Rey is going to experience first hand just HOW someone falls to the dark side, and guess what? It's not always because "they are evil and want to do bad things." It can be because they are afraid, and confused (like her) and lonely, and mistrusting, AND misunderstanding/lashing out at someone who is trying to help out of fear and anger. I speculated many pages back that I think the act of stabbing Kylo might cause her to see Kylo's past in more detail and perhaps seeing it (like for instance: yelling come back! to his parents, accidentally using his powers to blow things up and having people be afraid of him, coming face to face with his father, etc.) will make her realize: "We are the same."

@nickandnora

I'm not necessarily a fan of the idea that everybody should end up related i.e. Finn and Janna as Lando's long lost children. But Finn as long lost brother of Janna, why not?  After all, child trafficking was present all along in the narrative. One important thing that I take away from the franchise  is that they insist much about the idea of children being taken away from their families to be raised as good little soldiers in ideological fights through myths. That was already very present in the Prequels with the Jedi academy, with Anakin as focal point of the fight between the Siths and the Jedi. IMO, Oscar Isaac's description of the movie about discovering how the Jedi and the Sith were playing a long chessgame  is central to the movie. The idea that both the Resistance and the Firs Order have dirty hands was very present in TLJ, which was one of the strengths of that movie.

@reylo1992

Yeah I like the idea of Finn and Janna as siblings because Finn is a main character. It makes sense to introduce someone new and have them potentially be connected (though I also like the idea that it might never be confirmed, maybe it's just a feeling Finn has that he talks about). But the leaks seem to highlight Lando and Janna as the ones having the connection, though to be honest right now it seems the connection is simply being made by the source/leakers but it's not evident in the film (to be fair, if Lando does in fact have exposition to the fact that he lost his daughter then I understand why the connections is being made). I don't like that because they are BOTH minor characters introduced in the last film for the "first" time. Why do I care how they are connected? What's the point? What's the resolution? The thing is, I can see them giving Lando this backstory to explain why maybe he's in a low place, or why he would end up joining in the fight. But it's not because he necessarily has to *find* his lost daughter. This part is one of the more unsatisfying, bizarre parts to me.