Official TROS Spoilers discussion

I think it's sad. I'd say there is a general feeling of emptiness, and that's why many people want to believe in better options..or answers. This Reddit "JJ cut" leak is feeding this need. I don't blame them.

But after all the mess, criticism, disappointment, I wonder if they will consider to improve (edition, some fx) and add cutscenes. I don't expect a miracle though.

There's a petition to bring back Ben. I've signed it.
It probably won't make a difference, but I really want them to do thiis.
I don't even care if it's Rey he ends up with, as long as he's alive and finds someone to love.

The extended cut could probably improve the pacing of the film somewhat since it’s obvious that the movie was edited down to the bone. But I doubt that it would improve the story much. And while studio interference is a real thing that can sometimes wreck movies, frankly TRoS seems to have all of the usual JJ weaknesses as a storyteller that can be seen in every single film he’s done.

@SW_Heroine_Journey The mod I know who's a very kind person has responded to her in the past claiming some of the more popular fan theories were her idea first that just because something is popular/universal means a lot of people have the same reaction to it. And she also claimed to be one of the instigators of the Reddit fundraiser, like if something gets attention she's usually not far behind in claiming to be at the center of it.

snufkin wrote:@SW_Heroine_Journey The mod I know who's a very kind person has responded to her in the past claiming some of the more popular fan theories were her idea first that just because something is popular/universal means a lot of people have the same reaction to it. And she also claimed to be one of the instigators of the Reddit fundraiser, like if something gets attention she's usually not far behind in claiming to be at the center of it.

@snufkin

I love how everyone is on to her, and either amuses her/tolerates her with eyeroll/patient-type tweet replies, or completely ignore her. lol

lauvamp wrote:I think it's sad. I'd say there are a general feeling of emptiness, and that's why many people want to believe in better options..or answers. This Reddit "JJ cut" leak is feeding this need. I don't blame them.

But after all the mess, criticism, disappointment, I wonder if they will consider to improve (edition, some fx) and add cutscenes. I don't expect a miracle though.

@lauvamp

Yeah, the need to rationalize the film and hope for a better outcome (which also happened with other Terrio films, btw) is a natural response from our brains to find logic where there is none. While not everyone has a deep knowledge of storytelling and filmmaking, we're all used to narratives of all kinds. Books, movies, theater, TV shows... we kind of instinctively know how certain things play out because we've consumed all kinds of stories during our lives. The problem with TRoS is that the narrative is illogical, the subtext doesn't match the text, and the film doesn't offer any sort of catharsis for fans who are invested in the franchise, be it Reylos, dudebros, antis, lore enthusiasts. It feels like there's something missing, and fans try to understand why.

Unfortunately in this case I'm afraid there's no big conspiracy. It's just a case of disrespect for the previous canon material, excessive interference from Disney suits who don't know s*** about culture other than in monetary terms, and incompetence from the writers. It's absurd how so many people allowed this to happen but I never underestimate the human capacity for stupidity.

First of all, Happy New Year, my Reylo friends! As always, this is the best place to talk about TROS/ST right now.

Second, the whole thing with JB on Twitter/Instagram is really sad. If he's trying to be in the spotlight, he chose a very pathetic way to do it.

Last, but not least, I don't know if this new leak, trying to save JJ a** is right or not, but no amount of scenes or changes would make this move looks good. The dialogue itself is atrocious, the trio plot is just a random video-game plot, the story is a mess.

I will not blame only JJ and Terrio, they're just hired people. But after this movie, I'll not call them super talented people, because, god, the dialogue!

Anyway, as @californiagirl said, filmmaking is collaborative, and right now everything about ST looks wrong. To think that they didn't have a clear idea about the plot, about the characters, to think that they let the directors/writers to decide the path of the trilogy, all this sounds so amateur. I'm still bitter and I'm avoiding to talk about the movie with my friends. I believe they had great characters in their hands and they could have made this trilogy epic. But look at what we have right now: lots of BTS bullshit, filmmakers pointing at each other, actors trashing the movie, fan wars, trolls everywhere, it's almost comical. No, it's decidedly comical. Sad.

Good for Adam, who's wisely chosen to make sure he's out of it.
And kudos to Kelly for her amazing dignity and restraint.

In other news, Rae Carson came out on twitter that if the film included everything from the novelization, the movie would definitely be at least three hours long.

While I wouldn't have minded the movie to be longer, it would do nothing to save the plot, though. Man, I am really not looking forward to this book. I just know the author is going to glorify Rey being alone and taking the Skywalker name. No thanks.

Finally something nice to read:

“I always said, ‘The movie will tell us whether they should kiss or not. We will know by the time we get to the end of our process, if it should happen.’ And I felt it should, and [director J.J. Abrams] agreed with me, and other people who saw the film agreed.”

At least we have it confirmed JJ wanted to have the kiss in the movie.

https://collider.com/rise-of-skywalker-originally-explained-palpatine-backstory/?utm_campaign=collidersocial&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitter

@Atenais Yup, I'm increasingly getting the impression the flaws of TROS are due to numerous people and corporate entities, including but not limited to JJ and Terrio. I feel so bad for the SG, I suspect they're one of the victims here who didn't have the power to stop it. And yes, even my parents, who aren't that hard to please, noted the movie isn't very good, the dialogue is bad, and they thought Poe was one-dimensional. They complimented Adam though.

Has anyone noticed that Wookiepedia started a section on the TROS page for continuity issues (Snoke, Luke's X-wing, and 3PO's memories)? Whereas the TLJ one just has the bit about Rey and Poe meeting for the first time, and a side fact about the Holdo maneuver. And that's not even counting Rey's parentage, Palpatine's return, mischaracterization, and other connective tissue or things that pop up out of nowhere in TROS.
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Star_Wars%3A_Episode_IX_The_Rise_of_Skywalker#Continuity

But at least hooray for people officially supporting the kiss.

@MindAndMagic
Thanks so much! I loved the kiss part, justice!

@vinventure12
I'm a bit afraid of the novel. I need to know more about Reylo interactions and the glorious Ben Solo, but I don't want to get more angry lol

Only good comment on that embarrassing article was about the kiss. I can see some people annoyed by it, but I liked it. Yes, it's in the movie because it felt natural to the characters and their dynamic. End of story.

Also lol at JJ for sending Maryann and Terrio to give interviews because he's aware he made a s*** film and doesn't know how to explain himself.

JJ was in favor of Stormpilot?

Wasn't Poe supposed to die in The Force Awakens?

MindAndMagic wrote:Finally something nice to read:

“I always said, ‘The movie will tell us whether they should kiss or not. We will know by the time we get to the end of our process, if it should happen.’ And I felt it should, and [director J.J. Abrams] agreed with me, and other people who saw the film agreed.”

https://collider.com/rise-of-skywalker-originally-explained-palpatine-backstory/?utm_campaign=collidersocial&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitter

@MindAndMagic


Here's bit more from Maryann's interview in HuffPost

When Rey (Daisy Ridley) and Kylo (Adam Driver) snogged, it was the kiss heard around this galaxy and those far, far away. The moment made Reylo fans shout for joy and detractors just shout. According to Brandon, there was a lot of back-and-forth about whether the scene would happen at all. She cut a lot of different versions of “should they/shouldn’t they,” she said.

It makes me sad that they shot this film without having a plan for whether or not there would be something as monumental as a kiss. What a wishy-washy movie.

Didn't JJ say in an interview shortly before TROS that you can't have a movie like that without a kiss?

If JJ was going to rotoscope in old footage of Carrie, they should've included this scene to explain the backstory for the Emperor and Rey's dad

Piper Maru wrote:

SW_Heroine_Journey wrote:

Piper Maru wrote:A larger cut definitely exists, but people who are expecting for different plot points and character resolutions are going to be disappointed. I'm sure they kept their options open and had other scenarios, but the fact is that they released *this* product. The larger cut probably includes deleted scenes that are ultimately inconsequential for the story. They're already going full "release the JJ cut" on twitter and I'm just... no. The points/story decisions they had before the reshoots are irrelevant and probably locked in some Disney vault somewhere, considering no one ever leaked anything substantial about them (screenshots, for example).

I'm sure something bad happened behind the scenes, but it's hardly fault of just one person. And it's funny that the fandom is trying to paint JJ as the good guy. Everyone knows his track record and how he messed up not only his own franchises but other people's intellectual property.

@Piper Maru

One of the reasons I am concerned about Wonder Woman.  He now has that huge deal with WB, and rumors he may lead the DCEU.  We now know he doesn't care about the female gaze or the heroine's journey, so I'm eek!  I know Patty Jenkins will fight for her journey, so I hope this was a lesson for him.  I hope he doesn't want to be known as the man who severed two heroine's journeys on the big screen. (Note, I think WW84 is safe from him, I'm referring to any other future movies)

@SW_Heroine_Journey

I'm afraid JJ is incapable of learning lessons. I was there for the whole LOST situation and the Star Trek fiasco. It's been ten years of lies and incoherent storytelling, and look what happened to TRoS . I also hope the studio hires competent screenwriters to help, because what truly made TFA a decent film was Michael Arndt, Lawrence Kasdan and possibly Carrie Fisher. JJ all by himself or paired down with walking disasters like Terrio? Mess.

@Piper Maru



I remember a few months ago, 90% of SW fandom worshipped JJ and defended him to the point that they cyberbullied anyone who dared to question and worry that JJ would destroy SW and the sequels like what he did to Stak Trek and the fandom even called those people "entitled nonsense br*ts" because the large part of SW fandom chose to believe that JJ could save them one way or another. Look at how the table has turned. Even the established actors know JJ's true color and it's not too far-fetched to fear for the future of anything that has JJ's involvement

Oh my God, what a clusterf*ck of a post production process. They cut out sooooo much stuff, can you imagine if the Reylo kiss was on the cutting room floor, then Ben would have died for what? Everyone knows showing physical intimacy is the clearest indication of romance, which Rian clearly set up in TLJ.

Also the editor saying they wanted to focus on the Trio, yawn. When will they realise the Trio stuff is what bogged it down, what the critics ripped into the most?

So basically they left the kiss up to how the vibe was that day? Of how the movie was feeling? What a f****ing joke. They really didn't care about Ben at all and that's what breaks my heart. And then they make fun of us for giving a s*** about him. Well, what did you think would happen with him being the son of Leia Organa and Han Solo?!!!! If you wanted us to care for Rey they way we care for Ben, then you should've made her their daughter. But they didn't. My god.

You what's also confusing in retrospect? That the studio cleared having an entire Kabuki play in Japan as part of its promotion and it's likely better thought out and has themes for the character which run counter with what was shown in the movie itself

I’m glad that the kiss made it into the movie, but it’s pathetic that they basically couldn’t figure out what kind of story they wanted to tell with Ben and Rey and left it until their very last scene to define it. Everything basically hinges on that last-minute kiss; if it’s in it’s a romance, if it’s not then who the hell knows, it’s up to the audience to read it however they want. Whereas a good filmmaker would decide on it first and then make sure that the movie built up to it organically.

It’s a shame that they had so little confidence about one of the most compelling and most-praised aspects of this trilogy and ended up treating it in this insecure and wishy-washy manner.

OrionStars wrote:

Piper Maru wrote:

SW_Heroine_Journey wrote:

Piper Maru wrote:A larger cut definitely exists, but people who are expecting for different plot points and character resolutions are going to be disappointed. I'm sure they kept their options open and had other scenarios, but the fact is that they released *this* product. The larger cut probably includes deleted scenes that are ultimately inconsequential for the story. They're already going full "release the JJ cut" on twitter and I'm just... no. The points/story decisions they had before the reshoots are irrelevant and probably locked in some Disney vault somewhere, considering no one ever leaked anything substantial about them (screenshots, for example).

I'm sure something bad happened behind the scenes, but it's hardly fault of just one person. And it's funny that the fandom is trying to paint JJ as the good guy. Everyone knows his track record and how he messed up not only his own franchises but other people's intellectual property.

@Piper Maru

One of the reasons I am concerned about Wonder Woman.  He now has that huge deal with WB, and rumors he may lead the DCEU.  We now know he doesn't care about the female gaze or the heroine's journey, so I'm eek!  I know Patty Jenkins will fight for her journey, so I hope this was a lesson for him.  I hope he doesn't want to be known as the man who severed two heroine's journeys on the big screen. (Note, I think WW84 is safe from him, I'm referring to any other future movies)

@SW_Heroine_Journey

I'm afraid JJ is incapable of learning lessons. I was there for the whole LOST situation and the Star Trek fiasco. It's been ten years of lies and incoherent storytelling, and look what happened to TRoS . I also hope the studio hires competent screenwriters to help, because what truly made TFA a decent film was Michael Arndt, Lawrence Kasdan and possibly Carrie Fisher. JJ all by himself or paired down with walking disasters like Terrio? Mess.

@Piper Maru



I remember a few months ago, 90% of SW fandom worshipped JJ and defended him to the point that they cyberbullied anyone who dared to question and worry that JJ would destroy SW and the sequels like what he did to Stak Trek and the fandom even called those people "entitled nonsense br*ts" because the large part of SW fandom chose to believe that JJ could save them one way or another. Look at how the table has turned. Even the established actors know JJ's true color and it's not too far-fetched to fear for the future of anything that has JJ's involvement

@OrionStars

I am so sorry to you (to all!) about my insistence with anything. My default is to be positive, which I will never change, but I also admit if it was faulty in a specific circumstance. It was faulty here! lol

Ugh that I believed in JJ due to TFA (it's now obvious that Reylo in TFA was thanks to Kasdan). And I believed in CT because of his love of myth, and it seemed he understood the female gaze (he was watching The Piano when he received word about the screenwriting job).

I think if it was anything else, they would have done OK - but their SW dudebros, and they couldn't resist to have THEIR fanfic happen - ignoring the grander myth of SW. (So icky that their fanfic is worshipping Palpatine, and apparent Leia/Luke shipping).

Definitely a lesson learned with movie discussion (and TV shows)- for example, with WW84 - I know Patty Jenkins is in charge, but I am taking a backseat - no defense of anything, until the movie is known about/seen.

Saracene wrote:I’m glad that the kiss made it into the movie, but it’s pathetic that they basically couldn’t figure out what kind of story they wanted to tell with Ben and Rey and left it until their very last scene to define it. Everything basically hinges on that last-minute kiss; if it’s in it’s a romance, if it’s not then who the hell knows, it’s up to the audience to read it however they want. Whereas a good filmmaker would decide on it first and then make sure that the movie built up to it organically.

It’s a shame that they had so little confidence about one of the most compelling and most-praised aspects of this trilogy and ended up treating it in this insecure and wishy-washy manner.

@Saracene

Yeah, and it's pathetic because every single plot thread of the trilogy was built under the same philosophy. "Let's see where this goes" bullshit that destroys the narrative and alienates the audience. They even did that to their heroine's characterization, which you'd think would be their top priority. There's a difference between letting the story flow naturally and... this mess.

OrionStars wrote:

Piper Maru wrote:

SW_Heroine_Journey wrote:

Piper Maru wrote:A larger cut definitely exists, but people who are expecting for different plot points and character resolutions are going to be disappointed. I'm sure they kept their options open and had other scenarios, but the fact is that they released *this* product. The larger cut probably includes deleted scenes that are ultimately inconsequential for the story. They're already going full "release the JJ cut" on twitter and I'm just... no. The points/story decisions they had before the reshoots are irrelevant and probably locked in some Disney vault somewhere, considering no one ever leaked anything substantial about them (screenshots, for example).

I'm sure something bad happened behind the scenes, but it's hardly fault of just one person. And it's funny that the fandom is trying to paint JJ as the good guy. Everyone knows his track record and how he messed up not only his own franchises but other people's intellectual property.

@Piper Maru

One of the reasons I am concerned about Wonder Woman.  He now has that huge deal with WB, and rumors he may lead the DCEU.  We now know he doesn't care about the female gaze or the heroine's journey, so I'm eek!  I know Patty Jenkins will fight for her journey, so I hope this was a lesson for him.  I hope he doesn't want to be known as the man who severed two heroine's journeys on the big screen. (Note, I think WW84 is safe from him, I'm referring to any other future movies)

@SW_Heroine_Journey

I'm afraid JJ is incapable of learning lessons. I was there for the whole LOST situation and the Star Trek fiasco. It's been ten years of lies and incoherent storytelling, and look what happened to TRoS . I also hope the studio hires competent screenwriters to help, because what truly made TFA a decent film was Michael Arndt, Lawrence Kasdan and possibly Carrie Fisher. JJ all by himself or paired down with walking disasters like Terrio? Mess.

@Piper Maru



I remember a few months ago, 90% of SW fandom worshipped JJ and defended him to the point that they cyberbullied anyone who dared to question and worry that JJ would destroy SW and the sequels like what he did to Stak Trek and the fandom even called those people "entitled nonsense br*ts" because the large part of SW fandom chose to believe that JJ could save them one way or another. Look at how the table has turned. Even the established actors know JJ's true color and it's not too far-fetched to fear for the future of anything that has JJ's involvement

@OrionStars

Yes, I remember the comments about our "negative" view, that we shouldn't believe the leaks, etc. I believe it even was discussed on Fan Fatigue thread. Anyway, I understand people wanting to be positive. Yeah...