Official TROS Spoilers discussion

LadyHa wrote:

MindAndMagic wrote:Finally something nice to read:

“I always said, ‘The movie will tell us whether they should kiss or not. We will know by the time we get to the end of our process, if it should happen.’ And I felt it should, and [director J.J. Abrams] agreed with me, and other people who saw the film agreed.”

https://collider.com/rise-of-skywalker-originally-explained-palpatine-backstory/?utm_campaign=collidersocial&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitter

@MindAndMagic


Here's bit more from Maryann's interview in HuffPost

When Rey (Daisy Ridley) and Kylo (Adam Driver) snogged, it was the kiss heard around this galaxy and those far, far away. The moment made Reylo fans shout for joy and detractors just shout. According to Brandon, there was a lot of back-and-forth about whether the scene would happen at all. She cut a lot of different versions of “should they/shouldn’t they,” she said.

It makes me sad that they shot this film without having a plan for whether or not there would be something as monumental as a kiss. What a wishy-washy movie.

@LadyHa

This is a very weird reading! What was in their script if so many crucial things depended on various editing attempts and what worked and what didn't? Pure impressionism! Thanks god Adam acted his a** off and really fought for Ben Solo, it seams as if he earned the kiss by demonstrating it can look good and make the crew feel it's right. The storytellers (scriptwriters and the director himself) turn out to be too lazy to do the actual work with the story creation, and left so many things to be solved in the editing process. Who that person Maryann is? What were they thinking, that if Marcia Lucas allegedly saved Star Wars (IV), that it's the way to go again? I just can't believe we're witnessing the additional scriptwriter and the editor explaining the choices while the director is nowhere to been seen. It's so embarrassing!

It's futile to try to understand the logic behind their choices - Abrams was mentally too lazy to make choices. He didn't think about how Ben could survive and live in the aftermath, or what the relationship with Rey could be. It's so damn hard to think! Let's kill him, it's the simplest thing to do. Let's invent some stupid thing like the life force, and we're done with that. (I don't know much about SW lore, but logically, force healing could be no different than lifting rocks - you control matter, just on the micro level. You just repair the tissue by carefully using the force. I read it in a Reylo fanfic and it always seemed logical to me. No need for mumbo-jumbo magic life force that is zero-sum game.)

And if I read once more that they all love and adore Rose and Kelly, I will scream at the computer screen! If this is how you show love and adoration, then you're just blinding yourself to your own incompetence.

Atenais wrote:

OrionStars wrote:

Piper Maru wrote:

SW_Heroine_Journey wrote:

Piper Maru wrote:A larger cut definitely exists, but people who are expecting for different plot points and character resolutions are going to be disappointed. I'm sure they kept their options open and had other scenarios, but the fact is that they released *this* product. The larger cut probably includes deleted scenes that are ultimately inconsequential for the story. They're already going full "release the JJ cut" on twitter and I'm just... no. The points/story decisions they had before the reshoots are irrelevant and probably locked in some Disney vault somewhere, considering no one ever leaked anything substantial about them (screenshots, for example).

I'm sure something bad happened behind the scenes, but it's hardly fault of just one person. And it's funny that the fandom is trying to paint JJ as the good guy. Everyone knows his track record and how he messed up not only his own franchises but other people's intellectual property.

@Piper Maru

One of the reasons I am concerned about Wonder Woman.  He now has that huge deal with WB, and rumors he may lead the DCEU.  We now know he doesn't care about the female gaze or the heroine's journey, so I'm eek!  I know Patty Jenkins will fight for her journey, so I hope this was a lesson for him.  I hope he doesn't want to be known as the man who severed two heroine's journeys on the big screen. (Note, I think WW84 is safe from him, I'm referring to any other future movies)

@SW_Heroine_Journey

I'm afraid JJ is incapable of learning lessons. I was there for the whole LOST situation and the Star Trek fiasco. It's been ten years of lies and incoherent storytelling, and look what happened to TRoS . I also hope the studio hires competent screenwriters to help, because what truly made TFA a decent film was Michael Arndt, Lawrence Kasdan and possibly Carrie Fisher. JJ all by himself or paired down with walking disasters like Terrio? Mess.

@Piper Maru



I remember a few months ago, 90% of SW fandom worshipped JJ and defended him to the point that they cyberbullied anyone who dared to question and worry that JJ would destroy SW and the sequels like what he did to Stak Trek and the fandom even called those people "entitled nonsense br*ts" because the large part of SW fandom chose to believe that JJ could save them one way or another. Look at how the table has turned. Even the established actors know JJ's true color and it's not too far-fetched to fear for the future of anything that has JJ's involvement

@OrionStars

Yes, I remember the comments about our "negative" view, that we shouldn't believe the leaks, etc. I believe it even was discussed on Fan Fatigue thread. Anyway, I understand people wanting to be positive. Yeah...

@Atenais

I'm ready to be positive flogged! (I admit feeling negative about it, but I deserve it!)

It seems the only reason reylo even happened was all because of adam and daisy's chemistry. Down to the kiss, even if they weren't sure where it would go, the purity of that moment was undeniable.

Piper Maru wrote:Only good comment on that embarrassing article was about the kiss. I can see some people annoyed by it, but I liked it. Yes, it's in the movie because it felt natural to the characters and their dynamic. End of story.

Also lol at JJ for sending Maryann and Terrio to give interviews because he's aware he made a s*** film and doesn't know how to explain himself.

@Piper Maru

It felt natural for some people and not for others. As I just wrote in the "GA/family comment", I sat between my oldes bro and my best frienv during the second viewing. My oldest bro - who doesn't mind Reylo - told me he didn't feel the kiss was necessary. As for my best friend, I felt he was surprised during this moment. Maybe it's due to the French translation and tone. I've never felt that Reylo sounded as romantic as the original version in French. One thing that I take from many reaction from closed ones and on social medias is that some people feel the romantic vibe, others don't. The romantic vibe is so underlying even in this movie that it doesn't scream romance for many people, more like romantic potential for some or just yin/yang dynamic for others. The moment where romantic potential really shows up is when Rey breaks in tears confessing "I wanted to take your hand, Ben's hand". The rest is rather underlying because they made it all unspoken. Thus, it's easy not to get any romantic vibe from their previous exchanges in TROS.

rey09 wrote:It seems the only reason reylo even happened was all because of adam and daisy's chemistry. Down to the kiss, even if they weren't sure where it would go, the purity of that moment was undeniable.

@rey09

I feel as though I am missing something that was posted/revealed in an article - fill me in!

So, the kiss was not in the script, but Daisy and Adam made it happen, or kept kissing during the shooting takes, so it was kept? Or am I completely off? lol

What I want to know is has there ever been a movie like this where the person they continually throw out there to talk about the damn thing is the *editor*? Lol.

I mean, I'm sure it's partly because everyone is on holiday, but still.

SW_Heroine_Journey wrote:

rey09 wrote:It seems the only reason reylo even happened was all because of adam and daisy's chemistry. Down to the kiss, even if they weren't sure where it would go, the purity of that moment was undeniable.

@rey09

I feel as though I am missing something that was posted/revealed in an article - fill me in!

So, the kiss was not in the script, but Daisy and Adam made it happen, or kept kissing during the shooting takes, so it was kept? Or am I completely off? lol

@SW_Heroine_Journey

The editor for the movie said this: “I always said, ‘The movie will tell us whether they should kiss or not. We will know by the time we get to the end of our process, if it should happen.’ And I felt it should, and [director J.J. Abrams] agreed with me, and other people who saw the film agreed.”

suggests they never really planned to have it, it was just a possibility

rey09 wrote:

SW_Heroine_Journey wrote:

rey09 wrote:It seems the only reason reylo even happened was all because of adam and daisy's chemistry. Down to the kiss, even if they weren't sure where it would go, the purity of that moment was undeniable.

@rey09

I feel as though I am missing something that was posted/revealed in an article - fill me in!

So, the kiss was not in the script, but Daisy and Adam made it happen, or kept kissing during the shooting takes, so it was kept? Or am I completely off? lol

@SW_Heroine_Journey

The editor for the movie said this: “I always said, ‘The movie will tell us whether they should kiss or not. We will know by the time we get to the end of our process, if it should happen.’ And I felt it should, and [director J.J. Abrams] agreed with me, and other people who saw the film agreed.”

suggests they never really planned to have it, it was just a possibility

@rey09

Oh...My...God...

Well thank the romantic kissing gods cupid shot all of them. Holy though!

reylo1992 wrote:

Piper Maru wrote:Only good comment on that embarrassing article was about the kiss. I can see some people annoyed by it, but I liked it. Yes, it's in the movie because it felt natural to the characters and their dynamic. End of story.

Also lol at JJ for sending Maryann and Terrio to give interviews because he's aware he made a s*** film and doesn't know how to explain himself.

@Piper Maru

It felt natural for some people and not for others. As I just wrote in the "GA/family comment", I sat between my oldes bro and my best frienv during the second viewing. My oldest bro - who doesn't mind Reylo - told me he didn't feel  the kiss was necessary. As for my best friend, I felt he was surprised during this moment. Maybe it's due to the French translation and tone. I've never felt that Reylo sounded as romantic as the original version in French. One thing that I take from many reaction from closed ones and on social medias is that some people feel the romantic vibe, others don't. The romantic vibe is so underlying even in this movie that it doesn't scream romance for many people, more like romantic potential for some or just yin/yang dynamic for others. The moment where romantic potential really shows up is when Rey breaks in tears confessing "I wanted to take your hand, Ben's hand". The rest is rather underlying because they made it all unspoken. Thus, it's easy not to get any romantic vibe from their previous exchanges in TROS.  

@reylo1992

I agree it was not well-executed but at this point I just don't care anymore. They had the guts to do it and stand by it, and it's the least they could do.

And anecdotal evidence for this film varies a lot, because the film was made with no purpose or clear narrative, so the audience reactions are basically reactions you get from a Rorschach test.

Piper Maru wrote:

reylo1992 wrote:

Piper Maru wrote:Only good comment on that embarrassing article was about the kiss. I can see some people annoyed by it, but I liked it. Yes, it's in the movie because it felt natural to the characters and their dynamic. End of story.

Also lol at JJ for sending Maryann and Terrio to give interviews because he's aware he made a s*** film and doesn't know how to explain himself.

@Piper Maru

It felt natural for some people and not for others. As I just wrote in the "GA/family comment", I sat between my oldes bro and my best frienv during the second viewing. My oldest bro - who doesn't mind Reylo - told me he didn't feel  the kiss was necessary. As for my best friend, I felt he was surprised during this moment. Maybe it's due to the French translation and tone. I've never felt that Reylo sounded as romantic as the original version in French. One thing that I take from many reaction from closed ones and on social medias is that some people feel the romantic vibe, others don't. The romantic vibe is so underlying even in this movie that it doesn't scream romance for many people, more like romantic potential for some or just yin/yang dynamic for others. The moment where romantic potential really shows up is when Rey breaks in tears confessing "I wanted to take your hand, Ben's hand". The rest is rather underlying because they made it all unspoken. Thus, it's easy not to get any romantic vibe from their previous exchanges in TROS.  

@reylo1992

I agree it was not well-executed but at this point I just don't care anymore. They had the guts to do it and stand by it, and it's the least they could do.

And anecdotal evidence for this film varies a lot, because the film was made with no purpose or clear narrative, so the audience reactions are basically reactions you get from a Rorschach test.

@Piper Maru

Yeah, I'm not upset about their comments re: the kiss. They're actually quite nice and aptly timed given the J.J. rumours and the nonsense from the other day. It sounds like they all *wanted* there to be a kiss, they just left allowances if it wasn't the right thing (I remember once upon a time that even I wasn't sure if I would have them kiss in my version of events - of course my idea of an ending was totally different). What I'm saying is, it sounds like this aspect was natural and wanted by most working on it, which is a pretty drama-free thing to hear. Not that idiots will listen to that.

Agree that they just didn't plan out literally anything beyond just a surface level, which is why we also have weird takes like, "I like to think Ben's with his mother" (you never ONCE discussed it?) and the fact that they can't even commit to the idea that Rey was dead. I'm not sure how offended I can be on any aspect of this film that can't even state what its most rudimentary bottom lines are.

Piper Maru wrote:

reylo1992 wrote:

Piper Maru wrote:Only good comment on that embarrassing article was about the kiss. I can see some people annoyed by it, but I liked it. Yes, it's in the movie because it felt natural to the characters and their dynamic. End of story.

Also lol at JJ for sending Maryann and Terrio to give interviews because he's aware he made a s*** film and doesn't know how to explain himself.

@Piper Maru

It felt natural for some people and not for others. As I just wrote in the "GA/family comment", I sat between my oldes bro and my best frienv during the second viewing. My oldest bro - who doesn't mind Reylo - told me he didn't feel  the kiss was necessary. As for my best friend, I felt he was surprised during this moment. Maybe it's due to the French translation and tone. I've never felt that Reylo sounded as romantic as the original version in French. One thing that I take from many reaction from closed ones and on social medias is that some people feel the romantic vibe, others don't. The romantic vibe is so underlying even in this movie that it doesn't scream romance for many people, more like romantic potential for some or just yin/yang dynamic for others. The moment where romantic potential really shows up is when Rey breaks in tears confessing "I wanted to take your hand, Ben's hand". The rest is rather underlying because they made it all unspoken. Thus, it's easy not to get any romantic vibe from their previous exchanges in TROS.  

@reylo1992

I agree it was not well-executed but at this point I just don't care anymore. They had the guts to do it and stand by it, and it's the least they could do.

And anecdotal evidence for this film varies a lot, because the film was made with no purpose or clear narrative, so the audience reactions are basically reactions you get from a Rorschach test.

@Piper Maru

I was really hoping this movie wouldn't be a Rorschach test – kind of like how TLJ was – but alas, that's what it turned out to be. Some people saw and felt the underlying romance, some didn't. Now there is always going to be a debate in the fandom whether Reylo needed to end romantic as it did or not. Or if the kiss is even romantic in nature, which I've seen some people say it's more of a platonic kiss... whatever that means. I just don't understand how you can start a story without knowing where you're going with it. For it to be coherent, you need to keep your ending in sight so the story doesn't go all over the place. Has anyone seen the interview with AD where he said he didn't even know what the ending was going to be? Was he talking about while filming TROS he didn't know where it was leading to, or just when they pitched him the part of Kylo six years ago, he didn't know how his character arc would end?

I want to know how many takes of the kiss there were to choose from, Maryann

Yesterday my kid asked me “if they actually kiss in movies.”
Then he asked if Daisy and Adam are “married in real life,” and when I said, “No. They’re with other people,” he was scandalized, lol. That scene must’ve made an impression. I’m so thankful it didn’t get cut

Also, to people saying it’s not a romantic kiss... their mouths were partially opened? Rey had been looking forward to latching on to his face for a while.

Maryann was giving interviews after TFA (she was the one who said that JJ's original intention was that Leia knows "who" Rey is) but she wasn't explaining all story decisions, especially with the implication that so much was decided in the editing room. JJ is famous for this "I will decide which story I'm telling during editing" style which is ridiculous for the third movie when you additionally decided to push new developments as TRIO.

She is saying that Rose was cut because we should understand that they needed to make room for three friends and Reylo, so there are too many characters. But your boss, Maryann, created Zorii for Poe and Jannah for Finn instead of developing realistic relationship between the TRIO and Finn and Rose, so we don't believe you, Maryann.

JJ and Maryann are very close, perhaps she decided to take all fire on herself as it's obvious that people are already very negative towards JJ, no matter what he would say or stay silent. I only wonder if the studio (Iger and Kathy) did made an ultimatum to them: cut it to 2:15 to make it more rewatchable in the theory (good for legs) and to allow more screenings in the theatres.

MaddieDove wrote:

And if I read once more that they all love and adore Rose and Kelly, I will scream at the computer screen! If this is how you show love and adoration, then you're just blinding yourself to your own incompetence.

@MaddieDove

It really is maddening! From the same HuffPost article::

...I cut to her [Rose] a few times in the end battle because I know she’s a fan favorite, and I wanted to show her being involved.”

How awkward to admit that the only reason Rose showed up at all is because she's a "fan favorite," not because she's important to the story!

It got me thinking more about the character of Rose compared to Jannah. I heard an observation on the WTF Podcast that Rose was constantly challenging Finn in TLJ (as was Holdo to Poe), while, in contrast, Jannah unconditionally follows and supports Finn. This is especially noticeable at the end where Finn is planning to go down with the ship. Jannah says, "I'm staying with you." In a subsequent scene, Rose actually has a few lines and tries to get Finn to come with them to safety, but he refuses. Jannah is right by his side.

However, I haven't watched TROS enough times to be confident that this is a reasonable reading on my part. Does anyone remember Jannah leading or challenging Finn in any way? Is Jannah a more standard female character because of this? So, maybe Finn's dating life went from Rey and Rose, who both argued with and pushed him, to Jannah, who supported him and let him take the lead? Should we read this as he finally found someone who simply understands and defers him? Ouch.

Despite my skepticism of how her character was written, if Disney+ made new shows for each of the characters that survived to the end of TROS, I think I would watch Jannah's first.

[quote]

Piper Maru

reylo1992

Piper MaruOnly good comment on that embarrassing article was about the kiss. I can see some people annoyed by it, but I liked it. Yes, it's in the movie because it felt natural to the characters and their dynamic. End of story.

Also lol at JJ for sending Maryann and Terrio to give interviews because he's aware he made a s*** film and doesn't know how to explain himself.

@Piper Maru

It felt natural for some people and not for others. As I just wrote in the "GA/family comment", I sat between my oldes bro and my best frienv during the second viewing. My oldest bro - who doesn't mind Reylo - told me he didn't feel  the kiss was necessary. As for my best friend, I felt he was surprised during this moment. Maybe it's due to the French translation and tone. I've never felt that Reylo sounded as romantic as the original version in French. One thing that I take from many reaction from closed ones and on social medias is that some people feel the romantic vibe, others don't. The romantic vibe is so underlying even in this movie that it doesn't scream romance for many people, more like romantic potential for some or just yin/yang dynamic for others. The moment where romantic potential really shows up is when Rey breaks in tears confessing "I wanted to take your hand, Ben's hand". The rest is rather underlying because they made it all unspoken. Thus, it's easy not to get any romantic vibe from their previous exchanges in TROS.  

@reylo1992

I agree it was not well-executed but at this point I just don't care anymore. They had the guts to do it and stand by it, and it's the least they could do.

And anecdotal evidence for this film varies a lot, because the film was made with no purpose or clear narrative, so the audience reactions are basically reactions you get from a Rorschach test.

@Piper Maru

That's your POV but that's not mine after watching the movie for the second time, in my native language (not English) so that I didn't miss any detail and keeping my head out of any negativity spread on social medias. I personally think it was a good SW movie, see the purpose of it and felt it's much more coherent than how it is presented in the leaks, by people in social medias and even here.  I have realized during the second viewing that I went to the first viewing being a little biased by the negavity spread on social medias weeks before it came on the theaters. As for complaints, I understand them but I must admit that I  find the fandom a little annoying these last days, including Reylos. From the moment the leaks revealed that Rey was a Palpatine and Ben wasn't gonna survive, I think a lot of people went to the theaters thinking the movie would be mediocre anyway. I came out from first viewing thinking it was fun to watch but i.e. feeling upset that Finn got reduced to chase Rey and realized during the second viewing how biased my initial reaction was. What I see is that they always maintained that kylo and Rey were the heart of the story and that the heart of Rey's emotional journey is with Kylo. Maybe they should have made Reylo a little more obvious because even from my Reylo-biased POV I can understand why for many people their interactions doesn't scream romance or at least it's not the core of their connection. As for Daisy and Adam, they obviously don't mind pairing Rey and Kylo as romantic but they never pushed the idea either because the connection ain't reductive to romance and could also work without it.
https://twitter.com/daisyhoIland/status/1208094009392029698

I personally like the kiss but I get why some people don't feel completely right about that moment because it's such a slowburn romance with mostly subtle hints. I think a lot of people got there was mutual attraction but it's more difficult to grasp feeings given Kylo's explicit motivations and Rey's explicit anger. I also feel like some fans on social medias react kind of oversensitive to these questions, Reylos as well as Antis. It's like every minority wants the cake and can't be satisfied about the part that is granted. In the end, the fact that both confessed their feeling (him in TLJ, her in TROS) and that they kissed makes it canon whatever anyone else thinks about this relationship but everybody is free to think that it's not an healthy relationship for a romance or not the core of their relationship

special_cases wrote:Maryann was giving interviews after TFA (she was the one who said that JJ's original intention was that Leia knows "who" Rey is) but she wasn't explaining all story decisions, especially with the implication that so much was decided in the editing room. JJ is famous for this "I will decide which story I'm telling during editing" style which is ridiculous for the third movie when you additionally decided to push new developments as TRIO.

She is saying that Rose was cut because we should understand that they needed to make room for three friends and Reylo, so there are too many characters. But your boss, Maryann, created Zorii for Poe and Jannah for Finn instead of developing realistic relationship between the TRIO and Finn and Rose, so we don't believe you, Maryann.

JJ and Maryann are very close, perhaps she decided to take all fire on herself as it's obvious that people are already very negative towards JJ, no matter what he would say or stay silent. I only wonder if the studio (Iger and Kathy) did made an ultimatum to them: cut it to 2:15 to make it more rewatchable in the theory (good for legs) and to allow more screenings in the theatres.

@special_cases

Don't forget this legendary role.



JJ turned TROS into a circus of him and his friends. A 42-year-old saga of the Skywalker family had to be sacrificed for the sake of those b*******.

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