Aftermath: Life Debt by Chuck Wending

ISeeAnIsland wrote:Ooh! Ooh! Ooh!

I just thought of something! You know how there have been the lines about Snoke targeting Ben from the beginning, etc?

(Pulling from another thread)
"It's more than just having a 'bad seed' as a kid. Snoke had targeted this kid and knew that this kid was going to be incredibly powerful in The Force and wanted him as an ally." -- JJ Abrams

What if Snoke was present or had a conduit present at the battle of Jakku and crossed paths with a very pregnant Princess Leia? (Assuming that Snoke already knew about the family connection to the Force?) Ben could have had a target on his back from before he was ever even born.

@ISeeAnIsland

Holy crap!!!

Wasn't it you who speculated that Ben may have been born on Jakku? The only caveat to this is Pablo very recently said that where Ben was born hasn't come up in a story yet, so it's unknown at this point.

Still, that's not to say Snoke may not have met a very pregnant Leia on Jakku. In fact, that'd make complete sense if he had...

IoJovi wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:Ooh! Ooh! Ooh!

I just thought of something! You know how there have been the lines about Snoke targeting Ben from the beginning, etc?

(Pulling from another thread)
"It's more than just having a 'bad seed' as a kid. Snoke had targeted this kid and knew that this kid was going to be incredibly powerful in The Force and wanted him as an ally." -- JJ Abrams

What if Snoke was present or had a conduit present at the battle of Jakku and crossed paths with a very pregnant Princess Leia? (Assuming that Snoke already knew about the family connection to the Force?) Ben could have had a target on his back from before he was ever even born.

@ISeeAnIsland

Holy crap!!!

Wasn't it you who speculated that Ben may have been born on Jakku? The only caveat to this is Pablo very recently said that where Ben was born hasn't come up in a story yet, so it's unknown at this point.

Still, that's not to say Snoke may not have met a very pregnant Leia on Jakku. In fact, that'd make complete sense if he had...

@IoJovi

Yeah, that was me. I wasn't sure whether to interpret Pablo's tweet whether to mean that the story team didn't know where Ben was born or that it simply hadn't been revealed in whatever story yet.

In any case, even if Ben wasn't born on Jakku, that wouldn't preclude a very-pregnant Leia from crossing paths with Snoke (who would know that the birth of her child was imminent) or with some representative of Snoke's.

Yes, and that representative of Snoke being Rax. I'm not quite sold on the theory that Rax is actually Snoke, but dangit if there aren't some interesting parallels there...

IoJovi wrote:Yes, and that representative of Snoke being Rax. I'm not quite sold on the theory that Rax is actually Snoke, but dangit if there aren't some interesting parallels there...

@IoJovi

I don't think that Rax is Snoke necessarily, but I do think that there's some sort of connection between the two. And yeah, I suspect that we'll see Leia cross paths with Rax in Empire's End at some point.

My mom is half way through Life Debt, and while she likes the story, she said Chuck Wendig's wordy writing style is making it drag. It is a good story, but I don't disagree with her there. Bloodlines didn't give us as many clues as Life Debt, but I do agree it was easier to read and the story flowed better.

I'm still looking forward to Empire's End and the Battle of Jakku.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:Ooh! Ooh! Ooh!

I just thought of something! You know how there have been the lines about Snoke targeting Ben from the beginning, etc?

(Pulling from another thread)
"It's more than just having a 'bad seed' as a kid. Snoke had targeted this kid and knew that this kid was going to be incredibly powerful in The Force and wanted him as an ally." -- JJ Abrams

What if Snoke was present or had a conduit present at the battle of Jakku and crossed paths with a very pregnant Princess Leia? (Assuming that Snoke already knew about the family connection to the Force?) Ben could have had a target on his back from before he was ever even born.

@ISeeAnIsland

Exactly. :-) In fact, if you read that "Leia feels the force and Baby Ben" scene a certain way, some kind of darkness may already be trying to get Ben. She calls out to Luke *and Ben answers*. She has this overwhelmingly positive experience of her son. She feels the force for the first time. She feels her son's great personality and the "light" of his life force ... and then suddenly some kind of darkness starts smothering the whole moment. Was that Leia just getting worried or was there more to that?

Also, something is definitely going to go down on Jakku and with whatever's buried there and whatever Rax is about (I don't think he's Snoke, but I think he is connected to something in the Unknown Regions), "something" could very well latch onto Ben as soon as he's born, as soon as he is physically separated from his mother's life force ... if he's born on Jakku. Oooh! That gave me shivers. What a tragic scenario. Talk about never having a chance to be normal.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:Ooh! Ooh! Ooh!

I just thought of something! You know how there have been the lines about Snoke targeting Ben from the beginning, etc?

(Pulling from another thread)
"It's more than just having a 'bad seed' as a kid. Snoke had targeted this kid and knew that this kid was going to be incredibly powerful in The Force and wanted him as an ally." -- JJ Abrams

What if Snoke was present or had a conduit present at the battle of Jakku and crossed paths with a very pregnant Princess Leia? (Assuming that Snoke already knew about the family connection to the Force?) Ben could have had a target on his back from before he was ever even born.

@ISeeAnIsland

Exactly. :-) In fact, if you read that "Leia feels the force and Baby Ben" scene a certain way, some kind of darkness may already be trying to get Ben. She calls out to Luke *and Ben answers*. She has this overwhelmingly positive experience of her son. She feels the force for the first time. She feels her son's great personality and the "light" of his life force ... and then suddenly some kind of darkness starts smothering the whole moment. Was that Leia just getting worried or was there more to that?

Also, something is definitely going to go down on Jakku and with whatever's buried there and whatever Rax is about (I don't think he's Snoke, but I think he is connected to something in the Unknown Regions), "something" could very well latch onto Ben as soon as he's born, as soon as he is physically separated from his mother's life force ... if he's born on Jakku. Oooh! That gave me shivers. What a tragic scenario. Talk about never having a chance to be normal.

@SoloSideCousin

All of this. And it also makes me wonder that if Rey was born on Jakku (as opposed to dropped off there, as some of us have speculated), was she possibly exposed to the same thing that Ben was exposed to? That would certainly be another check on the "two sides of the same coin" checklist.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:Ooh! Ooh! Ooh!

I just thought of something! You know how there have been the lines about Snoke targeting Ben from the beginning, etc?

(Pulling from another thread)
"It's more than just having a 'bad seed' as a kid. Snoke had targeted this kid and knew that this kid was going to be incredibly powerful in The Force and wanted him as an ally." -- JJ Abrams

What if Snoke was present or had a conduit present at the battle of Jakku and crossed paths with a very pregnant Princess Leia? (Assuming that Snoke already knew about the family connection to the Force?) Ben could have had a target on his back from before he was ever even born.

@ISeeAnIsland

Exactly. :-) In fact, if you read that "Leia feels the force and Baby Ben" scene a certain way, some kind of darkness may already be trying to get Ben. She calls out to Luke *and Ben answers*. She has this overwhelmingly positive experience of her son. She feels the force for the first time. She feels her son's great personality and the "light" of his life force ... and then suddenly some kind of darkness starts smothering the whole moment. Was that Leia just getting worried or was there more to that?

Also, something is definitely going to go down on Jakku and with whatever's buried there and whatever Rax is about (I don't think he's Snoke, but I think he is connected to something in the Unknown Regions), "something" could very well latch onto Ben as soon as he's born, as soon as he is physically separated from his mother's life force ... if he's born on Jakku. Oooh! That gave me shivers. What a tragic scenario. Talk about never having a chance to be normal.

@SoloSideCousin

All of this. And it also makes me wonder that if Rey was born on Jakku (as opposed to dropped off there, as some of us have speculated), was she possibly exposed to the same thing that Ben was exposed to? That would certainly be another check on the "two sides of the same coin" checklist.

@ISeeAnIsland

It definitely would be. And I think that it is entirely possible that she was born there, especially if she is from some dark side people who were hiding out there. The forceback actually didn't show a drop off (though it wouldn't have to), but still, the leaving ship could be straight up abandonment. OR ... they only meant to leave her temporarily ... though Unkar Plutt as a babysitter is bad news ... unless they thought he was the best "protector" in town from an organized crime point of view? I'm trying to remember that bit from the novelization where she was fascinated with this mother and son that wore some kind of tribal face paint that were standing near a ship on Jakku. I don't know if they ever actually filmed that and then just replaced Rey's staring with the very wrinkled older woman or what. I think there might have been some concept art with a family near a ship too. She does watch a ship fly away when eating at the AT-AT I think, and if I remember correctly it seemed not dissimilar in shape from the Forceback ship. Aaaagggghhhhh!!! So many little enigmas!!!! LOL!!!! (shakes fist at JJ )

Isn't Rax the same character who was also tasked w/rounding up toddler Hux and making the "Empire needs children" comment. Would fit with targeting Ben in utero. Though is public knowledge who the (respectable public identity not secret evil identity) Leia's biological father was?

If something's going on there and either Rey gets dumped there into Unkar Plutt's workhouse/day care center or is born there, then they have to loop back somehow to Jakku in future installments (I just like the idea of Finn having the sick realization that he has to go back there a 3rd time).

I haven't read this thread very much...but I have not read Aftermath: Life Debt yet. Would you all recommend the book?

snufkin wrote:Isn't Rax the same character who was also tasked w/rounding up toddler Hux and making the "Empire needs children" comment. Would fit with targeting Ben in utero. Though is public knowledge who the (respectable public identity not secret evil identity) Leia's biological father was?

If something's going on there and either Rey gets dumped there into Unkar Plutt's workhouse/day care center or is born there, then they have to loop back somehow to Jakku in future installments (I just like the idea of Finn having the sick realization that he has to go back there a 3rd time).

@snufkin

Yes, Rax is the one who ordered Admiral Rae Sloane to retrieve Brendol and Armitage Hux and also made the "the Empire needs children" comment. (For those in this thread who haven't read the book, Sloane is a very intriguing character--she's definitely in the Ransolm Casterfo mold of truly believing what she and the Empire are doing is right, but she doesn't trust Rax at all. Sloane is definitely a (dark) gray character.)

spoiler:

At the time of Life Debt, Leia's birth father isn't public knowledge, although I believe that it's public knowledge that she was adopted by Bail and Breha Organa. Her father's identity isn't made public until Bloodline. However, with the way that they've characterized Rax, I wouldn't be surprised if he knew through some avenue.

But even if Rax didn't know...perhaps there was a scenario where he targeted Ben for simply being Leia's kid and found out that Ben was Force sensitive later on, and that just turned out to be a bonus.

Birdwoman wrote:I haven't read this thread very much...but I have not read Aftermath: Life Debt yet. Would you all recommend the book?

@Birdwoman

It was entertaining, but I didn't love it in the same way that I loved Bloodline. Definitely worth a read, though. I get the impression that the final book in the trilogy that's coming out next winter (Empire's End) is going to set up a lot of things for TFA.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

Birdwoman wrote:I haven't read this thread very much...but I have not read Aftermath: Life Debt yet. Would you all recommend the book?

@Birdwoman

It was entertaining, but I didn't love it in the same way that I loved Bloodline. Definitely worth a read, though. I get the impression that the final book in the trilogy that's coming out next winter (Empire's End) is going to set up a lot of things for TFA.

@ISeeAnIsland

Same here. While it offers more clues to the overall story than Bloodlines, it was as riveting to read. My mom said the same thing, she loved Bloodlines, but found Chuck Wendig's writing style way too wordy which caused it to drag. I enjoyed it a lot, but I thought BL offered a better story overall. Still, I'd recommend it for any fan of the ST as it does offer a lot or clues and material for speculation.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

snufkin wrote:Isn't Rax the same character who was also tasked w/rounding up toddler Hux and making the "Empire needs children" comment. Would fit with targeting Ben in utero. Though is public knowledge who the (respectable public identity not secret evil identity) Leia's biological father was?

If something's going on there and either Rey gets dumped there into Unkar Plutt's workhouse/day care center or is born there, then they have to loop back somehow to Jakku in future installments (I just like the idea of Finn having the sick realization that he has to go back there a 3rd time).

@snufkin

Yes, Rax is the one who ordered Admiral Rae Sloane to retrieve Brendol and Armitage Hux and also made the "the Empire needs children" comment. (For those in this thread who haven't read the book, Sloane is a very intriguing character--she's definitely in the Ransolm Casterfo mold of truly believing what she and the Empire are doing is right, but she doesn't trust Rax at all. Sloane is definitely a (dark) gray character.)

spoiler:

At the time of Life Debt, Leia's birth father isn't public knowledge, although I believe that it's public knowledge that she was adopted by Bail and Breha Organa. Her father's identity isn't made public until Bloodline. However, with the way that they've characterized Rax, I wouldn't be surprised if he knew through some avenue.

But even if Rax didn't know...perhaps there was a scenario where he targeted Ben for simply being Leia's kid and found out that Ben was Force sensitive later on, and that just turned out to be a bonus.

@ISeeAnIsland

Huh you were faster than me, just directly stealing one of my thoughts lol

I wanted to comment the fact that the news about Leia s being Vader s daughter broke 6 years prior to TFA (Bloodline).
In the book Leia was sure only Han and Luke knew the fact.
As per JJ: "Snoke knew this kid was going to be powerful in the Force"
I would say that Snoke should knew Ben s true identity as well.
And that fits in the theory Rax = Snoke. Because Rax was close to Palpatine, and Palpatine knew the truth (at least of Vader being Luke s father already after ESB)
Just speculating..

Darth_Awakened wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

snufkin wrote:Isn't Rax the same character who was also tasked w/rounding up toddler Hux and making the "Empire needs children" comment. Would fit with targeting Ben in utero. Though is public knowledge who the (respectable public identity not secret evil identity) Leia's biological father was?

If something's going on there and either Rey gets dumped there into Unkar Plutt's workhouse/day care center or is born there, then they have to loop back somehow to Jakku in future installments (I just like the idea of Finn having the sick realization that he has to go back there a 3rd time).

@snufkin

Yes, Rax is the one who ordered Admiral Rae Sloane to retrieve Brendol and Armitage Hux and also made the "the Empire needs children" comment. (For those in this thread who haven't read the book, Sloane is a very intriguing character--she's definitely in the Ransolm Casterfo mold of truly believing what she and the Empire are doing is right, but she doesn't trust Rax at all. Sloane is definitely a (dark) gray character.)

spoiler:

At the time of Life Debt, Leia's birth father isn't public knowledge, although I believe that it's public knowledge that she was adopted by Bail and Breha Organa. Her father's identity isn't made public until Bloodline. However, with the way that they've characterized Rax, I wouldn't be surprised if he knew through some avenue.

But even if Rax didn't know...perhaps there was a scenario where he targeted Ben for simply being Leia's kid and found out that Ben was Force sensitive later on, and that just turned out to be a bonus.

@ISeeAnIsland

Huh you were faster than me, just directly stealing  one of my thoughts lol

I wanted to comment the fact that the news about Leia s being Vader s daughter broke 6 years prior to TFA (Bloodline).
In the book Leia was sure only Han and Luke knew the fact.
As per JJ: "Snoke knew this kid was going to be powerful in the Force"
I would say that Snoke should knew Ben s true identity as well.
And that fits in the theory Rax = Snoke. Because Rax was close to Palpatine, and Palpatine knew the truth (at least of Vader being Luke s father already after ESB)
Just speculating..

@Darth_Awakened

Recently Chuck Wenidng answered someone on twitter that every imperial seen or mentioned in Life Debt is human.So Rax can't be Snoke becaise Snoke's a humanoid.
But there could be some connection between Snoke and Rax because he seems to be aware o what led to Palpatine's fall and Vader's redemption.

@CienaRee To be fair, prior to the PT, I wouldn't have thought Palpatine to be human either. Yet, we now know he was - he was just deformed from his little Force lightning accident with Mace Windu. I too, don't think Rax is actually Snoke, but there's still a high chance that Snoke is human, or at was at one time.

IoJovi wrote:@CienaRee To be fair, prior to the PT, I wouldn't have thought Palpatine to be human either.  Yet, we now know he was - he was just deformed from his little Force lightning accident with Mace Windu.  I too, don't think Rax is actually Snoke, but there's still a high chance that Snoke is human, or at was at one time.

@IoJovi

IoJovi wrote:@CienaRee To be fair, prior to the PT, I wouldn't have thought Palpatine to be human either.  Yet, we now know he was - he was just deformed from his little Force lightning accident with Mace Windu.  I too, don't think Rax is actually Snoke, but there's still a high chance that Snoke is human, or at was at one time.

@IoJovi

Yeah,I'm not sure what's the difference between humn and humanoid but SW wiki put them under different categories so I assumed they were different:
A humanoid was an organic^[1] or mechanical^[2] being similar in overall form to a Human, the most common sentient species in the galaxy. The term is less specific than Near-Human, which generally implies common biological ancestry with Humans.
Classification of a being as humanoid was not standardized or strict. Generally, it entailed having a basic anatomy or construction similar to Humans, that is, a central torso with a head on top, two arms symmetrically arranged on either side, and two legs symmetrically arranged below, providing an upright bipedal stance. Each arm ended in hands that had a variable number of fingers (used for grasping and moving objects), and each leg in feet (used for locomotion). A living humanoid's head had two eyes for sight, a nose for breathing and smelling, and a mouth for nutrition and communication; a mechanical humanoid would not require respiration or nutrition, and would have two photoreceptorsinstead of eyes. Humanoid species generally had sparse hair, mainly concentrated on the head or face.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Humanoid
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Humanoid/Legends

Yep. I wanted to ask what s the difference between humans and humanoids as well.

Snoke is a humanoid? That was confirmed somewhere?

IoJovi wrote:@CienaRee To be fair, prior to the PT, I wouldn't have thought Palpatine to be human either. Yet, we now know he was - he was just deformed from his little Force lightning accident with Mace Windu. I too, don't think Rax is actually Snoke, but there's still a high chance that Snoke is human, or at was at one time.

Snooke looks like he had a little accident of his own. That s way he is spending his days in pajamas.

Darth_Awakened wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

snufkin wrote:Isn't Rax the same character who was also tasked w/rounding up toddler Hux and making the "Empire needs children" comment. Would fit with targeting Ben in utero. Though is public knowledge who the (respectable public identity not secret evil identity) Leia's biological father was?

If something's going on there and either Rey gets dumped there into Unkar Plutt's workhouse/day care center or is born there, then they have to loop back somehow to Jakku in future installments (I just like the idea of Finn having the sick realization that he has to go back there a 3rd time).

@snufkin

Yes, Rax is the one who ordered Admiral Rae Sloane to retrieve Brendol and Armitage Hux and also made the "the Empire needs children" comment. (For those in this thread who haven't read the book, Sloane is a very intriguing character--she's definitely in the Ransolm Casterfo mold of truly believing what she and the Empire are doing is right, but she doesn't trust Rax at all. Sloane is definitely a (dark) gray character.)

spoiler:

At the time of Life Debt, Leia's birth father isn't public knowledge, although I believe that it's public knowledge that she was adopted by Bail and Breha Organa. Her father's identity isn't made public until Bloodline. However, with the way that they've characterized Rax, I wouldn't be surprised if he knew through some avenue.

But even if Rax didn't know...perhaps there was a scenario where he targeted Ben for simply being Leia's kid and found out that Ben was Force sensitive later on, and that just turned out to be a bonus.

@ISeeAnIsland

Huh you were faster than me, just directly stealing one of my thoughts lol

I wanted to comment the fact that the news about Leia s being Vader s daughter broke 6 years prior to TFA (Bloodline).
In the book Leia was sure only Han and Luke knew the fact.
As per JJ: "Snoke knew this kid was going to be powerful in the Force"
I would say that Snoke should knew Ben s true identity as well.
And that fits in the theory Rax = Snoke. Because Rax was close to Palpatine, and Palpatine knew the truth (at least of Vader being Luke s father already after ESB)
Just speculating..

@Darth_Awakened

That's it! I'm pretty sure of it now. Even if Rax != Snoke, I get the impression that Rax was close enough to Palpatine that if Palpatine knew about Vader's kids, he very likely would have told Rax. So even if Rax is just some agent of Snoke's, that's how Snoke would know.

And yeah, I'm also pretty sure that there's some "man behind the curtain" trickery going on with Snoke's hologram, but I don't have any theories behind who he really is/what he really looks like. The parallels with Rax are striking--I just can't see them introducing Snoke's true identity in a book.

@ISeeAnIsland that's it, isn't it!!! They are not going to give away that big of a spoiler in a book that 95℅ of the audience won't read. I'm sure the character was designed to spur speculation in that direction just like Reywalker, but nothing more...

That's it! I'm pretty sure of it now. Even if Rax != Snoke, I get the impression that Rax was close enough to Palpatine that if Palpatine knew about Vader's kids, he very likely would have told Rax. So even if Rax is just some agent of Snoke's, that's how Snoke would know.

Works for me! Maybe I read through it too fast, but I got the impression that people knew that L&L were biological siblings/fraternal twins. Just not the full details of their biological parentage. Did I imagine that detail? Because if that were the case, then if Luke is superpowerful, it would stand Leia being his biological sister and being pregnant would mean that her kid/his nephew had a good chance of also having that trait. To go with the Bloodline theme.

snufkin wrote:

That's it! I'm pretty sure of it now. Even if Rax != Snoke, I get the impression that Rax was close enough to Palpatine that if Palpatine knew about Vader's kids, he very likely would have told Rax. So even if Rax is just some agent of Snoke's, that's how Snoke would know.

Works for me! Maybe I read through it too fast, but I got the impression that people knew that L&L were biological siblings/fraternal twins. Just not the full details of their biological parentage. Did I imagine that detail? Because if that were the case, then if Luke is superpowerful, it would stand Leia being his biological sister and being pregnant would mean that her kid/his nephew had a good chance of also having that trait. To go with the Bloodline theme.

@snufkin

You got the right impression. People knew that they were siblings. The fact that nobody expect for few persons did not know was that Darth Vader was a Jedi knight Anakin Skywalker and that he had children.

Has this been mentioned before? I just saw someone tweet about it...

In Rey's Survival Guide it says there's a legend on Jakku that the command deck of the Ravager - Rax's ship - is intact under the sand. Hmm.

Anyone got a copy of Rey's survival guide? I didn't realise Rax had been referred to before outside of the Aftermath series.

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:Has this been mentioned before? I just saw someone tweet about it...

In Rey's Survival Guide it says there's a legend on Jakku that the command deck of the Ravager - Rax's ship - is intact under the sand. Hmm.

Anyone got a copy of Rey's survival guide? I didn't realise Rax had been referred to before outside of the Aftermath series.

@Mrs Ben Solo

@panki or @cienaree might know. That would be interesting. Thanks for bringing this up. :-)

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:Has this been mentioned before? I just saw someone tweet about it...

In Rey's Survival Guide it says there's a legend on Jakku that the command deck of the Ravager - Rax's ship - is intact under the sand. Hmm.

Anyone got a copy of Rey's survival guide? I didn't realise Rax had been referred to before outside of the Aftermath series.

@Mrs Ben Solo

Very interesting. I hadn't realized that Rax had been referred to outside of Aftermath, either.

I don't have Rey's Survival Guide, though.