The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Piper Maru wrote:

SanghaRen wrote:

Piper Maru wrote:The problem with Ben's fall is that the wording used in TFA to describe it is very open to interpretation. He is a boy who destroyed everything. Okay, but "destroy" can mean a hundred things depending of the context. They could've flat out said that he killed everyone because he wanted to, but they didn't.

@Piper Maru

At the same time it's Han telling this to strangers. As a father I am not sure he can fully acknowledge that his son has killed Luke's students and has difficulties pronouncing the word "kill", the same way he says "a boy" and not a young man because it's his son no matter what. I'd say that you can tell this scene was written by fathers and Han is played by a father. A lot of fatherly weariness in that scene.

I am also inclined to believe that Ben really killed them and it's the circumstances that will be surprising. But yeah, nothing's set in stone.

@SanghaRen

I see your point and I agree about the fatherly weariness, but we need to take into consideration that this is a fictional work. The words are there because a writer choose them. Kasdan & J.J. opted for "destroy" instead of "killed" to enhance the mystery and keep people wondering. Why? Because the first thing everyone thought when Han told the story was Anakin 2.0 killing padawans. It's not going to follow this route because that's what they want you to believe.

Piper Maru wrote:

SanghaRen wrote:

Piper Maru wrote:The problem with Ben's fall is that the wording used in TFA to describe it is very open to interpretation. He is a boy who destroyed everything. Okay, but "destroy" can mean a hundred things depending of the context. They could've flat out said that he killed everyone because he wanted to, but they didn't.

@Piper Maru

At the same time it's Han telling this to strangers. As a father I am not sure he can fully acknowledge that his son has killed Luke's students and has difficulties pronouncing the word "kill", the same way he says "a boy" and not a young man because it's his son no matter what. I'd say that you can tell this scene was written by fathers and Han is played by a father. A lot of fatherly weariness in that scene.

I am also inclined to believe that Ben really killed them and it's the circumstances that will be surprising. But yeah, nothing's set in stone.

@SanghaRen

I see your point and I agree about the fatherly weariness, but we need to take into consideration that this is a fictional work. The words are there because a writer choose them. Kasdan & J.J. opted for "destroy" instead of "killed" to enhance the mystery and keep people wondering. Why? Because the first thing everyone thought when Han told the story was Anakin 2.0 killing padawans. It's not going to follow this route because that's what they want you to believe.

In an editorial, Adam Postans said, “it is frankly nauseating that the [BBC] should now get on their sci-fi high horse and gallop into Right-Onsville to plonk a woman sheriff in town.” He went on to call Whittaker’s casting a pure publicity move. To his logic, since Carrie Fisher played Princess Leia and Daisy Ridley played Rey in the “Star Wars” franchise, the casting could be reduced to ” self-important virtue signalling.”

He’s entitled to that opinion, however shaky it may be.

More unnecessary is the Sun’s publishing of nude images of Whittaker from her past roles under the headline “Dalektable” with a mention of Whittaker’s “saucy screen past.” A similar article on the Mail Online — a competing publication — offered more nude photos under the headline “Doctor Nude!” alongside nude and topless images of past, male Doctors. The Daily Mirror, Daily Express and Daily Star all offered up similar images (we aren’t linking to any of them).

reylo1992 wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:Meanwhile, what's the deal with Luke - many theories regarding Snoke yet rumours are Luke is the 'big bad' of TLJ.

@motherofpearl1

I must admit that I don't know really what to expect with Luke because having him as Luke as the Bid Bad to make his nephew more worth of the redemption to the audience, well...

I can hardly imagine that Luke would have been so creepy to corrupt his nephew from the whomb and behaving with him like a jealous lover. If so, it would be super creepy and disgusting in a children movie. Providing that Rian got a little inspiration from Little Red Riding Hood, maybe we could try to find out:
- Who is Little Red Riding Hood?
- Who is the Wolf?
- Who is the Grandmother?
- Who is the Hunter?
Rey was described by Daisy as the Little Red Riding Hood. Aside from the aspect of woman (sexual) awakening, I don't know what makes her the Little Red Riding Hood. Maybe her innocence: the fact that she is still childish and naive in some way, believing that Luke is a myth, believing that Finn is a Resistant, having some simplistic vision of the world (DS = evil; LS = good), etc...

Now, Little Red Riding Hood is about a girl and her grandma who end up both  eaten by the wolf. They only are set free after the Hunter kills the Wolf and opens his belly. As I hardly imagine Rey ending up in some passive state by the end of TLJ, I rather see her getting the role of the Hunter. So maybe that both Luke and Ben are respectively the Grandma and LRRH and end up respectively incapacitated and possessed by Snoke,  which make sense with that poster

J.J.Abrams always stressed how much Luke represented a problem in the storyline. He was frustrated not to have given him more scenes but also admitted Luke's presence would have killed the TFA story because everyone's attention would  have focused on him.

Providing that this Leia/Rey's scene takes place by the very end, it really seems that Leia is all alone although Luke and her are supposed to be reunited at some point of the movie. So my guess is that either Luke was Snoke from the beginning - but then the SW must explain me why the uncle behaves so inappropriately possessive with his nephew - or Luke will end up incapacitated by Snoke maybe as somefailed sacrifice to save his nephew Because if Luke was Snoke, I don't understand why he would ask Rey to kill Kylo: maybe thathe asks her to do that because he can't bring himself to kill his nephew but knows that this must be done to prevent Snoke from getting what he wants.

And by the way, here some other details about Snoke's inappropriate possessiveness toward Kylo:

1) Kylo's birth name

The guy is ready to make a decree preventing anyone from pronouncing Kylo Ren's birth name  Seriously Snoke, what is my sentence if pronounce his birth name Don't you have anything more important to do than publishing a special decree for that??? I mean, that seems so exaggerated to make such a law. We may assume that Ben either doesn't have the right to let his birth name known. Gosh! If there is neither overprotective nor possessive behavior there from Snoke,I don't know what it is...

2) Kylo's mask
Another thing that bothers me about Snoke and Kylo. We know that Ben doesn't seem to be very comfortable in showing his face. I had always assumed that he hid his face on his own as some aspect of his admiration for his grandfather. However, there is something that strikes me, especially about these scenes:
In the first Snoke scene, both Hux and Kylo are in front of Snoke. Kylo has his mask on and doesn't say a word until Snoke invites him to do so.

However, we know that Adam Driver shot the next scene between Kylo and Snoke without the mask. So could it imply that the audience was supposed to discover his face for the first time during this scene, because Snoke asked him to remove his mask

If so, this is an important detail. It means that Kylo was meant to remove his mask first for Snoke, then for Rey and finally for his father. And obviously Snoke would have asked him to do so only when they were all alone after Hux left. I can't imagine that J.J.Abrams would have introduced unmasked Kylo Ren as Snoke spoke to both him and Hux. The removal of the mask was too important to be just a small detail. So this leads me to assume that this was meant originally to stress the intimacy of their relationship especially if J.J.Abrams would have inserted the dialogue that follows in the novel with Snoke having some kind of inappropriate "bedroom" voice there.
Later, we get this scene when they're alone together in the room and Snoke is upset that Kylo has compassion for the girl. Interestingly, Kylo doesn't have his mask there as he is alone with Snoke. We may think from the interrogation scene. that he simply went straight to Snoke to ask for help without taking his mask on.  

However, the novel makes things very clear:
He moved to leave and, at the last moment, gestured powerfully in her direction. The restraints that had held her wrists snapped back into place, once again securing her to the inclined platform. Then he once again donned his mask and was gone.

In the corridor, a stunned Ren found that he was breathing hard. That in itself was insettling. He did not know what had just transpired in the holding cell and, not knowing, was left uncertain how to proceed. He was spared further bewilderment when a trooper appeared, coming toward him. Straightening, Ren gathered himself.

The trooper halted. His evident discomfort at having to speak to Ren bolstered his superior’s shaken persona.

“Sir! The Supreme Leader has requested your presence.”

So the novel confirms that Kylo Ren took his mask on before leaving the interrogation room and that Snoke requested his presence at this moment. As Snoke knows Ben like anyone, I guess that he must have felt that something unusual was happening in the interrogation room. I guess that he knows that no one can resist Kylo's mind probe and that he is aware that if  Kylo had really wanted to get the map, he would have got it no matter if it hurt Rey or not. So I assume that Snoke is the one who asked Kylo to remove his mask for him while entering alone in the room. There, there is the strange parallel with the first scene where Hux is there from the beginning and leaves Snoke and Kylo (with his mask on) all alone. In that scene, he shows up unexpectedly while Snoke and Kylo (with his mask off) are all alone sort of couple-fighting  Kylo's reaction is so interesting there. I mean, he can't bring himself to look at Hux in the eyes as if it was forbidden where he had absolutely no problem as he had his mask on.And once again, he diesn't dare to intervene as Snoke and Hux are talking:

What this tells me is that for many years Kylo had shown his face to anyone except when he is all alone with Snoke and the mask removal is apparently a request from Snoke himself. I don't know what's your feeling about it but something tells me that Snoke is clearly behind the fact that Kylo wears his mask everywhere except in front of him. Something tells me that this is Snoke's will to have Kylo covering himself from head to toe to make hide both his humanity and his appeal. I really don't know if I am right to make such parallel and of course I don't intend to be disrespectful toward some cultural/religious practices but Kylo's costume reminds me a lot of a burqa:


Once again, I insist that I don't mean to disrespect cultural/religious practices because I don't know enough about it to say if it is good and bad. However,  I think that Star Wars definitely conveys some occidental point of view of what individual and collective liberty means. From a French point of view at least, to have someone covered from head to toe in public space may be interpreted as something dehumanizing and submissive.

On a more personal level, my grandmatold me once that she had a very beautiful cousin who was married to a man who was incredibly overprotective, possessive and jealous. She was so beautiful that her husband didn't want her to go alone outside because he feared that other men would courtship her. So when he wasn't at home, he locked her in the house and she tried to escape by the windows. That sounds unbelievable but I think that it describes quite well how far an abusive relationship can go. If Snoke is ready to make a decree forbidding to pronounce Kylo's birth name, I can imagine that he doesn't want his "pure, strong, unbreakable" material to be seen by anyone else than him and even less having someone else finding him appealing, uh


3) Invading personal space
With all that stuff, I must say that I am eager to see Kylo and Snoke interacting face-to-face in TLJ. We know that Snoke was always present in Ben's life and that he's become the most important person in his life through the years. We also know from the interrogation scene that Kylo obviously doesn't know how to behave with the girl. Honestly, I can understand that some people found the scene disturbing, getting the sensation that Kylo was gonna rape Rey even if he behave more gently with her than with Poe. I mean, both in the movie and the novel there are some lines...you just ask yourself where Kylo took them because they sound pretty creepy in this context.

From the movie:

"You know I can take whatever I want"

From the novel:

"I know you've seen the map!, he repeated. "It's what I need. At the moment, it is all what I need"

When she maintained her silence, he almost sighed.

"I can take whatever I want"

[...]

True. He rose resigned. "I would have preferred to avoid this. Despite what you may believe, it gives me no pleasure. I will go as easily go as easily as possible but I will take what I need"

I mean, where the hell did Kylo learn to behave so gentle and creepy at the same time if not from Snoke himself who has been using both the carrot and the stick for years to get what he wanted from him And all this repetitive vocabulary about taking what he needs/wants. Plus the way he can't help but invading personal space as if it was completely natural for him. I guess that it comes from someone else

"And you promised me when it came to destroying the Resistance, you wouldn't fail me!"

The threatening figure of Snoke leaned toward Ren

Seriously, I expect Snoke invading Kylo's personal space in some  way in TLJ because it wouldn't be the first time in a Disney movie





BONUS: Kylo trying to "reassure" Snoke about his allegiance to him only

“I am immune to the light,” Ren assured him confidently. “By the grace of your training, I will not be seduced.” ==> Don't worry sweetheart, I won't be seduced by someone else than you

[...]

The elements align, Kylo Ren. You alone are caught in the winds of the storm. Your bond is not just to Vader, but to Skywalker himself. Leia…”

“There is no need for concern.”

[...]

Ren considered his reply carefully. “It does not matter. He means nothing to me. My allegiance is with you. No one will stand in our way.”

Snoke nodded. “We shall see. We shall see.”

It was a dismissal. Turning, wholly preoccupied now, Ren followed General Hux in exiting the vast chamber.

[...]

There was as much curiosity in Supreme Leader Snoke’s voice as there was disappointment. “This scavenger—this girl—resisted you?”

“That’s all she is, yes. A scavenger from that inconsequential Jakku. Completely untrained, but strong with the Force. Stronger than she knows.” His mask off, Ren replied with what seemed to be his usual assurance. No one else would have sensed a difference. Snoke did.

The Supreme Leader’s voice was flat. “You have compassion for her.”

“No—never. Compassion? For an enemy of the Order?”

“I perceive the problem,” Snoke intoned. “It isn’t her strength that is making you fail. It’s your weakness.” The rebuke hurt, but Ren didn’t show it.

From Kylo's side, we get: there is no need for concern regarding my bonds to Vader, Luke, Leia; Han means to me; the girl is just a scavenger from that inconsequential Jakku; I would never have compassion for any ennemy of the FO; My allegiance is only to you.
==> Snoke's dismissive behavior makes Kylo feel: preoccupied; hurt; etc...

From Snoke's side, we get: I never had such a promising student -before you; I have - you; You are pure, strong, unbreakable, a masterpiece; We shall see if your allegiance is with me; You promised me that you wouldn't fail me!
==> Kylo's unusual behavior makes Snoke feel: curious, disappointed, flat,etc...

It's just me or ADF ships Snylo  

My favorite part   When Kylo tries hard to reassure Snoke by implying that he has no interest in the girl  because she's just a scavenger - not a dame from the  rich assholes society of Canto Bright, uh -  coming from an inconsequential planet ... and then saying that she resisted his probe only because she is strong with the Force. Nice try buddy! But not enough to avoid the domestic fight  

EDIT: Wait a minute... Just realize while reading that text in detail...

So it begins with Snoke aknowledging that there has been an awakening in the Force. Then it is clearly written that Kylo would have an important part to play in the coming conflict. Maybe it is only related to his role in getting the map but something tells me that it has more to do with something bigger than this and that the line actually reflects Snoke's own mind. And finally Snoke says "you will face a test first". Ok, Snoke! And what do you plan to do next with Kylo as "important part to play in the conflict" once your test is done

Moonlight13 wrote:Guys, I didn't know where to post this but I made a little experiment: I showed my mom (who doesn't know anything about Star Wars, not even about the "I am your father" moment   ) The Last Jedi poster and I asked for her opinion on the expression of the faces. The first thing she said was: the one on the right (Kylo) looks sad and the one on the left (Luke) looks angry. Then she added that Kylo looks "like a sad child" and Luke resembles God (she was refering to the God of the Old Testament with a very serious expression).

bashfulblueeyes3 wrote:Random question. Does anyone know how long the TLJ is and the rating? PG or PG-13?

bashfulblueeyes3 wrote:Random question.  Does anyone know how long the TLJ is and the rating?  PG or PG-13?  

MeadowofAshes wrote:*crosses fingers for "A brief moment of sensuality" in the rating specs.* 

Helix wrote:

MeadowofAshes wrote:*crosses fingers for "A brief moment of sensuality" in the rating specs.* 

@MeadowofAshes

Chewie and Luke are really gonna have a moment...

MeadowofAshes wrote:*crosses fingers for "A brief moment of sensuality" in the rating specs.* 

motherofpearl1 wrote:It's Adam's lips....
And let's face it, why is he buffed up if we aren't going to see him at least topless? Let Rey see how far that scar goes....

SoloSideCousin wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:It's Adam's lips....
And let's face it, why is he buffed up if we aren't going to see him at least topless? Let Rey see how far that scar goes....

@motherofpearl1

Oh I think that there was a Matt Martin tweet recently rhat basically said shirtlessness was going to happen. I can't screencap tweets, but Matt Martin put up a professional photograph of Adam in jeans and shirtless, lol.

SoloSideCousin wrote:Here, I found it. Maybe he's kidding, but it is quite the shirtless picture.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Paranalunia/status/880729220846059525

“Fifty percent of our executive team are women. Six out of eight of the people in my Story Group are women. I think it’s making a huge difference in the kind of stories we’re trying to tell,” Kennedy told Fortune back in 2015. “I'm confident we will eventually hire a woman who directs a Star Wars movie.” As of right now, all of the directors hired for the new movies have been white men.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:I couldn't recall which thread the original article was posted in, but I finally had a chance to read the "Church Divided" article on Star Wars fandom that @snufkin posted the other day (and that got likely buried in all of the new spoiler talk). It's definitely worth a read, and I found a few things that I don't recall having seen discussed yet:

http://www.denofgeek.com/us/movies/star-wars/266376/the-church-of-star-wars-exploring-the-light-dark-sides-of-fandom

“Fifty percent of our executive team are women. Six out of eight of the people in my Story Group are women. I think it’s making a huge difference in the kind of stories we’re trying to tell,” Kennedy told Fortune back in 2015. “I'm confident we will eventually hire a woman who directs a Star Wars movie.” As of right now, all of the directors hired for the new movies have been white men.

Now, I know that Matt Martin was hired after 2015, but I hadn't realized that the story group ratio was that heavily female. Even if the group is now 6 out of 9 female, it makes a ton of sense why Matt and Pablo (who have no interest in romance) probably aren't handling that aspect of the various Star Wars productions.