The Last Jedi: General Discussion

snufkin wrote:IDK if the production team has outright mentioned The Searchers as an influence on TLJ, but it's there in the trailer shot of Luke in sileoutee in the doorway, like the shot of Ethan at the end. The Searchers is one of the central movies George Lucas outright referenced for the first movie (Burning Homestead) and in AotC. And John Ford was a major influence/personal hero of one of the other directors the franchise continually riffs on, Akira Kurosawa. So it's in the franchise's DNA and that shot alone in the trailer is enough to get you thinking that they may do something with Luke and Ben a la Ethan and Debbie.

Persephone wrote:

reylo1992 wrote:

MeadowofAshes wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:

MeadowofAshes wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:Rey's grown up in so many ways. She's accepted that the future means more than the past; she knows she's much more than a scavenger from Jakku, and she's found a family.

BUT.....regarding her 'family'...if Finn has Rose, something happens to Leia and Luke isn't what she expects what then?
It's crazy but I wonder if one of the reasons Rose's character was introduced is because Rey finds herself alone again..........like someone else.

@motherofpearl1
Which would make a joining of forces between the two at the end make sense. Ben and Rey are the outsiders, and the characters who are presented as two sides of the same coin. If Rey has her expectations of family upturned and Ben no longer fits with the FO but can't yet come home due to his crimes, they're going to need each other. The two fighting multiple guys with sticks is rather telling, IMO. But if I go further, I'm afraid I'll get carried away in headcanon, lol. I'm hoping for a surprise mid-battle heat of the moment kiss, but don't want to call that yet. Joining forces against a common enemy is what I'm comfortable saying is likely based on what we've got.

@MeadowofAshes

Yes, and I'm pretty sure that is what's going to happen.

I had this weird feeling watching Rey 'looking up' at Leia..that she's confronting her about Ben Solo's 'abandonment', hence Leia's grim look.

I think both Rey and Kylo are going to find their gods have feet of clay.

@motherofpearl1


[size=50]Yes. I wonder if even Leia's faith in Ben's light is shaken at that point, maybe even warning her that she believed her son was still light and was wrong. But Rey insists that's not the case, now alienating herself from Leia. And with that said... We had the rumor Rey ends up in captivity at the end and the statement from Daisy Rey will be emotionally hurt. This is total conjecture but Ben and Rey taking on Praetorian guards leading to Snoke only to have Ben (seemingly) turn her over to him is a possibility. It's like Snape killing Dumbledore after Rowling built up his sympathetic backstory. It risks the audience hating his guts between TLJ and IX, but it would be a bold move and a definite cliffhanger.[/size]

@MeadowofAshes

Hmm...I don't believe it would be the case. Like I wrote in one of my previous posts, I believe that this scene rather occurs by the very end of the movie because Leia looks so solitary and grim like someone who has lost everything. Plus, I indeed that Rey is neither gonna turn turn to the DS nor end up prisoner or in some near-death state. Her character was obviously not written to end up in some passive state, waiting that someone comes to deliver her.

So that's why I tend to much to believe that something terrible will most likely happen to Ben. However, I don't believe in the scenario of Ben turning good and then turning bad again because committing treason would make him only pitiful to the audience. I believe that the best way  have the audience feeling complete empathy with him is to have him becoming the FO's super weapon against his own will. The poster refers him as "the Lost" which is extremely ambiguous: lost in the sense of emotionally lost lost in the sense of not to be redeemed because of his crime or lost in the sense that he may end up in some near-death state forever

Leia already experienced the painful feeling to have her son committing a patricide in TFA although she thought he had still light What could be more tragic for her than having her son coming back to the light but ending up sort of lost forever because Snoke ultimately got what he wanted from him

Of cours, all these assumption are based on my theory that we will get some kind of Atlantis scenario in TLJ with Ben as Kida, being used by Snoke and the FO to get some super weapon. The fact is that the FO obviously used the money of some rich assholes of Canto Bright to build their weapon SKB to control the galaxy. Unfortunately, the SKB was destroyed, which means that the money that the rich a** gave to finance the FO was spent for nothing since SKB was used only once to destroy Hosnian Prime. So we may assume that the rich a** ain't gonna spend their money in financing another SKB. I already pointed out that the screenwriters introduced some continuity between the weapon of mass destruction: Death Star I, Death Star II, SKB. They are all terrific weapons but all got destroyed because they all had a weak point. So I guess that the FO will try to have another weapon of mass destruction but won't spend so many years constructing a weapon that would have a weak point - especially if the rich a** ain't ready to pay again for that.

So let's assume what's the point to have Snoke and the FO sending Hux there. We know that Snoke - like the rich a** - is very bling-bling. He obviously like luxurious objects and we know that he'll need this super weapon of mass destruction. We also know that he needs for some reason the financial support of the rich assholes to finance the FO activities. And we know that Crait will be the centerpiece of the battle between the FO and the Resistance and have a key role in the movie. I had never heard about Crait before because I missed the whole story during my absence of the forum.

However, we know that Crait is some salty planet whose underground is made is...red ores

We know from Rian that he got some inspiration from Letter Never Sent where geologists are sent to find diamonds for the Soviet Government in order to finance some weapon. Plus, providing that he got some inspiration from the Atlantis scenario, we have some potential scenario about mercenaries who are ready to make money with the Atlantis cristal - a living source of power - no matter that it endangers the survival of an entire civilization. Finally, we know from RO that the Empire used kyber cristal to power Death Star I and Death II and then that the FO used the power of the Sun to power SKB. Then, what do they need to use as the next source of power of the new weapon of mass destruction if not something "pure, strong, unbreakable" like Snoke says in TFA:?:

I find the absence of Snoke in the promotional process extremely suspicious unless it appears that he is indeed either Luke or Kylo himself for some weird reason. Plus, we are told a lot about Luke and Rey's relationship but few about Snoke and Ben's relationship. Personally, I can't imagine that Snoke has been working so hard with Ben from the whomb just to decide that he isn't worth of his attention anymore.

At a first sight, Snoke seems to represent for Kylo what Palpatine represented for Anakin: a father figure. However, I feel that their dynamic is different. Although Anakin was manipulated from a young age, Palpatine only played the role of some kind, wise but machiavelic father figure watching over him from distance. Anakin grew up with a loving motheraway from his influence in hisearly years, then developed some special bond with Obi-Wan during his Padawan training and finally found love with Padme as a Jedi Knight. Palpatine never ever considered these bonds like a threat even later when it came to Luke's compassion with his father. He always tried to manipulate relationships to his advantage but never tried to prevent emotional bonds to develop. If I should describe Palpatine and Anakin's relationship in one word, I would chose "paternalism".

However things appear completely different in regard to Snoke and Kylo's relationship. We know from the novel Aftermath that Snoke had been watching Ben even before that child was born. I don't know who is Snoke but I was always intrigued by this passage of the novel where Leia sits next to a potted flower from Endor, tries to reach out to the plant and suddently feels some dark presence within her. I have always wondered if there wasn't some callback to E.T. the Extraterrestrial there. We know from Pablo that even if Snoke is an humanoid, he is no human. He indeed looks very much like an alien. Plus, it was revealed by Spielberg that E.T. is actually a plant. We also know that Rey was supposed to see a boy accompanied with Snoke during her vision. In E.T., we get a lonely boy - hurt by the failure of his parent's marriage - who finds in an alien his only friend and develops an unexpected strong bond with him. E.T. and Elliott become at some point so bonded that their lives become interdependant as if they were one. That's why, I believe Snoke to represent much more to Ben than a father figure because he's probably become the most important part of his life in 30 years, the person who knows him the most :

"When next Snoke spoke there was an intimacy in his voice, a familiarity that stood in sharp contrast with the commanding tone he had used with Hux"

However, Snoke represents for Ben what some dark version of E.T. could have represented for Elliott: a toxic, possessive and exclusive friend. When I once mentioned Sben/Snylo for fun, some part of me was serious there. Perhaps I am wrong to think that but it seems to me that Snoke behaves with Ben like a possessive lover/friend would do. Their relationship ain't based on paternalism (like Palpatine and Anakin) but on possessiveness.

That's why, I believe that Snoke will do anything to possess Kylo at all costs and the way he talks to him is somehow...inappropriate

The way he describes their relationship in the TFA novel is extremely telling and disturbing: he considers himself like a sculptor who is working with the finest material. A few weeks ago, I watched the movie Rodin: it took 30 years for the scuptor Auguste Rodin to achieve his masterpiece called The Gates of Hell! It required time and patience to work with the material and achieved what he wanted to do with it:


So I guess that like any artist, Sboke considers the material and the product of his work as his property. That's why I can't believe that Snoke would let Ben go that easily: he has been working for thirty years so hard with that child as a material to achieve a masterpiece. And we know from Andy Serkis himself that Snoke has a huge agenda but that this agenda is limited by his vulnerability.

To me, it is obvious that Snoke needs Ben for very specific goal and that he is using him to achieve it. Plus, the way he is talking to him sounds to me like a sculptor who is praising his muse if not the way a guy telling a girl how much he is in love with her. I mean one could easily replace some lines of their dialogue with the lines of a guy courting a girl by telling her how beautiful and precious she is to him:
"I have never had a student with such promise - before you" sounds a little like "I have never met a girl like you before"
"I have - you" sounds a little like "you're mine" or "you belong to me"
Even the way ADF stresses before you and you with th hyphen sign looks so disturbing. Really gets the sensation to read something innaprorpriate, way too intimate.

The next passage is even worse when I think about it. Snoke's reaction to Kylo's compassion for Rey looks so similar to a jealous lover:

There was as much curiosity in Supreme Leader Snoke’s voice as there was disappointment.

“This scavenger—this girl—resisted you?”

I mean, there are two things so odd there. Why does Snoke need to stress Rey's gender telling this scavenger - this girl - as if it was an important detail for him. Plus what for is he disappointed by Kylo? Certainly not disappointed that Kylo  didn't get the map from her : he doesn't  even mention the map in the dialogue:suspect: My feeling is that he is disappointed by the reason why Kylo didn't get the map because he goes straight to this point:

Supreme Leader’s voice was flat. “You have compassion for her.”

Obviously Snoke doesn't care about the Rey's Force power. He even doesn't care about the map at this moment. He is concerned that Kylo feels compassion for her, that he may have feeling for her. Even the use of the word "flat" to describe his tone sounds so weird. I mean, this sounds like the reaction of someone who is upset that the person he "cares" has feeling for another, right   Then, we are reminded that their relationship is somehow intimate: Snoke knows all about Kylo since it is stressed that nobody else would have perceived what he perceives. And then, we are told how Kylo feels about Snoke's rebuke.

No one else would have sensed a difference. Snoke did.

“No—never. Compassion? For an enemy of the Order?”

“I perceive the problem,” Snoke intoned. “It isn’t her strength that is making you fail. It’s your weakness.” The rebuke hurt, but Ren didn’t show it.

And then the best for the end:

"And you promised me when it came to destroying the Resistance you wouldn't fail me."

[...]

"Kylo Ren, it appears that a reminder is in order. So I will show you the dark side. Bring the girl to me."

Seriously: if Snoke doesn't behave with Kylo like a jealous lover, I don't know what it is. I mean, he could have told him: " You promised when it came to destroying the Resistance you wouldn't fail the FO". And yet, he reminds him that Kylo promised him he wouldn't fail him personally. That sounds so much like an outraged lover who is hurt because his partner didn't keep a promise   And finally, the outraged lover intends to punish his lover as well solve the problem: he asks Kylo to bring him the girl obviously for something else that for some interest in her powers as if he wanted to get rid of the potential rival.

Even if it wasn't in the movie, these lines are canon. What I believe is that Snoke won't get interested in making Rey an ally: he will probably see her as a big threat since she is what endangers his relationship and agenda with Kylo. She has already sort being set as his rival in TFA:


However, we know from the SW databank that Kylo's allegiance has already begun to change although he told Snoke in the novel that his allegiance was only to him (interestingly not to the FO). We also know from J.J. that Ben somehow knows that Snoke is using/abusing him. Plus, we have this shot that reminds me so much of Rapunzel's rebellion against Gothel:



So my feeling is that Ben will realize what Snoke agenda is for him and try to escape this abusive relationship. So I believe in a scenario where Ben will experience some liberty during TLJ - maybe leading him to turn clearly against the FO - but  Snoke -whoever or whatever it is - will claim Ben to be his property by the end and achieve with him what he intended to do for so long. So I believe in a big dramatic and dark scenario with Snoke (and the FO) ultimately possessing Ben against his own will, getting some living source of power as achievement of the huge agenda  and thus obtaining the weapon of mass destruction in the continuity of the Death Star and SKB... and the rich assholes getting a lot of red ores from the FO as a reward they  contributed the FO's victory on Crait and to ensure their further financial support

In this scenario, Leia would have all the reasons to feel destroyed and the audience to feel much empathy for Ben. And let's say it: Ben looks more than ever like a  some vulnerable Prince(ss) in distress needing to be saved from something whatever it is:

@reylo1992

I never thought about it this way :0 It makes complete sense! Poor Ben Remember when Adam was asked if Kylo Ren/Ben would survive Ep 8 and Adam responded: "If that's what you call living." It fits together. Ep 9 would then be Prince Rey saving Princess Ben from figurative and literal possesion/curse/coma
The love triangle is not between Finn, Kylo and Rey - it's between Snoke, Kylo and Rey.

motherofpearl1 wrote:

snufkin wrote:IDK if the production team has outright mentioned The Searchers as an influence on TLJ, but it's there in the trailer shot of Luke in sileoutee in the doorway, like the shot of Ethan at the end. The Searchers is one of the central movies George Lucas outright referenced for the first movie (Burning Homestead) and in AotC. And John Ford was a major influence/personal hero of one of the other directors the franchise continually riffs on, Akira Kurosawa. So it's in the franchise's DNA and that shot alone in the trailer is enough to get you thinking that they may do something with Luke and Ben a la Ethan and Debbie.

@snufkin

Persephone wrote:

reylo1992 wrote:

MeadowofAshes wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:

MeadowofAshes wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:Rey's grown up in so many ways. She's accepted that the future means more than the past; she knows she's much more than a scavenger from Jakku, and she's found a family.

BUT.....regarding her 'family'...if Finn has Rose, something happens to Leia and Luke isn't what she expects what then?
It's crazy but I wonder if one of the reasons Rose's character was introduced is because Rey finds herself alone again..........like someone else.

@motherofpearl1
Which would make a joining of forces between the two at the end make sense. Ben and Rey are the outsiders, and the characters who are presented as two sides of the same coin. If Rey has her expectations of family upturned and Ben no longer fits with the FO but can't yet come home due to his crimes, they're going to need each other. The two fighting multiple guys with sticks is rather telling, IMO. But if I go further, I'm afraid I'll get carried away in headcanon, lol. I'm hoping for a surprise mid-battle heat of the moment kiss, but don't want to call that yet. Joining forces against a common enemy is what I'm comfortable saying is likely based on what we've got.

@MeadowofAshes

Yes, and I'm pretty sure that is what's going to happen.

I had this weird feeling watching Rey 'looking up' at Leia..that she's confronting her about Ben Solo's 'abandonment', hence Leia's grim look.

I think both Rey and Kylo are going to find their gods have feet of clay.

@motherofpearl1


[size=50]Yes. I wonder if even Leia's faith in Ben's light is shaken at that point, maybe even warning her that she believed her son was still light and was wrong. But Rey insists that's not the case, now alienating herself from Leia. And with that said... We had the rumor Rey ends up in captivity at the end and the statement from Daisy Rey will be emotionally hurt. This is total conjecture but Ben and Rey taking on Praetorian guards leading to Snoke only to have Ben (seemingly) turn her over to him is a possibility. It's like Snape killing Dumbledore after Rowling built up his sympathetic backstory. It risks the audience hating his guts between TLJ and IX, but it would be a bold move and a definite cliffhanger.[/size]

@MeadowofAshes

Hmm...I don't believe it would be the case. Like I wrote in one of my previous posts, I believe that this scene rather occurs by the very end of the movie because Leia looks so solitary and grim like someone who has lost everything. Plus, I indeed that Rey is neither gonna turn turn to the DS nor end up prisoner or in some near-death state. Her character was obviously not written to end up in some passive state, waiting that someone comes to deliver her.

So that's why I tend to much to believe that something terrible will most likely happen to Ben. However, I don't believe in the scenario of Ben turning good and then turning bad again because committing treason would make him only pitiful to the audience. I believe that the best way  have the audience feeling complete empathy with him is to have him becoming the FO's super weapon against his own will. The poster refers him as "the Lost" which is extremely ambiguous: lost in the sense of emotionally lost lost in the sense of not to be redeemed because of his crime or lost in the sense that he may end up in some near-death state forever

Leia already experienced the painful feeling to have her son committing a patricide in TFA although she thought he had still light What could be more tragic for her than having her son coming back to the light but ending up sort of lost forever because Snoke ultimately got what he wanted from him

Of cours, all these assumption are based on my theory that we will get some kind of Atlantis scenario in TLJ with Ben as Kida, being used by Snoke and the FO to get some super weapon. The fact is that the FO obviously used the money of some rich assholes of Canto Bright to build their weapon SKB to control the galaxy. Unfortunately, the SKB was destroyed, which means that the money that the rich a** gave to finance the FO was spent for nothing since SKB was used only once to destroy Hosnian Prime. So we may assume that the rich a** ain't gonna spend their money in financing another SKB. I already pointed out that the screenwriters introduced some continuity between the weapon of mass destruction: Death Star I, Death Star II, SKB. They are all terrific weapons but all got destroyed because they all had a weak point. So I guess that the FO will try to have another weapon of mass destruction but won't spend so many years constructing a weapon that would have a weak point - especially if the rich a** ain't ready to pay again for that.

So let's assume what's the point to have Snoke and the FO sending Hux there. We know that Snoke - like the rich a** - is very bling-bling. He obviously like luxurious objects and we know that he'll need this super weapon of mass destruction. We also know that he needs for some reason the financial support of the rich assholes to finance the FO activities. And we know that Crait will be the centerpiece of the battle between the FO and the Resistance and have a key role in the movie. I had never heard about Crait before because I missed the whole story during my absence of the forum.

However, we know that Crait is some salty planet whose underground is made is...red ores

We know from Rian that he got some inspiration from Letter Never Sent where geologists are sent to find diamonds for the Soviet Government in order to finance some weapon. Plus, providing that he got some inspiration from the Atlantis scenario, we have some potential scenario about mercenaries who are ready to make money with the Atlantis cristal - a living source of power - no matter that it endangers the survival of an entire civilization. Finally, we know from RO that the Empire used kyber cristal to power Death Star I and Death II and then that the FO used the power of the Sun to power SKB. Then, what do they need to use as the next source of power of the new weapon of mass destruction if not something "pure, strong, unbreakable" like Snoke says in TFA:?:

I find the absence of Snoke in the promotional process extremely suspicious unless it appears that he is indeed either Luke or Kylo himself for some weird reason. Plus, we are told a lot about Luke and Rey's relationship but few about Snoke and Ben's relationship. Personally, I can't imagine that Snoke has been working so hard with Ben from the whomb just to decide that he isn't worth of his attention anymore.

At a first sight, Snoke seems to represent for Kylo what Palpatine represented for Anakin: a father figure. However, I feel that their dynamic is different. Although Anakin was manipulated from a young age, Palpatine only played the role of some kind, wise but machiavelic father figure watching over him from distance. Anakin grew up with a loving motheraway from his influence in hisearly years, then developed some special bond with Obi-Wan during his Padawan training and finally found love with Padme as a Jedi Knight. Palpatine never ever considered these bonds like a threat even later when it came to Luke's compassion with his father. He always tried to manipulate relationships to his advantage but never tried to prevent emotional bonds to develop. If I should describe Palpatine and Anakin's relationship in one word, I would chose "paternalism".

However things appear completely different in regard to Snoke and Kylo's relationship. We know from the novel Aftermath that Snoke had been watching Ben even before that child was born. I don't know who is Snoke but I was always intrigued by this passage of the novel where Leia sits next to a potted flower from Endor, tries to reach out to the plant and suddently feels some dark presence within her. I have always wondered if there wasn't some callback to E.T. the Extraterrestrial there. We know from Pablo that even if Snoke is an humanoid, he is no human. He indeed looks very much like an alien. Plus, it was revealed by Spielberg that E.T. is actually a plant. We also know that Rey was supposed to see a boy accompanied with Snoke during her vision. In E.T., we get a lonely boy - hurt by the failure of his parent's marriage - who finds in an alien his only friend and develops an unexpected strong bond with him. E.T. and Elliott become at some point so bonded that their lives become interdependant as if they were one. That's why, I believe Snoke to represent much more to Ben than a father figure because he's probably become the most important part of his life in 30 years, the person who knows him the most :

"When next Snoke spoke there was an intimacy in his voice, a familiarity that stood in sharp contrast with the commanding tone he had used with Hux"

However, Snoke represents for Ben what some dark version of E.T. could have represented for Elliott: a toxic, possessive and exclusive friend. When I once mentioned Sben/Snylo for fun, some part of me was serious there. Perhaps I am wrong to think that but it seems to me that Snoke behaves with Ben like a possessive lover/friend would do. Their relationship ain't based on paternalism (like Palpatine and Anakin) but on possessiveness.

That's why, I believe that Snoke will do anything to possess Kylo at all costs and the way he talks to him is somehow...inappropriate

The way he describes their relationship in the TFA novel is extremely telling and disturbing: he considers himself like a sculptor who is working with the finest material. A few weeks ago, I watched the movie Rodin: it took 30 years for the scuptor Auguste Rodin to achieve his masterpiece called The Gates of Hell! It required time and patience to work with the material and achieved what he wanted to do with it:


So I guess that like any artist, Sboke considers the material and the product of his work as his property. That's why I can't believe that Snoke would let Ben go that easily: he has been working for thirty years so hard with that child as a material to achieve a masterpiece. And we know from Andy Serkis himself that Snoke has a huge agenda but that this agenda is limited by his vulnerability.

To me, it is obvious that Snoke needs Ben for very specific goal and that he is using him to achieve it. Plus, the way he is talking to him sounds to me like a sculptor who is praising his muse if not the way a guy telling a girl how much he is in love with her. I mean one could easily replace some lines of their dialogue with the lines of a guy courting a girl by telling her how beautiful and precious she is to him:
"I have never had a student with such promise - before you" sounds a little like "I have never met a girl like you before"
"I have - you" sounds a little like "you're mine" or "you belong to me"
Even the way ADF stresses before you and you with th hyphen sign looks so disturbing. Really gets the sensation to read something innaprorpriate, way too intimate.

The next passage is even worse when I think about it. Snoke's reaction to Kylo's compassion for Rey looks so similar to a jealous lover:

There was as much curiosity in Supreme Leader Snoke’s voice as there was disappointment.

“This scavenger—this girl—resisted you?”

I mean, there are two things so odd there. Why does Snoke need to stress Rey's gender telling this scavenger - this girl - as if it was an important detail for him. Plus what for is he disappointed by Kylo? Certainly not disappointed that Kylo  didn't get the map from her : he doesn't  even mention the map in the dialogue:suspect: My feeling is that he is disappointed by the reason why Kylo didn't get the map because he goes straight to this point:

Supreme Leader’s voice was flat. “You have compassion for her.”

Obviously Snoke doesn't care about the Rey's Force power. He even doesn't care about the map at this moment. He is concerned that Kylo feels compassion for her, that he may have feeling for her. Even the use of the word "flat" to describe his tone sounds so weird. I mean, this sounds like the reaction of someone who is upset that the person he "cares" has feeling for another, right   Then, we are reminded that their relationship is somehow intimate: Snoke knows all about Kylo since it is stressed that nobody else would have perceived what he perceives. And then, we are told how Kylo feels about Snoke's rebuke.

No one else would have sensed a difference. Snoke did.

“No—never. Compassion? For an enemy of the Order?”

“I perceive the problem,” Snoke intoned. “It isn’t her strength that is making you fail. It’s your weakness.” The rebuke hurt, but Ren didn’t show it.

And then the best for the end:

"And you promised me when it came to destroying the Resistance you wouldn't fail me."

[...]

"Kylo Ren, it appears that a reminder is in order. So I will show you the dark side. Bring the girl to me."

Seriously: if Snoke doesn't behave with Kylo like a jealous lover, I don't know what it is. I mean, he could have told him: " You promised when it came to destroying the Resistance you wouldn't fail the FO". And yet, he reminds him that Kylo promised him he wouldn't fail him personally. That sounds so much like an outraged lover who is hurt because his partner didn't keep a promise   And finally, the outraged lover intends to punish his lover as well solve the problem: he asks Kylo to bring him the girl obviously for something else that for some interest in her powers as if he wanted to get rid of the potential rival.

Even if it wasn't in the movie, these lines are canon. What I believe is that Snoke won't get interested in making Rey an ally: he will probably see her as a big threat since she is what endangers his relationship and agenda with Kylo. She has already sort being set as his rival in TFA:


However, we know from the SW databank that Kylo's allegiance has already begun to change although he told Snoke in the novel that his allegiance was only to him (interestingly not to the FO). We also know from J.J. that Ben somehow knows that Snoke is using/abusing him. Plus, we have this shot that reminds me so much of Rapunzel's rebellion against Gothel:



So my feeling is that Ben will realize what Snoke agenda is for him and try to escape this abusive relationship. So I believe in a scenario where Ben will experience some liberty during TLJ - maybe leading him to turn clearly against the FO - but  Snoke -whoever or whatever it is - will claim Ben to be his property by the end and achieve with him what he intended to do for so long. So I believe in a big dramatic and dark scenario with Snoke (and the FO) ultimately possessing Ben against his own will, getting some living source of power as achievement of the huge agenda  and thus obtaining the weapon of mass destruction in the continuity of the Death Star and SKB... and the rich assholes getting a lot of red ores from the FO as a reward they  contributed the FO's victory on Crait and to ensure their further financial support

In this scenario, Leia would have all the reasons to feel destroyed and the audience to feel much empathy for Ben. And let's say it: Ben looks more than ever like a  some vulnerable Prince(ss) in distress needing to be saved from something whatever it is:

@reylo1992

I never thought about it this way :0 It makes complete sense! Poor Ben Remember when Adam was asked if Kylo Ren/Ben would survive Ep 8 and Adam responded: "If that's what you call living." It fits together. Ep 9 would then be Prince Rey saving Princess Ben from figurative and literal possesion/curse/coma
The love triangle is not between Finn, Kylo and Rey - it's between Snoke, Kylo and Rey.

@Persephone

I can see Leia giving up on her son then....and Rey refusing to do so. Ultimately Rey will go after Kylo, not to destroy him but set him free. Maybe alone.

Helix wrote:The new overlords. APorgable.

motherofpearl1 wrote:Meanwhile, what's the deal with Luke - many theories regarding Snoke yet rumours are Luke is the 'big bad' of TLJ.

reylo1992 wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:Meanwhile, what's the deal with Luke - many theories regarding Snoke yet rumours are Luke is the 'big bad' of TLJ.

@motherofpearl1

I must admit that I don't know really what to expect with Luke because having him as Luke as the Bid Bad to make his nephew more worth of the redemption to the audience, well...

I can hardly imagine that Luke would have been so creepy to corrupt his nephew from the whomb and behaving with him like a jealous lover. If so, it would be super creepy and disgusting in a children movie. Providing that Rian got a little inspiration from Little Red Riding Hood, maybe we could try to find out:
- Who is Little Red Riding Hood?
- Who is the Wolf?
- Who is the Grandmother?
- Who is the Hunter?
Rey was described by Daisy as the Little Red Riding Hood. Aside from the aspect of woman (sexual) awakening, I don't know what makes her the Little Red Riding Hood. Maybe her innocence: the fact that she is still childish and naive in some way, believing that Luke is a myth, believing that Finn is a Resistant, having some simplistic vision of the world (DS = evil; LS = good), etc...

SheLitAFire wrote:

reylo1992 wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:Meanwhile, what's the deal with Luke - many theories regarding Snoke yet rumours are Luke is the 'big bad' of TLJ.

@motherofpearl1

I must admit that I don't know really what to expect with Luke because having him as Luke as the Bid Bad to make his nephew more worth of the redemption to the audience, well...

I can hardly imagine that Luke would have been so creepy to corrupt his nephew from the whomb and behaving with him like a jealous lover. If so, it would be super creepy and disgusting in a children movie. Providing that Rian got a little inspiration from Little Red Riding Hood, maybe we could try to find out:
- Who is Little Red Riding Hood?
- Who is the Wolf?
- Who is the Grandmother?
- Who is the Hunter?
Rey was described by Daisy as the Little Red Riding Hood. Aside from the aspect of woman (sexual) awakening, I don't know what makes her the Little Red Riding Hood. Maybe her innocence: the fact that she is still childish and naive in some way, believing that Luke is a myth, believing that Finn is a Resistant, having some simplistic vision of the world (DS = evil; LS = good), etc...

@reylo1992

I read this interesting analysis & history on Little Red Riding Hood a couple of days ago after the posters were released:
https://www.mayastarling.com/little-red-riding-hood-moral-warnings-and-sexual-implications/

reylo1992 wrote:

SheLitAFire wrote:

reylo1992 wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:Meanwhile, what's the deal with Luke - many theories regarding Snoke yet rumours are Luke is the 'big bad' of TLJ.

@motherofpearl1

I must admit that I don't know really what to expect with Luke because having him as Luke as the Bid Bad to make his nephew more worth of the redemption to the audience, well...

I can hardly imagine that Luke would have been so creepy to corrupt his nephew from the whomb and behaving with him like a jealous lover. If so, it would be super creepy and disgusting in a children movie. Providing that Rian got a little inspiration from Little Red Riding Hood, maybe we could try to find out:
- Who is Little Red Riding Hood?
- Who is the Wolf?
- Who is the Grandmother?
- Who is the Hunter?
Rey was described by Daisy as the Little Red Riding Hood. Aside from the aspect of woman (sexual) awakening, I don't know what makes her the Little Red Riding Hood. Maybe her innocence: the fact that she is still childish and naive in some way, believing that Luke is a myth, believing that Finn is a Resistant, having some simplistic vision of the world (DS = evil; LS = good), etc...

@reylo1992

I read this interesting analysis & history on Little Red Riding Hood a couple of days ago after the posters were released:
https://www.mayastarling.com/little-red-riding-hood-moral-warnings-and-sexual-implications/

@SheLitAFire

Thanks

SheLitAFire wrote:

reylo1992 wrote:

SheLitAFire wrote:

reylo1992 wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:Meanwhile, what's the deal with Luke - many theories regarding Snoke yet rumours are Luke is the 'big bad' of TLJ.

@motherofpearl1

I must admit that I don't know really what to expect with Luke because having him as Luke as the Bid Bad to make his nephew more worth of the redemption to the audience, well...

I can hardly imagine that Luke would have been so creepy to corrupt his nephew from the whomb and behaving with him like a jealous lover. If so, it would be super creepy and disgusting in a children movie. Providing that Rian got a little inspiration from Little Red Riding Hood, maybe we could try to find out:
- Who is Little Red Riding Hood?
- Who is the Wolf?
- Who is the Grandmother?
- Who is the Hunter?
Rey was described by Daisy as the Little Red Riding Hood. Aside from the aspect of woman (sexual) awakening, I don't know what makes her the Little Red Riding Hood. Maybe her innocence: the fact that she is still childish and naive in some way, believing that Luke is a myth, believing that Finn is a Resistant, having some simplistic vision of the world (DS = evil; LS = good), etc...

@reylo1992

I read this interesting analysis & history on Little Red Riding Hood a couple of days ago after the posters were released:
https://www.mayastarling.com/little-red-riding-hood-moral-warnings-and-sexual-implications/

@SheLitAFire

Thanks

@reylo1992

Is Snoke perhaps the wolf? ("bring her to me")
Hunter would seem to be Kylo...but wow, I'm just not sure. I'm getting hung up on who is the grandmother....
Maybe it's just the larger significance & symbolism that inspired Rian, rather than the characters themselves. I dunno.

@reylo1992 wrote:Rey would have every reason to fight against Snoke because he would be behind both the definitive lost of her past belonging and  for the lost of her future belonging.

@persephone wrote:I never thought about it this way :0 It makes complete sense! Poor Ben  Remember when Adam was asked if Kylo Ren/Ben would survive Ep 8 and Adam responded: "If that's what you call living." It fits together. Ep 9 would then be Prince Rey saving Princess Ben from figurative and literal possesion/curse/coma The love triangle is not between Finn, Kylo and Rey - it's between Snoke, Kylo and Rey.

There was as much curiosity in Supreme Leader Snoke’s voice as there was disappointment.

“This scavenger—this girl—resisted you?”

Supreme Leader’s voice was flat. “You have compassion for her.”

“I perceive the problem,” Snoke intoned. “It isn’t her strength that is making you fail. It’s your weakness.” The rebuke hurt, but Ren didn’t show it.

"And you promised me when it came to destroying the Resistance you wouldn't fail me."

fuhry wrote:The Snoke/Kylo relationship is certainly a fascinating one. As time goes by, I feel like Snoke is quite a different beast from the Emperor. How, I'm not sure.

I was thinking - the reveal between ROTJ and TFA that Luke and Leia are the progeny of Darth Vader seems like it's a significant event. Basically, the whole family gets thrown out of the Republic. Leia, having experienced the evil of Vader (and never developing compassion for him), might naturally react by trying to prove herself by leading the Resistance against the threat of the First Order, which looks just like the Empire. Ben, however, might react differently. He might have a lot of disdain for the Republic, which so easily bends to the will of some politicians trying to advance themselves by ruining the reputation of his family. Maybe his reaction is that the Republic are a bunch of hypocritical assholes, and he thinks they should be removed from power. Luke, on the other hand, would try to make the case that Vader returned to the light side and defeated the Emperor, ending the Empire's reign. No one would likely believe him. He may also share disdain for the Republic.

How did the Vader reveal affect Han? Hey... did Han ever know that Vader was Luke and Leia's father?

Maybe... the Republic attacked Luke's Jedi academy. Maybe they spread the rumor that it was Ben, and Leia and Han believed it. Maybe the Knights of Ren are the surviving members of Luke's academy, who have good reason to hate the Republic.

fuhry wrote:The Snoke/Kylo relationship is certainly a fascinating one.  As time goes by, I feel like Snoke is quite a different beast from the Emperor.  How, I'm not sure.  

I was thinking - the reveal between ROTJ and TFA that Luke and Leia are the progeny of Darth Vader seems like it's a significant event.  Basically, the whole family gets thrown out of the Republic.  Leia, having experienced the evil of Vader (and never developing compassion for him), might naturally react by trying to prove herself by leading the Resistance against the threat of the First Order, which looks just like the Empire.  Ben, however, might react differently.  He might have a lot of disdain for the Republic, which so easily bends to the will of some politicians trying to advance themselves by ruining the reputation of his family.  Maybe his reaction is that the Republic are a bunch of hypocritical assholes, and he thinks they should be removed from power.  Luke, on the other hand, would try to make the case that Vader returned to the light side and defeated the Emperor, ending the Empire's reign.  No one would likely believe him.  He may also share disdain for the Republic.  

How did the Vader reveal affect Han?  Hey... did Han ever know that Vader was Luke and Leia's father?

Maybe... the Republic attacked Luke's Jedi academy.  Maybe they spread the rumor that it was Ben, and Leia and Han believed it.  Maybe the Knights of Ren are the surviving members of Luke's academy, who have good reason to hate the Republic.  

Moonlight13 wrote:

fuhry wrote:The Snoke/Kylo relationship is certainly a fascinating one.  As time goes by, I feel like Snoke is quite a different beast from the Emperor.  How, I'm not sure.  

I was thinking - the reveal between ROTJ and TFA that Luke and Leia are the progeny of Darth Vader seems like it's a significant event.  Basically, the whole family gets thrown out of the Republic.  Leia, having experienced the evil of Vader (and never developing compassion for him), might naturally react by trying to prove herself by leading the Resistance against the threat of the First Order, which looks just like the Empire.  Ben, however, might react differently.  He might have a lot of disdain for the Republic, which so easily bends to the will of some politicians trying to advance themselves by ruining the reputation of his family.  Maybe his reaction is that the Republic are a bunch of hypocritical assholes, and he thinks they should be removed from power.  Luke, on the other hand, would try to make the case that Vader returned to the light side and defeated the Emperor, ending the Empire's reign.  No one would likely believe him.  He may also share disdain for the Republic.  

How did the Vader reveal affect Han?  Hey... did Han ever know that Vader was Luke and Leia's father?

Maybe... the Republic attacked Luke's Jedi academy.  Maybe they spread the rumor that it was Ben, and Leia and Han believed it.  Maybe the Knights of Ren are the surviving members of Luke's academy, who have good reason to hate the Republic.  

@fuhry

That in itself seems like a good reason to fall to the Dark side.

ReyofLightSide wrote:

fuhry wrote:The Snoke/Kylo relationship is certainly a fascinating one.  As time goes by, I feel like Snoke is quite a different beast from the Emperor.  How, I'm not sure.  

I was thinking - the reveal between ROTJ and TFA that Luke and Leia are the progeny of Darth Vader seems like it's a significant event.  Basically, the whole family gets thrown out of the Republic.  Leia, having experienced the evil of Vader (and never developing compassion for him), might naturally react by trying to prove herself by leading the Resistance against the threat of the First Order, which looks just like the Empire.  Ben, however, might react differently.  He might have a lot of disdain for the Republic, which so easily bends to the will of some politicians trying to advance themselves by ruining the reputation of his family.  Maybe his reaction is that the Republic are a bunch of hypocritical assholes, and he thinks they should be removed from power.  Luke, on the other hand, would try to make the case that Vader returned to the light side and defeated the Emperor, ending the Empire's reign.  No one would likely believe him.  He may also share disdain for the Republic.  

How did the Vader reveal affect Han?  Hey... did Han ever know that Vader was Luke and Leia's father?

Maybe... the Republic attacked Luke's Jedi academy.  Maybe they spread the rumor that it was Ben, and Leia and Han believed it.  Maybe the Knights of Ren are the surviving members of Luke's academy, who have good reason to hate the Republic.  

@fuhry

That would be an amazing twist and would explain a LOT. It also ties in nicely with Bloodline.

snufkin wrote:

ReyofLightSide wrote:

fuhry wrote:The Snoke/Kylo relationship is certainly a fascinating one.  As time goes by, I feel like Snoke is quite a different beast from the Emperor.  How, I'm not sure.  

I was thinking - the reveal between ROTJ and TFA that Luke and Leia are the progeny of Darth Vader seems like it's a significant event.  Basically, the whole family gets thrown out of the Republic.  Leia, having experienced the evil of Vader (and never developing compassion for him), might naturally react by trying to prove herself by leading the Resistance against the threat of the First Order, which looks just like the Empire.  Ben, however, might react differently.  He might have a lot of disdain for the Republic, which so easily bends to the will of some politicians trying to advance themselves by ruining the reputation of his family.  Maybe his reaction is that the Republic are a bunch of hypocritical assholes, and he thinks they should be removed from power.  Luke, on the other hand, would try to make the case that Vader returned to the light side and defeated the Emperor, ending the Empire's reign.  No one would likely believe him.  He may also share disdain for the Republic.  

How did the Vader reveal affect Han?  Hey... did Han ever know that Vader was Luke and Leia's father?

Maybe... the Republic attacked Luke's Jedi academy.  Maybe they spread the rumor that it was Ben, and Leia and Han believed it.  Maybe the Knights of Ren are the surviving members of Luke's academy, who have good reason to hate the Republic.  

@fuhry

That would be an amazing twist and would explain a LOT. It also ties in nicely with Bloodline.

@ReyofLightSide

Agreed, that's been something I thought a lot about after reading Bloodline. Especially because the public shaming/attack on Leia, people also condemn Luke and accuse them of both twins of being after power given who their father was. It would also fit in with whatever half truths Ben was told about their grandparents being heroes and then the eventual reveal/realization that his mother kept the truth from him. Which being intimate, would feel even more like a betrayal on top of whatever he's witnessed from her political career, growing up in the Capitol, and whatever incident led to him being 'abandoned' to his weirdo and likely fanatical uncle. Like "you motherf**kers think I'm Vader? Well then I'll give it to you."

fuhry wrote:The Snoke/Kylo relationship is certainly a fascinating one. As time goes by, I feel like Snoke is quite a different beast from the Emperor. How, I'm not sure.

I was thinking - the reveal between ROTJ and TFA that Luke and Leia are the progeny of Darth Vader seems like it's a significant event. Basically, the whole family gets thrown out of the Republic. Leia, having experienced the evil of Vader (and never developing compassion for him), might naturally react by trying to prove herself by leading the Resistance against the threat of the First Order, which looks just like the Empire. Ben, however, might react differently. He might have a lot of disdain for the Republic, which so easily bends to the will of some politicians trying to advance themselves by ruining the reputation of his family. Maybe his reaction is that the Republic are a bunch of hypocritical assholes, and he thinks they should be removed from power. Luke, on the other hand, would try to make the case that Vader returned to the light side and defeated the Emperor, ending the Empire's reign. No one would likely believe him. He may also share disdain for the Republic.

How did the Vader reveal affect Han? Hey... did Han ever know that Vader was Luke and Leia's father?

Maybe... the Republic attacked Luke's Jedi academy. Maybe they spread the rumor that it was Ben, and Leia and Han believed it. Maybe the Knights of Ren are the surviving members of Luke's academy, who have good reason to hate the Republic.

ISeeanIsland wrote:I'm going with Ben-killed-the-students. Where I think the twist will be is in his motivation to kill the students. Were the students ganging up on him Lord-of-the-Flies style, and Ben killed them in self-defense? (It seems pretty clear that Luke wasn't around when the massacre actually happened.) Or were the students, perhaps, planning to kill Luke and/or Leia once the Vader reveal happened...or perhaps just plotting something "bad"? I think that any of those scenarios are still on the table, and I fully expect there to be some big twist to Ben's fall that casts Kylo in a sympathetic light.

Piper Maru wrote:The problem with Ben's fall is that the wording used in TFA to describe it is very open to interpretation. He is a boy who destroyed everything. Okay, but "destroy" can mean a hundred things depending of the context. They could've flat out said that he killed everyone because he wanted to, but they didn't.

SanghaRen wrote:

Piper Maru wrote:The problem with Ben's fall is that the wording used in TFA to describe it is very open to interpretation. He is a boy who destroyed everything. Okay, but "destroy" can mean a hundred things depending of the context. They could've flat out said that he killed everyone because he wanted to, but they didn't.

@Piper Maru

At the same time it's Han telling this to strangers. As a father I am not sure he can fully acknowledge that his son has killed Luke's students and has difficulties pronouncing the word "kill", the same way he says "a boy" and not a young man because it's his son no matter what. I'd say that you can tell this scene was written by fathers and Han is played by a father. A lot of fatherly weariness in that scene.

I am also inclined to believe that Ben really killed them and it's the circumstances that will be surprising. But yeah, nothing's set in stone.