Rian's New Rules

Piper Maru wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:Just started reading the Guardian of the Whills book.  Check out this sentence with Chirrut as narrator:

" ... the long outer wall of the Temple of the Kyber that was forever condemned to be shielded from sunlight. This, too, had meaning. For the light to exist, there must be dark.  For the Force there must be balance."

@SoloSideCousin

Oooooh.

"Light... (cue Rey's Theme).... Darkness (cue Kylo's Theme)... The Balance (cue triumphal music)."

@Piper Maru

"The outer wall of the Temple of the Kyber (Cristal)  that was forever condemned to be shielded from sunlight?" Hmmm...


Why do I ever get that Atlantis vibe when I hear about the Kyber ?








If this happens in TLJ, I am eager to discover which one of Kylo or Rey will be chosen by the Force and in which circumstances?

Fly and Ozymandias are a great double bill of Breaking Bad episodes and interesting choices for Rian Johnson to direct. He didn't write the scripts but these two episodes do connect together in interesting ways. Fly is from season 3 and is a bit of a Marmite episode in that people seem to either love it or hate it. I love it. Ozymandias is from season 5 and its the penultimate to the penultimate episode. In both Fly and Ozymandias, Walter White is confronted with the brutal consequences to his actions. In Fly, it's mainly represented through an existential crisis where he ponders when it would have been the perfect time for him to die. He choses a moment just before he watched someone die, which ended up having awful repercussions he couldn't foresee at the time. His obsession with the fly is a metaphor for how he tried to control everything and then unknown factors came in and messed up his plans. He has an attack of conscience about that one death, even though he's killed countless others or been responsible for their deaths, and he almost confesses to it. In Ozymandias, he does confess to it to the one person he knows it will hurt the most. By that point, he's pretty much destroyed everything he ever held dear. But instead of agonising over it like he did in Fly, he eventually makes a choice to try and spare his surviving loved ones from going down with him.

In both episodes, Walter White is shown to have a conscience and some degree of remorse for his actions. However, he still does awful things in both and people suffer and die because of him. I guess Rian's seeming pull towards these kinds of stories could come into play with Kylo/Ben. I'm not sure I can see anything which would translate to new rules from them. Also, as much as I love Adam, I'm not sure how familiar he is with all things relating to the force outside of the movies. Like he might not have seen The Clone Wars, for example, or read any of the canon novels. One doesn't like to assume, but he might be calling something new which has previously been used by another character outside of the PT and OT.

reylo1992 wrote:

Piper Maru wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:Just started reading the Guardian of the Whills book.  Check out this sentence with Chirrut as narrator:

" ... the long outer wall of the Temple of the Kyber that was forever condemned to be shielded from sunlight. This, too, had meaning. For the light to exist, there must be dark.  For the Force there must be balance."

@SoloSideCousin

Oooooh.

"Light... (cue Rey's Theme).... Darkness (cue Kylo's Theme)... The Balance (cue triumphal music)."

@Piper Maru

"The outer wall of the Temple of the Kyber (Cristal)  that was forever condemned to be shielded from sunlight?" Hmmm...


Why do I ever get that Atlantis vibe when I hear about the Kyber ?








If this happens in TLJ, I am eager to discover which one of Kylo or Rey will be chosen by the Force and in which circumstances?

@reylo1992

I never saw Atlantis. What is the connection exactly?

SoloSideCousin wrote:

reylo1992 wrote:

Piper Maru wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:Just started reading the Guardian of the Whills book.  Check out this sentence with Chirrut as narrator:

" ... the long outer wall of the Temple of the Kyber that was forever condemned to be shielded from sunlight. This, too, had meaning. For the light to exist, there must be dark.  For the Force there must be balance."

@SoloSideCousin

Oooooh.

"Light... (cue Rey's Theme).... Darkness (cue Kylo's Theme)... The Balance (cue triumphal music)."

@Piper Maru

"The outer wall of the Temple of the Kyber (Cristal)  that was forever condemned to be shielded from sunlight?" Hmmm...


Why do I ever get that Atlantis vibe when I hear about the Kyber ?








If this happens in TLJ, I am eager to discover which one of Kylo or Rey will be chosen by the Force and in which circumstances?

@reylo1992

I never saw Atlantis. What is the connection exactly?

@SoloSideCousin

Hmm, that's a pretty long story. I agree that the connection with Atlantis in this quote alone isn't obvious but my assumption is based on a much larger connection that I see between Atlantis and the ST (see in the Disney dimension thread).

I have never read the Journal of the Guardian of the Whills but I know the opening quote of the TFA novel: "First comes the day/Then comes the night"b]

The Atlantis plot focuses on an expedition to find the lost island of Atlantis that in some way looks so similar to the lost island of Achch-To where Luke Skywalker hides. The only way to get to Atlantis is a book and the only wayto get to Ahch-To is a map. Atlantis was the location of the first human civilization and Ahch-To the location of the first Jedi Temple:


A big difference is that a whole civilization still lives on Atlantis where Luke lives all alone on Ahch-To. Still, I find some similarities with King Kashekim. They are both old men who look haunted by their past mistakes. We know from the Darth Vader comic book that the concept of Barash vow was introduced to describe Jedi retiring from the Order to focus on the Force as some penitence. A lot of us have also assumed that Luke has some specific reason to stay on Ahch-To, maybe to protect something. And indeed, another spoiler implied that the island is indeed full of protectors (i.e. the birds), but then to protect what exactly??? Beyond the spoilers, some details make me thing that there is indeed something precious to protect there:

1) Let's keep in mind that Rian Johnson took inspiration from the movie Letter Never Sent about...an expedition to find diamonds in wild Siberia

2) Nothing to do with Atlantis there but still the strange visual similarity between the steps that lead to the Force tree and the steps that lead to the magic lamp of the Cave of Wonder in Aladdin


3) In Atlantis, the book isn't only a map: one page provides specific information about the cristal - this living energy that keeps the island and its civilization alive. We can deduct from the TLJ trailer that the book we see while Rey is talking about a balance is actually kept inside the Force tree

4) Then, there is this symbol that appears not only on the book but also through the light projected by the kyber cristal of the Skywalker lightsaber in the TLJ poster


I don't know if that was introduced before (because 99% of my Star Wars knowledge come only from the movies) but like the GA I was introduced to the concept of kyber cristal in RO. IMO the kyber cristal that Lyra gives to Jyn whilesaying "trust the Force" look much too similar to the necklaces of Atlantis to be just a lucky coincidence:

In RO, we are introduced through Lyra's character to some original vision of the Force, this idea that humans shall live in harmony with nature. However, we also learn that the kyber cristals are not only used to construct lightsabers and but to power the Death Star - a weapon of massive destruction! And there it becomes very interesting for the TLJ plot.The connection that I see between the ST, Atlantis and Letter Never Sent is that the plot is all about the (mis)use of natural order, this idea that humans are ready to exploit natural elements to a point that it would become dangerous for humanity. In Letter Never Sent, it's a little different there is still this idea that - inthe end- nature remains more powerful than humans and can destroy it no matter one try to control it. In this regard, King Kashekim's revelation is extremely interesting when he explains how he made the mistake to use the cristal power as a weapon, which ended with the fall of Atlantis:


Now, I find all of this especially telling when we know what both the Empire and the First Order tried to do by constructing the Death Star and then the Starkiller Base. We know from RO that the Death Star was charged by (mis)using by the power of kyber cristals and the Starkiller base by (mis)the power of the Sun...which ultimately led to this:


Am I the only who can't help but think how visually similar this images look

By crossing these information all together, it made me realize something very important. Snoke and the FO built a Starkiller Base on the same model of the Death, a choice that was highly criticized both my a lot of my relatives and apparently the GA too who considered it as lazy writing. After all:
1) Why would J.J.Abrams and the Star Wars crew would have introduced a continuity between the massive weapons (Death Star I, Death Star II, Starkiller Base)
2) Why would the Star Wars crew have decide to make an entire standalone movie explaining to the GA the use of kyber cristal to power the Death Star:?:
3) Why would they have introduced the same kind of weapon using the power of such a powerful and vital element like the sun

The interesting thing about these three massive weapons is that no matter how big and powerful they seem, they all end destroyed because of the same technical vulnerability. This leads me to this assumption:
- The FO shall have a decisive victory over the Resistance in TLJ
- The FO needs to get an even more powerful weapon of massive destruction than SKB for the rest of the trilogy because this is logical with the evolution in the course of the trilogy. However, it's impossible for them to build such a weapon in such a few time period since TLJ begins right after TFA. What's more, it would be really a poor choice to introduce a fourth death star...just to have it destroyed just the same way it was in ANH, ROTJ, TFA, right

No matter how hard  they would try and how much time it would take, the FO could never construct a perfect Death Star to control the galaxy. Like Snoke says in the TFA novel, "the finest sculptor cannot fashion a masterpiece from poor materials". For that, "something pure, something strong, something unbreakable", maybe a natural source of energy like the Sun that holds an incredibly amount of Force power:?:


Rian told that he didn't get much into Snoke in TLJ however the few details that we got about him are extremely telling. Snoke is described as someone being obsessed with money, at least with luxurious objects. In Atlantis, the crew is interested in getting the cristal to make money with it no matter what it represents: a living force of energy that keeps a whole civilization alive. We know what the Force is: a source of energy that moves through and surrounds every living things. Like Qui-Gon Jinn explain, there would be no life without midichlorians - without the Force itself. So let's assume that some source of energy would exist in TLJ, it must be hidden somewhere. In Atlantis, we learn that the King Kashekim hid the cristal in a dark chamber underground where no one could find it, which was the solution found to prevent Atlantis from another self-destruction . This leads me once again to this quote of the Journal of the Whills:

" the long outer wall of the Temple of the Kyber that was forever condemned to be shielded from sunlight. This, too, had meaning. For the light to exist, there must be dark.  For the Force there must be balance."[/quote]
Like Kashekim, Luke is maybe hiding and protecting something that like the cristal in Atlantis ensures some balance for the natural order a

As for Snoke, we know from Andy Serkis that he has a huge agenda. If he's meant to be a great villain, he certainly has larger plans than money. We know that he's been working hard to fashion Ben from the whomb - which means that he had his evil plan in mind very early after the fall of the Empire - to make him a masterpiece because he considers him as something pure, strong and unbreakable made of both from light and darkness and born with equal potential for good and evil. Maybe the TFA ain't that important but I guess it is all canon since TLJ script was already done when ADF published it. We know that Snoke needs Ben/Kylo for something specific, something that he needs to get. Plus let's keep in mind what is written about this scene: with the Force sort of taking decision there!

Like the cristal - a living force choosing a royal - the Force can take a decision. However, the decision is ambiguous because despite the patricide, it doesn't seem like it's only darkness that awakened within Ben/Kylo at this moment:


So what if TLJ would end up with a very big cliffhanger of that kind that will lead to darkness before balance is finally found:?:
1) The Resistance getting defeated by the FO
2) Snoke draining through Kylo and/or Rey that "pure, strong, unbreakable" Force power
3) Kylo and Rey getting separated in dramatic circumstances


I'll just add that if the screenwriters really chose to that road for the ST, I believe it could offer a good example- if well done - of some good balance/ambiguity between the familiar and unfamiliar of the Star Wars universe, but it's only my personal opinion

I would say that The Brothers Bloom was about the Triumph of the Guileless over cynicism. But see everyone's points, as well.

No spoiler but a French article about Rey's identity that I find interesting:
http://www.melty.fr/star-wars-les-derniers-jedi-rey-doit-elle-vraiment-etre-une-skywalker-a611353.html

The author asks himself whether Rey really has to be a Skywalker. After one year and a half, good to see that melty has evolved! However, there are some points that I would like to discuss on this thread because I think that it raises some questions about Rian's new rules.

1) "Et il est vrai que Star Wars a toujours été une histoire de famille, celle des Skywalker. C'était le cas dans la première trilogie, et c'était le cas dans les préquelles"

That article points out that Star Wars always focused on  the story of one single family : the Skywalker family. The author writes that it becomes less and less probable that Rey would be a Skywalker for many reasons that we have been already pointing out since December 2015 on this forum. What I find once again unbelievable is how that author - like so many other people - fail to see that Rey doesn't need necessarily to be born as a Skywalker to become day part of that family. From my side, I feel some frustration about it because I have always found Maz's lines - among them "the belonging you seek is not behind you, it is ahead" so clear in regard to Rey's heroin journey in the ST. Plus, this is obviously what Daisy thought about it.

2) "Mais, en réalité, l'argument principal que l'on peut utiliser pour réfuter cette théorie, c'est tout simplement que ce serait vraiment capillotracté. Quoi, dans un univers comportant des milliards et des milliards d'habitants, seule une famille aurait la possibilité de maîtriser suffisamment la Force pour rétablir l'équilibre et sauver la galaxie ?"

Here I think that the author raises a good point by writing that until now Star Wars always put the balance of the Force and the fate of the galaxy in the hands of the Skywalker family although there are billions and billions inhabitants in that galaxy far away. It seems that Rian's new rules tend to show that there are many ways - not only two opposites ways - to consider the Force. So of course, we could imagine that Syar Wars shouldn't focus eternally on the Skywalker family. Even financially, it wouldn't be good: one of my very good friend complained that TFA was some reminiscent story of Darth Vader's story with Kylo following the footsteps of his grand father. I suppose that she was not the only one to have this opinion.

3) "Mais ce serait véritablement tirer sur la corde que de faire de TOUS les héros de la saga des membres de la même famille. Surtout que pour représenter la nouvelle génération Skywalker, nous disposons déjà d'un candidat au fort potentiel : Kylo Ren, qui réunit à lui seul toute l'ambivalence qui marque la famille. Et rappelons aussi que, d'une manière ou d'une autre, tous les Skywalker ont échoué jusqu'ici dans leur rôle de Jedi et de père et/ou de mentor. Si Rey est censée rétablir l'équilibre dans la Force dans Star Wars : Les Derniers Jedi, il vaut alors peut-être mieux pour elle de ne pas faire partie de la famille..."

I really want to discuss that excerpt of the article because it belongs to the kind of arguments that really make my blood boil (and it's not easy to make my blood boil) So guys/girls, I would be happy to know what you think about it and I hope I won't sound too "aggressive" by analysing that excerpt.

So the author says that there is no need to have more Skywalker of the new generation because we already have one: Kylo Ren. Here, it is perfectly okay for me because this is indeed what PH wrote himself on twitter when he replied that Kylo is the Skywalker of the ST.

Then, the author stresses that this Skywalker, Kylo Ren, is the perfect example of the ambivalence of the Skywalker family. Here again, the author raises a good point. It is true that the role and legacy of the Skywalker family - I would rather say the Skywalker males - is more less than satisfying knowing which role Anakin was supposed to fulfill:
- Anakin's fall to the DS
- Ben's fall to the DS
- Luke's "madness"/"darkness"?
One can't deny that the Skywalker's legacy is anything but satisfying in regard to the high expectations, but here comes the comment that I find the most interesting:

"Et rappelons aussi que, d'une manière ou d'une autre, tous les Skywalker ont échoué jusqu'ici dans leur rôle de Jedi et de père et/ou de mentor. Si Rey est censée rétablir l'équilibre dans la Force dans Star Wars : Les Derniers Jedi, il vaut alors peut-être mieux pour elle de ne pas faire partie de la famille..."
Really, guys, I am very open-minded in general but TBH I can't help but feeling my blood boil when I read that!

So the author stresses that since the Skywalker all failed in their role of Jedi, father or mentor, his conclusion that it would be far better if Rey wouldn't be a Skywalker if she is meant to bring to balance in the Force (instead of a Skywalker). The journalist basically says that since the Skywalker (males) always failed in their role, Rey shall take that role and that we shall have the heroin replace the Skywalker in order to make right again everything what they failed. Maybe, I am wrong to think that way but I just can't help but thinking that it is the worst thing that could ever happen in this story.

We know from a guy from Lucas Film that  TLJ  is "all about the Skywalker". Like I already wrote, one of my close friend criticized TFA for continuing the story of the Skwwalker with the grandson following the footsteps of Darth Vader. Plus, Claudia Gray published Bloodline, a novel that focuses on Darth Vader's legacy and what it means for Leia to be born as his daughter and by extension what it means for Ben to be born as his grandson. Since December 2015, I have always asked myself for what reason Lucas Film would have chosen to focus on Darth Vader's legacy in the ST. And more important, I ask myself what role Rey is supposed to fulfill in that family scheme marked by drama both for the family itself and for the galaxy?

Here, I will maybe sound a little harsh for Rey but I dare hope that Lucas Film hasn't in mind to have her fulfilling the role and legacy of the Skywalker at their place. I think it would be much more interesting to explain us for what reason the DS plagues them like a curse - a sort of Damocles sword - and how this could be definitely reversed so that a Skywalker could fulfill his role and bring a positive legacy for the galaxy.

Because what is actually the biggest problem for the Skywalkers, a problem that Bloodline brilliantly pointed out? No matter what the Skwwalker try to achieve, the shatter of Darth Vader's legacy is still - and will be always - there. Anakin Skywalker will never be remembered as a Clone Wars hero but as the bloody Dark Lord of the Sith who was responsible for the death of millions - maybe billions - people. This is of course an enormous bloody legacy that  his children, his grandchild and the next Skywalker generations will bear. With Anakin falling to the DS to serve the Empire, Ben turning to the DS to serve the FO and Luke's fate being very incertain, the Skywalker family may be always be remembered as a bloody family.

So what does Lucas Film intends to do with that legacy in the ST since they made it so important for the ST?
- Telling the GA that after 40 years focusing on that Skywalker family, it appears that they were only meant to bring blood and disaster to the galaxy?
- Telling the GA that Qui-Gon Jinn, the entire Jedi Order and even worse the Ones (The Father, the Daughter and the Son) just screw up by identifying a Skywalker as the Chosen One who one day would bring balance to the Force?
- Telling the GA that actually no Skywalker was ever meant to be the savior of the galaxy and that they found another character from a another family who is more worth to fulfill that role instead, just ignoring what George Lucas and the whole prequel trilogy -including the Clone Wars - made canon?

I could make a nice shocking truth but IMO it would suck. I don't think that that this should happen whether we like the idea of the Chosen One or not and no matter what so many think about the Skywalker males (weak crying babies who can't resist the DS and face their own flaws).

I think that it's because the Skywalker legacy  has become so marked by blood and failure that it's so important that a Skywalker himself make things right again in the most shining and spectacular way both for his family and  the galaxy. However, this can only happen with the decisive intervention of a character who doesn't belong to that family. Once again, I may sound repetitive from one post to another but I think that Scarlet Heart Ryeo offers a very good example of the role of the heroin in the the fate of both a family and a kingdom. So people who haven't watched the drama until Episode 9, please please don't read the following content because it reveals the whole plot of the story:

Spoiler:

Of course, I don't expect TLJ to follow the SHR plot and Rey becoming a Hae Soo. For many reasons, I found Hae Soo quite disappointing because she ended up quite passive commparing towhat she was supposed to fulfill. Still, I think that it offers a very good example that a hero(ine) isn't necessarily meant to be the savior of the galaxy but playing a decisive role in the fate of the galaxy. Hae Soo didn't save the Goryeo people and didn't get the role of the Chosen One. However, it is true in some way like it is stated by King Taejo himself that  she has the fate of the Gorye Kingdom in her hands. And this is how I understand Rey's role in the ST especially in regard to Leia's plea in the TLJ trailer: "Help me Obi-Wan! (You're my only hope)". Maybe Rey is really meant to have a very symbolic/prophetic role i.e. like the embodiment of the Light. However, I can't help but seeing her as a bad*** woman of action who would change the course of the galaxy  by her brave actions rather than by what she represents. When you look at the poster, okay she is indeed placed in the middle and holding the Skywalker lightsaber. However,  Kylo - with his feminine look and make-up - looks more like the damsel in distress and Rey like a bad*** hero. And here is my point: maybe, Rian Johnson will make it differently but if you have two lead characters, one changes the course of history by his brave actions and the other by his symbolic/prophetic role with the first one generally generally having to save the second. When I look at the major references that I personally see in TFA, it applies to all the duos:
1) Elliott (role: hero/active/brave) vs.  E.T. (role: symbolic/prophetic/passive/ misused by sientists)


2) Eugene (role: hero/active/brave) vs. Rapunzel (role: symbolic/prophetic/misused by Mother Gothel)


3) Milo (role: hero/active/brave) vs. Kida (role: symbolic: Princess/prophetic: Chosen One/misused by Commander Rourke)


4) Hae Soo (role: heroine/active/brave) vs. Wang So (role: symbolic/prophetic/misused by Queen Yo)

Spoiler:

5) Rey from TFA (role: heroine/active/brave) vs. Kylo from TFA (role: symbolic - Skywalker legacy/ prophetic - the Sun/misused by Supreme Leader Snoke) ==> even the poster suggests who has the active role of the hero and the other the passive role of the traditional Princess in distress


Plus, Kylo's poster in TLJ also reminds strangely of a SHR poster. SHR current viewers, better not read

Spoiler:

One of the many reasons why I tend to insist on the potentiality of some Alantis scenario for the ST has also to do with the Skywalker legacy. I don't say that the ST should copy Atlantis but still based on the many similarities I see, I would find it awesome for the following reason. In the previous posts above, I pointed out how strange I find that Lucas Film decided not only to explain us inRO that the power of the Death Star come from kyber cristal but to give some continuity from the Death Star to SKB. Then, I made the assumption that in TLJ the FO wouldn't construct another SKB (because lazy writing) but would seek and get some "pure, unbreakable, strong" source of Force energy. Then, I made the assumption that Snoke could use either Kylo or Rey to get it. Let's be honest, I rather believe and actually would like that Kylo would be misused as Snoke's super weapon in the continuity of bith their abusive relationship dramatic bloody legacy of the Skywalker. Nothing against Rey but once again, I think that it is particularly important that a Skywalker gets the opportunity to save the galaxy in the most spectacular way, in a way that everybody could witness it. This is especially important when we know that millions of deaths were provoked by the Death Star and SKB with these two "passive" witnesses whose crimes could shatter the Skywalker legacy forever:


So what if we would get in Episode 9 a sort of remake of the SKB firing from TFA but this time it would save the galaxy from destruction (SHR current viewers, better not read)

Spoiler:

Ben getting this kind of role instead of Rey would be extremely shocking for the GA since most of the article focus either on Rey's parentage or her incredible powers and on Kylo as a bad or weak villain. Now, I don't ignore the many clues that suggest that Rey may be a very important character in the sense that she would get that kind of role. Still, it's only a personal feeling that it doesn't really fit to her character to be reduced to some symbolic/prophetic role. And unless her parents are DS users whose legacy is worse than the Skywalkers, I don't think that it requires for her character to save the galaxy in the most spectacular, shining and public way. Now, maybe she and Kylo will get exactly the same kind of role: it's fine for me as long as Lucas Film doesn't make her the Chosen One as a replacement of a Skywalker. However, I must say that I am kinda worried with what Lucas Film intends to do with her character. Although I am a woman and a feminist, I feel a little worried that Lucasfilm would intend to make Rey the most bad*** Star Wars character ever, giving her all the possible symbolic roles, power abilities and human qualities just because they want to empower their Star Wars ladies at all costs. Now I understand that they walk on eggs: on the one hand, if she ends up not having that kind of role, people would complain that she's become a vagina for the sake of the Skywalker lineage; on the other hand, so many people already complain that she's already like a Mary Sue because until she doesn't show any flaws like traditional heros.

So I apologize if maybe it sounds a little too harsh or passionate I don't know if there are other people there on this forum who maybe have the same kind of feeling  about this topic but anyways I am always interested in getting different point of views and contradictions

@reylo1992
I don't think she is "the embodiment of the light", because in my opinion she used the dark side to defeat Kylo so it wouldn't make sense.

Moonlight13 wrote:@reylo1992
I don't think she is "the embodiment of the light", because in my opinion she used the dark side to defeat Kylo so it wouldn't make sense.

@Moonlight13

That's a good point! I am not very convinced either by that because of the way she attacked so aggressively from her very first battle. That's one of the reason why I initially thought that she could have some DS legacy but I have less and less the feeling that the screenwriters intend to go the road of the DS's lineage and fall with her. That's also why I am asking myself what Lucas Film is gonna do with her in that ST and feel a little worried with their intentions.

reylo1992 wrote:

Moonlight13 wrote:@reylo1992
I don't think she is "the embodiment of the light", because in my opinion she used the dark side to defeat Kylo so it wouldn't make sense.

@Moonlight13

That's a good point! I am not very convinced either by that because of the way she attacked so aggressively from her very first battle. That's one of the reason why I initially thought that she could have some DS legacy but I have less and less the feeling that the screenwriters intend to go the road of the DS's lineage and fall with her. That's also why I am asking myself what Lucas Film is gonna do with her in that ST and feel a little worried with their intentions.

@reylo1992

Maybe she's no one (like she already said). That would mean that anybody can be force sensitive, no matter where they come from.

Rey defeating Kylo with the dark side always seemed unlikely to me, because the whole point of the scene is about her remembering about the force and tuning into it to kick Kylo's a**. I can see no setup for the dark side there. Sure, Rey looks pretty angry and all, but if I remember right Obi-Wan was pretty angry and worked up when he fought Darth Maul and there was no assumption that he used the dark side.

Saracene wrote:Rey defeating Kylo with the dark side always seemed unlikely to me, because the whole point of the scene is about her remembering about the force and tuning into it to kick Kylo's a**. I can see no setup for the dark side there. Sure, Rey looks pretty angry and all, but if I remember right Obi-Wan was pretty angry and worked up when he fought Darth Maul and there was no assumption that he used the dark side.

@Saracene

Maybe she didn't use the dark side but she was very close to doing it. To me, the "embodiment of the light" sounds like someone who's perfect, something I don't think she is. At least I hope she isn't or else the people who think she's a Mary Sue would never stop complaining.

I don't think she defeated him using the dark side itself, but she was pretty damn close to do it (see LEGO game, script, storybook, databank, all novels).

Piper Maru wrote:I don't think she defeated him using the dark side itself, but she was pretty damn close to do it (see LEGO game, script, storybook, databank, all novels).

@Piper Maru

So, everything except the movie?

Saracene wrote:

Piper Maru wrote:I don't think she defeated him using the dark side itself, but she was pretty damn close to do it (see LEGO game, script, storybook, databank, all novels).

@Piper Maru

So, everything except the movie?

@Saracene

It's not easy to portray that in a movie. I could be wrong, but I think the fact that she became sooo angry was supposed to give us a clue.

Moonlight13 wrote:

Saracene wrote:

Piper Maru wrote:I don't think she defeated him using the dark side itself, but she was pretty damn close to do it (see LEGO game, script, storybook, databank, all novels).

@Piper Maru

So, everything except the movie?

@Saracene

It's not easy to portray that in a movie. I could be wrong, but I think the fact that she became sooo angry was supposed to give us a clue.

@Moonlight13

I agree rather with @Moonlight13. What makes me think that Rey used the DS is the way she suddently went from to totally relaxed and peaceful to furious mode. I find much more aggressive than Obi-Wan in that scene. Plus the way the walks and  circle Kylo like a prey looks very alike with Anakin and Maul. I have never any StarWars character using her rage that way from the very beginning of the hero journey.

That's why I initially thought that she could have DS origins. The idea of Rey as a nobody coming from nowhere pleased me a lot. I never got very interested in investigating her origins because of what I understood from Maz's lines about her past not being so important in regard to her future. However, I must say that ReyKenobis gathered solid arguments in favor of Rey coming from the Kenobi lineage. I haven't changed my mind about it: on the one hand, I would find it great to have a Kenobi in the ST if well done either with Rey enabling Ben to bring balance to the Force or both of them doing that together. One the other hand, I kinda worried about what Lucas Film intends to do with this idea of "Rey is important for the entire galaxy". Lucas Films seems very eager to promote both Obi-Wan and Rey as such great caracters while pointing out even more the Skywalker flaws with Vader, Luke and Ben all going dark/mad. When I read so many comment on forums or You tube saying how great it would be to have the Kenobis becoming the center of  Star Wars and bringing the balance in the Force instead of the unsteady Skywalker, I kinda worry that a lot of people would want it and that Lucas Film would go this road too although I personally think that it makes no sense for the entire story. So when I go to the theaters in December, I will probably be more worried about this than Reylo not happening.

One again, nothing against Rey but unless she has some heavy bloody legacy behind her own lineage or the blood of billions of people on her hands by her own actions, she has nothing to prove to the entire galaxy that everyone should witness. However, it seems less and less probable that the screenwriter chose to go that road with her character although I agree with @Monnlight13 that the way she fought Kylo after the Force moment was DS-like (plus the last shot of the film where she ends up on the left side). Ben on the contrary has everything to prove because of the Skywalker bloody legacy and his own actions. I think that this is the main reason why I believe that he must be the one to save the galaxy from destruction and/or bringing balance to the Force. If Lucas Film really wants to have the last Skywalker redeemed and romatic Reylo happening, they can't go with the same kind of redemption path as Vader. The big stake that Bloodline brillantly pointed out is that Darth Vader's bloody legacy is heavy to bear for his heirs because his redemption was witnessed by one single person whose point of viewwas necessarily very subjective. We may blame Luke, Leia and Han for keeping the truth hidden from Ben but I can understand that they kept the lineage hidden to the entire galaxy. Who would have believed Luke if he had told that he was Darth Vader's son and that his father returned to the Light since nobody was there to witness it and no holocron recorded it for history  What's more, did Anakin/Vader's 30 seconds of lucidity saved the entire galaxy, brought balance to the Force and compensated the billions deaths his actions caused It was probably hard enough for Luke to convince his own sister, how could he have convinced billions of people whose relatives were killed by Vader's actions That's why, I believe that if Lucas Films wants Ben redeemed, having some peaceful life and having children who wouldn't suffer from the Skywalker bloody legacy, it requires that he saves the entire galaxy in some spectacular way, that everyone witness it and holocron record it for history.

Scarlet Heart Ryeo's current viewers, better not read (SPOILER):

Now maybe that Rian's new rules require two Chosen Ones to bring balance to the Force, which also sounds good: a male and a female Force user; from two different lineages, handling equally the DS and the LS of the Force

Moonlight13 wrote:

Saracene wrote:

Piper Maru wrote:I don't think she defeated him using the dark side itself, but she was pretty damn close to do it (see LEGO game, script, storybook, databank, all novels).

@Piper Maru

So, everything except the movie?

@Saracene

It's not easy to portray that in a movie. I could be wrong, but I think the fact that she became sooo angry was supposed to give us a clue.

@Moonlight13

It's a subjective feeling, a part of her internal world. She did not use it, but she felt it. They conveyed that by her anger and her predator-like stalk around Kylo. She cut his face just because. I thought it was obvious in the movie that precious people inspired by the light don't do that. The supporting material just backs this up.

Piper Maru wrote:

Moonlight13 wrote:

Saracene wrote:

Piper Maru wrote:I don't think she defeated him using the dark side itself, but she was pretty damn close to do it (see LEGO game, script, storybook, databank, all novels).

@Piper Maru

So, everything except the movie?

@Saracene

It's not easy to portray that in a movie. I could be wrong, but I think the fact that she became sooo angry was supposed to give us a clue.

@Moonlight13

It's a subjective feeling, a part of her internal world. She did not use it, but she felt it. They conveyed that by her anger and her predator-like stalk around Kylo. She cut his face just because. I thought it was obvious in the movie that precious people inspired by the light don't do that. The supporting material just backs this up.

@Piper Maru

I would agree with that. She felt it, got a taste for it and stopped just in time. My first reaction seeing that scene was "Oops, someone is dangerously leaning to the Dark Side" so I think it's there, but just like Luke, she stopped at the threshold and turned back. The predator-like stalk and the kick was when I started to like her. She's way more interesting to me when she loses her temper. Cutesy "Cosette" Rey has honestly zero appeal to me. At least she looks angry in the trailer when running towards whatever or whomever, so all hopes are high.

Rey/Kylo dynamic is the most interesting precisely because she throws Cinnamon Roll facade out of the window and goes full-blown Sinnamon Roll:

Lust:



Aggression:



Unnecessary cruelty:


Right into his blaster wound although he was barely standing on his feet anyway


After she disarmed him

You'll never convince me otherwise that Rey used the Darkside to defeat Kylo. Heck, she stalks around like Darth Maul, the villainiest of the villains right after she knocks him down.

IoJovi wrote:You'll never convince me otherwise that Rey used the Darkside to defeat Kylo. Heck, she stalks around like Darth Maul, the villainiest of the villains right after she knocks him down.

@IoJovi

I agree. IMO she was in a serious dark side usage zone until the earthquake makes her wake up, and then she has that "what the he'll just happened?" look on her face. They also say in the database that Kylo was no match for the power of her "rage". That is dark side terminology. I think you can use the dark side to a certain extent without actually "falling to the dark side." It took Vader a while, and for all his actions, I don't think Kylo has fully fallen, at least not in that Vader or Palpatine way. The light is still too much with him. I think the prequels and TFA showed that falling to the dark side is a process much more than ROTJ ever did. So Rey tapped into the dark side, but she is far from fallen.

I still think that part of what happened was years of having to swallow every single negative emotion she had in order to survive on Jakku came spilling out and she took it out on him. Especially because he'd gone after and hurt the first two people to be nice to her in like 15-16 years.

vaderito wrote:Rey/Kylo dynamic is the most interesting precisely because she throws Cinnamon Roll facade out of the window and goes full-blown Sinnamon Roll:

Lust:



Aggression:



Unnecessary cruelty:


Right into his blaster wound although he was barely standing on his feet anyway


After she disarmed him

@vaderito

I find it so interesting how she goes from full relax-mode to full rage-mode in just the blink of an eye and Kylo's little smile - as if he was satisfied - sudently vanishes. I still wonder what happened precisely between them at this moment  
- Did she got something from him or did she pull something from him?
- Did she realize that she went too far by accepting his proposal and made him pay for that?
- Did she fool him by accepting the proposal and sort of broke the deal?
- Did she simply lose control because the Force flew too intensively through her?
- Did she find the Force all by herself and Kylo couldn't do anything against it?
Really I am eager for their first conversation after they meet again because I guess that we will finally know what really happened there. Can't imagine that Kylo wouldn't mention that topic.Something tells me that the GA will be very surprised by the answer(s).

snufkin wrote:I still think that part of what happened was years of having to swallow every single negative emotion she had in order to survive on Jakku came spilling out and she took it out on him. Especially because he'd gone after and hurt the first two people to be nice to her in like 15-16 years.

@snufkin

It's not like she was nice on Jakku either, though. She used her staff in self defence but she has that rage in her when she first goes after Finn. I haven't got Rey's survival guide but I think there are some mentions of violent incidents in there, too. It is to be expected from a young woman who's grown up and survived in such a harsh environment. She's probably going to struggle with letting go of her anger, especially if the truth about her parents isn't what she imagined (which it almost certainly won't be).

Well, she goes after Finn because BB-8 told her that this guy stole Poe’s jacket. There’d be no reason for her to be nice, in those circumstances. And the whole thing is played more for the comical effect IMO.

Considering how sloppy JJ's approach to the characterisation is in TFA, where Rey and Finn are concerned at least, I really don't know how much real thought was given to these displays of anger from Rey. Like, did they go, "let's show that Rey is capable of great anger", or did they just have her knock Finn down because it makes for a more energetic and exciting scene than if she just came over and asked him questions?

Saracene wrote:Well, she goes after Finn because BB-8 told her that this guy stole Poe’s jacket. There’d be no reason for her to be nice, in those circumstances. And the whole thing is played more for the comical effect IMO.

@Saracene

There is being wary and then there is going instantly into rage mode and thrashing Finn. At the very least she has not been shown to be a big thinker when faced with a potential enemy. She goes right into "I will beat the s*** out of you/I will shoot you" almost very time. You could actually make the argument that it takes Kylo more time to go into rage mode, and that's saying something. IMO this kind of behavior from her is perfectly realistic. She has lived her whole life in a predator or prey kind of world. Making her not be full of rage would not fit IMO.