The Last Jedi: General Discussion

SoloSideCousin wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:



Hamill seems to debunk "dark" Luke (no surprise, imo).

@FrolickingFizzgig


Well that sucks. I know I am in the minority here, but there was so much more potential here, and Rian has gone with the depressed old mentor route.  There is nothing brave *at all* in that. It is honestly the most predictable route possible. It is literally "oh I am an old man burned by life who is in my 'get off my lawn' hidey hole until a wonderful young girl brings me back to life." That is completely Hallmark movie at its essence. And forget about "DarkLuke" that frequently gets narrowed down to cackling Luke though no one here ever envisioned that, this article debunks uber-light-side Luke, mentally unbalanced Luke, Jekyll and Hyde Luke, even Misguided-about-how-the force works Luke. Wow. I expected a lot more than this from Rian.

But perhaps Rian is not that brave at all. Perhaps Luke needs to be marketed as dark to prepare the audience for the mere fact that Luke won't be perfect.

I kept telling my husband that I believed that overall TLJ would be stronger, that really interesting stuff would happen outside of Kylo and Reylo scenes. Yeah, not saying that anymore. Maybe Poe will get more interesting, so that will help. But in the end it looks like it will be Kylo and Reylo carrying the innovative and brave sector of the movie. What a waste. And thank God for Adam Driver.

@SoloSideCousin

I've never been a big believer in Dark!Luke, but there's definitely something more to this story than depressed old mentor, IMO. I still believe that.

Mark does say, "The entire movie is filled with these kinds of jaw-dropping surprises, but you'll just have to see the film itself to discover what they are."

The dark side Luke theory never worked for me from the same reason "Luke is Rey's dad" doesn't work.

The both choices bring back Luke into the focus of the story. Which is not the case in the ST - it was debunked already for several times.

Luke as a sort of an antagonist for sure, when it comes to his relation with Rey, but not Luke who has fallen to the dark side.

DarthRen wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:



Hamill seems to debunk "dark" Luke (no surprise, imo).

@FrolickingFizzgig


Well that sucks. I know I am in the minority here, but there was so much more potential here, and Rian has gone with the depressed old mentor route.  There is nothing brave *at all* in that. It is honestly the most predictable route possible. It is literally "oh I am an old man burned by life who is in my 'get off my lawn' hidey hole until a wonderful young girl brings me back to life." That is completely Hallmark movie at its essence. And forget about "DarkLuke" that frequently gets narrowed down to cackling Luke though no one here ever envisioned that, this article debunks uber-light-side Luke, mentally unbalanced Luke, Jekyll and Hyde Luke, even Misguided-about-how-the force works Luke. Wow. I expected a lot more than this from Rian.

But perhaps Rian is not that brave at all. Perhaps Luke needs to be marketed as dark to prepare the audience for the mere fact that Luke won't be perfect.

I kept telling my husband that I believed that overall TLJ would be stronger, that really interesting stuff would happen outside of Kylo and Reylo scenes. Yeah, not saying that anymore. Maybe Poe will get more interesting, so that will help. But in the end it looks like it will be Kylo and Reylo carrying the innovative and brave sector of the movie. What a waste. And thank God for Adam Driver.

@SoloSideCousin

I don't think it rules it out and remember Mark is under NDA, so can't even talk much more than in vague references how Luke is different. This is really not telling as much beyond Evil!Luke which wasn't a very good idea to begin with. Still he could've done bad things out of a good will, that he really believed in one way of interpretating things and screwed it up.

One thing is clearly, it's not gonna be as edgy as some people think. Which takes me to Reylo, they might play it safe a little bit, not the way many of us would love to. They have to protect OT characters but also new main hero in a way. So, I guess Rian had to compromise on various things.

@DarthRen

Actually it does debunk those possibilities because Luke would need some confidence in his decision-making abilities for those options. He might have pulled some misguided crap in the past, but he's basically in depression-like decision paralysis in the movie until someone (presumably Rey) inspires him to climb out of his angsty, mental-paralysis hidey hole.

Darth Dingbat wrote:

@SoloSideCousin

I've never been a big believer in Dark!Luke, but there's definitely something more to this story than depressed old mentor, IMO. I still believe that.

Mark does say, "The entire movie is filled with these kinds of jaw-dropping surprises, but you'll just have to see the film itself to discover what they are."

@Darth Dingbat

This. I never expected Luke to be dark. Going dark in SW fundamentally changes someone in a way that Luke hasn't changed, and it would overshadow the story of Kylo going dark.

However, I think you're right that there is more to Luke's (and Kylo's) backstory. I'm curious to see what all these "jaw-dropping surprises" are that Mark mentions and how some will relate to Kylo and Luke.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

DarthRen wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:



Hamill seems to debunk "dark" Luke (no surprise, imo).

@FrolickingFizzgig


Well that sucks. I know I am in the minority here, but there was so much more potential here, and Rian has gone with the depressed old mentor route.  There is nothing brave *at all* in that. It is honestly the most predictable route possible. It is literally "oh I am an old man burned by life who is in my 'get off my lawn' hidey hole until a wonderful young girl brings me back to life." That is completely Hallmark movie at its essence. And forget about "DarkLuke" that frequently gets narrowed down to cackling Luke though no one here ever envisioned that, this article debunks uber-light-side Luke, mentally unbalanced Luke, Jekyll and Hyde Luke, even Misguided-about-how-the force works Luke. Wow. I expected a lot more than this from Rian.

But perhaps Rian is not that brave at all. Perhaps Luke needs to be marketed as dark to prepare the audience for the mere fact that Luke won't be perfect.

I kept telling my husband that I believed that overall TLJ would be stronger, that really interesting stuff would happen outside of Kylo and Reylo scenes. Yeah, not saying that anymore. Maybe Poe will get more interesting, so that will help. But in the end it looks like it will be Kylo and Reylo carrying the innovative and brave sector of the movie. What a waste. And thank God for Adam Driver.

@SoloSideCousin

I don't think it rules it out and remember Mark is under NDA, so can't even talk much more than in vague references how Luke is different. This is really not telling as much beyond Evil!Luke which wasn't a very good idea to begin with. Still he could've done bad things out of a good will, that he really believed in one way of interpretating things and screwed it up.

One thing is clearly, it's not gonna be as edgy as some people think. Which takes me to Reylo, they might play it safe a little bit, not the way many of us would love to. They have to protect OT characters but also new main hero in a way. So, I guess Rian had to compromise on various things.

@DarthRen

Actually it does debunk those possibilities because Luke would need some confidence in his decision-making abilities for those options. He might have pulled some misguided crap in the past, but he's basically in depression-like decision paralysis in the movie until someone (presumably Rey) inspires him to climb out of his angsty, mental-paralysis hidey hole.

@SoloSideCousin

At this point I still believe that these theories are in the play. He is in this state NOW but what happened in the past is unknown. You can't expect from any actors to give you these answers before the movie. Mark even said there are jaw-dropping moments related to his character mental state, so he's kinda of going around it but can't really talk too much about specifics. Much like Adam, Daisy, John general quotes about how all of the characters will struggle between sides when it really might be Kylo, Luke and Rey.

Mark ruled out Dark!Luke and he did that already on twitter but rest of the theories are up for grabs. You have to have in mind, they're not gonna do drastic changes but still good people can make bad choices out of their way of thinking. They think it's the right thing to do and it isn't. Same for Kylo, he truly believes in his cause.

Adam even said Ben had a one sided education. Luke might have meant in a good way but he was too much about the Light, too extremist about it. So much that he thinks Jedi must end for the sake of everyone. He could've pushed Ben to the dark side and he had a good intentions. It'snot as clear as it may appear.

I didn't expected some edgy movie because it's Disney after all, so in a way they'll play it safe but also I believe at this point that Rian compromised on things for classic OT, PT fans and new fans of ST:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

Well that sucks. I know I am in the minority here, but there was so much more potential here, and Rian has gone with the depressed old mentor route.  There is nothing brave *at all* in that. It is honestly the most predictable route possible. It is literally "oh I am an old man burned by life who is in my 'get off my lawn' hidey hole until a wonderful young girl brings me back to life." That is completely Hallmark movie at its essence. And forget about "DarkLuke" that frequently gets narrowed down to cackling Luke though no one here ever envisioned that, this article debunks uber-light-side Luke, mentally unbalanced Luke, Jekyll and Hyde Luke, even Misguided-about-how-the force works Luke. Wow. I expected a lot more than this from Rian.

But perhaps Rian is not that brave at all. Perhaps Luke needs to be marketed as dark to prepare the audience for the mere fact that Luke won't be perfect.

I kept telling my husband that I believed that overall TLJ would be stronger, that really interesting stuff would happen outside of Kylo and Reylo scenes. Yeah, not saying that anymore. Maybe Poe will get more interesting, so that will help. But in the end it looks like it will be Kylo and Reylo carrying the innovative and brave sector of the movie. What a waste. And thank God for Adam Driver.

@SoloSideCousin

I would not be as harsh. I would be diasppointed if Luke was the same as 20-yeard old Luke, brandishing a light-saber and piloting an x-wing shooting at the bad guys. Or if Luke was just doing a Yoda while teaching Rey. It seems we will have neither of these, but rather an older wiser Luke, who has been affected by his experiences so far (his nephew turning to the dark side and his jedi puils murdered, for which he may feel partly responsible). Also it seems that Luke will have studied the books in the old Jedi temple and discovering new things about the Jedi or what came before them, so that is also interesting. So I am really happy with what we seem to be getting from Luke's character.

The interesting characters who will face dillemmas and change are moslty Rey and Kylo. I am fine with that. Not every single supproting character can have meaningful and unexpected development in a <3hr movie. It is just not possible. Plus RJ has to work with the characters available as established so far in TFA. For example Poe has no personality whatsoever in TFA (he is just a good pilot, loyal to the resistance and brave: he did not spill the beans aobut the map when 'questioned' by the FO in the traditional way (of course he could not keep the map's whereabouts from Kylo, but no one would blame him for that). But that's it. Now Rian may try to make him slighlty more interesting (eg there is this argument with Leia where she slaps him), but after all this is not Poe's movie. So I would not have unrealistic expectations.

Kylo Rey wrote:

Birdwoman wrote:I watched the movie version of West Side Story (the one from the 60's with Natalie Wood), interesting thing is that the director of that film used lots of red in the film.  The sets and the use of red is very similar to what Rian seems to be doing in his film TLJ.  It was interesting.  

@Birdwoman

That's some really cool insight! I noticed that Rian seems to be using a LOT of close ups with intimate and dynamic angles. Feels quite indie-ish at times. I feel like someone should create a TLJ cinematography thread as I've seen a lot of great posts touching on this subject in the last few days.

@Kylo Rey

Please do! That would be an awesome thread. Anyone interested in the topic is welcome to open this thread, otherwise one of the staff can do it later.

DarthRen wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

DarthRen wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:



Hamill seems to debunk "dark" Luke (no surprise, imo).

@FrolickingFizzgig


Well that sucks. I know I am in the minority here, but there was so much more potential here, and Rian has gone with the depressed old mentor route.  There is nothing brave *at all* in that. It is honestly the most predictable route possible. It is literally "oh I am an old man burned by life who is in my 'get off my lawn' hidey hole until a wonderful young girl brings me back to life." That is completely Hallmark movie at its essence. And forget about "DarkLuke" that frequently gets narrowed down to cackling Luke though no one here ever envisioned that, this article debunks uber-light-side Luke, mentally unbalanced Luke, Jekyll and Hyde Luke, even Misguided-about-how-the force works Luke. Wow. I expected a lot more than this from Rian.

But perhaps Rian is not that brave at all. Perhaps Luke needs to be marketed as dark to prepare the audience for the mere fact that Luke won't be perfect.

I kept telling my husband that I believed that overall TLJ would be stronger, that really interesting stuff would happen outside of Kylo and Reylo scenes. Yeah, not saying that anymore. Maybe Poe will get more interesting, so that will help. But in the end it looks like it will be Kylo and Reylo carrying the innovative and brave sector of the movie. What a waste. And thank God for Adam Driver.

@SoloSideCousin

I don't think it rules it out and remember Mark is under NDA, so can't even talk much more than in vague references how Luke is different. This is really not telling as much beyond Evil!Luke which wasn't a very good idea to begin with. Still he could've done bad things out of a good will, that he really believed in one way of interpretating things and screwed it up.

One thing is clearly, it's not gonna be as edgy as some people think. Which takes me to Reylo, they might play it safe a little bit, not the way many of us would love to. They have to protect OT characters but also new main hero in a way. So, I guess Rian had to compromise on various things.

@DarthRen

Actually it does debunk those possibilities because Luke would need some confidence in his decision-making abilities for those options. He might have pulled some misguided crap in the past, but he's basically in depression-like decision paralysis in the movie until someone (presumably Rey) inspires him to climb out of his angsty, mental-paralysis hidey hole.

@SoloSideCousin

At this point I still believe that these theories are in the play. He is in this state NOW but what happened in the past is unknown. You can't expect from any actors to give you these answers before the movie. Mark even said there are jaw-dropping moments related to his character mental state, so he's kinda of going around it but can't really talk too much about specifics. Much like Adam, Daisy, John general quotes about how all of the characters will struggle between sides when it really might be Kylo, Luke and Rey.

Mark ruled out Dark!Luke and he did that already on twitter but rest of the theories are up for grabs. You have to have in mind, they're not gonna do drastic changes but still good people can make bad choices out of their way of thinking. They think it's the right thing to do and it isn't. Same for Kylo, he truly believes in his cause.

Adam even said Ben had a one sided education. Luke might have meant in a good way but he was too much about the Light, too extremist about it. So much that he thinks Jedi must end for the sake of everyone. He could've pushed Ben to the dark side and he had a good intentions. It'snot as clear as it may appear.

I didn't expected some edgy movie because it's Disney after all, so in a way they'll play it safe but also I believe at this point that Rian compromised on things for classic OT, PT fans and new fans of ST:

@DarthRen

Anything remain possible but yeah it doesn't seem like we get Luke turns to the DS in the end. The idea of "depressed" Luke rather pleases me because I have never expected Luke to change side and be the villain by the end of TLJ:
-  First, because we would get a rehash of Vader's arc in ROTJ
- Second, because it would move the central relationship from Kylo and Rey to Luke and Rey, with Luke becoming the center of the ST
- Third, because I have never thought that Luke going to the DS would be a big emotional shock and raise a major emotional conflict. We've spent 2 years saying that Rey shouldn't be Luke's daughter. Since she is the heroine, she would have to redeem him. But why would she go after a old man who is neither her belonging behind (father) nor her belonging ahead (love interest) to redeem him? Leia would be the best candidate but the twins ain't the central relationship of the ST. As for Kylo, I doubt that he would be emotionally shaken by his uncle's fall, and they don't represent the central relationship of the ST

That's why, I don't believe in Luke falling ultimately to the DS. He may be an antagonist - maybe even a LS fanatic - at some point but I tend to think that he will be back into action by the end of TLJ.

Rian said that he wanted each character to face their biggest challenge. I think that Luke's biggest challenge is to face Leia for his past mistakes and goes beyond his guilt feeling to comes back to his youngest self, the farmboy full of ideals who became a galactic hero. I suppose that Rey's biggest challenge will be to let go of the past after learning abut her family's fate and accept to move on to find her belonging ahead. As for Kylo's, I suppose that his biggest challenge will be to draw the consequences of the patricide by breaking his long-time abusive relationship with Snoke.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:



Hamill seems to debunk "dark" Luke (no surprise, imo).

@FrolickingFizzgig


Well that sucks. I know I am in the minority here, but there was so much more potential here, and Rian has gone with the depressed old mentor route.  There is nothing brave *at all* in that. It is honestly the most predictable route possible. It is literally "oh I am an old man burned by life who is in my 'get off my lawn' hidey hole until a wonderful young girl brings me back to life." That is completely Hallmark movie at its essence. And forget about "DarkLuke" that frequently gets narrowed down to cackling Luke though no one here ever envisioned that, this article debunks uber-light-side Luke, mentally unbalanced Luke, Jekyll and Hyde Luke, even Misguided-about-how-the force works Luke. Wow. I expected a lot more than this from Rian.

But perhaps Rian is not that brave at all. Perhaps Luke needs to be marketed as dark to prepare the audience for the mere fact that Luke won't be perfect.

I kept telling my husband that I believed that overall TLJ would be stronger, that really interesting stuff would happen outside of Kylo and Reylo scenes. Yeah, not saying that anymore. Maybe Poe will get more interesting, so that will help. But in the end it looks like it will be Kylo and Reylo carrying the innovative and brave sector of the movie. What a waste. And thank God for Adam Driver.

@SoloSideCousin

This still doesn’t discount über lightside Luke or Luke making mistakes that contributed to Ben’s fall. I’m sure whatever is in store, it doesn’t involve our golden boy being the main hero and the one to save the day. I still feel the main theme is ridding oneself of black and white thinking, which I’m sure contributed to create the rift between Ben and Luke, and integrating oneself, dark and light, to become whole again.

reylo1992 wrote:

DarthRen wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

DarthRen wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:



Hamill seems to debunk "dark" Luke (no surprise, imo).

@FrolickingFizzgig


Well that sucks. I know I am in the minority here, but there was so much more potential here, and Rian has gone with the depressed old mentor route.  There is nothing brave *at all* in that. It is honestly the most predictable route possible. It is literally "oh I am an old man burned by life who is in my 'get off my lawn' hidey hole until a wonderful young girl brings me back to life." That is completely Hallmark movie at its essence. And forget about "DarkLuke" that frequently gets narrowed down to cackling Luke though no one here ever envisioned that, this article debunks uber-light-side Luke, mentally unbalanced Luke, Jekyll and Hyde Luke, even Misguided-about-how-the force works Luke. Wow. I expected a lot more than this from Rian.

But perhaps Rian is not that brave at all. Perhaps Luke needs to be marketed as dark to prepare the audience for the mere fact that Luke won't be perfect.

I kept telling my husband that I believed that overall TLJ would be stronger, that really interesting stuff would happen outside of Kylo and Reylo scenes. Yeah, not saying that anymore. Maybe Poe will get more interesting, so that will help. But in the end it looks like it will be Kylo and Reylo carrying the innovative and brave sector of the movie. What a waste. And thank God for Adam Driver.

@SoloSideCousin

I don't think it rules it out and remember Mark is under NDA, so can't even talk much more than in vague references how Luke is different. This is really not telling as much beyond Evil!Luke which wasn't a very good idea to begin with. Still he could've done bad things out of a good will, that he really believed in one way of interpretating things and screwed it up.

One thing is clearly, it's not gonna be as edgy as some people think. Which takes me to Reylo, they might play it safe a little bit, not the way many of us would love to. They have to protect OT characters but also new main hero in a way. So, I guess Rian had to compromise on various things.

@DarthRen

Actually it does debunk those possibilities because Luke would need some confidence in his decision-making abilities for those options. He might have pulled some misguided crap in the past, but he's basically in depression-like decision paralysis in the movie until someone (presumably Rey) inspires him to climb out of his angsty, mental-paralysis hidey hole.

@SoloSideCousin

At this point I still believe that these theories are in the play. He is in this state NOW but what happened in the past is unknown. You can't expect from any actors to give you these answers before the movie. Mark even said there are jaw-dropping moments related to his character mental state, so he's kinda of going around it but can't really talk too much about specifics. Much like Adam, Daisy, John general quotes about how all of the characters will struggle between sides when it really might be Kylo, Luke and Rey.

Mark ruled out Dark!Luke and he did that already on twitter but rest of the theories are up for grabs. You have to have in mind, they're not gonna do drastic changes but still good people can make bad choices out of their way of thinking. They think it's the right thing to do and it isn't. Same for Kylo, he truly believes in his cause.

Adam even said Ben had a one sided education. Luke might have meant in a good way but he was too much about the Light, too extremist about it. So much that he thinks Jedi must end for the sake of everyone. He could've pushed Ben to the dark side and he had a good intentions. It'snot as clear as it may appear.

I didn't expected some edgy movie because it's Disney after all, so in a way they'll play it safe but also I believe at this point that Rian compromised on things for classic OT, PT fans and new fans of ST:

@DarthRen

Anything remain possible but yeah it doesn't seem like we get Luke turns to the DS in the end. The idea of "depressed" Luke rather pleases me because I have never expected Luke to change side and be the villain by the end of TLJ:
-  First, because we would get a rehash of Vader's arc in ROTJ
- Second, because it would move the central relationship from Kylo and Rey to Luke and Rey, with Luke becoming the center of the ST
- Third, because I have never thought that Luke going to the DS would be a big emotional shock and raise a major emotional conflict. We've spent 2 years saying that Rey shouldn't be Luke's daughter. Since she is the heroine, she would have to redeem him. But why would she go after a old man who is neither her belonging behind (father) nor her belonging ahead (love interest) to redeem him? Leia would be thebest candidate but the twins ain't the central relationship of the ST. As for Kylo, I doubt that he would be shaken by his uncle's fall

That's why, I don't believe in Luke falling ultimately to the DS. He may be an antagonist - maybe even a LS fanatic - at some point but I tend to think that he will be back into action by the end of TLJ. Rian said that he wanted each character to face their biggest challenge: I think that Luke's biggest challenge is to face Leia for his past mistakes and goes beyond his guilt feeling to comes back to his youngest self, the farmboy full of ideals who became a galactic hero. I suppose that Rey's biggest challenge will be to let go of the past after learning abut her family's fate and accept to move on. As for Kylo's, I suppose that his biggest challenge will be to draw the consequences of the patricide by breaking his abusive relationship with Snoke.

@reylo1992

My problem is not about Luke literally not "falling to the darkside." I have used the term "Dark Luke" as a catch-all for a lot of theories, practically none of which have pointed to a situation where Luke literally "falls" to the dark side Anakin-style.  I guess I have never expressed myself well because almost every response here zeroes in on "Luke won't fall to the dark side." Mentally unbalanced Luke, uber-Light Luke, wrongheaded force user Luke, Jekyll and Hyde Luke, NihilisticLuke ... *none* of these entail Luke falling to the dark side. None.  

*However,*, each of those options require some confidence in decision-making on Luke's part, something that MH just explicitly said that Luke does not have.  Luke can't be a zealot or wrongheaded if he can't make a decision.  If he was mentally imbalanced he would have confidence in his decisions even in they were not based in reality.  Not being able to make a decision is just plain old depression and that's it.

These new movies had an incredible potential to break new ground, to raise the bar on tentpole movies.  If they are afraid to make Luke anything more than depressed, which is the most obvious result of what happened to him, they are afraid to do a lot more stuff.

Messing with Luke signaled creative innovation to me.  It signaled that they were trying to push the boundaries.  By making Luke into the "old, disillusioned old man," and selling it as some "big change", when it is anything but, tells me they are not pushing much at all.  Like I said, they may still push with Kylo, because they feel like they can experiment with him.

But by putting certain creative options "off-limits", they are severely limiting the creative potential inherent in the material, and that is a huge waste of opportunity.  I couldn't care less about Luke.  What I care about is loss of potential, and it appears that there is a ton of that happening here.

Dark!Luke never made sense to me, because a major feature of a bad guy/antagonist is that they’re active and tend to have a plan. Luke was sitting on an island in a middle of nowhere, doing nothing much. What was his plan or threat exactly?

I also really doubt that they’re going to pin much responsibility for Ben’s fall on Luke, at least not in an explicit way. In the same way that TFA never really delved much into the whole issue of whether Han and Leia were good parents and how much it contributed to Ben’s fall. We had bits from the actors and JJ in interviews, but the movie itself largely bypassed it.

Darth Rowan wrote:

Kylo Rey wrote:

Birdwoman wrote:I watched the movie version of West Side Story (the one from the 60's with Natalie Wood), interesting thing is that the director of that film used lots of red in the film.  The sets and the use of red is very similar to what Rian seems to be doing in his film TLJ.  It was interesting.  

@Birdwoman

That's some really cool insight! I noticed that Rian seems to be using a LOT of close ups with intimate and dynamic angles. Feels quite indie-ish at times. I feel like someone should create a TLJ cinematography thread as I've seen a lot of great posts touching on this subject in the last few days.

@Kylo Rey

Please do! That would be an awesome thread. Anyone interested in the topic is welcome to open this thread, otherwise one of the staff can do it later.

@Darth Rowan

I’ll do it in a sec with a copy paste of my earlier post. There was also one from @panki about classic films she was reminded of, like My Fair Lady for Canto Biggt

I never thought dark Luke would fully be a thing either. In fact, as I said recently in another thread, I think all of the "daring" and "ambiguous" elements of this movie aren't going to be considered much of such when we all come out of the theater. I really think that only Kylo will be tested to the point of wavering between two very different positions.

My only hope for TLJ Luke was that he be portrayed as in the wrong in some respect, or that Ben Solo's turn is to some degree on his shoulders. And that Rey is given good reason to have some tension with him. So I'm only hoping that we don't just get sad, cynical old Luke who feels guilty for things he shouldn't. I'm hoping for a liiiiittle more narrative bite than that, but at this point I'm not holding my breath. In the end, it's true that it's for the best if he not have a level of conflict that encroaches too much on the main narrative place that belongs to Rey and Kylo.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

reylo1992 wrote:

DarthRen wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

DarthRen wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:



Hamill seems to debunk "dark" Luke (no surprise, imo).

@FrolickingFizzgig


Well that sucks. I know I am in the minority here, but there was so much more potential here, and Rian has gone with the depressed old mentor route.  There is nothing brave *at all* in that. It is honestly the most predictable route possible. It is literally "oh I am an old man burned by life who is in my 'get off my lawn' hidey hole until a wonderful young girl brings me back to life." That is completely Hallmark movie at its essence. And forget about "DarkLuke" that frequently gets narrowed down to cackling Luke though no one here ever envisioned that, this article debunks uber-light-side Luke, mentally unbalanced Luke, Jekyll and Hyde Luke, even Misguided-about-how-the force works Luke. Wow. I expected a lot more than this from Rian.

But perhaps Rian is not that brave at all. Perhaps Luke needs to be marketed as dark to prepare the audience for the mere fact that Luke won't be perfect.

I kept telling my husband that I believed that overall TLJ would be stronger, that really interesting stuff would happen outside of Kylo and Reylo scenes. Yeah, not saying that anymore. Maybe Poe will get more interesting, so that will help. But in the end it looks like it will be Kylo and Reylo carrying the innovative and brave sector of the movie. What a waste. And thank God for Adam Driver.

@SoloSideCousin

I don't think it rules it out and remember Mark is under NDA, so can't even talk much more than in vague references how Luke is different. This is really not telling as much beyond Evil!Luke which wasn't a very good idea to begin with. Still he could've done bad things out of a good will, that he really believed in one way of interpretating things and screwed it up.

One thing is clearly, it's not gonna be as edgy as some people think. Which takes me to Reylo, they might play it safe a little bit, not the way many of us would love to. They have to protect OT characters but also new main hero in a way. So, I guess Rian had to compromise on various things.

@DarthRen

Actually it does debunk those possibilities because Luke would need some confidence in his decision-making abilities for those options. He might have pulled some misguided crap in the past, but he's basically in depression-like decision paralysis in the movie until someone (presumably Rey) inspires him to climb out of his angsty, mental-paralysis hidey hole.

@SoloSideCousin

At this point I still believe that these theories are in the play. He is in this state NOW but what happened in the past is unknown. You can't expect from any actors to give you these answers before the movie. Mark even said there are jaw-dropping moments related to his character mental state, so he's kinda of going around it but can't really talk too much about specifics. Much like Adam, Daisy, John general quotes about how all of the characters will struggle between sides when it really might be Kylo, Luke and Rey.

Mark ruled out Dark!Luke and he did that already on twitter but rest of the theories are up for grabs. You have to have in mind, they're not gonna do drastic changes but still good people can make bad choices out of their way of thinking. They think it's the right thing to do and it isn't. Same for Kylo, he truly believes in his cause.

Adam even said Ben had a one sided education. Luke might have meant in a good way but he was too much about the Light, too extremist about it. So much that he thinks Jedi must end for the sake of everyone. He could've pushed Ben to the dark side and he had a good intentions. It'snot as clear as it may appear.

I didn't expected some edgy movie because it's Disney after all, so in a way they'll play it safe but also I believe at this point that Rian compromised on things for classic OT, PT fans and new fans of ST:

@DarthRen

Anything remain possible but yeah it doesn't seem like we get Luke turns to the DS in the end. The idea of "depressed" Luke rather pleases me because I have never expected Luke to change side and be the villain by the end of TLJ:
-  First, because we would get a rehash of Vader's arc in ROTJ
- Second, because it would move the central relationship from Kylo and Rey to Luke and Rey, with Luke becoming the center of the ST
- Third, because I have never thought that Luke going to the DS would be a big emotional shock and raise a major emotional conflict. We've spent 2 years saying that Rey shouldn't be Luke's daughter. Since she is the heroine, she would have to redeem him. But why would she go after a old man who is neither her belonging behind (father) nor her belonging ahead (love interest) to redeem him? Leia would be thebest candidate but the twins ain't the central relationship of the ST. As for Kylo, I doubt that he would be shaken by his uncle's fall

That's why, I don't believe in Luke falling ultimately to the DS. He may be an antagonist - maybe even a LS fanatic - at some point but I tend to think that he will be back into action by the end of TLJ. Rian said that he wanted each character to face their biggest challenge: I think that Luke's biggest challenge is to face Leia for his past mistakes and goes beyond his guilt feeling to comes back to his youngest self, the farmboy full of ideals who became a galactic hero. I suppose that Rey's biggest challenge will be to let go of the past after learning abut her family's fate and accept to move on. As for Kylo's, I suppose that his biggest challenge will be to draw the consequences of the patricide by breaking his abusive relationship with Snoke.

@reylo1992

My problem is not about Luke literally not "falling to the darkside." I have used the term "Dark Luke" as a catch-all for a lot of theories, practically none of which have pointed to a situation where Luke literally "falls" to the dark side Anakin-style.  I guess I have never expressed myself well because almost every response here zeroes in on "Luke won't fall to the dark side." Mentally unbalanced Luke, uber-Light Luke, wrongheaded force user Luke, Jekyll and Hyde Luke, NihilisticLuke ... *none* of these entail Luke falling to the dark side. None.  

*However,*, each of those options require some confidence in decision-making on Luke's part, something that MH just explicitly said that Luke does not have.  Luke can't be a zealot or wrongheaded if he can't make a decision.  If he was mentally imbalanced he would have confidence in his decisions even in they were not based in reality.  Not being able to make a decision is just plain old depression and that's it.

These new movies had an incredible potential to break new ground, to raise the bar on tentpole movies.  If they are afraid to make Luke anything more than depressed, which is the most obvious result of what happened to him, they are afraid to do a lot more stuff.

Messing with Luke signaled creative innovation to me.  It signaled that they were trying to push the boundaries.  By making Luke into the "old, disillusioned old man," and selling it as some "big change", when it is anything but, tells me they are not pushing much at all.  Like I said, they may still push with Kylo, because they feel like they can experiment with him.

But by putting certain creative options "off-limits", they are severely limiting the creative potential inherent in the material, and that is a huge waste of opportunity.  I couldn't care less about Luke.  What I care about is loss of potential, and it appears that there is a ton of that happening here.

@SoloSideCousin

I'm not going to judge how Luke's been portrayed until I see the movie since there might be surprised we're unaware however you can be totally right and honestly I won't be surprised if Rian had more creative control and was allowed to experiment with the newer characters more than he was with OT like Luke or Leia.I mean I would love if we got to see them being more bold in their portrayal of Luke(and by that I don't men strictly dark Luke because even the EU tried a lot of different variations with him) but unfortunately Disney might not have allowed him to go that far since the OT trio has been ingrained in the minds of the fans as being this good,heroic untouchable heroes while the new characters have more potential since they haven't yet become as iconic as the old trio.
I don't know maybe it's because Luke(and Han and Leia)weren't from my generation so I don't care much about how he's portrayed but personally what I would hate if if the younger generation remained static through the whole trilogy that would truly be a lost potential.
The time has passed for the OT to have more stories being told about them on screen the way you can with character like Kylo,Finn and Rey so if they plan on to continuing telling stories about them we need to see them face challenges and change from the characters we encountered at the beginning. I'm sure that will be the case with Kylo and I really hope the same will happen with Finn and Rey as well.

Always thought Luke would be how Kasdan wanted him at the end of the ST, a little too weird and mystical after what he experienced with Vader, so he wanders off like a ronin Samurai. I do think some of the antagonism between him and Rey is that she’ll be angry that he’d reject returning to his sister after everything she’s lost.

snufkin wrote:

Darth Rowan wrote:

Kylo Rey wrote:

Birdwoman wrote:I watched the movie version of West Side Story (the one from the 60's with Natalie Wood), interesting thing is that the director of that film used lots of red in the film.  The sets and the use of red is very similar to what Rian seems to be doing in his film TLJ.  It was interesting.  

@Birdwoman

That's some really cool insight! I noticed that Rian seems to be using a LOT of close ups with intimate and dynamic angles. Feels quite indie-ish at times. I feel like someone should create a TLJ cinematography thread as I've seen a lot of great posts touching on this subject in the last few days.

@Kylo Rey

Please do! That would be an awesome thread. Anyone interested in the topic is welcome to open this thread, otherwise one of the staff can do it later.

@Darth Rowan

I’ll do it in a sec with a copy paste of my earlier post. There was also one from @panki about classic films she was reminded of, like My Fair Lady for Canto Biggt

@snufkin

Thank you!

Saracene wrote:Dark!Luke never made sense to me, because a major feature of a bad guy/antagonist is that they’re active and tend to have a plan. Luke was sitting on an island in a middle of nowhere, doing nothing much. What was his plan or threat exactly?

I also really doubt that they’re going to pin much responsibility for Ben’s fall on Luke, at least not in an explicit way. In the same way that TFA never really delved much into the whole issue of whether Han and Leia were good parents and how much it contributed to Ben’s fall. We had bits from the actors and JJ in interviews, but the movie itself largely bypassed it.

@Saracene

ZioRen wrote:I never thought dark Luke would fully be a thing either. In fact, as I said recently in another thread, I think all of the "daring" and "ambiguous" elements of this movie aren't going to be considered much of such when we all come out of the theater. I really think that only Kylo will be tested to the point of wavering between two very different positions.

My only hope for TLJ Luke was that he be portrayed as in the wrong in some respect, or that Ben Solo's turn is to some degree on his shoulders. And that Rey is given good reason to have some tension with him. So I'm only hoping that we don't just get sad, cynical old Luke who feels guilty for things he shouldn't. I'm hoping for a liiiiittle more narrative bite than that, but at this point I'm not holding my breath. In the end, it's true that it's for the best if he not have a level of conflict that encroaches too much on the main narrative place that belongs to Rey and Kylo.

@ZioRen

Well if what you both say is true, and that they won't be daring outside of Kylo *and* Kylo basically turned and killed everybody because he was essentially a punk b****, and not because his parents or Luke ever did a thing to him, then I will be aggravated at myself for putting so much time into discussing what will largely be an extremely tepid project.  And if Disney thinks that the "safe route" is the way to go in an international box office environment that is imploding because 8 times out of 10 prestige TV tells a better story, then they are idiots.

Whatever.  I'll get over it.  TFA was the Kylo Ren and Reylo show for me, then TLJ can be the same thing.  Of course, if TLJ makes Luke the depressed, but the inherently sensitive and saintly Jedi, while Kylo the selfish a** laid waste to everything because he was upset at Luke for basically nothing, then it will strictly be the Adam Driver show for me from then on out.

No offense, but I really hope you both are wrong in your predictions, especially the "Luke probably didn't do anything wrong" one.  Milquetoast Luke is lame, but the character can be somewhat salvaged by a "did some bad sith in the past" Luke, a possibility that thankfully *was not* debunked by the article at all, because Luke needs to be "haunted" by something.  

I mean everyone likes what they like, but if I consistently thought the movie was going to go like you say, I would be here for people and Adam Driver awesomeness and nothing else.

@SoloSideCousin It doesn't have to go from one extreme to another though. Luke not getting blame for Ben's turning doesn't have to mean that Ben will turn out to be a horrible selfish punk b**** who betrayed his saintly uncle and parents (a prediction which BTW I believe I never made).

Saracene wrote:@SoloSideCousin It doesn't have to go from one extreme to another though. Luke not getting blame for Ben's turning doesn't have to mean that Ben will turn out to be a horrible selfish punk b**** who betrayed his saintly uncle and parents (a prediction which BTW I believe I never made).

@Saracene

I don't think that Luke will take all the blame but if we follow what Mark said to EW, he seems haunted by a pretty strong guilt feeling.

"[Luke] made a huge mistake in thinking that his nephew was the chosen one, so he invested everything he had in Kylo, much like Obi-Wan did with my character. And he is betrayed, with tragic consequences. Luke feels responsible for that. That’s the primary obstacle he has to rejoining the world and his place in the Jedi hierarchy, you know? It’s that guilt, that feeling that it’s his fault, that he didn’t detect the darkness in him until it was too late

Luke is not a coward but he maybe thinks that he is not worth any more to be in front of this fight against Snoke and the FO. But sooner or later like all other characters he'll have to let go of the past to move on and thus face his biggest challenge to come back.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

Saracene wrote:Dark!Luke never made sense to me, because a major feature of a bad guy/antagonist is that they’re active and tend to have a plan. Luke was sitting on an island in a middle of nowhere, doing nothing much. What was his plan or threat exactly?

I also really doubt that they’re going to pin much responsibility for Ben’s fall on Luke, at least not in an explicit way. In the same way that TFA never really delved much into the whole issue of whether Han and Leia were good parents and how much it contributed to Ben’s fall. We had bits from the actors and JJ in interviews, but the movie itself largely bypassed it.

@Saracene

ZioRen wrote:I never thought dark Luke would fully be a thing either. In fact, as I said recently in another thread, I think all of the "daring" and "ambiguous" elements of this movie aren't going to be considered much of such when we all come out of the theater. I really think that only Kylo will be tested to the point of wavering between two very different positions.

My only hope for TLJ Luke was that he be portrayed as in the wrong in some respect, or that Ben Solo's turn is to some degree on his shoulders. And that Rey is given good reason to have some tension with him. So I'm only hoping that we don't just get sad, cynical old Luke who feels guilty for things he shouldn't. I'm hoping for a liiiiittle more narrative bite than that, but at this point I'm not holding my breath. In the end, it's true that it's for the best if he not have a level of conflict that encroaches too much on the main narrative place that belongs to Rey and Kylo.

@ZioRen

Well if what you both say is true, and that they won't be daring outside of Kylo *and* Kylo basically turned and killed everybody because he was essentially a punk b****, and not because his parents or Luke ever did a thing to him, then I will be aggravated at myself for putting so much time into discussing what will largely be an extremely tepid project.  And if Disney thinks that the "safe route" is the way to go in an international box office environment that is imploding because 8 times out of 10 prestige TV tells a better story, then they are idiots.

Whatever.  I'll get over it.  TFA was the Kylo Ren and Reylo show for me, then TLJ can be the same thing.  Of course, if TLJ makes Luke the depressed, but the inherently sensitive and saintly Jedi, while Kylo the selfish a** laid waste to everything because he was upset at Luke for basically nothing, then it will strictly be the Adam Driver show for me from then on out.

No offense, but I really hope you both are wrong in your predictions, especially the "Luke probably didn't do anything wrong" one.  Milquetoast Luke is lame, but the character can be somewhat salvaged by a "did some bad sith in the past" Luke, a possibility that thankfully *was not* debunked by the article at all, because Luke needs to be "haunted" by something.  

I mean everyone likes what they like, but if I consistently thought the movie was going to go like you say, I would be here for people and Adam Driver awesomeness and nothing else.

@SoloSideCousin

Luke's role in Ben's fall could be similar to the Obi Wan-Anakin situation in the sense that while Obi Wan never really fell to the DS he and the council made some very morally grey decisions in joining the Clone wars and played a huge role in Anakin being manipulated by Palpatine and ultimately becoming Vader(the comics and the other canon materials definitely gives you a better idea how isolated Anakin felt and how the council had little to no sympathy towards him and did little to make his life better).
Luke might have though he was helping his nephew but some of the decisions he made regarding him probably made things even worse than they could have been.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:



Hamill seems to debunk "dark" Luke (no surprise, imo).

@FrolickingFizzgig


Well that sucks. I know I am in the minority here, but there was so much more potential here, and Rian has gone with the depressed old mentor route.  There is nothing brave *at all* in that. It is honestly the most predictable route possible. It is literally "oh I am an old man burned by life who is in my 'get off my lawn' hidey hole until a wonderful young girl brings me back to life." That is completely Hallmark movie at its essence. And forget about "DarkLuke" that frequently gets narrowed down to cackling Luke though no one here ever envisioned that, this article debunks uber-light-side Luke, mentally unbalanced Luke, Jekyll and Hyde Luke, even Misguided-about-how-the force works Luke. Wow. I expected a lot more than this from Rian.

But perhaps Rian is not that brave at all. Perhaps Luke needs to be marketed as dark to prepare the audience for the mere fact that Luke won't be perfect.

I kept telling my husband that I believed that overall TLJ would be stronger, that really interesting stuff would happen outside of Kylo and Reylo scenes. Yeah, not saying that anymore. Maybe Poe will get more interesting, so that will help. But in the end it looks like it will be Kylo and Reylo carrying the innovative and brave sector of the movie. What a waste. And thank God for Adam Driver.

@SoloSideCousin
I'm honestly more than alright with it this way. No, it's not as interesting, but Luke has already had his beginning, middle and end. Experiencing a midlife crisis of faith works well for him and doesn't take much emphasis off the new heroes, which was ultimately the most important thing to me. That was my issue with a lot of dark or more complex Luke theories, they always seemed to take over the story in very much the same way as if Luke were to have appeared earlier in The Force Awakens, shoved the new characters aside and taken the driver's seat for himself. He's a supporting character now just like Han and Leia. That doesn't mean they haven't or won't experience their own tribulations, but I'm glad there won't be anything huge like Luke having fallen to the dark side or fallen too far to the light and being in need of a literal redemption arc himself. His redemption can be a small but meaningful one, like Han's.

I do not believe Luke is blameless, or at the very least he doesn't consider himself blameless or saintly. It's not so black and white for me. I believe Luke has been pouring over a new prophesy or history, one chaotic enough that it made him stay on Ahch-To for 6 years trying to work it out and encouraged him to wish the Jedi gone forever. Kylo and Rey are the core of this destiny. Maybe it's cliche, but it's satisfying and simple enough to interest me. I'm also very happy that Kylo and Rey will be carrying the most innovative aspects of the story. They're part of the new generation that needs to overcome the opposition and carve out a new path and a new place for themselves.

Dark!Luke would steal the movie from everyone. Make Luke evil and nobody would talk about anything else. So it had to be half-way solution - not the Super Luke that some fans expect but a flawed man yet not irreversibly flawed (as in committing something really bad). You'll find plenty of fans who'll find that radical.

reylo1992 wrote:

Saracene wrote:@SoloSideCousin It doesn't have to go from one extreme to another though. Luke not getting blame for Ben's turning doesn't have to mean that Ben will turn out to be a horrible selfish punk b**** who betrayed his saintly uncle and parents (a prediction which BTW I believe I never made).

@Saracene

I don't think that Luke will take all the blame but if we follow what Mark said to EW, he seems haunted by a pretty strong guilt feeling.

"[Luke] made a huge mistake in thinking that his nephew was the chosen one, so he invested everything he had in Kylo, much like Obi-Wan did with my character. And he is betrayed, with tragic consequences. Luke feels responsible for that. That’s the primary obstacle he has to rejoining the world and his place in the Jedi hierarchy, you know? It’s that guilt, that feeling that it’s his fault, that he didn’t detect the darkness in him until it was too late

Luke is not a coward but he maybe thinks that he is not worth any more to be in front of this fight against Snoke and the FO. But sooner or later like all other characters he'll have to let go of the past to move on and thus face his biggest challenge to come back.

@reylo1992

I think that, if Luke was entrusted with the care for his sister's son and then it all went pear-shaped in the worst possible way, of course he'd feel responsible regardless of whether or not he had a direct hand in Ben's fall. "Why didn't I see the problem sooner" and etc.

snufkin wrote:Always thought Luke would be how Kasdan wanted him at the end of the ST, a little too weird and mystical after what he experienced with Vader, so he wanders off like a ronin Samurai. I do think some of the antagonism between him and Rey is that she’ll be angry that he’d reject returning to his sister after everything she’s lost.

@snufkin

Hi Everyone! Been enjoying reading your thoughts on the new Luke article. Thanks for sharing @FrolickingFizzgig

@snufkin, I love the bolded part of your comment especially. I think you are on to something. This, in Rey's eyes, is a form of abandonment - a massively sensitive issue for her!

If we were to get all Freudian here I'd guess Rey's anger at her parents' abandonment (real or perceived - as we don't know) will be IMHO projected onto Luke and his abandonment of Leia.. [and maybe of Kylo as Rey begins to understand the history better].
Soooo I can totally see Rey going ballistic on Luke at some point!
Dark Luke or not, Luke IMHO will have some actions/choices he will need to answer for!

I would not be surprised if Kylo killing Han will also weigh heavily on Luke - as it is a result of Kylo's turn toward the darkness, losing his nephew would have been guilt inducing enough, but then having said nephew kill his dad and luke's brother in law/buddy adds another layer of guilt.
I don't mean to say Kylo is not responsible, but I suspect there will be some responsiblity for this that also needs to be borne in part by Luke that he will need to work through.. he may not be a dark sider, but he will certainly be in a dark place...

@saracene & @reylo1992 - I agree with you that Luke will share some responsibility!

vaderito wrote:Dark!Luke would steal the movie from everyone. Make Luke evil and nobody would talk about anything else. So it had to be half-way solution - not the Super Luke that some fans expect but a flawed man yet not irreversibly flawed (as in committing something really bad). You'll find plenty of fans who'll find that radical.

@vaderito

Hear hear @vaderito! I love the idea of flawed Luke.. he is not God. And it takes courage to admit that you are flawed and to correct your mistakes...it also takes courage to step into the fray knowing you may not have all the answers or come out on top - victory is not guaranteed for Luke - but you act because it is who you are, and in line with what you believe in. Not because victory is certain.
I never understood the Jedi phobia of fear - without fear there can be no courage!!!!!