The Last Jedi General Discussion (Spoilers Allowed)

I was spoiled on generalities and while I was watching the Crait portion, I started laughing in a really uncomfortable way. Because there I was surrounded by families and it was literally the mother of all family get together and fights. The only thing which comes close to it are the scenes in Ladybird where you have the members of this family tearing at each other where the petty thing they're fighting over has nothing to do with the actual issue (money and the financial precariousness of their situation). It felt the same way to me, that it's about what happened to Ben, what Luke did to him, Ben being trapped in a cycle of anger/destruction over it, Rey deciding she can't enable it and going to help his mother, et cetera. And meanwhile you have all these people on both sides sitting there watching it play out. It's almost a meta comment on the Battle of Hoth. Because that's essentially a deadbeat biological father chasing after the children who despise him because he wants something from them.

I had thought a couple of things based on how much Rogue One really played it safe (LOL at fans who insist it's edgy or ground-breaking, it's a bigger/safer nostalgia fest than TFA was) were likely to happen, like the Vader outing from Bloodline being a factor in Ben's fall/Luke's exile, and having some backstory for Snoke and Rey's parents. The main reasons why I figured they'd make Rey's parents people who got mixed up with the FO or Snoke was the amount of collateral books/world building that were about Jyn's family for Rogue One. LF and Disney treated those characters as a product line for their publishing arm, so it made sense they'd do the same here and have them be characters writing about (nope, Rey's backstory is basically Angela's Ashes in Space). Same with the abandonment part because they already used that as a plot point for Jyn. Well, in this case it was handled differently and made brilliant sense for the character and not getting dragged into midichlorians type exposition. And even with what happened.

As for Renperer, well JJ did sort of write that into a corner. No Renperer, then you have to come up with all this stupid background exposition about who Snoke is and world building that includes another dumb McGuffin challenge/conflict. Also means getting back into the weeds of the Force and then finding some reason for Rey to give a sh*t about it (like more exposition about her parents). This way actually played out in a manner that was too the point, sets up a completely new chapter in IX, and wasn't convoluted. Also teases the question of "we saw for 6 movies what this character wanted to do and now this other character just blew past him in two. So what would've happened next?"

What I do think is dumb are all the critic and fan reactions of "Oh now he's a proper two dimensional villain" after making the point of stating how they're okay with what happened and on board with it. Like you just got schooled about cliches and expectations in a genuinely subversive piece of blockbuster film making and your response is "well thank God now we can go back to following the cliches for this type of character/story."

SheLitAFire wrote:@IoJovi @Night Huntress @Kessel @Cowgirlsamurai

I stared blankly at a wall the day after I saw it, oscillating between anger and sadness. I wanted to cry and I think I did briefly have some tears, but other than that I was just like   It was really hard for me to get over the Kylo meltdown scene and remember that the movie is only part II in the grand scheme of things. I remember PMing @Darth Dementor who had already seen it and just saying "I need to talk about this privately so I don't spread my depression all over the threads" lol

I went in like 95% spoiled (after thinking I had the will power & desire to not be spoiled, hahahahahaha) and was glad I knew about most stuff, because it did help "prepare" me (kind of).

@SheLitAFire

When Episode 9 comes out, I am definitely taking the next day off. I didn’t sleep after opening night or eat the next day, but had to be at work when I was almost not functioning. Plus everyone I encountered asked me how the movie was and I was on the edge of bursting in to tears. I was mad at a bunch of fictional characters! People probably thought I was crazy. I stayed in “Everyone abandoned Ben!” mode for a while Glad I wasn’t alone. Checking in here (and repeat viewings) helped calm me.

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:

SheLitAFire wrote:@IoJovi @Night Huntress @Kessel @Cowgirlsamurai

I stared blankly at a wall the day after I saw it, oscillating between anger and sadness. I wanted to cry and I think I did briefly have some tears, but other than that I was just like   It was really hard for me to get over the Kylo meltdown scene and remember that the movie is only part II in the grand scheme of things. I remember PMing @Darth Dementor who had already seen it and just saying "I need to talk about this privately so I don't spread my depression all over the threads" lol

I went in like 95% spoiled (after thinking I had the will power & desire to not be spoiled, hahahahahaha) and was glad I knew about most stuff, because it did help "prepare" me (kind of).

@SheLitAFire

When Episode 9 comes out, I am definitely taking the next day off. I didn’t sleep after opening night or eat the next day, but had to be at work when I was almost not functioning. Plus everyone I encountered asked me how the movie was and I was on the edge of bursting in to tears. I was mad at a bunch of fictional characters! People probably thought I was crazy. I stayed in “Everyone abandoned Ben!” mode for a while Glad I wasn’t alone. Checking in here (and repeat viewings) helped calm me.

@Cowgirlsamurai

Right???!!? I actually had the day off because it was the first day of my winter break, thankfully! But I had like 5 people texting me to ask about it since I saw it first out of my whole family and friends group and I was like "I can't talk about it right now. I CAN'T!"

I'd really love to see IX with people from this board, but I don't think anyone lives in Colorado. BUT if they have the cast going to a SW Celebration or Comic Con here in the U.S. in 2019 then I'd love to travel & go to that and meet some of you all!! My husband already gave me the thumbs up to do it!

SheLitAFire wrote:
I'd really love to see IX with people from this board, but I don't think anyone lives in Colorado. BUT if they have the cast going to a SW Celebration or Comic Con here in the U.S. in 2019 then I'd love to travel & go to that and meet some of you all!! My husband already gave me the thumbs up to do it!

@SheLitAFire

Yeah! I would LOVE to see IX with someone from here- since I'm from Switzerland that's not likely... well, maybe with someone from Germany?

Night Huntress wrote:I'm not sure how significant it is- but did you notice in which scenes the force theme is played?

I remember of two very important scenes - Ben & Rey touching hands and when Ben killed Snoke! It gave me extreme goose bumps...

Maybe I'm reading too much in this- but I think it's a hint that Ben indeed killed Snoke in good intention. To save Rey, himself but also because he was a cruel, creepy bastard that the galaxy needed to get rid off...and NOT to take his place as Supreme Leader, like some people commented. No, he didn't have any ulterior motives at that moment.

@Night Huntress

I agree with this.  The force theme is always used for something good and profound.  That was an amazing moment for Ben.  Snoke has been with Ben since he was a "boy [who] desperately needed a teacher", which was before Luke took him as an apprentice.  He has never been able to throw him off before, despite the fact that he knew Snoke was in his head ("Supreme Leader senses it").  I think he had resigned himself to having Snoke manipulate and hurt him, but when he saw the same thing happening to Rey he couldn't stand it.  Therefore, IMO the killing of Snoke was all about Rey.  When he walked in that door with Rey, he had no intention of killing Snoke.  Seeing Rey hurt changed all that.

It's always been about story structure for me so ending VIII with Renperor is the best possible thing that could have happened for endgame Reylo. It's a means of dragging the conflict along, focusing the heart of the narrative's drama on Rey and Kylo and most importantly postponing resolution for the end. Not the middle, as would have been the case with any Ronin Rey and Kylo scenario. The actual end.

Upset Annes are never going to realize it but Rey and Kylo failing to find unity or achieve any resolution at the end of the second of three films (and after defining their romantic connection thoroughly) makes endgame Reylo 110% inevitable. Ben Solo's soul and reciprocated Reylo are the goals of this three act story, not pit stops along the way to defeating Snoke. Interestingly that's why TLJ sort of has a "fillery" feel in some parts -- that's kind of what it is. It focuses on the evolution of Rey and Kylo's romantic dynamic without resolving anything, and intentionally so. It provides us with the perfect minimalist foundation for a star-crossed lovers trajectory, deals with Kylo's backstory, humanizes him to the max and sets up a completely electric, forbidden and tragic conflict all amping us up for the final clash of ideologies and lightsabers.

Structurally Reylo actually follows a romance slated for a happy ending or at least an optimistic and satisfying resolution, a.k.a. the most basic romance structure ever and the one found in all romantic comedies:

Kessel wrote:

MrsWindu wrote:I don’t often delve into the SW database so this may have already cropped up. I found some of the wording used to describe Snokes entry a bit odd. I had to google some of the words in case I misunderstood their context. Using ’hermatic’ to describe the FO - does it mean they are sealed off or they’re part of an ancient occult tradition?

@MrsWindu

This entry confirms a couple of pieces of information. If Snoke is a seeker of arcane lore that would explain his interest in the Skywalker bloodline. Also, it confirms that Snoke seduced Ben when he desperately needed a teacher, before he was sent to Luke. That means poor Ben must have been dealing with his Force powers without understanding them and without assistance for some time before he was sent to Luke. Therefore,  he relied on Snoke because Snoke made it seem like he could help him with these powers.

Also, "when Luke 'finally' agreed to make Ben one of his new Jedi apprentices?" That makes it sound like Luke was almost hesitant to teach Ben. I don't know if that's the case as it seems like from the movie, Ben was part of Luke's first group of students and he thought Ben was some kind of chosen one? Maybe he changed his mind.

@Kessel

They emphasize how he was a boy in desperate need of a teacher.  Maybe the "finally" is used to indicate that there was a long period of time between Snoke moving in on him and Luke finally deciding to train him.  The movie seems to indicate that Luke wanted to train Ben because he saw that he was powerful and because he wanted to cultivate that "Skywalker blood", a darkish moment for Luke.  IMO, that would also indicate that Luke was not aware of Snoke's influence at the time or he would have been more reticent to train him ... unless Luke was so arrogant and so full of hubris that he thought that Snoke was no big deal.  But I don't think so.  He makes the reference to the hubris of the Jedi being the reason that they were so clueless about Darth Sidious.  I think Luke may have seen a similar clueless hubris in himself with regard to Snoke.

If I am right in this interpretation, Ben really was being manipulated for a long time before Luke even came on the scene, and as a result, the child predator argument becomes even stronger than it already is.

Night Huntress wrote:

SheLitAFire wrote:
I'd really love to see IX with people from this board, but I don't think anyone lives in Colorado. BUT if they have the cast going to a SW Celebration or Comic Con here in the U.S. in 2019 then I'd love to travel & go to that and meet some of you all!! My husband already gave me the thumbs up to do it!

@SheLitAFire

Yeah! I would LOVE to see IX with someone from here- since I'm from Switzerland that's not likely... well, maybe with someone from Germany?

@Night Huntress

OMG I WOULD COME SEE YOU!!! Switzerland is in my top 3 places to travel to next!!!!!

I know i just throw things here and there but i just read a full analysis of why Rey and Poe will be linked romantically?
I don't want to over react but she and Kylo have a force bond? I guess watching is fine.

SheLitAFire wrote:

Night Huntress wrote:

SheLitAFire wrote:
I'd really love to see IX with people from this board, but I don't think anyone lives in Colorado. BUT if they have the cast going to a SW Celebration or Comic Con here in the U.S. in 2019 then I'd love to travel & go to that and meet some of you all!! My husband already gave me the thumbs up to do it!

@SheLitAFire

Yeah! I would LOVE to see IX with someone from here- since I'm from Switzerland that's not likely... well, maybe with someone from Germany?

@Night Huntress

OMG I WOULD COME SEE YOU!!! Switzerland is in my top 3 places to travel to next!!!!!

@SheLitAFire

Really? I would invite you for dinner and then we go see it in the new IMAX here in Luzern.

I even considered flying to the States but no way I'll get holidays in the middle of December.
When is IX coming out? I guess the same time TFA and TLJ just before X-mas?

Night Huntress wrote:

SheLitAFire wrote:

Night Huntress wrote:

SheLitAFire wrote:
I'd really love to see IX with people from this board, but I don't think anyone lives in Colorado. BUT if they have the cast going to a SW Celebration or Comic Con here in the U.S. in 2019 then I'd love to travel & go to that and meet some of you all!! My husband already gave me the thumbs up to do it!

@SheLitAFire

Yeah! I would LOVE to see IX with someone from here- since I'm from Switzerland that's not likely... well, maybe with someone from Germany?

@Night Huntress

OMG I WOULD COME SEE YOU!!! Switzerland is in my top 3 places to travel to next!!!!!

@SheLitAFire

Really? I would invite you for dinner and then we go see it in the new IMAX here in Luzern.

I even considered flying to the States but no way I'll get holidays in the middle of December.
When is IX coming out? I guess the same time TFA and TLJ just before X-mas?

@Night Huntress

A few of us actually flew/drove to where @iojovi lives to see TLJ together. You should have seen us walking out of the theatre like a bunch of zombies, lol. It was very good that we had each other to sort things out with in that moment. Maybe for Black Diamond we can make it an even bigger group? And yes, there is SW Celebration. Even more of us went to that. We even waited for like 19 hours, and slept (or tried to sleep in my case) on a concrete floor, lol, so we could get into the panel with Rian, Daisy, John, Mark, etc. Some people on this board actually slept on the floor both nights and got to see Harrison Ford and John Williams. It was crazy, lol, but also awesome, and it would be fantastic to have a bigger group for the next go-around.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:It's always been about story structure for me so ending VIII with Renperor is the best possible thing that could have happened for endgame Reylo. It's a means of dragging the conflict along, focusing the heart of the narrative's drama on Rey and Kylo and most importantly postponing resolution for the end. Not the middle, as would have been the case with any Ronin Rey and Kylo scenario. The actual end.

Upset Annes are never going to realize it but Rey and Kylo failing to find unity or achieve any resolution at the end of the second of three films (and after defining their romantic connection thoroughly) makes endgame Reylo 110% inevitable. Ben Solo's soul and reciprocated Reylo are the goals of this three act story, not pit stops along the way to defeating Snoke. Interestingly that's why TLJ sort of has a "fillery" feel in some parts -- that's kind of what it is. It focuses on the evolution of Rey and Kylo's romantic dynamic without resolving anything, and intentionally so. It provides us with the perfect minimalist foundation for a star-crossed lovers trajectory, deals with Kylo's backstory, humanizes him to the max and sets up a completely electric, forbidden and tragic conflict all amping us up for the final clash of ideologies and lightsabers.

Structurally Reylo actually follows a romance slated for a happy ending or at least an optimistic and satisfying resolution, a.k.a. the most basic romance structure ever and the one found in all romantic comedies:

@FrolickingFizzgig

I want this to come true!!! This kind of structure is very common, indeed. Pride & Prejudice, Jane Eyre....

lauvamp wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:It's always been about story structure for me so ending VIII with Renperor is the best possible thing that could have happened for endgame Reylo. It's a means of dragging the conflict along, focusing the heart of the narrative's drama on Rey and Kylo and most importantly postponing resolution for the end. Not the middle, as would have been the case with any Ronin Rey and Kylo scenario. The actual end.

Upset Annes are never going to realize it but Rey and Kylo failing to find unity or achieve any resolution at the end of the second of three films (and after defining their romantic connection thoroughly) makes endgame Reylo 110% inevitable. Ben Solo's soul and reciprocated Reylo are the goals of this three act story, not pit stops along the way to defeating Snoke. Interestingly that's why TLJ sort of has a "fillery" feel in some parts -- that's kind of what it is. It focuses on the evolution of Rey and Kylo's romantic dynamic without resolving anything, and intentionally so. It provides us with the perfect minimalist foundation for a star-crossed lovers trajectory, deals with Kylo's backstory, humanizes him to the max and sets up a completely electric, forbidden and tragic conflict all amping us up for the final clash of ideologies and lightsabers.

Structurally Reylo actually follows a romance slated for a happy ending or at least an optimistic and satisfying resolution, a.k.a. the most basic romance structure ever and the one found in all romantic comedies:

@FrolickingFizzgig

I want this to come true!!! This kind of structure is very common, indeed. Pride & Prejudice, Jane Eyre....

@lauvamp

Omg I always love the reunion parts of romance- because no matter how much has transpired between them, all the pain and alienation, they can't stop yearning for the other. Epi 9 is gonna be all about "winning you back" EEEKK!!!

@FrolickingFizzgig For me it's also always been about structure, the only thing that truly threw me off scent was the possibility of Snoke dying midway through the story. But after TLJ it's just crystal-clear that it had to happen in Kylo's coming-of-age story because the mentor/authority figure *always always always* has to be out of the way, making the young hero stand on their own two feet before the end. It was the same deal with Luke - I never fully thought that he would die in this movie, but it was only because I let other considerations get in the way of Rey's coming-of-age story and what had to happen in it. After I fully realised what's going on with Kylo, I thought that Renperor was an absolutely delicious turn and loved it

Okey- I need to focus *fansherself* ... so, did we already discussed how Kylo/Ben never complained when Rey calling him by his birth name?

Usually the characters who rename themselves getting angry when addressed by their former name.
I remember in RotJ that Vader was upset when Luke said that he once was Anakin Skywalker his father.
Kylo/Ben never getting angry - he even responds like it's natural. Thought?

Night Huntress wrote:Okey- I need to focus *fansherself* ... so, did we already discussed how Kylo/Ben never complained when Rey calling him by his birth name?

Usually the characters who rename themselves getting angry when addressed by their former name.
I remember in RotJ that Vader was upset when Luke said that he once was Anakin Skywalker his father.
Kylo/Ben never getting angry - he even responds like it's natural. Thought?

@Night Huntress

That was Ah-mazing, and that little almost like gasp he does. He is like - what? Aw. 
And in the fanfics he usually was like - "don't call me that" at first. And here he just goes with - Yes, that is me, Ben. ^^

"Ben?"
"Yes honey?"

SkyStar wrote:
That was Ah-mazing, and that little almost like gasp he does. He is like - what? Aw. 
And in the fanfics he usually was like - "don't call me that" at first. And here he just goes with - Yes, that is me, Ben. ^^

@SkyStar

Yes! exactly! EXACTLY!

Rey never called him Kylo to his face - she's either insulting him or calling him Ben and he didn't seem to mind.

Kylo Ren with all fibre of his being my a**

So Adam is still #1 on Tumblr
TLJ is still #1 on Tumblr
Reylo is still #1 on Tumblr

EchoBase wrote:https://www.wsj.com/articles/want-to-dress-like-kylo-ren-of-star-wars-youll-need-maternity-pants-1515426590

@EchoBase

Is no one going to talk about how Michael Kaplan compared Kylo to Errol Flynn? Kaplan: “The world of Star Wars is not our world. Kylo Ren is not some hipster in hip-hugging jeans. Think Errol Flynn swashbuckling coolness as a point of departure. Hide that navel!” I find it very significant that the costume department was drawing style cues from an actor known for his romantic swashbuckling roles.

shii405 wrote:

Kessel wrote:

EchoBase wrote:

"@EchoBase"

Omg, I just thought of something...we all know Rey grabs Kylo's upper right thigh/hip in this perfect beautiful scene, but where is his left hand/arm? His right hand faces us and it's holding his light saber, but we can't see his left hand/arm because it's behind him and facing away from the camera. Is it possible he's grabbing her right leg too? I need to pay extra attention when I go see the movie again next week.

@Kessel

YES PLEASE

He NEEDS to grab her thigh too, to keep her in balance and to let her give out a stronger kick

@shii405

Ohhhhh I do believe shii405 has cracked the code and revealed the true meaning of balance
Balance = Rey holding Kylo's thigh while Kylo is holding Rey's thigh
ahem...

Night Huntress wrote:I'm not sure how significant it is- but did you notice in which scenes the force theme is played?

I remember of two very important scenes - Ben & Rey touching hands and when Ben killed Snoke! It gave me extreme goose bumps...

Maybe I'm reading too much in this- but I think it's a hint that Ben indeed killed Snoke in good intention. To save Rey, himself but also because he was a cruel, creepy bastard that the galaxy needed to get rid off...and NOT to take his place as Supreme Leader, like some people commented. No, he didn't have any ulterior motives at that moment.

@Night Huntress

Yes! I noticed this too Night Huntress and I too found the force theme playing when Snoke was killed hugely significant.
It could have been a dark side theme, a vader theme, or even the kylo theme - but it was the force theme.
Chills and utterly fabulous!
I took it as hugely encouraging for Kylo/Ben's future story and redemption. He didn't just become the big bad!
It seems to shout that the force is pleased with what just went down! Rey and Kylo/Ben working together to slice Snoke in two The force is zinging with bliss tee hee.. I can hear it now: ahhhh now this is the kinda balance I've been seeking!!

Saracene wrote:"Ben?"
"Yes honey?"

@Saracene



Source: (X)

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:It's always been about story structure for me so ending VIII with Renperor is the best possible thing that could have happened for endgame Reylo. It's a means of dragging the conflict along, focusing the heart of the narrative's drama on Rey and Kylo and most importantly postponing resolution for the end. Not the middle, as would have been the case with any Ronin Rey and Kylo scenario. The actual end.

Upset Annes are never going to realize it but Rey and Kylo failing to find unity or achieve any resolution at the end of the second of three films (and after defining their romantic connection thoroughly) makes endgame Reylo 110% inevitable. Ben Solo's soul and reciprocated Reylo are the goals of this three act story, not pit stops along the way to defeating Snoke. Interestingly that's why TLJ sort of has a "fillery" feel in some parts -- that's kind of what it is. It focuses on the evolution of Rey and Kylo's romantic dynamic without resolving anything, and intentionally so. It provides us with the perfect minimalist foundation for a star-crossed lovers trajectory, deals with Kylo's backstory, humanizes him to the max and sets up a completely electric, forbidden and tragic conflict all amping us up for the final clash of ideologies and lightsabers.

Structurally Reylo actually follows a romance slated for a happy ending or at least an optimistic and satisfying resolution, a.k.a. the most basic romance structure ever and the one found in all romantic comedies:

@FrolickingFizzgig

I think we need an 'encouraging thoughts for IX' thread - and I would put this comment in that thread! A go to for when those little niggling fears crop up
Loved this FrolickingFizzgig!