The Last Jedi General Discussion (Spoilers Allowed)

thescavenger wrote:fourth viewing, so just brief notes for now

- Snoke couldn't have created the Force Bond because he didn't even know where Rey (and Luke by connection) was in the galaxy.
- Lots of emphasis on hands in this movie.
- Speaking of hands, I loved how Luke told Rey to reach out and that was mistaken as literal meaning at first, then she realised he meant with her heart. Same thing could be said with how she approached Ben Solo - first with her hand literally, then with her heart.
- Kylo's aggression of "MORE, MOREE" felt almost like a release of sexual frustration partly from the fallout with Rey previously. Okay, or he was angry he cockblocked them, yup.

EDIT: Also, one more thing, have we discussed a woman's voice calling for "Rey" in the mirror scene?

@thescavenger

I am absolutely convinced Snoke had nothing to do with the bond - in TFA he was stunned to find Rey was Force sensitive. I suspect on discovering it existed and Kylo's growing feelings for Rey, he decided to take advantage of it and try to get him to kill her to accomplish what killing Han couldn't. Which also shows how much he feared Rey having a positive influence on Kylo.

Kessel wrote:

EchoBase wrote:

"@EchoBase"

Omg, I just thought of something...we all know Rey grabs Kylo's upper right thigh/hip in this perfect beautiful scene, but where is his left hand/arm? His right hand faces us and it's holding his light saber, but we can't see his left hand/arm because it's behind him and facing away from the camera. Is it possible he's grabbing her right leg too? I need to pay extra attention when I go see the movie again next week.

@Kessel

YES PLEASE

He NEEDS to grab her thigh too, to keep her in balance and to let her give out a stronger kick

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:

thescavenger wrote:
EDIT: Also, one more thing, have we discussed a woman's voice calling for "Rey" in the mirror scene?

@thescavenger

I haven’t seen it discussed yet

I think it’s her mommy

@Cowgirlsamurai

Is it another Obiwan moment like in TFA calling out for Rey though? Because the scene was before the parentage 'reveal', I thought it was a tease for Rey Someone. But now considering she's a Random (as appears so for now), it seems a bit out of context to be her mother. Oh, my brain!

Another question - How/why did Ben see who her parents were? Was it a vision when their hands touched? Or just a vision he had another time.

motherofpearl1 wrote:

thescavenger wrote:fourth viewing, so just brief notes for now

- Snoke couldn't have created the Force Bond because he didn't even know where Rey (and Luke by connection) was in the galaxy.
- Lots of emphasis on hands in this movie.
- Speaking of hands, I loved how Luke told Rey to reach out and that was mistaken as literal meaning at first, then she realised he meant with her heart. Same thing could be said with how she approached Ben Solo - first with her hand literally, then with her heart.
- Kylo's aggression of "MORE, MOREE" felt almost like a release of sexual frustration partly from the fallout with Rey previously. Okay, or he was angry he cockblocked them, yup.

EDIT: Also, one more thing, have we discussed a woman's voice calling for "Rey" in the mirror scene?

@thescavenger

I am absolutely convinced Snoke had nothing to do with the bond - in TFA he was stunned to find Rey was Force sensitive. I suspect on discovering it existed and Kylo's growing feelings for Rey, he decided to take advantage of it and try to get him to kill her to accomplish what killing Han couldn't. Which also shows how much he feared Rey having a positive influence on Kylo.

@motherofpearl1

It seems like a very odd logic for Snoke to bridge their minds - as in why would he tempt Kylo to the light by using Rey, and then ask him to kill Rey? Surely, he's already torn apart. It's either he overestimated Kylo's darkness or that he has no awareness of how strong crushes can be.

I doubt if one such as Snoke could even understand what love is.

I don’t often delve into the SW database so this may have already cropped up. I found some of the wording used to describe Snokes entry a bit odd. I had to google some of the words in case I misunderstood their context. Using ’hermatic’ to describe the FO - does it mean they are sealed off or they’re part of an ancient occult tradition?

@thescavenger

Just because she’s Rey “nobody,” doesn’t mean she’s motherless. She hears that voice, turns around, looks at the mirror and says “Let me see them. My parents.” So I think it makes sense that the voice could have been her mother’s from a primitive memory. Also, according to Kylo, her mom’s dead, so... ghost voice? Who knows... but what other female voice would Rey hear? Doesn’t sound like Leia’s. I don’t think we’ll ever find out.

As for Ben, I have no idea when or why he was shown about her parents, but some think it was before the hand touch since he mentions her parents throwing her out “like garbage” in the shirtless scene. Kylo seemed to have prior knowledge of Rey in TFA (and JJ says so in his commentary) so maybe he knew it then, too.

@MrsWindu

I took the use of 'hermetic' there to suggest that they were hiding away whilst they built their military strength?

I'm not sure how significant it is- but did you notice in which scenes the force theme is played?

I remember of two very important scenes - Ben & Rey touching hands and when Ben killed Snoke! It gave me extreme goose bumps...

Maybe I'm reading too much in this- but I think it's a hint that Ben indeed killed Snoke in good intention. To save Rey, himself but also because he was a cruel, creepy bastard that the galaxy needed to get rid off...and NOT to take his place as Supreme Leader, like some people commented. No, he didn't have any ulterior motives at that moment.

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:@thescavenger

Just because she’s Rey “nobody,” doesn’t mean she’s motherless. She hears that voice, turns around, looks at the mirror and says “Let me see them. My parents.” So I think it makes sense that the voice could have been her mother’s from a primitive memory. Also, according to Kylo, her mom’s dead, so... ghost voice? Who knows... but what other female voice would Rey hear? Doesn’t sound like Leia’s. I don’t think we’ll ever find out.

As for Ben, I have no idea when or why he was shown about her parents, but some think it was before the hand touch since he mentions her parents throwing her out “like garbage” in the shirtless scene. Kylo seemed to have prior knowledge of Rey in TFA (and JJ says so in his commentary) so maybe he knew it then, too.

@Cowgirlsamurai

Yeah, I just felt like it laid another point that could just lead to nowhere. If it was just from memory, then that makes sense. She's desperate to know, she's conjuring up all these memories she can of her parents, etc. But by having it there also makes me want to find out who said it, and it's just another thing that sort of leaves me wondering, especially after all the fuss around Ewan McGregor/Alec Guinness' "Rey" in TFA.

And for Ben's knowledge of Rey's parents, I don't really mind how it happened, just checking whether something was said about it that I completely missed. Thanks!

Night Huntress wrote:I'm not sure how significant it is- but did you notice in which scenes the force theme is played?

I remember of two very important scenes - Ben & Rey touching hands and when Ben killed Snoke! It gave me extreme goose bumps...

Maybe I'm reading too much in this- but I think it's a hint that Ben indeed killed Snoke in good intention. To save Rey, himself but also because he was a cruel, creepy bastard that the galaxy needed to get rid off...and NOT to take his place as Supreme Leader, like some people commented. No, he didn't have any ulterior motives at that moment.

@Night Huntress

To me, this was rather obvious he did it to save Rey.  I do think Ben has thought about taking the throne previously, but it couldn't have anticipated this moment and it certainly wasn't part of a greater plan.  He has already experienced what killing a loved one actually means, and he's not going to do it a second time.  Rey is probably the first person in a long time who has shown any kind of personal feelings for him in a positive way, and he's going to latch onto that.  It also shows that when these two work together, they're unstoppable and who knows what they could accomplish in the long run.  Rey's positive feelings towards him gave him the strength and hope he needed to do what needed to be done with Snoke.  

So yeah, I'm not surprised the Force theme played during these moments as they're both extremely hopeful scenes, with nothing sinister about them.

Do we have any psych majors here? Anyone familiar with the Joker/Harley Quinn dynamic as opposed to Kylo/Rey? Yes, I'm getting this from two sides, and I don't feel like I have the background to really take this down.

MrsWindu wrote:I don’t often delve into the SW database so this may have already cropped up. I found some of the wording used to describe Snokes entry a bit odd. I had to google some of the words in case I misunderstood their context. Using ’hermatic’ to describe the FO - does it mean they are sealed off or they’re part of an ancient occult tradition?

@MrsWindu

This entry confirms a couple of pieces of information. If Snoke is a seeker of arcane lore that would explain his interest in the Skywalker bloodline. Also, it confirms that Snoke seduced Ben when he desperately needed a teacher, before he was sent to Luke. That means poor Ben must have been dealing with his Force powers without understanding them and without assistance for some time before he was sent to Luke. Therefore, he relied on Snoke because Snoke made it seem like he could help him with these powers.

Also, "when Luke 'finally' agreed to make Ben one of his new Jedi apprentices?" That makes it sound like Luke was almost hesitant to teach Ben. I don't know if that's the case as it seems like from the movie, Ben was part of Luke's first group of students and he thought Ben was some kind of chosen one? Maybe he changed his mind.

Night Huntress wrote:I'm not sure how significant it is- but did you notice in which scenes the force theme is played?

I remember of two very important scenes - Ben & Rey touching hands and when Ben killed Snoke! It gave me extreme goose bumps...

Maybe I'm reading too much in this- but I think it's a hint that Ben indeed killed Snoke in good intention. To save Rey, himself but also because he was a cruel, creepy bastard that the galaxy needed to get rid off...and NOT to take his place as Supreme Leader, like some people commented. No, he didn't have any ulterior motives at that moment.

@Night Huntress

I think that as well- notice after the fight with the PG Kylo stood staring at Snoke's corpse and you could practically see his thought processes....it just occurred to him that Snoke was gone and there was a power vacuum.

motherofpearl1 wrote:

Night Huntress wrote:I'm not sure how significant it is- but did you notice in which scenes the force theme is played?

I remember of two very important scenes - Ben & Rey touching hands and when Ben killed Snoke! It gave me extreme goose bumps...

Maybe I'm reading too much in this- but I think it's a hint that Ben indeed killed Snoke in good intention. To save Rey, himself but also because he was a cruel, creepy bastard that the galaxy needed to get rid off...and NOT to take his place as Supreme Leader, like some people commented. No, he didn't have any ulterior motives at that moment.

@Night Huntress

I think that as well- notice after the fight with the PG Kylo stood staring at Snoke's corpse and you could practically see his thought processes....it just occurred to him that Snoke was gone and there was a power vacuum.

@motherofpearl1

That's exactly how I interpret this scene too.  Ben has a look on his face that's very reminiscent to Frodo not being able to give up the Ring of Power in Return of the King.  I definitely don't think it was something he planned ahead on.  In fact, we already know that Ben Solo and planning ahead aren't things that exactly go together...

IoJovi wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:

Night Huntress wrote:I'm not sure how significant it is- but did you notice in which scenes the force theme is played?

I remember of two very important scenes - Ben & Rey touching hands and when Ben killed Snoke! It gave me extreme goose bumps...

Maybe I'm reading too much in this- but I think it's a hint that Ben indeed killed Snoke in good intention. To save Rey, himself but also because he was a cruel, creepy bastard that the galaxy needed to get rid off...and NOT to take his place as Supreme Leader, like some people commented. No, he didn't have any ulterior motives at that moment.

@Night Huntress

I think that as well- notice after the fight with the PG Kylo stood staring at Snoke's corpse and you could practically see his thought processes....it just occurred to him that Snoke was gone and there was a power vacuum.

@motherofpearl1

That's exactly how I interpret these scene too.  Ben has a look on his face that's very reminiscent to Frodo not being able to give up the Ring of Power in Return of the King.  I definitely don't think it was something he planned ahead on.  In fact, we already know that Ben Solo and planning ahead aren't things that exactly go together...

@IoJovi

Like father, like son

Night Huntress wrote:I'm not sure how significant it is- but did you notice in which scenes the force theme is played?

I remember of two very important scenes - Ben & Rey touching hands and when Ben killed Snoke! It gave me extreme goose bumps...

Maybe I'm reading too much in this- but I think it's a hint that Ben indeed killed Snoke in good intention. To save Rey, himself but also because he was a cruel, creepy bastard that the galaxy needed to get rid off...and NOT to take his place as Supreme Leader, like some people commented. No, he didn't have any ulterior motives at that moment.

@Night Huntress

I think the Force theme playing at those moments is significant in that they are when we see the most of Ben shining through. The moment I first saw him kill Snoke with Rey’s saber, I thought that the Force theme meant the return of Ben for good, and I think Rey did too. That’s why I was so devastated when everything fell apart after that.

If you listen to the soundtrack, the Force theme is inserted a lot. It’s like reminding the audience that this is indeed a Star Wars movie

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:
@Night Huntress

I think the Force theme playing at those moments is significant in that they are when we see the most of Ben shining through. The moment I first saw him kill Snoke with Rey’s saber, I thought that the Force theme meant the return of Ben for good, and I think Rey did too. That’s why I was so devastated when everything fell apart after that.

@Cowgirlsamurai

Yes, and the look on Rey's face when she realized what actually happened. She looks at Ben in awe like "my savior, my hero, kiss me!
If they weren't in immediate danger and had to fight of the PG who knows? Maybe she would have hugged him or give him a kiss on the cheek

And I totally get what you mean by being devastated after all went down. I went in spoiled and I'm so glad I did...not sure my poor heart would have survived it otherwise

Night Huntress wrote:

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:
@Night Huntress

I think the Force theme playing at those moments is significant in that they are when we see the most of Ben shining through. The moment I first saw him kill Snoke with Rey’s saber, I thought that the Force theme meant the return of Ben for good, and I think Rey did too. That’s why I was so devastated when everything fell apart after that.

@Cowgirlsamurai

Yes, and the look on Rey's face when she realized what actually happened. She looks at Ben in awe like "my savior, my hero, kiss me!      
If they weren't in immediate danger and had to fight of the PG who knows? Maybe she would have hugged him or give him a kiss on the cheek

And I totally get what you mean by being devastated after all went down. I went in spoiled and I'm so glad I did...not sure my poor heart would have survived it otherwise

@Night Huntress

I know, I also loved Rey's awed face when she looked up at Kylo, after he killed Snoke. Kylo also didn't take his eyes off her as he ignited his saber. The way they look at each other...*sigh*

I'm also sooo glad I was spoiled about what happened in the movie because even though I knew what was coming, I was still so upset! I would have been utterly devastated AND pissed had I gone in unspoiled.

Kessel wrote:

Night Huntress wrote:

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:
@Night Huntress

I think the Force theme playing at those moments is significant in that they are when we see the most of Ben shining through. The moment I first saw him kill Snoke with Rey’s saber, I thought that the Force theme meant the return of Ben for good, and I think Rey did too. That’s why I was so devastated when everything fell apart after that.

@Cowgirlsamurai

Yes, and the look on Rey's face when she realized what actually happened. She looks at Ben in awe like "my savior, my hero, kiss me!      
If they weren't in immediate danger and had to fight of the PG who knows? Maybe she would have hugged him or give him a kiss on the cheek

And I totally get what you mean by being devastated after all went down. I went in spoiled and I'm so glad I did...not sure my poor heart would have survived it otherwise

@Night Huntress

I know, I also loved Rey's awed face when she looked up at Kylo, after he killed Snoke. Kylo also didn't take his eyes off her as he ignited his saber. The way they look at each other...*sigh*

I'm also sooo glad I was spoiled about what happened in the movie because even though I knew what was coming, I was still upset! I would have been utterly devastated AND pissed had I gone in unspoiled.

@Kessel

I will not make the mistake again of going unspoiled for IX.  I went in purposely completely unspoiled for TLJ with the exception of things we had talked about on here over the last two years, and I was completely unprepared for Renperor.   I wanted to punch kittens coming out of the theater.  

I'm alright now, but it took me a good four days to recover.

IoJovi wrote:

Kessel wrote:

Night Huntress wrote:

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:
@Night Huntress

I think the Force theme playing at those moments is significant in that they are when we see the most of Ben shining through. The moment I first saw him kill Snoke with Rey’s saber, I thought that the Force theme meant the return of Ben for good, and I think Rey did too. That’s why I was so devastated when everything fell apart after that.

@Cowgirlsamurai

Yes, and the look on Rey's face when she realized what actually happened. She looks at Ben in awe like "my savior, my hero, kiss me!      
If they weren't in immediate danger and had to fight of the PG who knows? Maybe she would have hugged him or give him a kiss on the cheek

And I totally get what you mean by being devastated after all went down. I went in spoiled and I'm so glad I did...not sure my poor heart would have survived it otherwise

@Night Huntress

I know, I also loved Rey's awed face when she looked up at Kylo, after he killed Snoke. Kylo also didn't take his eyes off her as he ignited his saber. The way they look at each other...*sigh*

I'm also sooo glad I was spoiled about what happened in the movie because even though I knew what was coming, I was still upset! I would have been utterly devastated AND pissed had I gone in unspoiled.

@Kessel

I will not make the mistake again of going unspoiled for IX.  I went in purposely completely unspoiled for TLJ with the exception of things we had talked about on here over the last two years, and I was completely unprepared for Renperor.   I wanted to punch kittens coming out of the theater.  

I'm alright now, but it took me a good four days to recover.

@IoJovi

Omg, I cannot imagine! I would have been so furious!

The first time I saw the movie, I was almost numb after the throne room scene. The Crait scene and seeing Kylo break down like he did was heartbreaking. I was in a horrible mood afterwards. However, each consecutive time I've seen the movie, I've been able to appreciate what happened and enjoy it. The Reylo connection was real and Episode IX is now set up as a conflict between two people on opposing sides who have a strong connection and feelings for each other. There's no way JJ is going to throw that out. That's the heart of this story and the most dynamic part of it.

IoJovi wrote:

I will not make the mistake again of going unspoiled for IX.  I went in purposely completely unspoiled for TLJ with the exception of things we had talked about on here over the last two years, and I was completely unprepared for Renperor.   I wanted to punch kittens coming out of the theater.  

I'm alright now, but it took me a good four days to recover.

@IoJovi


I knew what will happen- but not the details and reading about it and actually seeing them happening on screen are two very different things.
I can't remember the last time I was that effected by a movie- and that's why I personally liked it so much! If it's a bad movie I'm indifferent...
And I needed a couple of days to recover too- because after the first viewing I wasn't sure Kylo/Ben could come back from that.

Now I'm absolutely sure he will- and on the second viewing I even laughed about his anger-tantrum on Crait... the first time I took it way to seriously to enjoy any of it.
The same with the final "battle" between Luke and him... I think it's epic and I will rewatch it thousands of times once it's released digitally.

IoJovi wrote:

Kessel wrote:

Night Huntress wrote:

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:
@Night Huntress

I think the Force theme playing at those moments is significant in that they are when we see the most of Ben shining through. The moment I first saw him kill Snoke with Rey’s saber, I thought that the Force theme meant the return of Ben for good, and I think Rey did too. That’s why I was so devastated when everything fell apart after that.

@Cowgirlsamurai

Yes, and the look on Rey's face when she realized what actually happened. She looks at Ben in awe like "my savior, my hero, kiss me!      
If they weren't in immediate danger and had to fight of the PG who knows? Maybe she would have hugged him or give him a kiss on the cheek

And I totally get what you mean by being devastated after all went down. I went in spoiled and I'm so glad I did...not sure my poor heart would have survived it otherwise

@Night Huntress

I know, I also loved Rey's awed face when she looked up at Kylo, after he killed Snoke. Kylo also didn't take his eyes off her as he ignited his saber. The way they look at each other...*sigh*

I'm also sooo glad I was spoiled about what happened in the movie because even though I knew what was coming, I was still upset! I would have been utterly devastated AND pissed had I gone in unspoiled.

@Kessel

I will not make the mistake again of going unspoiled for IX.  I went in purposely completely unspoiled for TLJ with the exception of things we had talked about on here over the last two years, and I was completely unprepared for Renperor.   I wanted to punch kittens coming out of the theater.  

I'm alright now, but it took me a good four days to recover.

@IoJovi

I went in pretty spoiled and was still furious, lol. Seeing it all together was different than getting snippets of info I had pieced together in my mind.

Kessel wrote:

IoJovi wrote:

Kessel wrote:

Night Huntress wrote:

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:
@Night Huntress

I think the Force theme playing at those moments is significant in that they are when we see the most of Ben shining through. The moment I first saw him kill Snoke with Rey’s saber, I thought that the Force theme meant the return of Ben for good, and I think Rey did too. That’s why I was so devastated when everything fell apart after that.

@Cowgirlsamurai

Yes, and the look on Rey's face when she realized what actually happened. She looks at Ben in awe like "my savior, my hero, kiss me!      
If they weren't in immediate danger and had to fight of the PG who knows? Maybe she would have hugged him or give him a kiss on the cheek

And I totally get what you mean by being devastated after all went down. I went in spoiled and I'm so glad I did...not sure my poor heart would have survived it otherwise

@Night Huntress

I know, I also loved Rey's awed face when she looked up at Kylo, after he killed Snoke. Kylo also didn't take his eyes off her as he ignited his saber. The way they look at each other...*sigh*

I'm also sooo glad I was spoiled about what happened in the movie because even though I knew what was coming, I was still upset! I would have been utterly devastated AND pissed had I gone in unspoiled.

@Kessel

I will not make the mistake again of going unspoiled for IX.  I went in purposely completely unspoiled for TLJ with the exception of things we had talked about on here over the last two years, and I was completely unprepared for Renperor.   I wanted to punch kittens coming out of the theater.  

I'm alright now, but it took me a good four days to recover.

@IoJovi

Omg, I cannot imagine! I would have been so furious!

The first time I saw the movie, I was almost numb after the throne room scene. The Crait scene and seeing Kylo break down like he did was heartbreaking. I was in a horrible mood afterwards. However, each consecutive time I've seen the movie, I've been able to appreciate what happened and enjoy it. The Reylo connection was real and Episode IX is now set up as a conflict between two people on opposing sides who have a strong connection and feelings for each other. There's no way JJ is going to throw that out. That's the heart of this story and the most dynamic part of it.

@Kessel

It was awful.  Not gonna lie.  Luckily we had gotten tickets for a second viewing Friday in advance, and that's what it took for me to finally realize everything would be alright.  There's about 12 separate pieces of foreshadowing that really point to the fact it's going to be okay, but man on that first viewing I thought the entire Skywalker family is going to hell and that's that, the end.  

It also helped that several people on this forum in private conversations kept repeating the three words DARKER MIDDLE CHAPTER so I could have a more open mind going into that second viewing.  I am forever grateful for that.

@Night Huntress I am the same way now about the Battle of Crait.  I can finally appreciate it for what it is, and I am so glad for that!

@Cowgirlsamurai I have heard that from others too that went in spoiled - seeing it was a completely different ballgame than reading about it...

@IoJovi @Kessel @Night Huntress

I understand you *hugs x 3* I needed to re-watch it to appreciate the movie in a positive way. I mean, even if I spoiled myself with some stuff and expected Kylo & Rey not ending this episode together, it was heartbreaking to me. Kind of disappointment to see them as enemies again AND the door thing, I didn't find it very optimistic. "Now what?" I've never experienced these tons of "feels" towards any movie before, I was kinda sad for a couple of days!

I was very happy and satisfied with the Reylo interactions though, it was very beautiful and I think it has sense to be explained just this way in this episode. No more no less. Rian mentioned once it fits the story and the character development, and I think he was right.

@IoJovi @Night Huntress @Kessel @Cowgirlsamurai

I stared blankly at a wall the day after I saw it, oscillating between anger and sadness. I wanted to cry and I think I did briefly have some tears, but other than that I was just like   It was really hard for me to get over the Kylo meltdown scene and remember that the movie is only part II in the grand scheme of things. I remember PMing @Darth Dementor who had already seen it and just saying "I need to talk about this privately so I don't spread my depression all over the threads" lol

I went in like 95% spoiled (after thinking I had the will power & desire to not be spoiled, hahahahahaha) and was glad I knew about most stuff, because it did help "prepare" me (kind of).