The Last Jedi General Discussion

motherofpearl1 wrote:Clever of the author to not delve too deeply - worried about Rey's lack of compassion - unless its setting the scene for her to be more of a 'grey' character. Which is fine by me. Maybe her anger and disappointment are controlling her at the moment, and she needs time to think over their last meeting, and its implications. Because Kylo won me over more than Rey at the end of TLJ - with just one word: please.

@motherofpearl1

Kylo not seeing any compassion in Rey's face just breaks my heart for him even more. But how can she not have ANY compassion remaining for him? I find that hard to believe after everything that went down. I'm going to assume that it's just his interpretation because he's in a very sad place after losing her. I'm still frustrated at how ambiguous Rey and her feelings are in Act 3 of this story, but I guess it's Rian's just leaving the door wide open for Episode IX. I guess if I stick with many of our "angry wife telling her husband to sleep on the couch because he's been a jerk" headcanons, then I guess the no compassion thing still fits?

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:Clever of the author to not delve too deeply - worried about Rey's lack of compassion - unless its setting the scene for her to be more of a 'grey' character. Which is fine by me. Maybe her anger and disappointment are controlling her at the moment, and she needs time to think over their last meeting, and its implications. Because Kylo won me over more than Rey at the end of TLJ - with just one word: please.

@motherofpearl1

Kylo not seeing any compassion in Rey's face just breaks my heart for him even more. But how can she not have ANY compassion remaining for him? I find that hard to believe after everything that went down. I'm going to assume that it's just his interpretation because he's in a very sad place after losing her. I'm still frustrated at how ambiguous Rey and her feelings are in Act 3 of this story, but I guess it's Rian's just leaving the door wide open for Episode IX. I guess if I stick with many of our "angry wife telling her husband to sleep on the couch because he's been a jerk" headcanons, then I guess the no compassion thing still fits?

@Cowgirlsamurai

I just hope that is Kylo's interpretation ....because as someone who has a terrible opinion of himself maybe that is to be expected, he thinks he doesn't deserve compassion. Because...lets's look at Rey. What has the Resistance done for her - absolutely toss all. It wasn't the Resistance who came for Rey in TFA - that was Finn. The Resistance would have put the 'greater good' first. Who was more concerned about Rey than 'the cause' - Finn. He would have jumped ship for her. Kylo meanwhile....killed his mentor for her. Tried to help her on Ahct To. Offered her the entire galaxy. At the end of the day, will Rey eventually realise that it is actually her friendship with Finn that drove her to reject Kylo's offer - she hardly knows everyone else.Finn is the brother she never had Rey and Kylo need to compromise. She has to accept that it is her friend rather than the Resistance that is important. And Kylo has to accept Finn....because if he wants Rey he needs to understand and accept her love for her brother - just as his father did with his mother.

I think Rey is trying to pretend it's not a personal thing either. Apparently from her POV, she claims she doesn't kill Kylo in that moment he's lying unconscious in the Throne Room because it's not her place and the Force isn't finished with him yet.

How is the Resistance not important, though? I'm not talking strictly about Poe here, whose methods may or may not reach a new level of questionable in IX (I certainly hope so otherwise his arc in TLJ will only become more pointless and aggravating). There's more to the Resistance than one flyboy pilot. No matter how many enemy weapons they might buy from the dealers who play both sides in Canto Bight they're still out to free the galaxy and help people. Look at how much hope Rose managed to give to the children in Canto Bight in the form of one tiny ring. Even if the Resistance members made some truly s****y decisions in TLJ that led to many of their ranks dying, their motivations are still very noble. The "cause" is a truly vital one. Rey grew up just like those Canto Bight kids. It's no wonder she admires the Resistance so much. You can see it in her reaction to Finn's lie about being a Resistance fighter. Who is she going to side with, really? Romantic feelings or not Kylo's proposal to her was truly awful ("F*** your friends and everything you stand for, rule the galaxy alongside me"). I'm not saying that she was totally right and he was totally wrong, but if given the two paths in front of her it makes perfect sense that she chose the one that aligns more with her ideals. The Resistance seeks to rebuild something new (restoring the Republic is likely the goal here, right)? In that instant Kylo just wanted to destroy everything. 

I actually think it's rather likely Poe will be used to contrast Hux in the next film, but again, Poe is not the only representative of the Resistance. The Resistance is Leia, Rose, Finn and Rey, too (among many others who care for the good of the people). They're all fighting for a free galaxy.

I think there's way more potential in a team-up between Rose, Rey, Finn and Kylo as some kind of rebellion within the Resistance in IX, but we'll see what JJ goes for.

Yeah, I think people hoping the Resistance and First Order are going to be portrayed as even close to equally wrong are going to be disappointed. I think TLJ was the closest it will ever get to that and even then the "grey area" was weak at best and the moral was that the Resistance is still fighting for the right reasons while the First Order is not and it's clear who you should root for.

I can't picture a storyline where Rey completely is disillusioned forever in or realizes the Resistance isn't there for her while Kylo is, even though I think there's going to be conflict in the discovery of her history and connection with Kylo. But honestly, rightfully so? Girl has been keeping large secrets in that respect and if I was a Resistance member, I don't know if I'd trust her after learning all that either. The insanely powerful superhuman potentially being in league with the other insanely powerful and (so they think) evil superhuman who leads their enemies is not a comforting prospect.

@FrolickingFizzgig

I agree with you, i particularly loved Holdos line about helping the downtrodden and oppressed around the Galaxy like the kids in Canto Bight. They ultimately stand for a better cause than the First Order who would much rather rule with an iron fist - however their methods still remain to be seen. It might be another hunger games moment where Katniss kills Coin because she realises Coin is just as extreme as the "enemy" Snow - i can see that happening with Poe, maybe?

However given Roses infamous line, i can see the "change" being made from within like a Stormtrooper rebellion led by Finn etc

ZioRen wrote:Yeah, I think people hoping the Resistance and First Order are going to be portrayed as even close to equally wrong are going to be disappointed. I think TLJ was the closest it will ever get to that and even then the "grey area" was weak at best and the moral was that the Resistance is still fighting for the right reasons while the First Order is not and it's clear who you should root for.

I can't picture a storyline where Rey completely is disillusioned forever in or realizes the Resistance isn't there for her while Kylo is, even though I think there's going to be conflict in the discovery of her history and connection with Kylo. But honestly, rightfully so? Girl has been keeping large secrets in that respect and if I was a Resistance member, I don't know if I'd trust her after learning all that either. The insanely powerful superhuman potentially being in league with the other insanely powerful and (so they think) evil superhuman who leads their enemies is not a comforting prospect.

@ZioRen

Are the Resistance  fighting for the right reasons though?I mean in theory the movie's telling us we should root for them but  canon materials such as Bloodline portrayed the Republic pretty much as how the old Republic used to be which was a corrupted system that allowed people like Palpatine to climb into power,had a slave army of clones fighting for them(and if you have asked the Jedi and the Repubic they would have also justified it saying they were fighting for freedom) and did nothing for other planets that they weren't concerned with such as Tatooine and the issue of slavery,etc so they somehow contradict the message that by having Republic 3.0 everyone will be happy and free.
The writing also hasn't showed or explained why the people of the Resistance want to restore a system which has been showed again and again to be corrupted and useless as a matter of fact the reason Leia created the Resistance in the first place was because was fed up with the Republic being useless and doing nothing over the FO threat.It also doesn't help that the Resistance is now down to like twenty people so they haven't really done a good job establishing either their or the FO's motives  and plans for the future once they restore the Republic/defeat the Resistance are beyond ''wanting to restore freedom''(aka Rebellion 2.0) and ''being evil''(aka Empire 2.0).If anything Rey should have serous questions and doubts about being part of a group who wants to restore the same Republic that left her to be a slave and survive on her own for so long.I just dislike when they try to tell viewers who to root for instead of letting them decide for themselves.
And I do actually hope Rey is disillusioned with the Resistance in some ways instead of having her be on their side one hundred percent without any conflict whatsoever,not only would it give her an interesting  conflict but  it could be a nice parallel to Ben becoming disillusioned with the FO while trying to be a Supreme Leader.This whole Rey and the Resistance thing has the potential to go into interesting directions with Leia being gone so I hope they do something with it but I guess we'll have to see what direction they choose to go.

@FrolickingFizzgig

I agree with you about the big picture - but I think what "motherofpearl1" meant is that the Resistance didn't do much for Rey personally- neither did the New Republic when she grew-up all alone almost starving on that wasteland of a planet.
So why is she so enthusiastic about the Resistance wanting to restore a system that hadn't cared for people like her anyway?
It just doesn't make sense- I mean sure, from a pure idealistic POV but it doesn't make sense for her to be that invested.

Night Huntress wrote:@FrolickingFizzgig

I agree with you about the big picture - but I think what "motherofpearl1" meant is that the Resistance didn't do much for Rey personally- neither did the New Republic when she grew-up all alone almost starving on that wasteland of a planet.
So why is she so enthusiastic about the Resistance wanting to restore a system that hadn't cared for people like her anyway?
It just doesn't make sense- I mean sure, from a pure idealistic POV but it doesn't make sense for her to be that invested.

@Night Huntress

That is what I mean, exactly. What does Rey really want? To belong. And does she belong to the Resistance? She shares a Force bond with their enemy. What happens when they find out?

CienaRee wrote:

ZioRen wrote:Yeah, I think people hoping the Resistance and First Order are going to be portrayed as even close to equally wrong are going to be disappointed. I think TLJ was the closest it will ever get to that and even then the "grey area" was weak at best and the moral was that the Resistance is still fighting for the right reasons while the First Order is not and it's clear who you should root for.

I can't picture a storyline where Rey completely is disillusioned forever in or realizes the Resistance isn't there for her while Kylo is, even though I think there's going to be conflict in the discovery of her history and connection with Kylo. But honestly, rightfully so? Girl has been keeping large secrets in that respect and if I was a Resistance member, I don't know if I'd trust her after learning all that either. The insanely powerful superhuman potentially being in league with the other insanely powerful and (so they think) evil superhuman who leads their enemies is not a comforting prospect.

@ZioRen

Are the Resistance  fighting for the right reasons though?I mean in theory the  movie's telling us we should root for them but  canon materials such as Bloodline portrayed the Republic pretty much as how the old Republic used to be which was a corrupted system that allowed people like Palpatine to climb into power,had a slave army of clones fighting for them(and if you have asked the Jedi and the Repubic they would have also justified it saying they were fighting for freedom) and did nothing for other planets that they weren't concerned with such as Tatooine and the issue of slavery,etc so they somehow contradict the message that by having Republic 3.0 everyone will be happy and free.
The writing also hasn't showed or explained why the people of the Resistance want to restore a system which has been showed again and again to be corrupted and useless as a matter of fact the reason Leia created the Resistance in the first place was because was fed up with the Republic being useless and doing nothing over the FO threat.It also doesn't help that the Resistance is now down to like twenty people so they haven't really done a good job establishing either their or the FO's motives  and plans for the future once they restore the Republic/defeat the Resistance are beyond ''wanting to restore freedom''(aka Rebellion 2.0) and ''being evil''(aka Empire 2.0).If anything Rey should have serous questions and doubts about being part of a group who wants to restore the same Republic that left her to be a slave and survive on her own for so long.I just dislike when they try to tell viewers who to root for instead of letting them decide for themselves.
And I do actually hope Rey is disillusioned with the Resistance in some ways instead of having her be on their side one hundred percent without any conflict whatsoever,not only would it give her an interesting  conflict but  it could be a nice parallel to Ben becoming disillusioned with the FO while trying to be a Supreme Leader.This whole Rey and the Resistance thing has the potential to go into interesting directions with Leia being gone so I hope they do something with it but I guess we'll have to see what direction they choose to go.

@CienaRee

What I more mean is I dont don't see a storyline of "I now realize the Resistance is just as unworthy as the First Order and deserves to be abolished too", not that Rey shouldn't get somewhat disillusioned at a point in the story, as I said she probably would for the conflict. I just really don't get the impression that we're meant to question the motives of the Resistance quite this much and think it's clear we're supposed to root for them.

I mean, Finn's whole arc in TLJ is him learning to take personal pride and purpose in being a rebel and part of the Resistance. It just doesn't fit in my eyes.

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:Clever of the author to not delve too deeply - worried about Rey's lack of compassion - unless its setting the scene for her to be more of a 'grey' character. Which is fine by me. Maybe her anger and disappointment are controlling her at the moment, and she needs time to think over their last meeting, and its implications. Because Kylo won me over more than Rey at the end of TLJ - with just one word: please.

@motherofpearl1

Kylo not seeing any compassion in Rey's face just breaks my heart for him even more. But how can she not have ANY compassion remaining for him? I find that hard to believe after everything that went down. I'm going to assume that it's just his interpretation because he's in a very sad place after losing her. I'm still frustrated at how ambiguous Rey and her feelings are in Act 3 of this story, but I guess it's Rian's just leaving the door wide open for Episode IX. I guess if I stick with many of our "angry wife telling her husband to sleep on the couch because he's been a jerk" headcanons, then I guess the no compassion thing still fits?

@Cowgirlsamurai

Rian may have left Rey's feeling ambiguous but I'm positive they will end up together just because they both saw a vision of them with each other, standing side by side. TLJ out and out said they will reconcile. The real question is which side will they end up on? And/or for how long? Will Kylo temporarily woo Rey to the dark only for them to both eventually pull out or will Rey finally sway him back home, without ever being tempted by her darker impulses?

I think one of the big problems here is that TPTB failed to make the Resistance truly interesting. Seriously, they're basically a copy-paste of the Rebellion but boring. I guess the argument is that there was a lot more time to develop the Rebellion (like, 40 years, lol), but the Resistance... just falls flat. Like, I love Finn, and Rose, and I enjoyed Holdo and Paige too, but I just can't bring myself to care about the Resistance. I do have the Cobalt Squadron book that's all about Rose, Paige and Tallie Lintra (haven't read it yet), but it's like Lucasfilm just gets lazy when it comes to the Resistance.

That's not to say I don't want the Resistance to win - but I realize more and more that I don't want the Resistance to win, I want THE CAUSE they fight for to win. And what really didn't help is that when it came to the fight with the Good Guys (Resistance) versus the Bad Guys (First Order), TLJ and all the additional material pretty much how utterly absurd it was. The First Order is evil, without the shadow of a doubt. The Resistance? I could sum it up with Goody Goode McGoody Goodee Two-Shoes. They want to restore a government that s*cked so bad back in the days Palpatine managed to take over "with thunderous applause", as Padmé once said. When said Republic came back, it was the exact same thing with the exact same problems, with Mon Mothma trying to hold everything together and eventually having to retire (read here: she had a burnout).

Meanwhile, what was happening with planets like Tatooine and Jakku? The Republic in both cases kept on ignoring them. Heck, Luke in TLJ went around saying that the Jedi of old s*cked, and Yoda's Force Ghost showed up to pretty much say: "Yeah, we screwed it up." The planets that eventually joined the FO, according to Bloodline, were all planets who had it hard during the Empire's time and didn't have any help from the New Republic.

You have Leia who leaves the New Republic and founds the Resistance partly out of frustration, and she goes and fights again, because that's what's she's good at - but who helps people like Rey? Who helps people like Rose and Paige who didn't have the luck of joining the Resistance like they did? Who lifts a single finger for all the kids that got kidnapped from their homes as infants and became child soldiers for the First Order?

No one.

The whole point of Finn and Rose's arc that big gestures and blowing up stuff may look cool, but ultimately, it's pointless. The Falthiers may have been freed, but those kids who took care of them are still enslaved and still mistreated.

So yeah, maybe Lucasfilm *wants* me to root for the Resistance, but what? I have to root for them going all pew-pew while giving each other hi-fives and have things go back exactly as they were, while the characters among them who have potential become as cardboard-ish and boring as the rest? If that's the point, Finn and Rose's plot as well as Poe's plot become bland and generic in the worst way possible, and it's just pointless. Like, yeah, maybe I *have* to root for the Resistance, but I feel like it's getting shoved down my throat more than anything else.

This is where my whole question about what degree of space politics or space ideology they'll even have enough time to show in IX and have it be part of the central story/character motivations. Because while it's there in Bloodline and we know now that there was a back and forth between Claudia Grey and Rian Johnson, it obviously didn't make it into the final cut of the film. We do have a likely rift/competing agenda in the FO between Kylo and Hux that will be a central thread (be surprised if it isn't) in IX and the whole point of Canto Bight was the competing PoVs of DJ versus Rose about the corrupt system they're living under. Plus we know there was exised dialogue in the film that will be in the novel where Rose and Hux have a confrontation where he's basically the evil overlord sneering at the scrappy serf. There won't be (knock wood) Broom Boi rebellion in IX. But the question still stands, we know the FO as embodied by Hux blowing up an entire system, killing unarmed escape pods, and as a rep of the group exploiting places like Rose's homeworld is corrupt and needs to be taken down. But as the leader by secret coup, Kylo's 100% personal interests. There's no real ideology on his part, or Rey's for that matter. So how are they even going to tackle this in IX?

Darth Dementor wrote:

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:Clever of the author to not delve too deeply - worried about Rey's lack of compassion - unless its setting the scene for her to be more of a 'grey' character. Which is fine by me. Maybe her anger and disappointment are controlling her at the moment, and she needs time to think over their last meeting, and its implications. Because Kylo won me over more than Rey at the end of TLJ - with just one word: please.

@motherofpearl1

Kylo not seeing any compassion in Rey's face just breaks my heart for him even more. But how can she not have ANY compassion remaining for him? I find that hard to believe after everything that went down. I'm going to assume that it's just his interpretation because he's in a very sad place after losing her. I'm still frustrated at how ambiguous Rey and her feelings are in Act 3 of this story, but I guess it's Rian's just leaving the door wide open for Episode IX. I guess if I stick with many of our "angry wife telling her husband to sleep on the couch because he's been a jerk" headcanons, then I guess the no compassion thing still fits?

@Cowgirlsamurai

Rian may have left Rey's feeling ambiguous but I'm positive they will end up together just because they both saw a vision of them with each other, standing side by side. TLJ out and out said they will reconcile.  The real question is which side will they end up on? And/or for how long? Will Kylo temporarily woo Rey to the dark only for them to both eventually pull out or will Rey finally sway him back home, without ever being tempted by her darker impulses?

@Darth Dementor

I don't see Rey ever going to the dark side. She seems completely comfortable exploring (ahem) the dark without giving herself over to it (We already saw her do this in VIII). Kylo is the one who feels "pulled to the light" so he will have to be the one to make the switch, in my opinion.

Irina de France wrote:I think one of the big problems here is that TPTB failed to make the Resistance truly interesting. Seriously, they're basically a copy-paste of the Rebellion but boring. I guess the argument is that there was a lot more time to develop the Rebellion (like, 40 years, lol), but the Resistance... just falls flat. Like, I love Finn, and Rose, and I enjoyed Holdo and Paige too, but I just can't bring myself to care about the Resistance. I do have the Cobalt Squadron book that's all about Rose, Paige and Tallie Lintra (haven't read it yet), but it's like Lucasfilm just gets lazy when it comes to the Resistance.

That's not to say I don't want the Resistance to win - but I realize more and more that I don't want the Resistance to win, I want THE CAUSE they fight for to win. And what really didn't help is that when it came to the fight with the Good Guys (Resistance) versus the Bad Guys (First Order), TLJ and all the additional material pretty much how utterly absurd it was. The First Order is evil, without the shadow of a doubt. The Resistance? I could sum it up with Goody Goode McGoody Goodee Two-Shoes. They want to restore a government that s*cked so bad back in the days Palpatine managed to take over "with thunderous applause", as Padmé once said. When said Republic came back, it was the exact same thing with the exact same problems, with Mon Mothma trying to hold everything together and eventually having to retire (read here: she had a burnout).

Meanwhile, what was happening with planets like Tatooine and Jakku? The Republic in both cases kept on ignoring them. Heck, Luke in TLJ went around saying that the Jedi of old s*cked, and Yoda's Force Ghost showed up to pretty much say: "Yeah, we screwed it up." The planets that eventually joined the FO, according to Bloodline, were all planets who had it hard during the Empire's time and didn't have any help from the New Republic.

You have Leia who leaves the New Republic and founds the Resistance partly out of frustration, and she goes and fights again, because that's what's she's good at - but who helps people like Rey? Who helps people like Rose and Paige who didn't have the luck of joining the Resistance like they did? Who lifts a single finger for all the kids that got kidnapped from their homes as infants and became child soldiers for the First Order?

No one.

The whole point of Finn and Rose's arc that big gestures and blowing up stuff may look cool, but ultimately, it's pointless. The Falthiers may have been freed, but those kids who took care of them are still enslaved and still mistreated.

So yeah, maybe Lucasfilm *wants* me to root for the Resistance, but what? I have to root for them going all pew-pew while giving each other hi-fives and have things go back exactly as they were, while the characters among them who have potential become as cardboard-ish and boring as the rest? If that's the point, Finn and Rose's plot as well as Poe's plot become bland and generic in the worst way possible, and it's just pointless. Like, yeah, maybe I *have* to root for the Resistance, but I feel like it's getting shoved down my throat more than anything else.

@Irina de France


OMG you articulated everything much better than I could but seriously everything you said is just so true.Like for example the OT didn't really focus on the Rebellion but we understood why Luke,Leia and Han would join it. In the ST Finn and Rey but especially Rey are pretty much members of the Resistance because they're heroes not because they have some serious motivation of their own.I mean both of these characters have such interesting backgrounds yet the writers aren't willing to use them because the're the good guys and because of that they have to automatically be on the Resistance's side.Seriously there was no reason to delete the scene where Finn pleads the other Stormtroopers to join them not only would it have served to showcase Finn's Stormtrooper roots being put into use but also another side of the FO one which we didn't see with the Empire but of course we couldn't have the FO be humanized no matter how evil they're shown to be so Finn's big arc in the movie is to become part of the Resistance(while being sidelined by Poe in the process)even though he's aware that they're sing the same means as the FO to win and people like Rose have no idea about it.I get what they were trying to do with his arc and on paper sounds good but the execution just leaves you somewhat unsatisfied when you know it could have been done so much better.
As for Rey I've already discussed her being a cheerleader for the Resistance for no purpose before but I'm just going to say again that it would be a big lost of potential if we don't see Rey struggling with supporting the restoration of a system who's done nothing for her and other people like her.I think Rey shares a lot of similarities with Anakin(much more than Ben I would say)but the main difference is that Anakin was allowed to have doubts about the Republic and the Jedi Order while Rey hasn't been given those complexities...for no reason really.

@Irina de France

Despite arguing against the idea of the Resistance being meant to be all that questionable, I agree with this. I have practically zero interest in the Resistance's future and I'm disappointed that Poe was let off the hook so easily, that the advertised grey was minimized, and that Finn's big moment revolved around him going all in for the Resistance. I'd love for the situation to be more complex, but the end of TLJ simply didn't give me that impression. I think the extent of the story's complexity will revolve around Kylo, honestly.

ZioRen wrote:@Irina de France

Despite arguing against the idea of the Resistance being meant to be all that questionable, I agree with this. I have practically zero interest in the Resistance's future and I'm disappointed that Poe was let off the hook so easily, that the advertised grey was minimized, and that Finn's big moment revolved around him going all in for the Resistance.

@ZioRen
Oh, I'm on this page too. The Resistance is boring as all hell (honestly, FO vs. Resistance doesn't give off the vibe of underdog vs. military powerhouse at all, but rather military powerhouse vs. military powerhouse), but I do believe in what Rose and the others are fighting for. I support that. We'll see where JJ takes it in IX. Honestly, a lot of it relies on JJ's willingness to bus Poe.

Re: compassion, I believe it’s quite clear we’re presented with Kylo’s internal thoughts. It’s all from his POV, i.e. what he thinks Rey thinks of him. It’s the most typical fairytale conclusion possible for a second chapter in a trilogy. It’s logical, necessary and very, very encouraging. Not only am I not worried, that’s actually one of my favourite parts along with Rey’s relief when he appears and she realises he is the one she needs not to feel alone. They've both disobeyed their masters and put their lives at risk for each other’s sake. Most importantly, they’ve already wormed their way into each other’s hearts. It’s way too late for hatred or lack of compassion. That might have been possible when Rey could still conveniently see Kylo as a monster. But he is forever Ben to her now. The lack of compassion ship has sailed. Rey has already seen Ben’s future (note, future, not past), which is just about the most glaringly obvious redemption clue imaginable. They literally spell out everything for us. It’s so textbook-like structurally, it’s not ever funny. All that’s happening here is that we’re currently in the “she hates me, I’ve lost everything, there is no hope left, I’ve messed it all up” stage, which is pretty much the only way the second chapter could have ended. But that’s all over. We’re roughly 2.5 hours away from the end and it’s actually less because the moment they meet again for the first time in IX, those feelings will immediately be stirred up again, most likely culminating in some sort of union at the end against the remaining FO (or earlier, against those who are not in favour of their bond cause it's almost too tempting of an opportunity to miss, e.g. Rey going from “he might be too far gone after all” to “but you don’t really know him, Ben is not like that, I know him”). Right now it all seems lost in Ben’s mind. He believes Rey has no compassion left because in his mind there is no reason for her to feel any. No one hates him more than he hates himself after all. She is indeed angry with him, bitterly disappointed. But that doesn’t mean that she has no compassion left. All you need is to take a look at her desperate, heartbroken look when she realises it won’t work out this time, the way she hesitates against her better judgement in front of the ship door when she seem him, her sad, tender smile when she watches Finn with Rose and the sorrowful expression on her face while talking to Leia and hold onto the saber. If that was supposed to signify indifference, it didn’t translate very well on screen. “They would never have to be alone again.” I think that sums up Rey’s sentiments on the matter and what her heart desires. They’re both in denial after their disagreement, of course. Ben is even in denial about two different things, one is his family and the light inside of him, and the other is his feelings for Rey. The latter one he is unable to maintain for long, however, judging by his face at the end. Which just makes his whole tirade directed at Luke (where he speaks Rey’s name "as if it was poison", that's brilliant) all the more ironic and kind of hilarious. The details of the Luke encounter might be my favourite thing. Luke searches his eyes and sees fury and hurt. It is very similar to the way he probably felt long ago about his parents and thought they might see him as a monster and abandon him. Oh, sweet, sweet, necessary angst! It also confirms what we all know and have always known, i.e. Ben loves his family, he loves his mother (“love and sadness”), no one affects him like Rey does and he cannot hide it, and he even loves his uncle who also loves him and cares for him deeply (they’ll have a little talk at some point no doubt, but for now he had to leave him alone). They all care and compassion is not lost because SW IS compassion. That’s literally what this saga is about. Ben needs to think he is left all on his own, he needs this tough lesson to realise what he must do and save himself. Just a little bit longer.

To quote Adam Driver in this interview https://youtu.be/wZfmLur5Iqk
"This kind of greek drama (First Order vs Resistance) that is happening around them, at the center of it are these two people who are on opposite sides but are divided by something very thin, the dark and light that exists in both of us, they're not far off from each other, and in a way when they're together, like when they feel alone, they're almost each others opposites in a great way"

That people is what the trilogy is about, everything else is background noise

Yeah I find it hard to care about the resistance even tho they're fighting for a good cause and despite any shades of grey the movies might give them, they're still a lot better than the FO.And I agree that's probably mostly because almost every resistance character isn't really given a personal reason to be so invested and their whole arcs revolve around the resistance.
And also I feel like they're all kinda similar,they're not so different in personalities like we had with Han,Leia and Luke so that makes it less interesting.

As for Rey,I can buy her wanting to fight for the resistance because of who she is.She wants to help people and also easily gets attached.And I got the sense from TFA that she already was impressed and interested in them from her doll and the pilot helmet and her reaction to Finn telling her he's a member.It's just that I hope she isn't that resistance focused in IX because imo that it would be boring.So I'm hoping they really add some conflict to that plot and show Rey doubting and disagreeing with some things as well as some consequences of her having feelings and a connection with the enemy.

Mila95 wrote:Yeah I find it hard to care about the resistance even tho they're fighting for a good cause and despite any shades of grey the movies might give them, they're still a lot better than the FO.And I agree that's probably mostly because almost every resistance character isn't really given a personal reason to be so invested and their whole arcs revolve around the resistance.
And also I feel like they're all kinda similar,they're not so different in personalities like we had with Han,Leia and Luke so that makes it less interesting.

As for Rey,I can buy her wanting to fight for the resistance because of who she is.She wants to help people and also easily gets attached.And I got the sense from TFA that she already was impressed and interested in them from her doll and the pilot helmet and her reaction to Finn telling her he's a member.It's just that I hope she isn't that resistance focused in IX because imo that it would be boring.So I'm hoping they really add some conflict to that plot and show Rey doubting and disagreeing with some things as well as some consequences of her having feelings and a connection with the enemy.

@Mila95

Star Wars Rebels managed to make its characters ten times more interesting than the Resistance characters. And it's an animated show for kids. So imo, TPTB was just really lazy with them.

Irina de France wrote:

Mila95 wrote:Yeah I find it hard to care about the resistance even tho they're fighting for a good cause and despite any shades of grey the movies might give them, they're still a lot better than the FO.And I agree that's probably mostly because almost every resistance character isn't really given a personal reason to be so invested and their whole arcs revolve around the resistance.
And also I feel like they're all kinda similar,they're not so different in personalities like we had with Han,Leia and Luke so that makes it less interesting.

As for Rey,I can buy her wanting to fight for the resistance because of who she is.She wants to help people and also easily gets attached.And I got the sense from TFA that she already was impressed and interested in them from her doll and the pilot helmet and her reaction to Finn telling her he's a member.It's just that I hope she isn't that resistance focused in IX because imo that it would be boring.So I'm hoping they really add some conflict to that plot and show Rey doubting and disagreeing with some things as well as some consequences of her having feelings and a connection with the enemy.

@Mila95

Star Wars Rebels managed to make its characters ten times more interesting than the Resistance characters. And it's an animated show for kids. So imo, TPTB was just really lazy with them.

@Irina de France

It did seem like they were lazy about that.and just kinda relied on well they're the good guys and the actors are really charming and charismatic.Especially in TLJ it felt really apparent to me that the real effort was put in the Rey,Kylo,Luke stuff and that's what Rian cared most about.

I've seen a lot of discussion about Rey in the last few days so I'd thought I'd chime in with my thoughts. First things first, the no compassion thing doesn't really bother me as this is a closer representation of Rey's POV:



Kylo is very, very good at projecting and after he felt betrayed at the end by everyone he loves, it'd make sense that he would feel about Rey that way at the end. More importantly, after Rey leaves him, he feels her sentiment ('almost as if she cared') in not killing him will lead to her destruction. And yet, at the end, he's searching for compassion in her eyes. Like make up your mind man, lol.

Rey's connection to the Resistance might seem a bit half-baked and flimsy, but Finn was one of the first people to look out for her and help her. Ditto with Leia, Han etc. Why wouldn't she care about them? Something that's being overlooked IMO is that one of Rey's defining character traits (and her biggest flaw, perhaps) is that she's an idealist. She sees the world in black and white. Living in Jakku she no doubt heard many stories of the Resistance and in her mind, idolised them (putting the rebel pilot helmet on anyone?), just like she built up the legendary Skywalker family in her mind. This is why her union with, and getting to know Kylo on a deeper level is important not just in a shipping sense, but to challenge her worldview. How successful and to what level that impacted her arc in TLJ is for people to judge, but I do think it will stir up necessary conflict within her in IX.

This is going into slightly deeper territory now but Rey's attachment to the resistance is also a bit of a cover and almost like she's deflecting away from something else. Luke even explicitly calls her out on this when he realises there's something more going on with her coming to the island than just the resistance. As this beautiful meta puts it:

Rey’s a bit of a tsundere, I think. She doesn’t want anyone to know she’s deeply interested in Kylo and his history, and so she couches it within “acceptable” topics such as the jedi in general, Luke in particular, and the resistance. Yet she never talks about the First Order; she has no personal stake or interest in the First Order, only in one person who is a member of it. Her hedging around what she actually wants is interesting to me, because there’s no reason to hide it–of course she’d be curious about Kylo after what she went through with him in TFA. The concealment implies something more’s there that she doesn’t want revealed, and this is very interesting given she had similar responses to Kylo in TFA. When she had her vision of him after touching the saber the first time, her first impulse was to freak out, but she wouldn’t speak a word of why she was freaking out to Maz. A similar moment happens after the interrogation scene, when she’s reunited with Finn–Finn rightfully asks her if Kylo hurt her, and she deflects and doesn’t answer his question. There was no reason not to say “no, I’m fine, Finn, thanks for asking.” What Rey conceals or doesn’t speak at all says more about her I think than what she says on screen. This negative space is what makes her character compelling, and I think Rian has built extraordinarily well on the foundations JJ established in the first film.

A lot going on with Rey is implied and unspoken, I think, she's a very internal character. She actually hasn't grown much personality wise, rather her whole arc is one of self-acceptance. She isn't cynical or jaded which is very refreshing in this day and age. Although it may not appear that way on the surface, she is low on self-esteem and her arc stems from realising how *innately* powerful she is (which fits her maturing into womanhood perfectly).

Another interesting thing to note: the gender subversion (the way Kylo and Rey are presented where one is sexualised and the lack thereof with the other) has been noted a lot, but Rey also has very feminine wants and needs. She ultimately desires belonging and a family, not some grand desire to rule the galaxy. Both Kylo and her represent the masculine AND the feminine which I find utterly fascinating. It's not just a gender subversion.

In a lot of ways, she reminds me of old-fashioned classic literature heroines quite a bit. She's naive, innocent, there is a purity to her etc. Her conflicted feelings with regard to Kylo underline another common aspect of those type of heroines drawn to the 'bad boy' Byronic heroes: the need to deny the existence of those very feelings as it doesn't adhere to socially acceptable conventions. Kylo's struggle is that he's too emotionally vulnerable, his emotions are very present/near the surface, he feels things deeply etc. whilst Rey's struggle is that she buries her feelings so deep that she has partially lost touch with them. The biggest and most clear example is her repressing the trauma and truth about her parents, but her general lack of interactions with humans means she has little frame of reference for the new and alien desires awakening within her. This isn't a case of 'oh they're both madly in love but they're blinded by it and everyone can see it but them.' She can't put a proper label on to her feelings for Ben and so she thinks that she must be drawn to him due to virtue/honour/noble cause etc etc. She frames her refusal to kill him as something that the Force wouldn't want her to do in that moment but Rey is the Queen of Denial and her coming to terms with her feelings is a traditional part of romance stories and something she needs to come to terms with in IX.

I think Jason Fry has really captured her subconscious pull/attraction to Kylo very well in the novel. For example, in the hand touch scene, she doesn't think "I want to touch his hand, hair and face", it's more of her thinking about the possibility from a logistical POV as he's so close to her but again the fact that she's even thinking about his hair and face implies attraction. That she has a "terrifying realisation" about his churning feelings for her in the elevator is also interesting as it also implies she's scared of the intensity of them and of the possibility that she might give in to Kylo's feelings.

And finally, come on people. This is SW. I'll be shocked if Rey ends the trilogy with a lack of compassion even if she might not have it right now. It goes against its very values. It was easy for her to hate Kylo after TFA as he was a stranger who had committed many horrible acts but it won't be the same in IX. Now she knows him more intimately, hatred will be harder to come by. Conflicted feelings eventually leading to a realisation that she is in love is where this is going.

Here endeth the Rey meta.

I grew-up with the OT...so for me the Rebellion were without doubt the good guys. The Empire the evil dictatorship that ruled with an iron fist and enslaved people. But back then we didn't have a backstory to the Old Republic and it's flaws. And now that we know the New Republic failed again I just can't bring myself to be as enthusiastic. Mostly because we don't really know their plan...they aren't so much better than Kylo with his
"let's rule and bring a now order to the Galaxy".
They want to restore the Republic - but had they learned from their mistakes? How long till the next evil dictatorship will rise again?

Don't get me wrong- I'm all for the cause...I want those poor children freed, no beings oppressed no slavery and everybody in the Galaxy living a happy live. I'm just not sure how the Resistance want to accomplish that.

@MindAndMagic @Kylo Rey
Excellent posts! I like your thoughts here a lot.

Of course Ben doesn't think there's compassion in Rey. He loathes himself, so to his mind, why shouldn't she feel the same?

What Rey actually thinks, well, that's entirely different. I think Rey coming to terms with her feelings over Ben versus what she sees as right for the GFFA will be the central conflict of IX.

And oh yeah, there will be some pew-pew and lightsabers and stuff in there too.