Re: Romantic Reylo AKA the Who's Your Daddy Thread

[Moonlight13]

This is an interesting meta about birds in SW (it contains Reylo and "the birds and the bees" ):
https://clairen45.tumblr.com/post/174269194303/bird-is-the-word-avian-metaphor-and-mating-in

[adamdrivershair]

I've been thinking - I've seen enough people saying that they don't see any romance in the ST to make me wonder if we are meant to unequivocally recognize that the dynamic between Rey and Kylo is romantic. It's even causing me to second-guess myself.

So many people are asking, what's the hook for 9, what is the point of this trilogy? Shouldn't the movie have sufficiently illuminated that at this point? Is it supposed to be a surprise in 9?

If Reylo is indeed at the heart of everything, I feel like the creators shouldn't be shy about talking about it and underlining that this is the question of the trilogy. Yes, we have Rian confirming sexual subtext and Mark commenting on romantic chemistry, which is great. But just as Rey's motivations/feelings towards Kylo are kept relatively obscured in the latter half of TLJ, so too I think the creators are avoiding framing the questions of the story in a certain way (e.g. Rayne Roberts avoiding calling it "sexual" energy in the interrogation scene). I just don't get why. How does this help anything? Maybe the marketing will change?

[DeeBee]

I've been thinking - I've seen enough people saying that they don't see any romance in the ST to make me wonder if we are meant to unequivocally recognize that the dynamic between Rey and Kylo is romantic. It's even causing me to second-guess myself.

So many people are asking, what's the hook for 9, what is the point of this trilogy? Shouldn't the movie have sufficiently illuminated that at this point? Is it supposed to be a surprise in 9?

If Reylo is indeed at the heart of everything, I feel like the creators shouldn't be shy about talking about it and underlining that this is the question of the trilogy. Yes, we have Rian confirming sexual subtext and Mark commenting on romantic chemistry, which is great. But just as Rey's motivations/feelings towards Kylo are kept relatively obscured in the latter half of TLJ, so too I think the creators are avoiding framing the questions of the story in a certain way (e.g. Rayne Roberts avoiding calling it "sexual" energy in the interrogation scene). I just don't get why. How does this help anything? Maybe the marketing will change?

@adamdrivershair

Hang in there adamdrivershair- you are not alone!

I think the bolded is interesting!  If people are asking what is the hook for 9, what is the point of this trilogy- with the mindset that the movies should have sufficiently illuminated that at this point - I think this mindset is correct. Yes it should have given clues to this- And it has.. so keep looking lol. I think the hook is Kylo/Ben and Rey's fate - at this point whether you even see Reylo as endgame or not.
The movies are not going to make the conclusion so in your face it is obvious how things will end.. where is the drama and suspense and hook in that? It's not in your face, but it is there, and they do not see it. yet.

When I talk with others who are not convinced of bendemption or reylo as endgame - I figure the story is still unfolding, Kylo/Ben is not redeemed at this point.. rather he has just become SL! Soooo there is much story yet to tell, I can see signs of reylo endgame, but if others don't that's cool..
I think it is explicit that Kylo/Ben is conflicted, and still is at the end of TLJ - so how he will end up in IX is currently open to debate- because it hasn't happened yet.
It's the he's gone 100% evil at the end of TLJ view that I struggle with - not being convinced at this point that Ben will be redeemed I can get!

Just as the events of TLJ were a surprise to many in the GA, though reylos saw it coming, so too in IX the events will come as a surprise and hopefully reylo's will have seen it coming! I like to think that the GA will enjoy the reveal of endgame reylo once the story has unfolded..  (and if they don't sad for them, but it won't alter my own enjoyment!).

Marketing for IX? I'm prepared for the marketing to tease and mislead, potentially 'confirming' doomed Kylo/Ben even..
Bendemption or reylo endgame are too spoilery.  I'm ready for it lol. Got to keep the suspense happening!
Fun times ahead!!! It's great we are not alone in this tee hee..

[californiagirl]

I've been thinking - I've seen enough people saying that they don't see any romance in the ST to make me wonder if we are meant to unequivocally recognize that the dynamic between Rey and Kylo is romantic. It's even causing me to second-guess myself.

So many people are asking, what's the hook for 9, what is the point of this trilogy? Shouldn't the movie have sufficiently illuminated that at this point? Is it supposed to be a surprise in 9?

If Reylo is indeed at the heart of everything, I feel like the creators shouldn't be shy about talking about it and underlining that this is the question of the trilogy. Yes, we have Rian confirming sexual subtext and Mark commenting on romantic chemistry, which is great. But just as Rey's motivations/feelings towards Kylo are kept relatively obscured in the latter half of TLJ, so too I think the creators are avoiding framing the questions of the story in a certain way (e.g. Rayne Roberts avoiding calling it "sexual" energy in the interrogation scene). I just don't get why. How does this help anything? Maybe the marketing will change?

@adamdrivershair

I ask this quite often on here, and I'm never sure how much fault lies with the film and how much is the audience. Given the surging popularity of Reylo after TLJ, I think the movie highlighted the core dynamic enough to be convincing. Those who don't recognize it are missing out.

I've always thought the lack of talking about it is to 1. Maintain the mystery, because if everyone has guessed the end, there isn't much of a hook to draw people in, and 2. Because with Kylo as Supreme Leader and being generally unstable and making awful life decisions, it wouldn't be a great look for people to think Rey has feelings for him, even if it's somewhat to the detriment of her onscreen characterization.

Plus they aren't talking much about it yet because Solo just came out and IX hasn't even filmed. I'm expecting more details about upcoming SW projects in the near future, despite the cries that Solo's BO failure spells doom for SW and that it is dead and Disney killed it and KK should be fired and.......

SW will be fine. One misstep does not mean the end of all things. Reylo will live, and all will be well.

[Saracene]

I've been thinking - I've seen enough people saying that they don't see any romance in the ST to make me wonder if we are meant to unequivocally recognize that the dynamic between Rey and Kylo is romantic. It's even causing me to second-guess myself.

So many people are asking, what's the hook for 9, what is the point of this trilogy? Shouldn't the movie have sufficiently illuminated that at this point? Is it supposed to be a surprise in 9?

If Reylo is indeed at the heart of everything, I feel like the creators shouldn't be shy about talking about it and underlining that this is the question of the trilogy. Yes, we have Rian confirming sexual subtext and Mark commenting on romantic chemistry, which is great. But just as Rey's motivations/feelings towards Kylo are kept relatively obscured in the latter half of TLJ, so too I think the creators are avoiding framing the questions of the story in a certain way (e.g. Rayne Roberts avoiding calling it "sexual" energy in the interrogation scene). I just don't get why. How does this help anything? Maybe the marketing will change?

@adamdrivershair

I've actually seen very few discussions about character dynamics in the ST, period. Not to get stereotypical, but the SW discussions are usually dominated by male fans and they're usually about things like lore and world-building rather than characters and their relationships. So the discussions going into TLJ were about things like, who is Snoke and what's Rey's heritage, not, how will the relationship between Kylo and Rey progress in this movie.

Also, Reylo might just not stand out as *the* centre of the trilogy to many people, because these films have other storylines and other characters taking up plenty of time. I mean, we came out of TFA buzzing about the Reylo scenes, but realistically they took up a very small sliver of the film.

[snufkin]

@adamdrivershair - At this point, anybody who's arguing that they don't see romance is either watching the film with small children (hence so much of the sexual themes being coded/subtext), they don't follow everything that the filmmakers and actors have said/done, or they're simply being a blockhead. There are an awful lot of blockheads out there, especially within the legacy SW fanbase. It's not that they don't see it, it's that they don't want to see it because they walked into the ST as pre-existing fans with a checklist of expectations. And because they were already active in fandom communities/online spaces, they were pretty loud about it (hence the whole sordid history of how this place came about).

In terms of IX, it isn't really so much whether or not things will be romantic and resolve as such, it's whether or not the filmmakers will continue to explore and resolve the romantic subplot in IX. Because it's building on what's come before and which lucky for us, the director/screenwriter is one of the people who initially set it up. Could they discard it or whiff it the way they did things with the story back in the OT era? Sure. But it won't be because of what The Internet or Fandom wanted, because if that were the case we'd have a stirring epic trilogy about the Adventures of Rey Solo-Skywalker and the Beautiful Friendship Gang with their Awesome Karate Master, Luke Skywalker.

FWIW, I think it's more that this is meant to be a romance and the central relationship/most interesting thing they're doing with the ST has flipped into the mainstream. It's the "it's not a romance" or "this is wrong" crowd who are the actual outliers. The question is just how are they going to bring back these two characters, who have to work together for the greater good despite their respective sides, and also have them come to terms with their respective childhood traumas while also figuring out how they feel about each other and what to do about it. At this point I'm pretty comfortable with that things will work out in the end for our space nerds, it's just a matter of how it works out and hoping that the filmmakers come up with an arc that does justice to the characters and their relationship. Also a given that whatever decisions the filmmakers make, there are going to be people screaming their heads off about how it's wrong and a betrayal of whatever sacred cows they hold as a fan. If anybody thinks that the levels of hysteria and fighting are ugly over TLJ, that's just an amuse bouche of what's going to happen with IX. Especially if we see the outcome our group has predicted from the beginning.

[Moonlight13]

@adamdrivershair - At this point, anybody who's arguing that they don't see romance is either watching the film with small children (hence so much of the sexual themes being coded/subtext), they don't follow everything that the filmmakers and actors have said/done,  or they're simply being a blockhead. There are an awful lot of blockheads out there, especially within the legacy SW fanbase. It's not that they don't see it, it's that they don't want to see it because they walked into the ST as pre-existing fans with a checklist of expectations. And because they were already active in fandom communities/online spaces, they were pretty loud about it (hence the whole sordid history of how this place came about).

In terms of IX, it isn't really so much whether or not things will be romantic and resolve as such, it's whether or not the filmmakers will continue to explore and resolve the romantic subplot in IX. Because it's building on what's come before and which lucky for us, the director/screenwriter is one of the people who initially set it up. Could they discard it or whiff it the way they did things with the story back in the OT era? Sure. But it won't be because of what The Internet or Fandom wanted, because if that were the case we'd have a stirring epic trilogy about the Adventures of Rey Solo-Skywalker and the Beautiful Friendship Gang with their Awesome Karate Master, Luke Skywalker.

FWIW, I think it's more that this is meant to be a romance and the central relationship/most interesting thing they're doing with the ST has flipped into the mainstream. It's the "it's not a romance" or "this is wrong" crowd who are the actual outliers. The question is just how are they going to bring back these two characters, who have to work together for the greater good despite their respective sides, and also have them come to terms with their respective childhood traumas while also figuring out how they feel about each other and what to do about it. At this point I'm pretty comfortable with that things will work out in the end for our space nerds, it's just a matter of how it works out and hoping that the filmmakers come up with an arc that does justice to the characters and their relationship. Also a given that whatever decisions the filmmakers make, there are going to be people screaming their heads off about how it's wrong and a betrayal of whatever sacred cows they hold as a fan. If anybody thinks that the levels of hysteria and fighting are ugly over TLJ, that's just an amuse bouche of what's going to happen with IX. Especially if we see the outcome our group has predicted from the beginning.

@snufkin
I can already imagine it, something like this: #NotmySW #NotmyRey #JarJarAbramskilledSW #It'sTwilightinspace

[Kylo Rey]

@adamdrivershair - At this point, anybody who's arguing that they don't see romance is either watching the film with small children (hence so much of the sexual themes being coded/subtext), they don't follow everything that the filmmakers and actors have said/done,  or they're simply being a blockhead. There are an awful lot of blockheads out there, especially within the legacy SW fanbase. It's not that they don't see it, it's that they don't want to see it because they walked into the ST as pre-existing fans with a checklist of expectations. And because they were already active in fandom communities/online spaces, they were pretty loud about it (hence the whole sordid history of how this place came about).

In terms of IX, it isn't really so much whether or not things will be romantic and resolve as such, it's whether or not the filmmakers will continue to explore and resolve the romantic subplot in IX. Because it's building on what's come before and which lucky for us, the director/screenwriter is one of the people who initially set it up. Could they discard it or whiff it the way they did things with the story back in the OT era? Sure. But it won't be because of what The Internet or Fandom wanted, because if that were the case we'd have a stirring epic trilogy about the Adventures of Rey Solo-Skywalker and the Beautiful Friendship Gang with their Awesome Karate Master, Luke Skywalker.

FWIW, I think it's more that this is meant to be a romance and the central relationship/most interesting thing they're doing with the ST has flipped into the mainstream. It's the "it's not a romance" or "this is wrong" crowd who are the actual outliers. The question is just how are they going to bring back these two characters, who have to work together for the greater good despite their respective sides, and also have them come to terms with their respective childhood traumas while also figuring out how they feel about each other and what to do about it. At this point I'm pretty comfortable with that things will work out in the end for our space nerds, it's just a matter of how it works out and hoping that the filmmakers come up with an arc that does justice to the characters and their relationship. Also a given that whatever decisions the filmmakers make, there are going to be people screaming their heads off about how it's wrong and a betrayal of whatever sacred cows they hold as a fan. If anybody thinks that the levels of hysteria and fighting are ugly over TLJ, that's just an amuse bouche of what's going to happen with IX. Especially if we see the outcome our group has predicted from the beginning.

@snufkin
I can already imagine it, something like this: #NotmySW #NotmyRey #JarJarAbramskilledSW #It'sTwilightinspace

@Moonlight13

#NotmyRey2019



It's gonna be absolute chaos

[Mila95]

I do feel like romantic reylo is apparent to most people and it's gone mainstream after TLJ.But not everyone who sees it in TLJ thinks it's gonna be a full blown romance,some see it as just teasing,or one sided,as a cautionary tale of don't fall for bad boys,or it will be tragic because Kylo will die etc.Those who don't see it at all usually seem to also think Rey is gonna be revealed as a Skywalker after all or really want her with someone else.

LF and Rian have been pretty open about reylo imo.They haven't used the words like love or something because that's not even in the movie yet and they're not at that stage but stuff like being drawn to each other,having a connection or attraction has been pointed out a lot.And I think that makes sense.We've had strongly established romances by the second movie in the OT and the PT but those romances had a lot less ground to cover than an enemies to lovers dynamic so it makes sense reylo will be developed slower,more subtly and with less overt declarations of feelings at this point in the story.
So I agree that the people who don't see there are strong non platonic feelings involved and that that will play a big role in IX basically just don't want to see it.

[snufkin]

@Moonlight13 @Kylo Rey #Leiaf**kingtheBadBaywasmychildhoodandIgrewuptobeafeminist

If you thought people screaming about how Solo fails the Bechdel Test*, how Rey's whole purpose is to be a blank slate of bland female empowerment platitudes, or even taking that dumb USA Today Sex in Star Wars article (spoiler alert my dudes, it's already happened) seriously were insane, that's going to be nothing compared to 2019. Even the whole run up to TLJ's release when we started getting hints that our suspicions of what story was being told were correct, the reaction from some quarters was certainly interesting. "I'm open-minded as long as Rian Johnson is going to tell an interesting story" has already become how it's either "inconsistent" or "not as good as Rogue One."


*nevermind it's an outdated/imperfect benchmark & how having parity in casting for films that are glorified prequels to a film series that was an Old Boys Club is almost historic revisionism the same way the Special Editions are.

[Cowgirlsamurai]

@Moonlight13 @Kylo Rey #Leiaf**kingtheBadBaywasmychildhoodandIgrewuptobeafeminist

If you thought people screaming about how Solo fails the Bechdel Test*, how Rey's whole purpose is to be a blank slate of bland female empowerment platitudes, or even taking that dumb USA Today Sex in Star Wars article (spoiler alert my dudes, it's already happened) seriously were insane, that's going to be nothing compared to 2019. Even the whole run up to TLJ's release when we started getting hints that our suspicions of what story was being told were correct, the reaction from some quarters was certainly interesting. "I'm open-minded as long as Rian Johnson is going to tell an interesting story" has already become how it's either "inconsistent" or "not as good as Rogue One."


*nevermind it's an outdated/imperfect benchmark & how having parity in casting for films that are glorified prequels to a film series that was an Old Boys Club is almost historic revisionism the same way the Special Editions are.

@snufkin

I’ve mentioned Solo not passing the Bechdel test before because I think it easily COULD have, even if it were just Qi’ra and L3 talking about something other than Lando for a moment, but I don’t think the film would be more enjoyable if it did. Generally, the male characters in SW films are more interesting to me. More thought seems to go in to their development. I just wish the creators thought about how the females’ purpose and stories came off to female viewers. Like Val. Many have pointed out that she’s a great character who dies too soon just to add emotional weight to Beckett’s situation. (Did they just feel the need to throw another woman in to the film and not know what to do with her?) I feel like Bechdel is the minimum of what a film could pass to show that the creators put any thought in to the value of their female characters, but is it necessary for me to enjoy a film? Nope. I appreciated the moments between women in TLJ though

But yeah, the screaming about how Reylo is abusive/creepy/chauvinistic is going to get louder once promo for IX starts.

[snufkin]

@Cowgirlsamurai - maybe it's the perspective of somebody whose childhood was watching Leia in the OT, but I find "it fails the Bechdel Test" criticism to be way too simplistic in looking at the new films. Carrie Fisher joked up until her death about Leia being the only woman in that galaxy as a jab at the "Only Girl" trope. Other than Mon Mothma, when was she ever in the same room as another woman? Let alone being given space to actually have another woman to confide/articulate her emotions to? Her entire emotional arc is doing in concert with Han and Luke, usually as a reactive character. One of the best parts of the ST is simply in showing a world where there are women in multitudes, from major to minor roles. The scene with L3 and Qi'ra is completely radical in allowing women (well, a woman and a female-identifying droid) to have the space to have that type of discussion. That never would've occurred to somebody like George Lucas in any of the previous films. The fact that they're talking about men is a quibble IMO when it's finally depicting women having those discussions and articulating these parts of their interior lives which never would've existed with the OT/PT status quo. So far for the ST we've had one conversation between Rey and Maz about the Force and her parents and two scenes (one nearly silent) between Rey and Leia and Leia and Holdo which qualify it for the Bechdel Test. I guess if you can leave out the parts where Rey and Leia talk about Luke and Leia and Holdo talk about Poe. We'll likely see Rey and Rose together and the question becomes what will JJ and Terrio write for their conversations? So far the only person who's allowed her to actually give voice to her deepest fears and emotions has been Ben.

The other criticism I've seen of Qi'ra is that being a femme fatale is "a tired old trope" and it's like JFC, at least educate yourselves a little bit about the genre and film history before making that declaration. Because pre-Code and Golden Age of Hollywood films frequently present far more complicated and true to life women than what you'd find in most contemporary pop culture. I've been reading a lot of what the filmmaker Anna Biller has said on the topic and that tends to shape my thinking

To be feminist, a movie has to have the express purpose of educating its audience about social inequality between men and women (and, I would argue, not take pleasure in the voyeuristic degradation or destruction of women). The movies by Dorothy Arzner come to mind, especially DANCE, GIRL, DANCE (1940), but many movies from the ‘30s through the ‘50s, especially from the pre-code era, highlighted the struggles of women in a man’s world, creating empathy and admiration for its female characters. People who are not familiar with classic movies often subscribe to the false notion that since women have more rights now, the movies now have better roles for women; but history isn’t always linear in that way. The typical woman’s picture from the ‘30s or ‘40s featured a female protagonist who was so bold and dimensional that she would be nearly unthinkable in today’s market.

I find the parameters of the Bechdel Test to be so stupid. How about looking at a movie as a whole rather than in terms of a flippant test? And what's wrong with women talking to or about men? Just another pop culture inanity that reduces women's lives to cliches.

— Anna Biller (@missannabiller) March 28, 2018

IDK - I think Solo is working within the confines both of very specific genres and film traditions, which in many ways trotting out the Bechdel Test to evaluate its female characters doesn't work. They should have made better use of Val than just killing her off in the first act, the implications of L3 wanting liberation and instead her consciousness was uploaded to the Falcon for eternity, there's a lot where they definitely screwed up. But especially with a character like Qi'ra, even just calling her a femme fatale is reducing her to a stock character when she's somebody who's identified as a survivor and you can debate about her choices in the end - how much of it makes her a victim versus how much about it is about playing a long con to survive in that environment? And yes, just thinking about how people reacted that way to Solo, the discussions around IX are going to be absolutely nuclear.

[californiagirl]

And yes, just thinking about how people reacted that way to Solo, the discussions around IX are going to be absolutely nuclear.

@snufkin

"Nuclear" may be the best description of the impending, inevitable reaction to IX I have ever heard.

[DeeBee]

@snufkin - Funny you should mention this only girl trope snufkin, I watched A New Hope from start to finish the other day and I was genuinely taken aback that from the moment the trio joins the rebellion on Yavin - Leia is the only girl!!! and there are crowds of people.. And during the battle, it looked like all the people in leadership were white old men with grey beards.. No female pilots etc.
The rebellion/ resistance/new republic must have had fantastic diversity policies and procedures tee hee..

Honestly, it was a bit of a shock to me, I love the OT and grew up with it.. I totally get that this was a product of it's time, and it makes me appreciate the advances that have been made in SW since- and how so many characters are now women, not token women- and characters are diverse in many other ways also...

And yes, just thinking about how people reacted that way to Solo, the discussions around IX are going to be absolutely nuclear.

@snufkin

"Nuclear" may be the best description of the impending, inevitable reaction to IX I have ever heard.

@californiagirl

I love this too! I will not be hiding in my bunker when this explodes - I'll be sitting right up front enjoying the show!!

[SheLitAFire]

But can we talk about that Tiffany Hadish MTV awards Reylo opening???



It's not on youtube yet, but here's a link to someone's Twitter who recorded it on tv.
https://mobile.twitter.com/sadreyloshipper/status/1008886566520016897/video/1

[whisperingwillow]

But can we talk about that Tiffany Hadish MTV awards Reylo opening???



It's not on youtube yet, but here's a link to someone's Twitter who recorded it on tv.
https://mobile.twitter.com/sadreyloshipper/status/1008886566520016897/video/1

@SheLitAFire

http://www.mtv.com/video-clips/xjxsy6/movie-tv-awards-2018-tiffany-haddish-has-a-deep-connection-with-kylo-ren

[SheLitAFire]

Tiffany is all of us lmao.

"Do you have a gf?"
"No."
"Then who is this b----?"
Lol

[LadyHa]

Oh my goodness, Tiffany is a treasure! That skit makes me so happy, and the vibrator part makes it just a bit deliciously shocking. Bravo.

[rey09]

Tiffany is all of us lmao.

"Do you have a gf?"
"No."
"Then who is this b----?"
Lol

@SheLitAFire

LMAOO OMG THIS IS INCREDIBLE!!! ANOTHER REYLO GIFT!!!
"You're like a f*****d up keanu reeves"

LMAO DEAD

[SheLitAFire]

Adam attended the awards, didn't he? I thought someone said he attended, but maybe not.

[LadyHa]

Adam attended the awards, didn't he?

@SheLitAFire
I don’t know - I don’t think he attended for The Force Awakens awards.

“It was just a shirtless conversation!”

[special_cases]

OMG I'm here for jealous Rey. This is the best! I love how Tiffany was trying to make Kylo "comfortable"!

[rey09]

OMG I'm here for jealous Rey. This is the best! I love how Tiffany was trying to make Kylo "comfortable"!

@special_cases

I dig jealous rey. Add some fire to episode 9!

[Riri]

Its on youtube!

[Kessel]

Tiffany is all of us lmao.

"Do you have a gf?"
"No."
"Then who is this b----?"
Lol

@SheLitAFire

LMAOO OMG THIS IS INCREDIBLE!!! ANOTHER REYLO GIFT!!!
"You're like a f*****d up keanu reeves"

LMAO DEAD

@rey09

I literally burst out laughing when she said that. It was the most hilarious part! Followed closely by the Reylotastic “then who is this b.....?”

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