Re: Romantic Reylo AKA the Who's Your Daddy Thread

[IoJovi]

I think you all know where I stood prior to TLJ.  I never lost hope, even in the case of that utterly senseless Vanity Fair article.  Vindication is so freaking wonderful!!!  

[Teo oswald]

I think you all know where I stood prior to TLJ.  I never lost hope, even in the case of that utterly senseless Vanity Fair article.  Vindication is so freaking wonderful!!!  

@IoJovi

you said damn well I'm so proud to have discovered this fandom!!!
  in times of difficulty I take refuge in this site, it's like a big family, it lifts my spirit and then it's always nice to talk about Reylo

[IoJovi]

I think you all know where I stood prior to TLJ.  I never lost hope, even in the case of that utterly senseless Vanity Fair article.  Vindication is so freaking wonderful!!!  

@IoJovi

you said damn well I'm so proud to have discovered this fandom!!!  
  in times of difficulty I take refuge in this site, it's like a big family, it lifts my spirit and then it's always nice to talk about Reylo

@Teo oswald

This site rocks over all the a billion and one dudebro SW sites on the Internet.  Sometimes I try to venture out, but I almost always run away screaming.   I should learn my lesson by now...

[californiagirl]

I think you all know where I stood prior to TLJ.  I never lost hope, even in the case of that utterly senseless Vanity Fair article.  Vindication is so freaking wonderful!!!  

@IoJovi

you said damn well I'm so proud to have discovered this fandom!!!  
  in times of difficulty I take refuge in this site, it's like a big family, it lifts my spirit and then it's always nice to talk about Reylo

@Teo oswald

This site rocks over all the a billion and one dudebro SW sites on the Internet.  Sometimes I try to venture out, but I almost always run away screaming.   I should learn my lesson by now...

@IoJovi

I feel you so much. It took months, but I finally figured that out. It's a little sad when you realize some of your favorite internet places, and sometimes mainstream SW fandom as a whole, are actually kind of jerks.

At least Reylo isn't nearly as niche as it was.

[Teo oswald]

episode VII ---

my family will be back one day

episode VIII ---

Ben please don't go this way

episode IX---

you're back... - Yes I am

my family will be back one day it's a foreshadowing of Ben Solo!!

[12 Parsnips]

episode VII ---

my family will be back one day

episode VIII ---

Ben please don't go this way

episode IX---

you're back... - Yes I am

my family will be back one day it's a foreshadowing of Ben Solo!!

@Teo oswald

Yes! "Whomever you're waiting for on Jakku, they're never coming back. But there's someone who still could."

[Teo oswald]

this is not a reverse anidala but....that's amazing

   

 

elevator scene !!!

if the eyes could speak.....

[Kylo Rey]

Getoffthesoapbox from tumblr is continuing her amazing TLJ first impressions meta series (I highly, highly recommend you read her fantastic meta on Rey's trajectory in TLJ), with her analysis of Reylo:

There is something peculiar about how JJ Abrams directed the interrogation scene in The Force Awakens that always strikes me every time I rewatch: whatever it is Kylo and Rey are seeing in each other’s heads, the audience isn’t allowed to see it with them.
Now, this is something that used to be fairly common place in older films, but I don’t see it utilized as often (or as effectively) anymore–censoring the audience from specific aspects of the characters’ thoughts or what they’re seeing, allowing the audience’s imagination to “fill in the blanks” with all the wonderful, dreadful possibilities their sordid minds can come up with. In other words, leaving the viewer to be little more than a nosy neighbor, a peeping tom, or a spy–able to see the movements and possibly hear the verbal discussions of the characters, but unable to see any further than what the frame of the window will allow. In general, all films have a voyeuristic aspect to them–we are being shown peeks into the characters’ lives, and very often into their thoughts/dreams/fantasies/visions. But the type of voyeurism I’m talking about here is the art of being a real voyeur–someone who is not “part” of the scene, but an outsider intruding upon it. In most films, the purpose of the director and the cinematography and staging are to remove the viewer from the cognitive dissonance of being at once “part” of the film and “outside” of it. Yet at times, allowing this mental distress to overcome the viewer works wonders for artistic effect and creates a whole new “world” that the viewer can experience.
Ordinarily if a director was going to approach a force bonding scene like the interrogation scene in the more seamless manner to keep the viewer immersed in the film, the best way to go about it would be to cut to some kind of mental “dream sequence” where we see what each of the characters is seeing as they enter each other’s minds (a bit more akin to the force vision scene Rey receives when she touches the saber the first time or even her dreamlike “descent into the womb” in TLJ). This allows the viewer to participate along with the characters in what they’re experiencing, the faithful stalker tagging along in romps through the mind. When films are cut this way, the viewer isn’t made aware (or isn’t reminded) of the fact that they’re voyeurs–they become “part” of the protagonist’s story.
What JJ does in the interrogation scene (and later in the second force bond scene at the edge of the cliff during the snow fight) is establish a space where the viewer cannot go. We instead become a bystander, a true voyeur–no longer are we a privileged godling capable of peering into these characters’ minds; instead, we are (as we are in real life, with real people) forced to interpret their faces, their words, and their body language in order to understand what’s happening between them. JJ helps us a bit with some nice sound cues, but other than that he leaves us in the dark. This creates a space where the viewer is “separate” from the story–these characters become, for a brief moment, no longer characters, but people and we, the audience, have stumbled upon a moment between them that was never meant for our eyes.
What this does is create an aura of mystery and heighten the intimacy that wouldn’t exist if we were along for the ride. A veil falls in front of the viewer’s eyes, almost as if the force itself is saying, “This is not for you; it is only for them.” I think one of the things that makes Kylo and Rey so deeply compelling is exactly this intimacy–we cannot know for certain what transpires between the two of them during the two scenes where they connect mentally in TFA. What they learn, discover, or feel belongs to them, and them alone. It is something that is jealously guarded from the viewer, as if we’re spies and not viewers at all. This hearkens back to why many films made during the years of tyrannical censorship are so deeply sensual and metaphorical–what the viewer doesn’t get to see, the viewer fills in with their imagination.

The concealment storytelling device Rian uses for Kylo and Rey does exactly that for Reylo–it elevates the pairing above the rest because of how much it leaves out, rather than how much it stuffs in. This is what you’d expect from an Arthurian tale or a legend or a myth, rather than a romance story–characters who make strange decisions and don’t justify themselves or explain themselves and who, due to the brevity of their story, make searching beneath the surface and uncovering the full details of their story by connecting the invisible pieces all the more worthwhile. And because Reylo has such a huge legacy to bring to a close (the ring begun by Anakin and Amidala), it’s absolutely necessary that they be a pairing that can rise to legendary heights.

Yet after her descent into the womb-cave, she emerges as virtually a completely different person than she was before the experience. No longer is she hostile and attacking Kylo at every turn, no longer is she projecting onto him, no longer is she afraid of him–despite still having none of her questions answered, she’s all of a suddenly completely fine with shipping herself to him as she is, no changes necessary on his part. This to me implies that she never really was interested in his justifications about what he did; instead, what she was actually struggling with all along was her own “unacceptable” desire for him, something that likely was there all along the moment she met him, just as it was there for him when he met her. If truth and justice were what truly mattered to her, she’d make him account for his misdeeds and not get distracted by him or immediately launch into gabby girlfriend mode once she put herself together. Instead, she becomes determined to pull him out of Snoke’s clutches and bring him back to her.

Rey’s trajectory is highlighted more in the film than Kylo’s. She begins with anger–brashly shooting at him the minute she sees him, not listening to him when he talks, shouting at him, calling him names, accusing him. But it would be foolish to call her anger “hate”–rather than hate, it’s disappointment, and this disappointment has been there since TFA. I’m fairly certain that we can retroactively assume that Rey fell for Kylo at first sight (literally when Princeling took his mask off the first time, hence why they overstyled him for that shot, lol), and that her anger with him truly began in earnest when he disappointed her by refusing Han’s call to the light and killing him instead (and thereby refusing to join Rey and be by her side and become accessible to her). Her visceral and personal anger in the forest scene is less about the loss of Han (though he is certainly a factor) than it is about how deeply upset she is by the actions of this person she’s formed an intense bond with over a matter of a few hours who she’s irresistibly attracted to despite his actions. We see this play out in the animalistic way she hunts him down and marks him–this kind of behavior isn’t normal for regular darksiders, nor is it normal for combatants. It’s clearly an alpha female wolf putting her alpha male wolf in his place, and that seems to be exactly how Kylo takes it and why Rey never apologizes for it, lol. From the moment they first entered each other’s minds, Kylo belonged to Rey in a way she probably doesn’t fully understand even now.

Full meta here: http://getoffthesoapbox.tumblr.com/post/172084558087/swtlj-first-impressions-rey-kylo

I've long thought that Rey's hatred towards Kylo was too personal for it to be simply over Han (a man who she had only known for a few days at most). Disappointment is probably more accurate as she had an uncontrollable, intense attraction towards him that she probably wasn't even aware of.

[Dar-ren19]

episode VII ---

my family will be back one day

episode VIII ---

Ben please don't go this way

episode IX---

you're back...  -   Yes I am

my family will be back one day it's a foreshadowing of Ben Solo!!

@Teo oswald

Yes! "Whomever you're waiting for on Jakku, they're never coming back. But there's someone who still could."

@12 Parsnips

And then Rey murmurs "Luke!"... on with the infamous JJ misdirection/mystery box.

[12 Parsnips]

@Dar-ren19

I have a friend who swears by this video/sound byte of that scene ("It's Ben!"), but TBH I've never been able to hear this in the actual movie.

[Cowgirlsamurai]

@Kylo Rey

Thank you for sharing! This is so great. I love the “what’s yours is mine” assumption Rey makes when borrowing Kylo’s saber and how he uses both of their sabers in killing Snoke. Ahh... the symbolism. I wish more people “got” this stuff (or cared...)

[Dar-ren19]

@Dar-ren19

I have a friend who swears by this video/sound byte of that scene ("It's Ben!"), but TBH I've never been able to hear this in the actual movie.

@12 Parsnips

Yeah, I've seen that too, and I also agree that I can't hear it in the actual movie even with the volume at the highest level.

[ZioRen]

Getoffthesoapbox from tumblr is continuing her amazing TLJ first impressions meta series (I highly, highly recommend you read her fantastic meta on Rey's trajectory in TLJ), with her analysis of Reylo:

@Kylo Rey

Gosh I love her meta. I also love that she's recognizing Rey's aggressiveness, alphaness, and even possessiveness of Kylo at times. Almost everything else I see focuses exclusively on that with Kylo and some meta even suggests every move he makes is about hunting her down sexually like he's alpha and she omega. This was very much NOT the impression I got on screen, particularly when nearly every aggressive and possessive move Kylo makes toward Rey is swiftly punished until he ends up on his butt or knees before her (as this meta says, the alpha wolf putting the other alpha in his place).

Rey actually struck me as quite aggressive in this movie, like an answer to Kylo's pursuit of her in TFA, while Kylo seems notably toned down up until his final push to get her to join him (which was, horrible wording aside, still an ask and not a demand with all the deciding power on Rey's side. And even Kylo's following rage on Crait happens with Rey very much not present and the moment he faces her again, he's placated and puppy-eyed and lip-wibbling). It's worth it to note that Kylo never asks Rey to go to him, never tries to pry about where she is to hunt her down, never actually tries to seduce her into going with him through the Force bond. It's only when they have their visions and she comes to him that he sets about trying to get her over and with him. Before then, it's all Rey. Rey prying, Rey yelling, Rey shooting, Rey deciding, Rey going to him with designs to bring him back with her, danger be damned.

[Kylo Rey]

Getoffthesoapbox from tumblr is continuing her amazing TLJ first impressions meta series (I highly, highly recommend you read her fantastic meta on Rey's trajectory in TLJ), with her analysis of Reylo:

@Kylo Rey

Gosh I love her meta. I also love that she's recognizing Rey's aggressiveness, alphaness, and even possessiveness of Kylo at times. Almost everything else I see focuses exclusively on that with Kylo and some meta even suggests every move he makes is about hunting her down sexually like he's alpha and she omega. This was very much NOT the impression I got on screen, particularly when nearly every aggressive and possessive move Kylo makes toward Rey is swiftly punished until he ends up on his butt or knees before her (as this meta says, the alpha wolf putting the other alpha in his place).

Rey actually struck me as quite aggressive in this movie, like an answer to Kylo's pursuit of her in TFA, while Kylo seems notably toned down up until his final push to get her to join him (which was, horrible wording aside, still an ask and not a demand with all the deciding power on Rey's side. And even Kylo's following rage on Crait happens with Rey very much not present and the moment he faces her again, he's placated and puppy-eyed and lip-wibbling). It's worth it to note that Kylo never asks Rey to go to him, never tries to pry about where she is to hunt her down, never actually tries to seduce her into going with him through the Force bond. It's only when they have their visions and she comes to him that he sets about trying to get her over and with him. Before then, it's all Rey. Rey prying, Rey yelling, Rey shooting, Rey deciding, Rey going to him with designs to bring him back with her, danger be damned.

@ZioRen

She managed to get all this from one viewing of the movie too! I love her meta series because she looks at crucial but underexplored aspects and really digs deep into the characters. Rey is a bit of an enigmatic character who is harder to read than Kylo so it is understandable that people are exploring/analysing him to a greater degree, which is why I really really love her Rey meta that I linked in the post as it digs deep. Completely agreed on Rey being the more dominant/aggressive, at least in TLJ. It's a nice subversion of their dynamic in TFA, and one that I think took the whole Reylo fandom by surprise, even after two years of diligent analysis. (We all expected Kylo to pursue her to Ahch-To, because spoilers). This is why I disagree with a lot of the 'feminist' reading regarding Rey in TLJ. Rian gave her a LOT of agency, unusual for a heroine in a blockbuster movie let alone a SW movie. She initiates everything with Kylo, he doesn't force her to do anything, she attacks a defenceless old man, she is extremely possessive of Kylo, she ships herself to him etc etc. Kylo knows at this point not to mess with the alpha female, not to mention at this point he's ridiculously whipped (he's more angry at her over breaking his heart than he is of her permanently scarring his face, lol).

She points out the voyeuristic aspects of Reylo and I love how she got to the heart of why people find Reylo so sexy/intimate: the concealment storytelling device that JJ and Rian used hearkens back to older films operating under heavy censorship and pre-nineteenth century classical works. Modern romance stories show too much and conceal too little, and yet period dramas and the like are a thousand times more sensual and intimate as they have to be more creative and allow the viewers/readers to fill in the blanks with their imagination. It's what keeps us coming back for more with Reylo. It's a big case of 'less is more.'

She's also written an extremely long post on Kylo's trajectory in TLJ which I haven't gotten round to yet but here's the link: http://getoffthesoapbox.tumblr.com/post/171705144582/swtlj-first-impressions-kylos-trajectory

[rawpowah]

I really enjoyed getoffthesoapbox's metas as well. I'm happy to see the other ones are getting attention here. I barely see anyone discuss or reblog them on tumblr. It's very impressive that she/he has managed to get so much out of this movie in one viewing and imo she hit the nail on the head with the old Hollywood/period drama vibe that Reylo has. The P&P and Jane Eyre parallels could not be any clearer and I also get a serious North and South vibe from the relationship as well (complete with the Resistance as an equivalent to the factory union workers lol). I love that there's an emphasis on showing as opposed to telling, which is one of the main problems I've had with the last couple of seasons of GoT for example, so it's a relief to see a relationship that's portrayed so well through visual elements like Reylo is (and sustained by good writing).

[snufkin]

Those are great essays, especially in getting to the heart of their interest/pull towards each other. These are two people under different circumstances would have immediately connected and been close with one another. I do have the quibble that her motive for going to Luke is prompted by Ben/Kylo, but it runs deeper than just wanting a boy. The boy is, by virtue of his empathy/common childhood trauma/shared special powers, is a big part of the catalyst which forces her out of the life she's been trapped in, and continues to trap herself in, because of what her parents did to her. But it's larger than just "You need a boyfriend," it's about coming to terms with what happened to her, who she is, what she really wants out of life if she can confront/overcome her trauma, her responsibility with these powers, her nature of wanting to do right/help people, and yes also what he means to her. And the anger at him is definitely more how he, somebody who intrigues her and who she identifies with, could do that to his father? They each have that question about the other and the breakup is in realizing how they handle their reaction to the experience of parental rejection is diametrically different.

There's been an ongoing discussion here about referencing period pieces and the Golden Age of Hollywood/Hayes Code for how they managed to convey romance and sexuality and boy did the glove removal make me think that's coded for sex/romance



And hop in the wayback machine to the summer of 2016 for one of the best posts ever here, by @Darth Dementor

It's coded language, like Victorian writers used all the time.  Star Wars is a family movies aimed at children and adults.

Writers like Stevenson, Dickens, Stoker, and Henry James were well versed in subliminal themes because they had to be.  During their time they couldn't out and out talk about sex and sexuality due to the social constraints of their era.  They used ghosts, vampires, werewolves,  potions/serums, mental illness, etc, etc to address them and other areas of man's duality and common reality.

Most importantly coding sex in the background allows for higher and multiple levels; often being more intense and memorable than seeing the act itself.  One of the most famous examples? The kiss scene in From Here to Eternity:



Writers want to put in concepts to keep adults intrested while still allowing kids to be able to watch along with them.  It also gives grown folks an out to pretend they didn't see the subtext and laugh about it at later.

So yes, when Kylo ignited his saber after Rey used the force it was referring to him being aroused.  Absolutely the interrogation scene is a metaphor for them having sex.  A PG-13 movie can't show two people getting it on, so it was the closest way a Star Wars movie could show the audience without getting an R rating.   This way the story could tell us what is really going without the kids asking about the "birds and the bees" after its over.

Speaking of the Hayes Code, despite arguments that it repressed depictions of women and sex, it actually forced filmmakers to be creative and to show instead of telling (also read Anna Biller's Let's Stop Calling Movies Feminist about how Pre-Code and Hayes Era films were paradoxically better for women versus contemporary cinema ). Here's another old post from the months after TFA's release that I remember posting during the discussion (and page starts with a discussion about how Peter Weir is a master of this technique, especially in his films like The Year of Living Dangerously and Witness)

Also in terms of sex not having to be overt, a lot of you have mentioned GwtW as a classic favorite, which was made here in the States under the Hayes Code, which restricted how sex could be depicted in movies. Han and Leia were meant as an homage to the classic Howard Hawks couples in movies like His Girl Friday, made during that era. I just got the latest issue of the New Yorker, which talks about how the restrictions for the sake of "public morality" (during the same crusading era when we also had Prohibition), actually made for more geniune/stronger roles for women and far more sexy interplay between the male/female leads. It's a pretty interesting read, although I'm biased because it singles out my all time favorite on screen couple, Nick and Nora Charles (Myrna Loy 4EVA) from the Thin Man.

Sex and Sexier
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/05/02/what-the-hays-code-did-for-women

Censorship can cripple, inhibit, and destroy, but, in forcing artists to invent, it can liberate, too. Now that it scarcely exists, we can see that we may have lost as much as we’ve won...If sexual frankness disappeared, tawdriness went with it, and the old fables of domination were replaced by a new creation: the couple, two people matched in beauty and talent who enjoy each other’s company more than anything else in the world. There was actually a perfect transitional movie, “The Thin Man,” from the Dashiell Hammett novel, shot very quickly, in early 1934, and released just before the Code went into effect. Nick and Nora Charles (William Powell and Myrna Loy), a wealthy couple, drink their way through the day and solve a complicated murder case when they feel like it. Powell, with his clipped mustache, his deep voice, his invariable suit, tie, and hat, and his perfect indifference to everything but Myrna Loy, was a generation’s ideal of American suavity. Loy, tall and elegant, had music in her voice, a mocking inquisitiveness that became an informal, American-style version of irony. The film’s screenwriters, Albert Hackett and Frances Goodrich, a married couple, elaborated on Hammett’s dialogue, which itself was a worked-up version of the drink-fuelled back-and-forth of the writer and Lillian Hellman, his longtime girlfriend. When Nick and Nora are with other people, they speak to each other in telegraphic gestures and put-ons. Sex has never been more beautifully displaced.

[Kylo Rey]

So I read Getoffthesoapbox's fantastic (and ridiculously long) Kylo meta, which is again, most definitely worth the read:

In FC1, their first force connection moment, we establish a couple interesting things about Kylo. First is that he’s not unhappy or displeased to see Rey–rather, the minute their minds connect, his eyes and face light up. Her presence is welcome to him, almost a gift he hadn’t been expecting. This tells us immediately that he holds no grudge against her for what she did to him in TFA, nor does he feel diminished by her (after all, he still bears her scar, and though he’s healing it up so that it’s not a gaping wound, he’s not removing it entirely and he’s not ashamed to bear her mark at any point in TLJ)–instead, he still holds all the admiration, respect, and adoration he held for her ever since he first saw into her mind in the forest. Even more interesting, her first response is to attack him, and rather than attempt to deflect (as he did in TFA), he flinches, fully believing he’s been shot. So right away we can see this man leaves himself deliberately vulnerable to this young woman, even though he fully knows she has a penchant for “shoot first, talk later.” So for the second time it’s confirmed that he is okay with whatever “justice” this young woman wants to enact upon him–she, and only she, may take him to account for his wrongdoing. This probably will be significant in the future for Episode IX.

In all their scenes there is a deep sexual undercurrent between them, and this is the first scene where it’s palpable not just in the subtext but also in the visual metaphors. He gets to have a bit of the voyeur’s experience while he watches her revel in the rain. The rain’s a powerful symbol of the feminine, as rain heals and brings new life. This is the scene of their mutual sexual awakening, and it culminates in the rain itself appearing on his cheek. This is simultaneously a metaphor for a wet dream in his case and also foreshadowing for his ability to force project into her space the way he will by FC4. In essence, as far as I can tell, this is the mutual “hitting puberty full speed” scene for both of them, which makes sense, given both of them have been “frozen” up until this point. After this scene, the sexual undercurrent between them changes form and becomes more akin to that between teenagers in teen flicks. We’re still not yet at the adult range these two should actually be interacting within (they’re both actually adults), but I’m sure that will happen in the third film, when they’re both ready to take on the responsibilities of adult partnership.

In this scene though, Rey hurts Kylo the most. When she calls him a murderous snake, his face becomes immediately crestfallen and his early cheerful questions fall away. He then asks her if she knows what happened between him and Luke. She then hurts him again, but he’s ready for it this time. What I love about how he handles his hurt though, is that he never attacks her or defends against her; he accepts her spears in his heart and lets her stab him over and over again. Rather than attacking back, he plays up the rising sexual tension between them (another reason I think he’s better socialized than TFA lets on, because this is not something a man as stunted as he is should be able to do with this level of dexterity) to seduce her instead. Rather than reading her mind, he looks deeply into her eyes and croons agreement with her, which immediately throws into doubt how much truth is in her barbs. He then reminds her of their encounter at the end of TFA, which shows how deeply that scene affected him.

Then Rey does something for him which I think is very important, though I’m not sure she knows it–she validates him by asserting he is a monster. Remember, this guy just went through a scene with Snoke where Snoke told him he’s still a child in a mask. Rey acknowledges Kylo’s destructive power as a man, which reaffirms him right after Snoke has torn him down. Obviously this isn’t a healthy affirmation, but the point here is that Rey rebuilds what Snoke has torn apart. Kylo’s pride is beginning to heal because she sees and accepts the existence of the very real and powerful darkness within him here. And he, fully knowing himself and knowing how far gone he is, affirms her assertion. What I think is interesting here is that despite it seeming clear he’s hurt that she sees him as a monster, he doesn’t disagree with her assessment. It’s just that he seems to wish she’d see he’s more than “just” a monster–that rather than being a bogeyman, he’s a man–capable of both the monstrous and the altruistic. I think this is a sign that he wants her–and only her–to see him as “more” than he himself sees himself, which is a sign he’s beginning to realign with the “ideal” again because of her. Yet he can’t refute her assertion, because he’s not a dishonest person and that’s his own assessment of himself. It’ll take something more to pull him out of this.

What I think this sequence establishes is that Rey is the first thing Kylo has ever truly wanted for himself. She is not a legacy imposed upon him, or some other mentor’s wishes or desires being forced on him. All she really has to offer is herself and a connection–and this is something Kylo has been hungry for all his life. Because she is offering him the deepest, truest thing he’s ever wanted, by pursuing and accepting her offer he is at last able to begin the path to actualizing himself. This desire for someone who loves him completely is something that’s reflected in Rey’s own desires for herself, and something that makes them deeply compatible as future romantic partners. They both are looking for someone who will tear the galaxy apart for them, who will come for them no matter the cost, and who will not place other priorities above them. This, they find in each other, and for the briefest instant they both get to taste how good the world would be if they could remain at each other’s sides.

The proposal sequence is the first time Kylo has ever tried to make a decision for himself in his life. Because he’s a n00b at this, what he does is try to merge his old fantasy (surpassing Vader and ruling the galaxy) with his new desire (have a life with Rey). It’s not that his old fantasy is particularly attractive to him, I think; it’s just that Kylo literally has no clue what else he can do because of how much damage he’s done. On top of this, I don’t think he’s confident in Rey’s feelings for him–Rey only recently shifted from calling him a monster. He’s likely a bit insecure about what it is about him that Rey suddenly finds attractive and doesn’t have the confidence to just offer himself to her and let her decide; instead he tries to offer something greater than just himself to her–the greatest thing he can think of, which is power.

Of course, Rey, being further integrated than Kylo, knows something is very wrong about this offer, but she’s not yet able to articulate why it’s wrong or offer an alternative solution for him. Now his reaction to her reluctance here is rather interesting. He becomes agitated with her for the first and only time in the two films. On first viewing I think it’s hard to understand why he’s raising his voice to her here, but when I keep in mind where his mindset is (he’s just sacrificed his entire life for her, and her body language and words are implying that she’s about to reject him), it’s pretty clear that his agitation is fear-based. He’s afraid that their connection means less to her than it does to him, and that he’s about to lose her (which he is). But because he’s kind of stupid, he tries to pressure her rather than backing off and saying “well, what should we do next, my dear?”
Rey herself doesn’t seem to be offended or afraid of his outburst, which reiterates to me that she understands his fear and that he’s not trying to hurt her.

Kylo knows exactly who Luke’s referencing, and he foolishly asserts that he’ll destroy “her” and Luke himself and “all of it.” This is quite an interesting line because it implies he’s fallen into despair and nihilism for the first time in his life. This is genuine nihilism talking. Because when he destroys “all of it,” he’ll have no reason to live. Fortunately trolly Luke doesn’t intend to let him end up that way, and so he makes a sacrifice in order to be part of what will save and restore Kylo in the end, placing the remainder of his faith in Rey to do the rest.

And here is where we leave our fearless Supreme Leader–on his knees, having lost everything. It’s actually a place where you leave heroes normally, in the second film of a trilogy. =P The second film is always the “all hope is lost” moment–yet it is Kylo who carries this narrative beat, not Rey. It is not her pain we focus on; it is his. This says to me that despite his “narrative position” as Rey’s antagonist, he is probably the protagonist of the story–whether he can transform it into a comedy or is unable to overcome his flaws and it remains a tragedy is up for Episode IX to determine.

[Dar-ren19]

So I read Getoffthesoapbox's fantastic (and ridiculously long) Kylo meta, which is again, most definitely worth the read:

In FC1, their first force connection moment, we establish a couple interesting things about Kylo. First is that he’s not unhappy or displeased to see Rey–rather, the minute their minds connect, his eyes and face light up. Her presence is welcome to him, almost a gift he hadn’t been expecting. This tells us immediately that he holds no grudge against her for what she did to him in TFA, nor does he feel diminished by her (after all, he still bears her scar, and though he’s healing it up so that it’s not a gaping wound, he’s not removing it entirely and he’s not ashamed to bear her mark at any point in TLJ)–instead, he still holds all the admiration, respect, and adoration he held for her ever since he first saw into her mind in the forest. Even more interesting, her first response is to attack him, and rather than attempt to deflect (as he did in TFA), he flinches, fully believing he’s been shot. So right away we can see this man leaves himself deliberately vulnerable to this young woman, even though he fully knows she has a penchant for “shoot first, talk later.” So for the second time it’s confirmed that he is okay with whatever “justice” this young woman wants to enact upon him–she, and only she, may take him to account for his wrongdoing. This probably will be significant in the future for Episode IX.

In all their scenes there is a deep sexual undercurrent between them, and this is the first scene where it’s palpable not just in the subtext but also in the visual metaphors. He gets to have a bit of the voyeur’s experience while he watches her revel in the rain. The rain’s a powerful symbol of the feminine, as rain heals and brings new life. This is the scene of their mutual sexual awakening, and it culminates in the rain itself appearing on his cheek. This is simultaneously a metaphor for a wet dream in his case and also foreshadowing for his ability to force project into her space the way he will by FC4. In essence, as far as I can tell, this is the mutual “hitting puberty full speed” scene for both of them, which makes sense, given both of them have been “frozen” up until this point. After this scene, the sexual undercurrent between them changes form and becomes more akin to that between teenagers in teen flicks. We’re still not yet at the adult range these two should actually be interacting within (they’re both actually adults), but I’m sure that will happen in the third film, when they’re both ready to take on the responsibilities of adult partnership.

In this scene though, Rey hurts Kylo the most. When she calls him a murderous snake, his face becomes immediately crestfallen and his early cheerful questions fall away. He then asks her if she knows what happened between him and Luke. She then hurts him again, but he’s ready for it this time. What I love about how he handles his hurt though, is that he never attacks her or defends against her; he accepts her spears in his heart and lets her stab him over and over again. Rather than attacking back, he plays up the rising sexual tension between them (another reason I think he’s better socialized than TFA lets on, because this is not something a man as stunted as he is should be able to do with this level of dexterity) to seduce her instead. Rather than reading her mind, he looks deeply into her eyes and croons agreement with her, which immediately throws into doubt how much truth is in her barbs. He then reminds her of their encounter at the end of TFA, which shows how deeply that scene affected him.

Then Rey does something for him which I think is very important, though I’m not sure she knows it–she validates him by asserting he is a monster. Remember, this guy just went through a scene with Snoke where Snoke told him he’s still a child in a mask. Rey acknowledges Kylo’s destructive power as a man, which reaffirms him right after Snoke has torn him down. Obviously this isn’t a healthy affirmation, but the point here is that Rey rebuilds what Snoke has torn apart. Kylo’s pride is beginning to heal because she sees and accepts the existence of the very real and powerful darkness within him here. And he, fully knowing himself and knowing how far gone he is, affirms her assertion. What I think is interesting here is that despite it seeming clear he’s hurt that she sees him as a monster, he doesn’t disagree with her assessment. It’s just that he seems to wish she’d see he’s more than “just” a monster–that rather than being a bogeyman, he’s a man–capable of both the monstrous and the altruistic. I think this is a sign that he wants her–and only her–to see him as “more” than he himself sees himself, which is a sign he’s beginning to realign with the “ideal” again because of her. Yet he can’t refute her assertion, because he’s not a dishonest person and that’s his own assessment of himself. It’ll take something more to pull him out of this.

What I think this sequence establishes is that Rey is the first thing Kylo has ever truly wanted for himself. She is not a legacy imposed upon him, or some other mentor’s wishes or desires being forced on him. All she really has to offer is herself and a connection–and this is something Kylo has been hungry for all his life. Because she is offering him the deepest, truest thing he’s ever wanted, by pursuing and accepting her offer he is at last able to begin the path to actualizing himself. This desire for someone who loves him completely is something that’s reflected in Rey’s own desires for herself, and something that makes them deeply compatible as future romantic partners. They both are looking for someone who will tear the galaxy apart for them, who will come for them no matter the cost, and who will not place other priorities above them. This, they find in each other, and for the briefest instant they both get to taste how good the world would be if they could remain at each other’s sides.

The proposal sequence is the first time Kylo has ever tried to make a decision for himself in his life. Because he’s a n00b at this, what he does is try to merge his old fantasy (surpassing Vader and ruling the galaxy) with his new desire (have a life with Rey). It’s not that his old fantasy is particularly attractive to him, I think; it’s just that Kylo literally has no clue what else he can do because of how much damage he’s done. On top of this, I don’t think he’s confident in Rey’s feelings for him–Rey only recently shifted from calling him a monster. He’s likely a bit insecure about what it is about him that Rey suddenly finds attractive and doesn’t have the confidence to just offer himself to her and let her decide; instead he tries to offer something greater than just himself to her–the greatest thing he can think of, which is power.

Of course, Rey, being further integrated than Kylo, knows something is very wrong about this offer, but she’s not yet able to articulate why it’s wrong or offer an alternative solution for him. Now his reaction to her reluctance here is rather interesting. He becomes agitated with her for the first and only time in the two films. On first viewing I think it’s hard to understand why he’s raising his voice to her here, but when I keep in mind where his mindset is (he’s just sacrificed his entire life for her, and her body language and words are implying that she’s about to reject him), it’s pretty clear that his agitation is fear-based. He’s afraid that their connection means less to her than it does to him, and that he’s about to lose her (which he is). But because he’s kind of stupid, he tries to pressure her rather than backing off and saying “well, what should we do next, my dear?”
Rey herself doesn’t seem to be offended or afraid of his outburst, which reiterates to me that she understands his fear and that he’s not trying to hurt her.

Kylo knows exactly who Luke’s referencing, and he foolishly asserts that he’ll destroy “her” and Luke himself and “all of it.” This is quite an interesting line because it implies he’s fallen into despair and nihilism for the first time in his life. This is genuine nihilism talking. Because when he destroys “all of it,” he’ll have no reason to live. Fortunately trolly Luke doesn’t intend to let him end up that way, and so he makes a sacrifice in order to be part of what will save and restore Kylo in the end, placing the remainder of his faith in Rey to do the rest.

And here is where we leave our fearless Supreme Leader–on his knees, having lost everything. It’s actually a place where you leave heroes normally, in the second film of a trilogy. =P The second film is always the “all hope is lost” moment–yet it is Kylo who carries this narrative beat, not Rey. It is not her pain we focus on; it is his. This says to me that despite his “narrative position” as Rey’s antagonist, he is probably the protagonist of the story–whether he can transform it into a comedy or is unable to overcome his flaws and it remains a tragedy is up for Episode IX to determine.

@Kylo Rey -- thanks for this post. I just read all of it, and I find the paragraph below pretty interesting as I've thought about this quite often in the past few weeks:

The proposal sequence is the first time Kylo has ever tried to make a decision for himself in his life. Because he’s a n00b at this, what he does is try to merge his old fantasy (surpassing Vader and ruling the galaxy) with his new desire (have a life with Rey). It’s not that his old fantasy is particularly attractive to him, I think; it’s just that Kylo literally has no clue what else he can do because of how much damage he’s done. On top of this, I don’t think he’s confident in Rey’s feelings for him–Rey only recently shifted from calling him a monster. He’s likely a bit insecure about what it is about him that Rey suddenly finds attractive and doesn’t have the confidence to just offer himself to her and let her decide; instead he tries to offer something greater than just himself to her–the greatest thing he can think of, which is power.

Could we talk a little about what happened to Rey for her to go from ""murderous snake" & "you ARE a monster" to the throne room? I still feel that RJ left the crucial cave scene up to the audience to make of it what they will for a reason. We all bring to it what we know and feel. And what Rey may have perceived as a failure (the reasons behind her despondency were so acute that she may have then initiated the force bond, which was in turn so very powerful between them that it drew Ben to her side inside the hut) may have been the catalyst for her change in opinion toward him.

[Starliteprism]

I think you all know where I stood prior to TLJ.  I never lost hope, even in the case of that utterly senseless Vanity Fair article.  Vindication is so freaking wonderful!!!  

@IoJovi

you said damn well I'm so proud to have discovered this fandom!!!
  in times of difficulty I take refuge in this site, it's like a big family, it lifts my spirit and then it's always nice to talk about Reylo

@Teo oswald

It's a bit scary out there. People still shouting Mary Sue. Makes me sigh. *sighs*

[LadyHa]

Getoffthesoapbox from tumblr is continuing her amazing TLJ first impressions meta series (I highly, highly recommend you read her fantastic meta on Rey's trajectory in TLJ), with her analysis of Reylo:

@Kylo Rey

Gosh I love her meta. I also love that she's recognizing Rey's aggressiveness, alphaness, and even possessiveness of Kylo at times. Almost everything else I see focuses exclusively on that with Kylo and some meta even suggests every move he makes is about hunting her down sexually like he's alpha and she omega. This was very much NOT the impression I got on screen, particularly when nearly every aggressive and possessive move Kylo makes toward Rey is swiftly punished until he ends up on his butt or knees before her (as this meta says, the alpha wolf putting the other alpha in his place).....

Thank you for sharing this great essay.  I love this take on Rey, and it articulates some ideas I have been thinking of but haven't been able to fully form.  I agree that there has been a lot discourse around the idea that Kylo is pursuing Rey, and whether or not he "deserves" such a great prize.  This line from the meta flips that idea on its head: "He’s not an easy catch, but that makes him more worthwhile." I realize that this idea sort of "objectifies" Kylo and is not the whole story, but it's interesting to think that part of Rey's hero journey is to actively try to win the heart of the sexiest, most powerful fellow in the galaxy. We are so used to stories where women are the object to be won (perhaps except in romantic comedies, where a woman's aggressive pursuit would be generally part of the film's jokey premise), and maybe it's hard to recognize when there's more going on.  I don't expect creators to analyze every part of their work in public, but I would be very curious to someday hear from Rian and the story group about how they developed Rey's agency/romantic intent towards Kylo in this film in particular.

There's been an ongoing discussion here about referencing period pieces and the Golden Age of Hollywood/Hayes Code for how they managed to convey romance and sexuality and boy did the glove removal make me think that's coded for sex/romance

It's coded language, like Victorian writers used all the time.  Star Wars is a family movies aimed at children and adults...

also read Anna Biller's http://annabillersblog.blogspot.com/2018/02/lets-stop-calling-movies-feminist.html
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/05/02/what-the-hays-code-did-for-women

@snufkin

The Hayes Code quality of TFA was a big part of what roped me in to Reylo in the first place.  It was like understanding the punchline of a joke that no one in else the room was laughing at. And, that Biller article is interesting! I feel like I have tried to explain this idea to many of my film buff friends, but don't have enough knowledge of film canon to back up my arguments.  

In terms of how essential women were to filmmaking in earlier eras, a book that opened my eyes was Complicated Women: Sex and Power in Pre-Code Hollywood that I read way back in the early 2000s when it came out.  If I recall correctly, although it does essentially argue that the Hayes Code was bad for women, it also lays out some great evidence for how women were once central to films as powerful stars in the 1920s, and that it would have be unthinkable to try to make a major blockbuster film without any women during this era.

[snufkin]

@LadyHa Oh that's Mick LaSalle from the San Francisco Chronicle, the biggest regional newspaper from where I'm from. He's very opinionated and having read his reviews over the years, I frequently find myself thinking that he's full of sh*t on various topics.

[LadyHa]

@snufkin Haha! I should revisit the book to see what I think of it now that I have watched more early films since then!

[Birdwoman]

@snufkin,
When ever I read a Mike LaSalle review if he liked a movie....I knew I would hate it. If he hated a movie, I knew I would like it. LOL!

[snufkin]

@LadyHa @Birdwoman I always think of how much he ranted against Pan’s Labrynth because of Ofelia’s fate and he’s brought it up almost every time since when a GdT movie comes out. Like that’s 100% his taste and not an evaluation of how that works in the logic of the fairy tale type of story it is. And it’s funny how often he brings up this grudge any time he reviews a new GdT film.

@birdwoman - every once in awhile I’ll remember reading the Pink section as a kid and get super nostalgic

[Teo oswald]

this is really interesting





what do you think about this?

for me it make sense. she saw him

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