Discussion: Finn/FN-2187/John Boyega

snufkin wrote:I sort of figured that Finn was there for the kids, as president of the Beautiful Friendship Gang. The writers definitely dropped the ball because he was set up to be somebody who breaks out and goes on the run specifically because he wants to save himself. Basically out for himself, except that meeting both Poe and Rey is supposed to help him grow into somebody more mature and selfless.

@snufkin

Out-for-himself!Finn definitely could have worked. Except they dispensed with it pretty much straight away; when he sees Rey attacked at that market on Jakku his first instinct is to help her, because they want him to look like a nice caring guy.

I have to say though, I only really have all these criticisms of the character when I think about the movie. When I'm actually watching the movie, I really enjoy what John Boyega brings to it. Finn and Rey's stuff might be a tad too YA for my tastes (which is why it's great when Han shows up and they have an adult to interact with, even if it leads into the film's least interesting stretch story-wise). But their scenes are still sweet and enjoyable.

ZenBrainJam wrote:The thing that I like about Finn is that he lie poorly. To Poe (it's the right thing to do.... no, ok, I need a pilot) to Rey (I am with the resistance... ok I am not, I am just a man on the run, scared to death) to the whole resistance (I know how to deactivate shields on starkiller... no, I was a sanitizing dude, I want Rey back).
He lies, lies, lies, in a poor way. And it's something that I find moving, interesting and understandable. He is in war, and he doesn't like it, he wants to run away and I can understand it. In the end he changes. Now we will see what the writers will do with and of him in next movies. I have hope.

@ZenBrainJam
And he was nearly called out on this by both Maz and Han. This is not being swept under the rug if you ask me. It is going to be fully acknowledged in Episodes VIII/IX, and if it isn't, I'll be done hoping for better characterization. Finn is a liar. That's his biggest "flaw". Characters have flaws. It's normal for them to have flaws, and all of this could lead to compelling development. I'm just not going to throw him out to dry when there are two more movies. He was funny enough in this one, pretty harmless. There are many ways they could improve his story arc. But yeah, they have to use some character to draw attention to the fact that he can't help but lie in order to get himself out of certain situations.

^^^^
Exactly: there is potential, they had made mistakes with his characterization, but there is hope. And again, we neen Finn to understrand other characters in comparision. The fixing MF scene in TFA is so telling about Finn relationship with Rey, it's all there. And then if you think about Rey scenes with Kylo Ren you can see immediatly that there is more of everything, they are on the same page as enemies more than Rey and Finn as allies and friends!

I think that the main motivation for all of Finn actions throughout the movie (until the moment he takes the saber and stand up to Kylo) is fear.
And all of his flaws are releated to that.
I agree that it looks a bit unlogic (refering to RL logic), that the soldier brainwashed literally from birth should show lesser social skills, but as I said it is fiction, and most importantly SW fiction with all of its traditional rules - which do not necessarily compile with RL moral and rules.
I must admit that I like characterisation like this - no one is perfect, everybody is human (even the droids).

I am very curious at how they gonna developp Finn from now on. And I am pretty much optimistic about that.

Just a note: I do not think at all that Finn, even his more mature future personallity gonna be match for Rey.
The third part of TFA was really clear about that - Rey is a player in a totally different game.

Darth_Awakened wrote:

Reynak wrote:@Darth_Awakened", I'm afraid the character doesn't work for me at all and after watching the movie several times I like him even less, not the guy, the character doesn't make sense to me. They try to sell him as a sympathetic heroic character but he lies to Han and the Resistance pilots to save Rey. That's real nasty.

Telling Poe helping him is the right thing to do was a ridiculous answer and a damn lie. Ironically, Poe was the one who killed his ST friend in the village and he says he must help him because he has to do the right thing? It made me roll my eyes. No other character in the OT said such absurd things. I agree with Panky, the only thing that saves a really lame character is John's charm. I think he is very nice and an interesting actor but even then I wouldn't care one bit if I never saw him again. This didn't happen with any characters in the OT. I wanted to see all the characters again, including the robots and the ships. But they haven't managed to make me care about what may happen to Finn. I'd rather see Phasma again rather than him.

@Reynak

btw..Luke Skywalker lies to Han (poor Han it seems that every kid in the galaxy likes to lie to the biggest liar of them all - but still one of the most favorite characters) just to save Leia . (She is rich...in ANH).There are many liars in SW...but we still love them.

On the other hand from Finn s perspective saving Rey is more important to him than Resistance at this point - I do not see it is nasty at all.

Again.."the right thing to do was just selling a story" - he did not know how Poe was going to react.
As someone said, it is just a first movie - we ll see where they gonna go with character.

I agree on Boyega performance totally - someone else could make a total mess of it.

And please, do not think I am attacking you or something worse, it just a discussion, we see the character differently and really not big deal with that
It seems that people are more sensitive lately.

@Darth_Awakened

No, no worries, you certainly like him and I don't but that isn't a problem at all. For me the problem is not that he lies but that he isn't convincing as a character. He doesn't feel 'authentic' to me. I don't mind that he is a liar, what I don't like is that they seem to be selling him as a moraly right person who makes the right choices, a good person, and what he does is not consistent with this idea. A man who does the right thing doesn't send the Resistance on a suicide mission to save a girl he has just met (not even a girl he loves) under false pretenses. He helped Poe to escape and then sent him to SKB on a suicide mission because Rey was so important? Why, because she is pretty? Without Poe he wouldn't have been able to escape and was so happy to see him alive it was ridiculous and then he made him go on a suicide mission to save a girl?

That was morally wrong. If a guy lied to the Resistance during a real war and was found out they wouldn't take it like Han did, I'm sure.

Poe killed his ST friend and it was the right thing to help him escape? There was no neeed to tell Poe it was the right thing to do. Saying they could help each other would have been enough and better. His answer was absurd and should have made Poe mistrust him.

I can't compare him to any characters in the OT, they never made me roll my eyes thinking what they said or did seemed bad writing, with Finn I thought that several times.

Reynak wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:

Reynak wrote:@Darth_Awakened", I'm afraid the character doesn't work for me at all and after watching the movie several times I like him even less, not the guy, the character doesn't make sense to me. They try to sell him as a sympathetic heroic character but he lies to Han and the Resistance pilots to save Rey. That's real nasty.

Telling Poe helping him is the right thing to do was a ridiculous answer and a damn lie. Ironically, Poe was the one who killed his ST friend in the village and he says he must help him because he has to do the right thing? It made me roll my eyes. No other character in the OT said such absurd things. I agree with Panky, the only thing that saves a really lame character is John's charm. I think he is very nice and an interesting actor but even then I wouldn't care one bit if I never saw him again. This didn't happen with any characters in the OT. I wanted to see all the characters again, including the robots and the ships. But they haven't managed to make me care about what may happen to Finn. I'd rather see Phasma again rather than him.

@Reynak

btw..Luke Skywalker lies to Han (poor Han it seems that every kid in the galaxy likes to lie to the biggest liar of them all - but still one of the most favorite characters) just to save Leia . (She is rich...in ANH).There are many liars in SW...but we still love them.

On the other hand from Finn s perspective saving Rey is more important to him than Resistance at this point - I do not see it is nasty at all.

Again.."the right thing to do was just selling a story" - he did not know how Poe was going to react.
As someone said, it is just a first movie - we ll see where they gonna go with character.

I agree on Boyega performance totally - someone else could make a total mess of it.

And please, do not think I am attacking you or something worse, it just a discussion, we see the character differently and really not big deal with that
It seems that people are more sensitive lately.

@Darth_Awakened

No, no worries, you certainly like him and I don't but that isn't a problem at all. For me the problem is not that he lies but that he isn't convincing as a character. He doesn't feel 'authentic' to me. I don't mind that he is a liar, what I don't like is that they seem to be selling him as a moraly right person who makes the right choices, a good person, and what he does is not consistent with this idea. A man who does the right thing doesn't send the Resistance in suicide mission to save a girl he has just met (not even a girl he loves) under false pretenses. He helped Poe to escape and then sent him to SKB in a suicide mission because Rey was so important? Why, because she is pretty? Without Poe he wouldn't have been able to escape and was so happy to see him alive it was ridiculous and then he made him go on a suicide mission to save a girl?

That was morally wrong. If a guy lied to the Resistance during a real war and was found out they wouldn't take it like Han did, I'm sure.

Poe killed his ST friend and it is the right thing to help him escape? There was no neeed to tell Poe it was the right thing to do. Saying they could help each other would have been enough and better. His answer was absurd and should have made Poe mistrust him.

I can't compare him to any other characters in the OT, they never made me roll my eyes thinking what they said or did seemed bad writing, with Finn I thought that several times.

@Reynak

Hmmm I think I got what you are trying to say...but I still do not get who are "they"? (in they try to sell him as morally right person)
Frankly I did not notice any "selling" of the characters by the LF or Disney, it is up to audience to decide who is morally wrong or right at least in my opinion.
It is totally another thing that some die hard Finn s fans - are perceiving him as super-moral. But it does not mean at all that the film itself did that.

Darth_Awakened wrote:

Reynak wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:

Reynak wrote:@Darth_Awakened", I'm afraid the character doesn't work for me at all and after watching the movie several times I like him even less, not the guy, the character doesn't make sense to me. They try to sell him as a sympathetic heroic character but he lies to Han and the Resistance pilots to save Rey. That's real nasty.

Telling Poe helping him is the right thing to do was a ridiculous answer and a damn lie. Ironically, Poe was the one who killed his ST friend in the village and he says he must help him because he has to do the right thing? It made me roll my eyes. No other character in the OT said such absurd things. I agree with Panky, the only thing that saves a really lame character is John's charm. I think he is very nice and an interesting actor but even then I wouldn't care one bit if I never saw him again. This didn't happen with any characters in the OT. I wanted to see all the characters again, including the robots and the ships. But they haven't managed to make me care about what may happen to Finn. I'd rather see Phasma again rather than him.

@Reynak

btw..Luke Skywalker lies to Han (poor Han it seems that every kid in the galaxy likes to lie to the biggest liar of them all - but still one of the most favorite characters) just to save Leia . (She is rich...in ANH).There are many liars in SW...but we still love them.

On the other hand from Finn s perspective saving Rey is more important to him than Resistance at this point - I do not see it is nasty at all.

Again.."the right thing to do was just selling a story" - he did not know how Poe was going to react.
As someone said, it is just a first movie - we ll see where they gonna go with character.

I agree on Boyega performance totally - someone else could make a total mess of it.

And please, do not think I am attacking you or something worse, it just a discussion, we see the character differently and really not big deal with that
It seems that people are more sensitive lately.

@Darth_Awakened

No, no worries, you certainly like him and I don't but that isn't a problem at all. For me the problem is not that he lies but that he isn't convincing as a character. He doesn't feel 'authentic' to me. I don't mind that he is a liar, what I don't like is that they seem to be selling him as a moraly right person who makes the right choices, a good person, and what he does is not consistent with this idea. A man who does the right thing doesn't send the Resistance in suicide mission to save a girl he has just met (not even a girl he loves) under false pretenses. He helped Poe to escape and then sent him to SKB in a suicide mission because Rey was so important? Why, because she is pretty? Without Poe he wouldn't have been able to escape and was so happy to see him alive it was ridiculous and then he made him go on a suicide mission to save a girl?

That was morally wrong. If a guy lied to the Resistance during a real war and was found out they wouldn't take it like Han did, I'm sure.

Poe killed his ST friend and it is the right thing to help him escape? There was no neeed to tell Poe it was the right thing to do. Saying they could help each other would have been enough and better. His answer was absurd and should have made Poe mistrust him.

I can't compare him to any other characters in the OT, they never made me roll my eyes thinking what they said or did seemed bad writing, with Finn I thought that several times.

@Reynak

Hmmm I think I got what you are trying to say...but I still do not get who are "they"? (in they try to sell him as morally right person)
Frankly I did not notice any "selling" of the characters by the LF or Disney, it is up to audience to decide who is morally wrong or right at least in my opinion.
It is totally another thing that some die hard Finn s fans - are perceiving him as super-moral. But it does not mean at all that the film itself did that.

@Darth_Awakened

My impression is that he was intoduced as "a good guy" in a very superficial way. But if he is not that, what is he? Everything becomes even worse because he is nothing, just a plot device offering a counterpoint for other characters and to help move the plot forward. He has no conflict and no shadows, they haven't been adressed in any way. The best thing I can see in him is a funny generic sidekick for Rey, a "good guy", but they (the film makers) failed at that because he did terrible things (killing the ST fellows he grew up with) without ever feeling bad about it. He felt the need to help Rey but never tried to rescue any of his old comrades? Why didn't he try to rescue any of them like he tried to rescue Rey? How does this make sense?

The more I think about it, the less he makes sense to me. If he is flawed that's fine, he's human, if he is selfish and lies, that's fine, he doen't have to be perfect. The problem is that he is portrayed as if he belongs in the "select" group of the good guys, accepted as part of them whithout anyone doubting his alliegances but his behaviour is suspicious, to say the least. I don't think this character, who has excellent potential and is played by a promising actor, was treated right by the film makers.

Reynak wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:

Reynak wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:

Reynak wrote:@Darth_Awakened", I'm afraid the character doesn't work for me at all and after watching the movie several times I like him even less, not the guy, the character doesn't make sense to me. They try to sell him as a sympathetic heroic character but he lies to Han and the Resistance pilots to save Rey. That's real nasty.

Telling Poe helping him is the right thing to do was a ridiculous answer and a damn lie. Ironically, Poe was the one who killed his ST friend in the village and he says he must help him because he has to do the right thing? It made me roll my eyes. No other character in the OT said such absurd things. I agree with Panky, the only thing that saves a really lame character is John's charm. I think he is very nice and an interesting actor but even then I wouldn't care one bit if I never saw him again. This didn't happen with any characters in the OT. I wanted to see all the characters again, including the robots and the ships. But they haven't managed to make me care about what may happen to Finn. I'd rather see Phasma again rather than him.

@Reynak

btw..Luke Skywalker lies to Han (poor Han it seems that every kid in the galaxy likes to lie to the biggest liar of them all - but still one of the most favorite characters) just to save Leia . (She is rich...in ANH).There are many liars in SW...but we still love them.

On the other hand from Finn s perspective saving Rey is more important to him than Resistance at this point - I do not see it is nasty at all.

Again.."the right thing to do was just selling a story" - he did not know how Poe was going to react.
As someone said, it is just a first movie - we ll see where they gonna go with character.

I agree on Boyega performance totally - someone else could make a total mess of it.

And please, do not think I am attacking you or something worse, it just a discussion, we see the character differently and really not big deal with that
It seems that people are more sensitive lately.

@Darth_Awakened

No, no worries, you certainly like him and I don't but that isn't a problem at all. For me the problem is not that he lies but that he isn't convincing as a character. He doesn't feel 'authentic' to me. I don't mind that he is a liar, what I don't like is that they seem to be selling him as a moraly right person who makes the right choices, a good person, and what he does is not consistent with this idea. A man who does the right thing doesn't send the Resistance in suicide mission to save a girl he has just met (not even a girl he loves) under false pretenses. He helped Poe to escape and then sent him to SKB in a suicide mission because Rey was so important? Why, because she is pretty? Without Poe he wouldn't have been able to escape and was so happy to see him alive it was ridiculous and then he made him go on a suicide mission to save a girl?

That was morally wrong. If a guy lied to the Resistance during a real war and was found out they wouldn't take it like Han did, I'm sure.

Poe killed his ST friend and it is the right thing to help him escape? There was no neeed to tell Poe it was the right thing to do. Saying they could help each other would have been enough and better. His answer was absurd and should have made Poe mistrust him.

I can't compare him to any other characters in the OT, they never made me roll my eyes thinking what they said or did seemed bad writing, with Finn I thought that several times.

@Reynak

Hmmm I think I got what you are trying to say...but I still do not get who are "they"? (in they try to sell him as morally right person)
Frankly I did not notice any "selling" of the characters by the LF or Disney, it is up to audience to decide who is morally wrong or right at least in my opinion.
It is totally another thing that some die hard Finn s fans - are perceiving him as super-moral. But it does not mean at all that the film itself did that.

@Darth_Awakened

My impression is that he was intoduced as "a good guy" in a very superficial way. But if he is not that, what is he? Everything becomes even worse because he is nothing, just a plot device offering a counterpoint for other characters and to help move the plot forward. He has no conflict and no shadows, they haven't been adressed in any way. The best thing I can see in him is a funny generic sidekick for Rey, a "good guy", but they (the film makers) failed at that because he did terrible things (killing the ST fellows he grew up with) without ever feeling bad about it. He felt the need to help Rey but never tried to rescue any of his old comrades? Why didn't he try to rescue any of them like he tried to rescue Rey? How does this make sense?

The more I think about it, the less he makes sense to me. If he is flawed that's fine, he's human, if he is selfish and lies, that's fine, he doen't have to be perfect. The problem is that he is portrayed as if he belongs in the "select" group of the good guys, accepted as part of them whithout anyone doubting his alliegances but his behaviour is suspicious, to say the least. I don't think this character, who has excellent potential and is played by a promising actor, was treated right by the film makers.

@Reynak

You are right about no conflict and no shadow thing, I can see it - but let say it does not bother me at all.

Sorry for being OT, but it seems like JB is going to Cannes?

EchoBase wrote:Sorry for being OT, but it seems like JB is going to Cannes?

@EchoBase

It's for this, I think:

http://wwd.com/fashion-news/fashion-scoops/2016-cannes-film-festival-john-boyega-bel-powley-star-wars-win-chopard-trophy-10428365/

Couldn't someone ask Pablo regarding Finn's characterization? I would do it myself but I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to put it well enough since English isn't my first language. If someone asked we might get that type of Pablo's answer where he lets us know if something is still to be explained by the story.

I too was kind of let down by Finn's character. But even though I believe it was just a matter of (a bit) lazy writing, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Also, I'm sorry if my post is kinda redundant as I see you are well into the discussion.

John Boyega interview from Cannes 2016 (regarding romance between Finn and Rey):

Interviewer: I loved the developing romance between your character, Finn and Rey in “The Force Awakens.” How is that romance evolving in the next chapter?

Boyega: I mean, we didn’t establish a romance in seven; we never played it that way. Daisy and I, we’re friends.

Interviewer: So there’s no romance?

Boyega: Yes, Finn and Rey – they’re just friends. Finn is a storm trooper, so he doesn’t really know what’s going on. So the romance thing is something that’s going to be interesting in the next installment. It’s not going to go the way you think it’s going to go.

Reading this again (and quoting myself because w/e) I see that he's probably acknowledging Finn and whomever KMT is playing. Finn is going to have a "romance thing" in Episode VIII, but it's not going to be with Rey (because they're just friends), and it's not going to go the way we might think. I'm really looking forward to seeing what character this girl is playing!

I'm reading "it's not going to go the way you think it;s going to go" as "it isn't going to be between Rey and Finn". because Variety guy thought it was going to be two of them. JB acknowledges that they will be romance but not that one (read FinnTran is happening).

vaderito wrote:I'm reading "it's not going to go the way you think it;s going to go" as "it isn't going to be between Rey and Finn". because Variety guy thought it was going to be two of them. JB acknowledges that they will be romance but not that one (read FinnTran is happening).

@vaderito
Yeah, that does make more sense. I believe this is the first acknowledgement that we're getting romance at all in this trilogy since 2013 (when the story was still in its early stages and the script was still being written by Arndt). Finn wasn't in the story yet, and Tran most definitely wasn't yet, but I fully expect Finn and Tran to be the major romance of Episode VIII.

vaderito wrote:I'm reading "it's not going to go the way you think it;s going to go" as "it isn't going to be between Rey and Finn". because Variety guy thought it was going to be two of them. JB acknowledges that they will be romance but not that one (read FinnTran is happening).

@vaderito

Yes, Finntran could be part of thar equation, but that statement to me has Reylo written all over it.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

vaderito wrote:I'm reading "it's not going to go the way you think it;s going to go" as "it isn't going to be between Rey and Finn". because Variety guy thought it was going to be two of them. JB acknowledges that they will be romance but not that one (read FinnTran is happening).

@vaderito
Yeah, that does make more sense. I believe this is the first acknowledgement that we're getting romance at all in this trilogy since 2013 (when the story was still in its early stages and the script was still being written by Arndt). Finn wasn't in the story yet, and Tran most definitely wasn't yet, but I fully expect Finn and Tran to be the major romance of Episode VIII.

@FrolickingFizzgig

I think that pre-TFA release cast comments that romance was very subtle was Reylo. So JB may hint at both FinnTran and Reylo but definitely meant Finnrey is FinnNey. And considering full-on KMT gushing on the same day, Finntran is a go and I can't wait to see them. Space Horse was very promising already.

Judging from the videos of Kelly Marie Tran on youtube, she and John are going to set the screen on fire. I predict explosive chemistry for those two, they seem like they'll really complement each very well.

IoJovi wrote:

vaderito wrote:I'm reading "it's not going to go the way you think it;s going to go" as "it isn't going to be between Rey and Finn". because Variety guy thought it was going to be two of them. JB acknowledges that they will be romance but not that one (read FinnTran is happening).

@vaderito

Yes, Finntran could be part of thar equation, but that statement to me has Reylo written all over it.

@IoJovi
The part about romance is tied directly to Boyega describing Finn as a storm trooper, so I would say it's 100% about Finn and Tran.

Mana wrote:Judging from the videos of Kelly Marie Tran on youtube, she and John are going to set the screen on fire. I predict explosive chemistry for those two, they seem like they'll really complement each very well.

@Mana





This is a huge romantic trope, first one given to Finn and a female character and I'd say it's a go. You don't put a man and a woman in this position - his arms around her, his head leaning on her shoulder, his torso pressing on her back - while controlling a primal animal if you don't want them to feel sexual attraction. This image is the staple for all Sandals Honneymoon Hotels, used on dating shows from Bachelor to Naked Dating. It's a go.

vaderito wrote:

Mana wrote:Judging from the videos of Kelly Marie Tran on youtube, she and John are going to set the screen on fire. I predict explosive chemistry for those two, they seem like they'll really complement each very well.

@Mana





This is a huge romantic trope, first one given to Finn and a female character and I'd say it's a go. You don't put a man and a woman in this position - his arms around her, his head leaning on her shoulder, his torso pressing on her back - while controlling a primal animal if you don't want them to feel sexual attraction. This image is the staple for all Sandals Honneymoon Hotels, used on dating shows from Bachelor to Naked Dating. It's a go.

@vaderito

I'm sorry, wait...did I just read 'Naked dating'?...what the heck is that?!?!?

@Mana Dating Naked is a dating show with naked people. They blur out private parts and boobs but leave butts (means Kylo's naked butt would be family friendly!). Same like Batchelor only naked people. There's also a spin-off  Dating Naked: Playing for Keeps.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dating_Naked

It got invested in Dating Naked: Playing for Keeps for some reason. This show:

http://www.vh1.com/shows/dating-naked

vaderito wrote:@Mana Dating Naked is a dating show with naked people. They blur out private parts and boobs but leave butts (means Kylo's naked butt would be family friendly!). Same like Batchelor only naked people. There's also a spin-off  Dating Naked: Playing for Keeps.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dating_Naked

It got invested in Dating Naked: Playing for Keeps for some reason. This show:

http://www.vh1.com/shows/dating-naked

@vaderito

good god....I guess people will never run out of ideas for reality shows....

So I guess we can say RIP FinnRey for good.

Irina de France wrote:So I guess we can say RIP FinnRey for good.

@Irina de France

It was RIP in December when this happened:

Another thing I found interesting about the interview is that John says Disney won't be happy with him answering the question about whether Finn will get darker, but there's no trouble with saying Finn and Rey aren't meant to be perceived as a romance. It really cements that there was supposed to be nothing but genuine friendship between the pair, and he doesn't sound like he's accidentally let something slip.