Discussion: Finn/FN-2187/John Boyega

Everyman Stormtrooper might have worked, if they'd simply presented him as a Stormtrooper who sucks at being a Stormtrooper. That's the way John played him, and it seemed the natural way to play him, with the script.

But Finn's TFA characterisation is a mess because he's presented as half "soldier who makes the brave and honourable choice not to kill" and half "sympathetic everyman who finds himself in a crappy situation, isn't brave at all and just wants to escape". One decides he doesn't want to kill, and the other decides he doesn't want to die. They can't have it both ways. He can't be a pacifist who'd rather risk death than kill his fellow beings, and then, without compunction, kill others like himself a bit later. And he can't, at the same time, be the person who really just needs a pilot and wants to get the hell out of this galaxy.

Most of the film presents him as someone who wants to get away. Someone who wants to survive. But there are confusing signals like Finn's line about how he decided he "wasn't going to kill for them". And yet, the way the beginning of TFA played out, Finn was very much a man who didn't want to die like his friend. He came across as a survivor type, not as someone who had strong principles. But nonetheless Finn gets sympathy points for having strong principles and not wanting to kill - which doesn't actually materialise in the film.

It's also strange that Finn is supposed to be a kidnapped, indoctrinated child soldier, but hasn't seen any action until 23. So he gets the sympathy points of a child soldier - I've seen many people talk about Finn's past as a child soldier - but not the actual life-wrecking experiences of a child soldier.

Darth Dingbat wrote:Everyman Stormtrooper might have worked, if they'd simply presented him as a Stormtrooper who sucks at being a Stormtrooper. That's the way John played him, and it seemed the natural way to play him, with the script.

But Finn's TFA characterisation is a mess because he's presented as half "soldier who makes the brave and honourable choice not to kill" and half "sympathetic everyman who finds himself in a crappy situation, isn't brave at all and just wants to escape". One decides he doesn't want to kill, and the other decides he doesn't want to die. They can't have it both ways. He can't be a pacifist who'd rather risk death than kill his fellow beings, and then, without compunction, kill others like himself a bit later. And he can't, at the same time, be the person who really just needs a pilot and wants to get the hell out of this galaxy.

Most of the film presents him as someone who wants to get away. Someone who wants to survive. But there are confusing signals like Finn's line about how he decided he "wasn't going to kill for them". And yet, the way the beginning of TFA played out, Finn was very much a man who didn't want to die like his friend. He came across as a survivor type, not as someone who had strong principles. But nonetheless Finn gets sympathy points for having strong principles and not wanting to kill - which doesn't actually materialise in the film.

It's also strange that Finn is supposed to be a kidnapped, indoctrinated child soldier, but hasn't seen any action until 23. So he gets the sympathy points of a child soldier - I've seen many people talk about Finn's past as a child soldier - but not the actual life-wrecking experiences of a child soldier.

@Darth Dingbat

His characterization gets even more jumbled when you take into a consideration his portrayal in the Before the Awakening book. In it, it explains that Finn is in like, the 99% percentile of all stormtroopers and Phasma thinks he has a real future as a ST, but his weakness is his empathy toward his fellow troopers, like Slips. What happened to his competence and empathy toward his fellow STs in TFA?

Darth Dingbat wrote:Everyman Stormtrooper might have worked, if they'd simply presented him as a Stormtrooper who sucks at being a Stormtrooper. That's the way John played him, and it seemed the natural way to play him, with the script.

But Finn's TFA characterisation is a mess because he's presented as half "soldier who makes the brave and honourable choice not to kill" and half "sympathetic everyman who finds himself in a crappy situation, isn't brave at all and just wants to escape". One decides he doesn't want to kill, and the other decides he doesn't want to die. They can't have it both ways. He can't be a pacifist who'd rather risk death than kill his fellow beings, and then, without compunction, kill others like himself a bit later. And he can't, at the same time, be the person who really just needs a pilot and wants to get the hell out of this galaxy.

Most of the film presents him as someone who wants to get away. Someone who wants to survive. But there are confusing signals like Finn's line about how he decided he "wasn't going to kill for them". And yet, the way the beginning of TFA played out, Finn was very much a man who didn't want to die like his friend. He came across as a survivor type, not as someone who had strong principles. But nonetheless Finn gets sympathy points for having strong principles and not wanting to kill - which doesn't actually materialise in the film.

It's also strange that Finn is supposed to be a kidnapped, indoctrinated child soldier, but hasn't seen any action until 23. So he gets the sympathy points of a child soldier - I've seen many people talk about Finn's past as a child soldier - but not the actual life-wrecking experiences of a child soldier.

@Darth Dingbat
I definitely agree. His characterization is a total mess. I don't buy into the character (thus why I'm not heavily invested in the character), but I'm not okay with bashing and all that. If it has to be done it shouldn't be done here, if you know what I mean. Presenting analytical arguments and evidence that explain why you think Finn was handled poorly is one thing, but outright saying you want the character to die or be alienated by every other character is another story. Feels to much like a certain redemption thread... that's what I don't like.

Kessel89 wrote:

Darth Dingbat wrote:Everyman Stormtrooper might have worked, if they'd simply presented him as a Stormtrooper who sucks at being a Stormtrooper. That's the way John played him, and it seemed the natural way to play him, with the script.

But Finn's TFA characterisation is a mess because he's presented as half "soldier who makes the brave and honourable choice not to kill" and half "sympathetic everyman who finds himself in a crappy situation, isn't brave at all and just wants to escape". One decides he doesn't want to kill, and the other decides he doesn't want to die. They can't have it both ways. He can't be a pacifist who'd rather risk death than kill his fellow beings, and then, without compunction, kill others like himself a bit later. And he can't, at the same time, be the person who really just needs a pilot and wants to get the hell out of this galaxy.

Most of the film presents him as someone who wants to get away. Someone who wants to survive. But there are confusing signals like Finn's line about how he decided he "wasn't going to kill for them". And yet, the way the beginning of TFA played out, Finn was very much a man who didn't want to die like his friend. He came across as a survivor type, not as someone who had strong principles. But nonetheless Finn gets sympathy points for having strong principles and not wanting to kill - which doesn't actually materialise in the film.

It's also strange that Finn is supposed to be a kidnapped, indoctrinated child soldier, but hasn't seen any action until 23. So he gets the sympathy points of a child soldier - I've seen many people talk about Finn's past as a child soldier - but not the actual life-wrecking experiences of a child soldier.

@Darth Dingbat

His characterization gets even more jumbled when you take into a consideration his portrayal in the Before the Awakening book. In it, it explains that Finn is in like, the 99% percentile of all stormtroopers and Phasma thinks he has a real future as a ST, but his weakness is his empathy toward his fellow troopers, like Slips. What happened to his competence and empathy toward his fellow STs in TFA?

@Kessel89
Indeed, it's a cringe-worthy narrative mess. I've actually seen quite a few of Finn's fans acknowledge this as well, so it's not just an opinion held here. Finn's reaction toward Stormtroopers is probably the biggest flaw in The Force Awakens. But then again, I think it's obvious what character they were spending time on...

yeah..I love Finn and want the best for him..I only hope the writers do justice to his character in the next movies...

Mana wrote:yeah..I love Finn and want the best for him..I only hope the writers do justice to his character in the next movies...

@Mana
And if he does just counter Rey's darker, more intense, dramatic plot with his own more light-hearted one, so be it.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

Mana wrote:yeah..I love Finn and want the best for him..I only hope the writers do justice to his character in the next movies...

@Mana
And if he does just counter Rey's darker, more intense, dramatic plot with his own more light-hearted one, so be it.

@FrolickingFizzgig

Yes...I think Finn is fine the way he is without the conflict and everything, except this brainwashed ex-Stormtrooper mess is just complicating things. They could have made him an ex-bounty hunter or a space pirate, that would have been way better..his lighthearted nature would have been more believable..

Mana wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

Mana wrote:yeah..I love Finn and want the best for him..I only hope the writers do justice to his character in the next movies...

@Mana
And if he does just counter Rey's darker, more intense, dramatic plot with his own more light-hearted one, so be it.

@FrolickingFizzgig

Yes...I think Finn is fine the way he is without the conflict and everything, except this brainwashed ex-Stormtrooper mess is just complicating things. They could have made him an ex-bounty hunter or a space pirate, that would have been way better..his lighthearted nature would have been more believable..

@Mana

I agree, his personality isn't the problem, the story needs characters like him.  It's the backstory they gave him that's the problem. If he had a more 'fitting' background, it would have been fine.

Finn doesn't really fit in the more intense Force storyline due to his humor and lightness, but I think his personality and storyline of joining the resistance sounds fun if his motivations make sense. That's why they should have made him a recent FO recruit or a guy who had a run in with the FO (they attacked his ship or something?..) rather than a former child soldier of the FO. That way, he would have a reason to resent them personally and fight them, but he could be his funny and charming self without having that called into question.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

Mana wrote:yeah..I love Finn and want the best for him..I only hope the writers do justice to his character in the next movies...

@Mana
And if he does just counter Rey's darker, more intense, dramatic plot with his own more light-hearted one, so be it.

@FrolickingFizzgig

Star Wars is not just heavy drama, if Finn is there to be the light hearted side of the movies is ok. About the characterization, I don't know what went wrong, but I will stay with the wise Hidalgo advice: if something sound strange between books and movies, stick to the movies. So for me Finn is a total weak stormtrooper, with the potential to be a hero for the good reason.
I hope that they will do their best with his character, because writed as less important or not, now he is part of the story and deserves his arc.

And I don't like the bashing too. Finn is not the "phantom menace" to reylo, nor is a distraction to the Rey/Kylo part of the story. Star Wars is always about a lot of characters, and sorry but if you think at lame Lando, Finn is a demi-God in comparision, c'mon!

EDIT: I don't understand what's the problem with comedy. I don't know, do you like so much Revenge of the sith?

@vaderito I still think there will be more Stormtroopers joining the Resistance, maybe not every single one, but some will. When he was telling Rey who he really was, he (and other Stormtroopers) reminded me of Janissaries (Ottoman empire took away thousand of young boys from their families and trained them/brainwashed them to fight for them). I think Stormtroopers will realize they're only using them. And Kylo even suggested clone army would be more useful. And the way they talked about how Finn is the first one to disobey makes me think that he will not be the last one to do so. I don't think Finn will be in the movie just to make us laugh..they will develop his character for sure..if he stays just a funny guy until the end of trilogy it will get boring, he needs to change at least a little bit

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:Stormtrooper rebellion has to happen from a narrative stand-point. Finn's sloppy characterization in the first movie isn't going to get in the way of that IMO.

@FrolickingFizzgig

May I ask why you think that the rebellion has to happen? I'm simply curious because I can't really see it myself.

ZenBrainJam wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

Mana wrote:yeah..I love Finn and want the best for him..I only hope the writers do justice to his character in the next movies...

@Mana
And if he does just counter Rey's darker, more intense, dramatic plot with his own more light-hearted one, so be it.

@FrolickingFizzgig

Star Wars is not just heavy drama, if Finn is there to be the light hearted side of the movies is ok. About the characterization, I don't know what went wrong, but I will stay with the wise Hidalgo advice: if something sound strange between books and movies, stick to the movies. So for me Finn is a total weak stormtrooper, with the potential to be a hero for the good reason.
I hope that they will do their best with his character, because writed as less important or not, now he is part of the story and deserves his arc.

And I don't like the bashing too. Finn is not the "phantom menace" to reylo, nor is a distraction to the Rey/Kylo part of the story. Star Wars is always about a lot of characters, and sorry but if you think at lame Lando, Finn is a demi-God in comparision, c'mon!

EDIT: I don't understand what's the problem with comedy. I don't know, do you like so much Revenge of the sith?

@ZenBrainJam

Who said anything about Reylo? I hate sitting through lame scenes with a lame character. That's all that is. I don't even watch TFA as a whole from so much skipping. I never skip a single beat from GOTG, even lame Ronan and Thanos scenes cause they are short. Also, lame character makes better characters lame. It's never the opposite effect, it's always worse makes better ones worse. That's the worst offense, that they don't contain their lameness to themselves but ruin everything and everyone around them.

There's great comedy and there's lame one. This sounds like Peter Jackson comedy which is the absolute lowest low.

@FrolickingFizzgig And it seems to me as a lame excuse to not have Storm Troopers shot him on the spot. So now they are uninformed. O-kay. Anything that can help Finn get away, make them uninformed, stupid, etc. No problem. And than his fans wonder why he isn't liked and come up with unrelated excuses.

BTW, a character like that doesn't deserve to be Storm trooper Spartcus. There. It would be like Meet the Sparta(cus) parody.

Saracene wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:Stormtrooper rebellion has to happen from a narrative stand-point. Finn's sloppy characterization in the first movie isn't going to get in the way of that IMO.

@FrolickingFizzgig

May I ask why you think that the rebellion has to happen? I'm simply curious because I can't really see it myself.

@Saracene
They introduced the concept of Stormtroopers being brainwashed child-soldiers, one of whom was able to "awaken". I don't think they would go in that direction at all if they didn't intend for these indoctrinated soldiers to break free. It would be a compelling and ironic way to see the First Order fall (as its 'programmed from birth' soldiers abandon the organization, leaving Hux with nothing). It would be a really interesting way to handle the whole Resistance/FO side of the story. But I guess we'll see.

@Blackcanary
I'm encouraged by the fact that they seem to be humanizing another Stormtrooper, even just through comedy. I hope this will be a trend in Episode VIII.

@Blackcanary he doens't care about anyone. he almost doomed the resistance but, of course, there was a lame twist where Phasma gave in all too easily. Everything about this character is wrong. He always gets away when he shouldn't, he always lies and it never backfires cause everyone's,like, you are a good guy. He is selfish beyond measure. he didn't return for Rey because of her but to satisfy his feeling of "doing the right thing". Hero trip. You can't tell me that someone completely incapable of caring about what his incompetence would do to resistance, and who so easily and cheerfully shoots his former mates, really cares about Rey? It's just ego trip pumping.

Now, a good story could be made out of this if they actually set him up as this pathologically selfish person in a goofy guy disguise. But they didn't. They actually think he's the greatest ever. And that's a huge problem.

Finn is a liar, coward and a hypocrite....The fact that he doesn´t seem to understand how bad these things are (he does them so easily) is just to point out his weakness....I don´t like Finn...he is funny but is a weakling with not much morals....granted some of that changes by the end of the movie....he too needs to grow, I guess?

vaderito wrote:

ZenBrainJam wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

Mana wrote:yeah..I love Finn and want the best for him..I only hope the writers do justice to his character in the next movies...

@Mana
And if he does just counter Rey's darker, more intense, dramatic plot with his own more light-hearted one, so be it.

@FrolickingFizzgig

Star Wars is not just heavy drama, if Finn is there to be the light hearted side of the movies is ok. About the characterization, I don't know what went wrong, but I will stay with the wise Hidalgo advice: if something sound strange between books and movies, stick to the movies. So for me Finn is a total weak stormtrooper, with the potential to be a hero for the good reason.
I hope that they will do their best with his character, because writed as less important or not, now he is part of the story and deserves his arc.

And I don't like the bashing too. Finn is not the "phantom menace" to reylo, nor is a distraction to the Rey/Kylo part of the story. Star Wars is always about a lot of characters, and sorry but if you think at lame Lando, Finn is a demi-God in comparision, c'mon!

EDIT: I don't understand what's the problem with comedy. I don't know, do you like so much Revenge of the sith?

@ZenBrainJam

Who said anything about Reylo? I hate sitting through lame scenes with a lame character. That's all that is. I don't even watch TFA as a whole from so much skipping. I never skip a single beat from GOTG, even lame Ronan and Thanos scenes cause they are short. Also, lame character makes better characters lame. It's never the opposite effect, it's always worse makes better ones worse. That's the worst offense, that they don't contain their lameness to themselves but ruin everything and everyone around them.

There's great comedy and there's lame one. This sounds like Peter Jackson comedy which is the absolute lowest low.

@FrolickingFizzgig And it seems to me as a lame excuse to not have Storm Troopers shot him on the spot. So now they are uninformed. O-kay. Anything that can help Finn get away, make them uninformed, stupid, etc. No problem. And than his fans wonder why he isn't liked and come up with unrelated excuses.

BTW, a character like that doesn't deserve to be Storm trooper Spartcus. There. It would be like Meet the Sparta(cus) parody.

@vaderito

Why do you think he doesn't deserve it? I think it would be very good character development, and it's not uncommon at all. Look at Rory from Doctor Who, he started as scared boy and ended as a brave hero and warrior. I actually think Finn was very, very, VERY brave in TFA. It's not easy to do what he did. Imagine if you were brainwashed and trained to do something and then realize that you actually don't want to do it. Most people wouldn't have the courage to do what he did. Think about it, he didn't only betray FO but he helped en enemy soldier escape as well. I'm sure he was thinking about his possible death had they failed.

@Saracene The story needs big battle at the end, kind of like in LOTR. The Resistance doesn't have many soldiers, and even if they have an army, FO has bigger one. If let's say, one third of the Stormtroopers leave FO than the Resistance has a chance to win (and not make it look like they won only because they are good guys)

vaderito wrote:@Blackcanary he doens't care about anyone. he almost doomed the resistance but, of course, there was a lame twist where Phasma gave in all too easily. Everything about this character is wrong. He always gets away when he shouldn't, he always lies and it never backfires cause everyone's,like, you are a good guy. He is selfish beyond measure. he didn't return for Rey because of her but to satisfy his feeling of "doing the right thing". Hero trip. You can't tell me that someone completely incapable of caring about what his incompetence would do to resistance, and who so easily and cheerfully shoots his former mates, really cares about Rey? It's just ego trip pumping.

Now, a good story could be made out of this if they actually set him up as this pathologically selfish person in a goofy guy disguise. But they didn't. They actually think he's the greatest ever. And that's a huge problem.

@vaderito

The writing for him in TFA was completely haphazard and nonsensical. But that doesn't mean they can't improve matters in VIII and actually give him some interesting, meaty conflict rather than the unsatisfying 'because it's the right thing to do' codswallop.

I don't think they consider him the greatest ever. They spent large chunks of TFA undermining him through humour, and gradually marginalising him from the core story. Whether they can make the character relevant and coherent is up in the air, but I would like to see it.

Kylo Ren wrote:Finn is a liar, coward and a hypocrite....The fact that he doesn´t seem to understand how bad these things are (he does them so easily) is just to point out his weakness....I don´t like Finn...he is funny but is a weakling with not much morals....granted some of that changes by the end of the movie....he too needs to grow, I guess?

@Kylo Ren

Yes, that's the thing. if the movie acknowledged that he's a weakling with not much morals who is deluded that he's actually highly moral, that would be interesting. But he comes of like that unintentionally since they are really straining to make him likable and a classic hero.

Storm trooper rebellion, in my opinion, is needed because resistance is too small to take out FO. They'll either have to ally themselves with the underworld (hello Pirate Queen Maz) or FO will have to implode form the inside when part of their troops switches allegiance.

@bela.mesecina he doesn't deserve it because he's one-dimensional character without development. There will be no development. They had a chance and passed on it. 100%. I see where they are going with him. You'll see. There's nothing there.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

Saracene wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:Stormtrooper rebellion has to happen from a narrative stand-point. Finn's sloppy characterization in the first movie isn't going to get in the way of that IMO.

@FrolickingFizzgig

May I ask why you think that the rebellion has to happen? I'm simply curious because I can't really see it myself.

@Saracene
They introduced the concept of Stormtroopers being brainwashed child-soldiers, one of whom was able to "awaken". I don't think they would go in that direction at all if they didn't intend for these indoctrinated soldiers to break free. It would be a compelling and ironic way to see the First Order fall (as its 'programmed from birth' soldiers abandon the organization, leaving Hux with nothing). It would be a really interesting way to handle the whole Resistance/FO side of the story. But I guess we'll see.

@Blackcanary
I'm encouraged by the fact that they seem to be humanizing another Stormtrooper, even just through comedy. I hope this will be a trend in Episode VIII.

@FrolickingFizzgig

They're not really child soldiers, though. They were kidnapped as children, but it takes Finn until the ripe age of 23 to finally see action.

... which seems completely unrealistic for men who were kidnapped as children with the intention of training them into hardened soldiers, by the way. Even Mediaeval noblemen usually took part in their first battles in their mid-teens.

vaderito wrote:@Blackcanary he doens't care about anyone. he almost doomed the resistance but, of course, there was a lame twist where Phasma gave in all too easily. Everything about this character is wrong. He always gets away when he shouldn't, he always lies and it never backfires cause everyone's,like, you are a good guy. He is selfish beyond measure. he didn't return for Rey because of her but to satisfy his feeling of "doing the right thing". Hero trip. You can't tell me that someone completely incapable of caring about what his incompetence would do to resistance, and who so easily and cheerfully shoots his former mates, really cares about Rey? It's just ego trip pumping.

Now, a good story could be made out of this if they actually set him up as this pathologically selfish person in a goofy guy disguise. But they didn't. They actually think he's the greatest ever. And that's a huge problem.

@vaderito
Again, I'm not throwing a character under the bus because of the first movie in a trilogy. I don't like when people do it with Kylo, I'm not going to do it with Finn regardless of how contradictory/sloppy I think is characterization was. There are two movies left.

As for the bolded, they could get to that place with just a few scenes in Episode VIII. Someone would just have to call him out on it. Remember that Han kind of saw it already. He was constantly irritated with Finn, he saw that he was lying to Rey immediately and he was very upset when Finn revealed that he lied in order to be brought to Starkiller to rescue Rey. We already had a character being rather dismissive of Finn's blatant disregard for the Resistance. It could be followed up on, and it wouldn't come across as unbelievable IMO.

The character/movie bashing is making me (and I believe others) uncomfortable. I don't think this is the place for it.

@Darth Dingbat
They're not child-soldiers, but they were kidnapped/brainwashed as children. It's the brainwashing (which is mentioned repeatedly) that makes me think the rebellion could happen given the right stressors. That's what the movie gave us, that's what I'm going with. Other than that, I have no real desire to make assumptions when the story hasn't been told yet. We'll see what happens in Episode VIII.

Another thing I want to add, is that Finn has a precise role into the plot that is (sorry Finn, now I am go heavy with you) shed light on other relationship/characters.
How will you tell that Rey is now falling in love with Kylo Ren? Comparing her relationship with Finn with her relationship with Kylo Ren. You must have both in a movie like star wars, because while they are going on with the adventure plot, they must go on with the romantic one at the same time with the same scenes.

Because, sorry, but if you actually think that they will give us a movie filled with sighs, embraces, longing, shirtless rain scene, shirtless waterfall scene, kisses, hand holding, babies, force vision about future babies, another lot of kisses and a wedding, let me remind you that we are talking about star WARS. So probably you will have a lot of pew pew pew pew, a lot of ships battle, blaster shots all over the place, lightsaber duels, hands chopping, politic, Snoke (maybe shirtless, I'll give you that), another round of politic, more pew pew pew pew, tons of explosions and maybe some droid humor here and there. And stop.
And you will deduce that Rey is falling in love with Kylo Ren only because looking at her with Finn and at her with Kylo, in between an hand chopping and a pew pew round, you will be able to spot the differences more than in TFA. Star wars is like this. And I think that we can't complain about it, because TFA has already a lot more romance tension than the OT, just tons more imho.

vaderito wrote:

Kylo Ren wrote:Finn is a liar, coward and a hypocrite....The fact that he doesn´t seem to understand how bad these things are (he does them so easily) is just to point out his weakness....I don´t like Finn...he is funny but is a weakling with not much morals....granted some of that changes by the end of the movie....he too needs to grow, I guess?

@Kylo Ren

Yes, that's the thing. if the movie acknowledged that he's a weakling with not much morals who is deluded that he's actually highly moral, that would be interesting. But he comes of like that unintentionally since they are really straining to make him likable and a classic hero.

Storm trooper rebellion, in my opinion, is needed because resistance is too small to take out FO. They'll either have to ally themselves with the underworld (hello Pirate Queen Maz) or FO will have to implode form the inside when part of their troops switches allegiance.

@bela.mesecina he doesn't deserve it because he's one-dimensional character without development. There will be no development. They had a chance and passed on it. 100%. I see where they are going with him. You'll see. There's nothing there.

@vaderito

*

vaderito wrote:

Kylo Ren wrote:Finn is a liar, coward and a hypocrite....The fact that he doesn´t seem to understand how bad these things are (he does them so easily) is just to point out his weakness....I don´t like Finn...he is funny but is a weakling with not much morals....granted some of that changes by the end of the movie....he too needs to grow, I guess?

@Kylo Ren

Yes, that's the thing. if the movie acknowledged that he's a weakling with not much morals who is deluded that he's actually highly moral, that would be interesting. But he comes of like that unintentionally since they are really straining to make him likable and a classic hero.

Storm trooper rebellion, in my opinion, is needed because resistance is too small to take out FO. They'll either have to ally themselves with the underworld (hello Pirate Queen Maz) or FO will have to implode form the inside when part of their troops switches allegiance.

@bela.mesecina he doesn't deserve it because he's one-dimensional character without development. There will be no development. They had a chance and passed on it. 100%. I see where they are going with him. You'll see. There's nothing there.

@vaderito
There is going to be something, though I do believe his arc will be more focused on comedy simply because Rey's will likely be darker and more dramatic. And again, please stop with the character/movie bashing. The "holier than thou/I'm right/you're wrong" attitude is making me (and I believe others) extremely uncomfortable. It has no place in this thread whatsoever.

bela.mesecina wrote:Why do you think he doesn't deserve it? I think it would be very good character development, and it's not uncommon at all. Look at Rory from Doctor Who, he started as scared boy and ended as a brave hero and warrior. I actually think Finn was very, very, VERY brave in TFA. It's not easy to do what he did. Imagine if you were brainwashed and trained to do something and then realize that you actually don't want to do it. Most people wouldn't have the courage to do what he did. Think about it, he didn't only betray FO but he helped en enemy soldier escape as well. I'm sure he was thinking about his possible death had they failed.

@bela.mesecina

I thought that Finn going against Kylo was pretty damn brave. He'd have to know that he had zero chance of winning and every chance of dying. He was terrified and still went for it.

Finn leaving the First Order sounds brave in theory, but I just can't really feel it. Because it happens so fast and so soon after we meet the character, it's impossible (for me) to feel the gravity of his decision. We're merely told that he's been trained to be a killer. In any movie that was taking it seriously, there'd be a build-up to his decision, but there's none in TFA.

I haven't thought of First Order rebellion boosting the Resistance' numbers. I guess there could be something in it.

I´m sorry @FrolickingFizzgig but I probably misunderstood you on this one, of all people...I don´t bash anything...it´s my opinion based on what´s presented in the movie...but Okay...I can see your point, so I won´t do it anymore....in this thread Thnx

Saracene wrote:

bela.mesecina wrote:Why do you think he doesn't deserve it? I think it would be very good character development, and it's not uncommon at all. Look at Rory from Doctor Who, he started as scared boy and ended as a brave hero and warrior. I actually think Finn was very, very, VERY brave in TFA. It's not easy to do what he did. Imagine if you were brainwashed and trained to do something and then realize that you actually don't want to do it. Most people wouldn't have the courage to do what he did. Think about it, he didn't only betray FO but he helped en enemy soldier escape as well. I'm sure he was thinking about his possible death had they failed.

@bela.mesecina

I thought that Finn going against Kylo was pretty damn brave. He'd have to know that he had zero chance of winning and every chance of dying. He was terrified and still went for it.

Finn leaving the First Order sounds brave in theory, but I just can't really feel it. Because it happens so fast and so soon after we meet the character, it's impossible (for me) to feel the gravity of his decision. We're merely told that he's been trained to be a killer. In any movie that was taking it seriously, there'd be a build-up to his decision, but there's none in TFA.

I haven't thought of First Order rebellion boosting the Resistance' numbers. I guess there could be something in it.

@Saracene

I think this is partly why I failed to really engage with him: I enjoy the process of struggle within a character. Finn's 'big' decision comes within his first couple of scenes! Would have much preferred to see him wavering following participating in that initial slaughter of the village, weighing up his future versus his fear versus his conscience and finally switching sides late in the film - perhaps to assist Rey in escaping following her Jedi mind trick on the Bond trooper. Would have been much more tense and gripping that way.