Discussion: Finn/FN-2187/John Boyega

Kylo Ren wrote:I´m sorry @FrolickingFizzgig but I probably misunderstood you on this one, of all people...I don´t bash anything...it´s my opinion based on what´s presented in the movie...but Okay...I can see your point, so I won´t do it anymore....in this thread Thnx

@Kylo Ren
You weren't really bashing IMO. You were presenting reasons based on taste/opinion why you felt Finn's characterization was sloppy (like just about everybody here). Bashing is "I hate this, I hate that, he deserves to be this, he deserves to be that."

@Vaderito
Others were presenting constructive criticism. Last night you said you wanted the character to be punished/hated/be killed as a result of your opinion about him. Complaining about how much you hate something is not constructive criticism.

Also I wrote a whole post about how Kylo is definitely not losing an arm because of an injury that is clearly healable in the SW universe. If he does, it'll be in some other situation and will be direct (as per tradition). Finn is not going to be in a wheelchair or something either. Deleted scene has the nurse saying he'll be fine. He'll be fine.

Blackcanary wrote:

Saracene wrote:

bela.mesecina wrote:Why do you think he doesn't deserve it? I think it would be very good character development, and it's not uncommon at all. Look at Rory from Doctor Who, he started as scared boy and ended as a brave hero and warrior. I actually think Finn was very, very, VERY brave in TFA. It's not easy to do what he did. Imagine if you were brainwashed and trained to do something and then realize that you actually don't want to do it. Most people wouldn't have the courage to do what he did. Think about it, he didn't only betray FO but he helped en enemy soldier escape as well. I'm sure he was thinking about his possible death had they failed.

@bela.mesecina

I thought that Finn going against Kylo was pretty damn brave. He'd have to know that he had zero chance of winning and every chance of dying. He was terrified and still went for it.

Finn leaving the First Order sounds brave in theory, but I just can't really feel it. Because it happens so fast and so soon after we meet the character, it's impossible (for me) to feel the gravity of his decision. We're merely told that he's been trained to be a killer. In any movie that was taking it seriously, there'd be a build-up to his decision, but there's none in TFA.

I haven't thought of First Order rebellion boosting the Resistance' numbers. I guess there could be something in it.

@Saracene

I think this is partly why I failed to really engage with him: I enjoy the process of struggle within a character. Finn's 'big' decision comes within his first couple of scenes! Would have much preferred to see him wavering following participating in that initial slaughter of the village, weighing up his future versus his fear versus his conscience and finally switching sides late in the film - perhaps to assist Rey in escaping following her Jedi mind trick on the Bond trooper. Would have been much more tense and gripping that way.

@Blackcanary

Yes, Finn doesn't have the struggle that we like so much in Kylo. And that is another "spot the difference" involving Finn that help us to enlighten a more complex and less showed character as Kylo Ren.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

Kylo Ren wrote:I´m sorry @FrolickingFizzgig but I probably misunderstood you on this one, of all people...I don´t bash anything...it´s my opinion based on what´s presented in the movie...but Okay...I can see your point, so I won´t do it anymore....in this thread Thnx

@Kylo Ren
You weren't really bashing IMO. You were presenting reasons based on taste/opinion why you felt Finn's characterization was sloppy (like just about everybody here). Bashing is "I hate this, I hate that, he deserves to be this, he deserves to be that."

@FrolickingFizzgig

Oh...okay....I mizunderstand often carry on thread:)

Kylo Ren wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

Kylo Ren wrote:I´m sorry @FrolickingFizzgig but I probably misunderstood you on this one, of all people...I don´t bash anything...it´s my opinion based on what´s presented in the movie...but Okay...I can see your point, so I won´t do it anymore....in this thread Thnx

@Kylo Ren
You weren't really bashing IMO. You were presenting reasons based on taste/opinion why you felt Finn's characterization was sloppy (like just about everybody here). Bashing is "I hate this, I hate that, he deserves to be this, he deserves to be that."

@FrolickingFizzgig

Oh...okay....I mizunderstand often carry on thread:)

@Kylo Ren

No, the comment was 100% about me and it was Fizz with her insisting that Kylo must lose his arm because it's going to be so poetic that upset me and triggered this rant. I hate that idea. Why should Kylo end up disfigured while Finn is going to strut his stuff? That's horrible. Scar should be enough.

vaderito wrote:@Blackcanary he doens't care about anyone. he almost doomed the resistance but, of course, there was a lame twist where Phasma gave in all too easily. Everything about this character is wrong. He always gets away when he shouldn't, he always lies and it never backfires cause everyone's,like, you are a good guy. He is selfish beyond measure. he didn't return for Rey because of her but to satisfy his feeling of "doing the right thing". Hero trip. You can't tell me that someone completely incapable of caring about what his incompetence would do to resistance, and who so easily and cheerfully shoots his former mates, really cares about Rey? It's just ego trip pumping.

Now, a good story could be made out of this if they actually set him up as this pathologically selfish person in a goofy guy disguise. But they didn't. They actually think he's the greatest ever. And that's a huge problem.

@vaderito

In ANH Luke and Han (while waiting for Obi Wan) went to rescue Leia in the most lame, sloppy, way possible, and there was a trash compactor too. So no, it's not lame. Is a SW tradition!
And about Kylo losing his arm... poor boy. I hope not! Now Rey is another thing.. I can see her, robotic and bucky and bad***...

vaderito wrote:

Kylo Ren wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

Kylo Ren wrote:I´m sorry @FrolickingFizzgig but I probably misunderstood you on this one, of all people...I don´t bash anything...it´s my opinion based on what´s presented in the movie...but Okay...I can see your point, so I won´t do it anymore....in this thread Thnx

@Kylo Ren
You weren't really bashing IMO. You were presenting reasons based on taste/opinion why you felt Finn's characterization was sloppy (like just about everybody here). Bashing is "I hate this, I hate that, he deserves to be this, he deserves to be that."

@FrolickingFizzgig

Oh...okay....I mizunderstand often carry on thread:)

@Kylo Ren

No, the comment was 100% about me and it was Fizz with her insisting that Kylo must lose his arm because it's going to be so poetic that upset me and triggered this rant. I hate that idea. Why should Kylo end up disfigured while Finn is going to strut his stuff? That's horrible. Scar should be enough.

@vaderito
Okay, now you're putting words in my mouth.

Here's my comment from last night on the matter. My only comment about the arm topic:

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
Guys, it's a larger-than-life fantasy where people can move objects with their minds. Real-life anatomy doesn't apply any more than real-life space travel. They can literally rebuild fully-functional limbs in a galaxy far, far away. They obviously have medicinal capabilities that go far beyond what we have in our present era. Finn isn't going to be in a wheelchair or have nerve damage, Kylo isn't going to lose his arm because of saber slice to the shoulder. If he does lose one it won't be because of this.

Saracene wrote:

bela.mesecina wrote:Why do you think he doesn't deserve it? I think it would be very good character development, and it's not uncommon at all. Look at Rory from Doctor Who, he started as scared boy and ended as a brave hero and warrior. I actually think Finn was very, very, VERY brave in TFA. It's not easy to do what he did. Imagine if you were brainwashed and trained to do something and then realize that you actually don't want to do it. Most people wouldn't have the courage to do what he did. Think about it, he didn't only betray FO but he helped en enemy soldier escape as well. I'm sure he was thinking about his possible death had they failed.

@bela.mesecina

I thought that Finn going against Kylo was pretty damn brave. He'd have to know that he had zero chance of winning and every chance of dying. He was terrified and still went for it.

Finn leaving the First Order sounds brave in theory, but I just can't really feel it. Because it happens so fast and so soon after we meet the character, it's impossible (for me) to feel the gravity of his decision. We're merely told that he's been trained to be a killer. In any movie that was taking it seriously, there'd be a build-up to his decision, but there's none in TFA.

I haven't thought of First Order rebellion boosting the Resistance' numbers. I guess there could be something in it.

@Saracene
We don't know much about Kylo either, but we still think he will be redeemed. We don't know what happened before tfa. Maybe Finn won't have direct part in the Stormtrooper rebellion, maybe they'll start talking about him among themselves and slowly start to question their own lives. That way, Finn can have a lot of funny screen time with the resistance and still have huge impact on the story, because if they want to make the resistance's victory believable something has to weaken FO. Maybe Finn and the rest of characters who are with him run into few other Stormtroopers and they tell them how he has become a legend among others. Examples in other movies/shows: Battlestar Galactica- Boomer and Caprica six became war heroes among Cylones (bad guys), but they had feelings for humans and thought that killing them was wrong, and other Cylones started joining them.
And look at the Stargate SG1- Teal'c was Jaffa (bad guys), he was the leader of all Jaffa, and he betrayed them and joined heroes. He was marked as a traitor by the other Jaffa but slowly they realized he was right (because they started talking about him and he became a legend). And Jaffa were brainwashed just like Stormtroopers, they believed they were fighting for Gods. But they rebelled and it was big reason why heroes won. Finn reminds me very much of Teal'c.(except he's funny all the time)

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:@Vaderito
Changing the subject after you shoved words in my mouth? I never insisted that Kylo should lose an arm or would lose an arm.

Again, here is my post from last night. My only post on the subject:

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
Guys, it's a larger-than-life fantasy where people can move objects with their minds. Real-life anatomy doesn't apply any more than real-life space travel. They can literally rebuild fully-functional limbs in a galaxy far, far away. They obviously have medicinal capabilities that go far beyond what we have in our present era. Finn isn't going to be in a wheelchair or have nerve damage, Kylo isn't going to lose his arm because of saber slice to the shoulder. If he does lose one it won't be because of this.

.
Please acknowledge that you shoved words in someone else's mouth.

@FrolickingFizzgig

Ok, fine, this time I acknowledge. But I remember your insistence that he must lose a limb cause it's poetic or whatever. I remember that. And I hope you are wrong. he lost enough. Losing a limb and getting mechanical one doesn't fit BatB. he isn't half-machine like Vader. he's a monstah. Scar is enough.

@Maria Antonietta Not it isn't. She's a woman. Women and minorities won't lose limbs. You can take that to the bank. And than people wonder why their characters are poorly written and don't compete for the oscars, etc.

Well, I actually like Finn, but I see how he might rub others the wrong way. Finn won't be offended if somebody hates him. Hard to offend someone who doesn't even exist

I can't even really say why exactly I like Finn. I would like him more if they allowed him to be a real character. And by "real character" I don't mean having psychological depth or moral gravitas. I love characters that are fun, too. I love - as long they're done well - comic characters that are very flawed, even infuriating, in some way but still manage to be oddly likeable. From goofballs to grumps, wonderful characters come in all shapes and sizes.

But I hated the way they failed to commit to a characterisation with Finn. It seemed to me that John understood the character and played him as the "fun", flawed character that was still a likeable everyman. But giving him moral high ground when he doesn't really deserve it was a big mistake, IMO. There was no point in emphasising him being a GOOD MAN with a few superficial gestures, when his strength, as a character, didn't lie in his ethics (which were shaky at best) or in his morality and psychological struggles (which were non-existent), but in being fun. This trilogy needs a lot of fun, because we can foresee that lots of angst lies ahead. I hope Finn and KMT are allowed to provide the fun.

GUYS

Y'all gotta take a chill pill. Make a Finn thread. Dissect and argue about him there please! The Finn debacle has taken up a good part of 3 pages already. Let's discuss butt slapping spoilers here but characterization in the Finn thread.

pleeeaaaaaasseeee!!!

second that

Writers dropped the ball on Finn. Some think he's beyond saving character-wise and will continue to be safe and uninteresting, while others think he can be fleshed out, given real conflict and turned into a believable character.

Discuss.

Too soon lol

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:Too soon lol

@FrolickingFizzgig

if mods could clean up Spoiler thread and transfer all Finn discussion here, that would be great.

I don't think Finn will ever be the most interesting, compelling or nuanced character, but I do believe his characterization will become more focused and believable. We have two films left. Writing Finn off based entirely on his characterization in TFA is exactly the same as writing Kylo off for that same reason. Chances are Finn will never be my favourite character, but taste is taste. I'm remaining open-minded and optimistic.

I think that they just want him to be instantly likable and that's all. They thought that making him Storm Trooper In Name Only (never saw action, never hurt a fly) would carry him over but they overestimated themselves. Writing was poor and he came off as unintentionally shady rather than endearingly misguided. Also, people who are not supposed to trust anyone easy are trusting him within seconds of meeting him, even though he acts 100 suspicious (sweating, shifting eyes, fake posturing). Disaster.

I hope - and believe - that Finn's chemistry with KMT's character will click in a major way and he'll find his place in the narrative. When I say "find his place in the narrative", I don't mean I expect them to find reserves of depth and nuance in the character; mostly I expect fun.

vaderito wrote:I think that they just want him to be instantly likable and that's all. They thought that making him Storm Trooper In Name Only (never saw action, never hurt a fly) would carry him over but they overestimated themselves. Writing was poor and he came off as unintentionally shady rather than endearingly misguided. Also, people who are not supposed to trust anyone easy are trusting him within seconds of meeting him, even though he acts 100 suspicious (sweating, shifting eyes, fake posturing). Disaster.

@vaderito
I just have no strong feelings about him. I'm not heavily invested in him, therefore I can't be disappointed. I can only be pleasantly surprised with what Johnson offers. Finn has his moments in TFA, and while I agree there are a few examples of contradictory characterization, he can be endearing. I thought Boyega delivered a performance that actually salvaged what would have been a much worse situation if handled by many different actors. If Boyega had not played Finn, FinnRey would not exist period.

I also don't think his characterization was a complete cop-out for one good reason (or two I guess): Han and Maz. Han saw through Finn's lies and deceit immediately. As did Maz. The film did acknowledge that Finn was a "man who wanted to run" more than once. I think this could be addressed again in Episode VIII, and it could easily lead to character growth.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:  
I just have no strong feelings about him. I'm not heavily invested in him, therefore I can't be disappointed. I can only be pleasantly surprised with what Johnson offers. Finn has his moments in TFA, and while I agree there are a few examples of contradictory characterization, he can be endearing. I thought Boyega delivered a performance that actually salvaged what would have been a much worse situation if handled by many different actors. If Boyega had not played Finn, FinnRey would not exist period.

I also don't think his characterization was a complete cop-out for one good reason (or two I guess): Han and Maz. Han saw through Finn's lies and deceit immediately. As did Maz. The film did acknowledge that Finn was a "man who wanted to run" more than once. I think this could be addressed again in Episode VIII, and it could easily lead to character growth.

@FrolickingFizzgig

They knew but weren't firm with him. Han could have sent him away or something. he suffered no consequences, none. And that's bad.

vaderito wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:  
I just have no strong feelings about him. I'm not heavily invested in him, therefore I can't be disappointed. I can only be pleasantly surprised with what Johnson offers. Finn has his moments in TFA, and while I agree there are a few examples of contradictory characterization, he can be endearing. I thought Boyega delivered a performance that actually salvaged what would have been a much worse situation if handled by many different actors. If Boyega had not played Finn, FinnRey would not exist period.

I also don't think his characterization was a complete cop-out for one good reason (or two I guess): Han and Maz. Han saw through Finn's lies and deceit immediately. As did Maz. The film did acknowledge that Finn was a "man who wanted to run" more than once. I think this could be addressed again in Episode VIII, and it could easily lead to character growth.

@FrolickingFizzgig

They knew but weren't firm with him. Han could have sent him away or something. he suffered no consequences, none. And that's bad.  

@vaderito
The way fans treat each other on the internet is not something any production member (actor, director, writer, whatever) can ever hope to solve. It wouldn't matter if Boyega issued a statement of some kind. People have already made up their minds. It's no different from fan-related theories. And I think Ridley has done what she can simply by showing her support to a few Reylo-related artworks over the past few months. It certainly drilled into the antis' heads that they can't use the "what would the actors think!?" strawman argument.

And yeah, Maz and Han knew. That means the writers acknowledged it, which means it won't be forgotten in Episodes VIII/IX. We're getting a follow-up on it guaranteed, which leads us to the question of the thread: can his characterization be improved? Yes. Yes it can.

well, getting his butt slapped by a clueless fellow Storm trooper whom he'll likely going to kill with a woo-hoo glee is a good start.

vaderito wrote:well, getting his butt slapped by a clueless fellow Storm trooper whom he'll likely going to kill with a woo-hoo glee is a good start.

@vaderito
Highly doubt he's going to kill him. The spoiler (if it's even true) literally said he walked away.

Kylo Ren wrote:Finn is a liar, coward and a hypocrite....The fact that he doesn´t seem to understand how bad these things are (he does them so easily) is just to point out his weakness....I don´t like Finn...he is funny but is a weakling with not much morals....granted some of that changes by the end of the movie....he too needs to grow, I guess?

@Kylo Ren

^^This so much.

I need to write my meta on Finn & The Beasts.... which is a mirror of the Beauty & Beasts motif in TFA. He is literally Jar Jar Binks in TFAb he mirrors CP3O in ANH...

He is that nobody that you are looking for in TFA,

Regarding that butt-slapping spoiler, something just occurred to me.

We've often said that it's unbelievable how quickly everybody in the Resistance trusts Finn. Well, what if KMT's character does NOT trust him at first, but is forced to work with him? That would bring some real tension to their dynamic. Add to this some good chemistry and BOOM. Sparks flying, right there.

And though that butt-slapping scene sounds idiotic from the description, what if it actually serves a purpose in context, apart from him getting away from a sticky situation - KMT's character witnesses the exchange, and it feeds her suspicions?

Darth Dingbat wrote:Regarding that butt-slapping spoiler, something just occurred to me.

We've often said that it's unbelievable how quickly everybody in the Resistance trusts Finn. Well, what if KMT's character does NOT trust him at first, but is forced to work with him? That would bring some real tension to their dynamic. Add to this some good chemistry and BOOM. Sparks flying, right there.

And though that butt-slapping scene sounds idiotic from the description, what if it actually serves a purpose in context, apart from him getting away from a sticky situation - KMT's character witnesses the exchange, and it feeds her suspicions?

@Darth Dingbat
This would be an interesting way to kick-start their dynamic. I would love to see KMT call Finn out on his behavior and motivations, make him question what he really wants, why he's scared, what really matters to him. There are a lot of ways they could improve Finn's characterization. KMT just seems like a logical step because we know he's going to be spending a good deal of time with her.