Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors

special_cases wrote:@Atenais They should change Darth Sidious title to Darth Reylo

@rey09 I agree that this is frustrating but I think they simply can't put all of this in the movie because it will confirm Bendemption. Like, redemption for Kylo right now is much more obvious comparing to how it was with Vader but the story still requires some kind of suspense and question.

@special_cases

While I get redemption might be obvious, what's more exciting is how it happens- when will he turn? in what circumstance? In other cases where redemption may have been foreseen, the way it happens is probably more huge. Some people with kylo think death is good, vs not a good idea so even with redemption there are various story outcomes.

special_cases wrote:@Atenais They should change Darth Sidious title to Darth Reylo

@rey09 I agree that this is frustrating but I think they simply can't put all of this in the movie because it will confirm Bendemption. Like, redemption for Kylo right now is much more obvious comparing to how it was with Vader but the story still requires some kind of suspense and question.

@nickandnora Yes, mostly correct. It's unclear if everything happens synchronously but the Resistance gets a data encorder with info from Boolio before Kylo returns from Palpy. Because when Kylo is at FO meeting, Boolio's head is thrown on the table and he says that he knows about the spy. That data encorder includes info about Sith Fleet and Palpy, it's unclear if Resistance was looking for information exactly about Kylo's journey to UR or they just regularly get info from the spy. Finn and Poe open this encorder only when they already returned to the base. (Kylo's FO meeting happens after this.) Resistance is worried about children that will be needed for Sith Fleet and they go on "mission". "Mission" is to find person on Pasaana who knows about Sith artifact (from Luke's books).

@special_cases

OK cool, thanks!

Alright then, I'm definitely going to double down on my previous prediction/speculation of Kylo's motivation then, because the timing actually makes sense: Whatever his reasons for originally seeking out the Unknown Regions (I like your idea that it was wanting to find the power to reconnect the force bond), when he leaves he's motivated to protect Rey from something he specifically learned from Palpatine, that he told him with his own (un)dead(?) mouth. I suspect that it's more than just "he's your grandfather" and the convoluted story of her parents' death - I still feel there is some missing piece, and that piece might contain Kylo's reasoning - because he seems to tell her those other things pretty early on, but STILL wants her to stay away from Palpatine. He releases the Sith fleet as part of an agreement for the power to reactivate the force bond, but also as a means of insuring Rey doesn't find out some truth he doesn't want her to know (he's basically offering himself up in Rey's stead). But then he gets wind of the fact that the Resistance is onto where he was and is off trying to find their own way to Palpatine... and thus begins the chase.

(Sidenote: The leaks at one point say something about Kylo trying to prevent Rey from killing Palpatine her relative because "he doesn't want her to be like him." I'll just say that while that's interesting and I think there might be something to that sentiment, I'm not sure I buy that Kylo is connecting that to *Palpatine* specifically.)

Why yes, I do have a theory as to the connecting piece that's missing, lol. I think there's one detail about her parents' deaths that would make all of this make sense, and if I'm on the right track with finally figuring out Kylo's motivation, I think I know what it might be.

You know, all of this makes me circle back around to the theory that it was Snoke (Palpatine?) messing with Luke with dark side visions and impulses that pushed Luke to raise his lightsaber near sleeping Ben. Because isolating your victim and making them believe you're their only ally in the world is classic abuser tactic. In the context of Ben running to Snoke as his only "friend" after the Jedi school incident, I can see the whole situation having been a trap to begin with. Snoke's machinations to finally get Ben into his clutches.

I guess in a way that would absolve Luke slightly. Though I'm sure fanboys would still get angry and claim he should have been strong enough to see through that, etc.

special_cases wrote:Ah sweet sweet vindication! No more this "school shooter" nonsense. We always knew that there wasn't massacre by Ben.

@special_cases

And no more of “but but Kylo totally planned to destroy the school anyway, Luke Did Nothing Wrong when he pulled the lightsaber on him”.

Re: Kylo falling down never to be seen again, honestly there are soooo many other ways to kill off Kylo while giving him and Rey/Kylo dynamic an emotional resolution. Of course according to the leaks there’s no emotional dynamic between the characters whatsoever so no resolution is needed. But that’s clearly not the story according to what everyone involved with the movie has been saying.

Saracene wrote:

special_cases wrote:Ah sweet sweet vindication! No more this "school shooter" nonsense. We always knew that there wasn't massacre by Ben.

@special_cases

And no more of “but but Kylo totally planned to destroy the school anyway, Luke Did Nothing Wrong when he pulled the lightsaber on him”.

@Saracene



I admit this validation feels good, we've been telling for years that if Ben truly slaughtered those Padawans, then it would already have been shown in the movies. So it means something else happened.

But I feel sad for Ben, to know his "friends" tried to kill him to take revenge for Luke's death. Luke was really a garbage teacher, his students can't sense if a person is dead or alive, and their first Jedi's instinct is to kill their fellow student. And why did he bring young Ben to fight the KOR in the past!

However these events happens in the issue 2 of the comic, I wonder if maybe the 1st issue is about Ben and Luke's students discovering that Vader is Ben's grandpa. It may be referenced in TROS since the author said it was best to read the comic before the movie.

The timeline for TROS is much more challenging to put together than TLJ. I'm not sure what the 3rd act setpieces are. Then again, we didn't know about FG Luke until TLJ came out. But Rey and Kylo have 9 scenes together are are still fighting each other? Rey in particular still looks fairly aggressive in the DS fight scenes.

And how many planets are there, I recall hearing there's quite a few. The jungle planet at the beginning, Pasaana, Kijimi, the grassy planet where the DS is. Maybe more we haven't seen? What are most of the supporting characters doing during the Reylo scenes, and where are they? This is certainly an interesting movie to try piecing together.

@californiagirl
He didn't need to be redeemed in the second part, but there was 98% of us believed that they wouldn't push Kylo to become some sort of the big bad. Not just Reylo forum but Reylos on other places were confident that LFL wouldn't do it too and that's how we fell prey to our own belief.

@special_cases
Obviously, that scene means that JJ just wants to remove Kylo from the final battle by letting him fall down the pit about 5 minutes later after he's arrived to help Rey. Rian already did something similar, he put Rey in a position where she was force-paralyzed by Snoke, but he still allowed Rey to fight side by side with Kylo later because Rian not only wanted them to be a power couple and but also because he was a Kylo fanboy and he had never hidden it so he tried his best to help Kylo out of the place where Kylo was looked down by all fanboys and general audience. Hence, the line "You underestimate Ben Solo" was like a spit on dudebros' face because they had always underestimated Kylo and had deemed him unworthy since TFA on the internet.
As a Kylo stan, I'm so tired of the lame jokes they made to mock Kylo, it's not just dudebros on the internet but people in real life too. And I'm no fool to not realize that after TROS, people will get the impression that Kylo is just a "weak" character (again!) because all Kylo can do is fall down the pit and leave his girl to face the big bad evil who destroyed his family since day one all by herself. Seriously JJ Abrams? Do you really hate Kylo that much, to the point that you have to demasculinize him again?

It's fun as in the trailer and other promotions, they present Kylo / Ben as a romantic hero but he will only die falling down a well and not be seen again. Sorry I have to laugh, that is a daring

@OrionStars There's honestly no reason for this to happen, no just for the story, but it hurts LF as well. And no one involved is framing the film or the character as someone who needs to die. Adam isn't claiming it's his favorite role just so he could be another Vader. He doesn't even like blockbuster film, and hasn't signed on to any more even with the SW fame. There's something about this role that appeals to him. Did he once say it reminded him of himself and Joanne? And again, even the leakers don't agree on this, which suggests to me they either don't really know, or there's conflicting information out there. What I know is that the people who were right about TLJ and have been right about TROS thus far are laughing at this idea.

@OrionStars I hope it's not going to happen, but with JJ at the helm I can see things reverting back to the TFA mode where it's all ridiculously lopsided in Rey's favour, she gets to win every fight, doesn't really need anyone's help etc. Especially when the promotional material is really pushing her as the new hero that rises.

But even in this case, there's still absolutely no need to get Kylo 100% physically out of the scene by tossing him down the pit. He can just get mortally wounded by Palpatine or even killed period with a force lightning or what have you. Then Rey could finish off Palpatine by her own and have the last emotional goodbye scene, or cry over Kylo's body etc. Rey just staring sadly down the pit in the end doesn't really have the same oomph. It's like, why would you retread the ending of RoTJ and deliberately exclude its emotional highpoints like Luke and Vader's last conversation?

@OrionStars C'mon, it's not that black-and-white. Fanboys will be whining in every scenario, and to be honest, everybody will be more pressed if there is no Anakin present in the finale battle (which is quite fair, if we're talking about presence at least).

The finale battle looks like reverse TLJ battle. First, Reylo takes bunch of dudes, and then Rey takes out Big Bad. In TLJ Kylo took out Big Bad first and then they killed Guards. I mean, at this point Rey need to have a big win because first duel with Kylo was hardly an accomplishment, it was "mercy" win, and not only because Kylo was injured, but because he sincerely didn't want to hurt her.

I don't think we should even worry for fandom laughing at Kylo if he is really dying in the pit. Because even vicious fanboys won't take this garbage seriously. Not even Driver's acting can save it. It will be most criticised thing ever by majority.

The more we've discussed the more I feel 99.99% certain he isn't going to just fall off and that's it. It sounds ridiculous, JJ and co. will be made a laughing stock. It's always been about balance, the two of the them, and even Palps says himself the both of them coming together will be their end, meaning none other than the both of them will end him. I think he will come back however and together they will stop him.

I was some ppl on reddit, their comment on the blue sabers photo, they find it cool but they're all like- yea but then he dies right after o wells. That kind of comment solidifies more my thought on this. If the oblivious fanboys think it's the truth, then it's prob the opposite.

To some degree I can understand wanting Kylo's end to mirror Han's as a sort of "penance." But at the same time....no. Han's death we know is permanent because he's a normie who was just stabbed through the chest. Kylo is an extremely powerful Force user in a universe where those sorts never die from getting thrown down pits AND he was just drained rather than stabbed or having entire limbs cut off. I'm not buying that he's dead if he falls. If he is "never seen again" in TROS, that just means he's going to show up in a laughable manner sometime down the line, if only in comics and such.

special_cases wrote:@OrionStars C'mon, it's not that black-and-white. Fanboys will be whining in every scenario, and to be honest, everybody will be more pressed if there is no Anakin present in the finale battle (which is quite fair, if we're talking about presence at least).

The finale battle looks like reverse TLJ battle. First, Reylo takes bunch of dudes, and then Rey takes out Big Bad. In TLJ Kylo took out Big Bad first and then they killed Guards. I mean, at this point Rey need to have a big win because first duel with Kylo was hardly an accomplishment, it was "mercy" win, and not only because Kylo was injured, but because he sincerely didn't want to hurt her.

I don't think we should even worry for fandom laughing at Kylo if he is really dying in the pit. Because even vicious fanboys won't take this garbage seriously. Not even Driver's acting can save it. It will be most criticised thing ever by majority.

@special_cases

Sometimes I feel like I'm the literally only one who sees the (kind of ridiculously conspicuous) absence of Anakin, even in a force-ghost voice scene, and thinks it's only proof-solid that Ben and Rey are Anakin and Padme combined and reborn. Can't exactly appear as a ghost if your essence has been rebirthed as your grandson and you're currently acting out the inverse of your tragic life story and setting things right.

I mean, regardless of how it happens, the symbolism of ANY rebirth that occurs for Ben/Kylo on the Death Star is kind of heavy handed. The Rise of Skywalker indeed.

(If his voice or essence does appear in the final battle scene and this reincarnation thing isn't literal, that's fine with me too. I'm just saying if we see/hear every force ghost that ever existed over the course of this thing and there's no Anakin, that's definitely going to be why.)

@special_cases
@Saracene
@californiagirl

Yeah, Adam didn't lie, Kylo is no Vader, and Reylo might mirror Adam and his wife's love story in some ways, but we all know that Adam is a professional actor, he will never cry, sulk and whine if the director wants to kill his character like how Isaac literally came to JJ and KK's office and begged them to not kill Poe.

If this is Rian or even Trevorrow or whoever's film, I wouldn't have to worry that much because no one could be able to worship Rey like JJ. The ending for Rey in the leaks is extremely marvelous. She has the glittery last name, she is the hope of the galaxy, the new jedi master and the famous *super* heroine who could defeat the emperor alone and restore the balance to the force, and most importantly, she has the 40-year-old legacy of Star Wars brand in the palm of her hand. And of course It's isn't far-fetched and pure garbage if JJ wants to sideline Kylo as soon as possible in the final showdown against the most famous villain of Star Wars universe. Come on guys, just genuinely ask yourself, you know that JJ could go that far, don't you?

I can't do anything to make this mess better, all I can do now is pray that Ben won't go out as an underdog and become a joke for people for millennia just like Jar Jar. JJ please, I know Disney spies are lurking in this forum too, please spare us like how you spared Poe, and reconsider a better ending for Ben please.

OrionStars wrote:@special_cases
@Saracene
@californiagirl

Yeah, Adam didn't lie, Kylo is no Vader, and Reylo might mirror Adam and his wife's love story in some ways, but we all know that Adam is a professional actor, he will never cry, sulk and whine if the director wants to kill his character like how Isaac literally came to JJ and KK's office and begged them to not kill Poe.

If this is Rian or even Trevorrow or whoever's film, I wouldn't have to worry that much because no one could be able to worship Rey like JJ. The ending for Rey in the leaks is extremely marvelous. She has the glittery last name, she is the hope of the galaxy, the new jedi master and the famous *super* heroine who could defeat the emperor alone and restore the balance to the force, and most importantly, she has the 40-year-old legacy of Star Wars brand in the palm of her hand. And of course It's isn't far-fetched and pure garbage if JJ wants to sideline Kylo as soon as possible in the final showdown against the most famous villain of Star Wars universe. Come on guys, just genuinely ask yourself, you know that JJ could go that far, don't you?

I can't do anything to make this mess better, all I can do now is pray that Ben won't go out as an underdog and become a joke for people for millennia just like Jar Jar. JJ please, I know Disney spies are lurking in this forum too, please spare us like how you spared Poe, and reconsider a better ending for Ben please.

@OrionStars

I'm sending you a DM with spoilers, when the spoiler reviews drop after the review embargo ends with Bendemption and Reylo HEA.

I do think if Kylo just falls into a pit and is never even mentioned again they're gonna get mocked like GoT and their Cersei and Jaime die by bricks thing lol. It's definitely not an ending fit for a character like Kylo. Even if they want to mirror Han's death, the falling in a hole bit wasn't really the relevant part. He had a moment with his son, there was the whole tragedy of what Kylo did, Leia got a reaction, Finn and Rey were pissed and the whole fight with Kylo was in big part fueled by grief and anger for Han from all sides.Then there was a whole other movie of Kylo's regret.

Kylo apparently dies and then force ghosts, some of which are his family, decide to help Rey, he's never mentioned again according to leakers and his family's force ghosts happily and proudly look on Rey and her friends.It's really lame and insulting for actual Skywalkers.


I think Rey should beat Palpatine, I don't have an issue with that and it makes sense that if Kylo killed Snoke and got that big moment in TLJ, she should have this one. But I do think they're going over the top with Rey being a bloodline Palpatine and self proclaimed Skywalker who was loved and mentored by all the Skywalkers and got all their cool stuff and she's the balance of the force all by herself. Sounds like a self insert fanfic tbh which is fine for fanfic but not the ending of a 9 movie saga imo.

I can’t get over how outrageously bad these leaks are, and the trailer essentially reinforced a lot of them. God help us. Kylo gets clowned on the whole movie and gets a s*** ending (or does he? He doesn’t even get an ending lmao). If you thought the Rey Mary Sue stuff was bad before, after this... woof. If JJ was trying to succeed in getting people to hate her, he succeeded. Don’t even get me started on Jannah Calrissian (they’re both black, so they have to be related!) If the movie plays out like these leaks, the backlash and reaction is gonna be something else. GoT 2.0 right there. If LFL really thinks they can go forward with these snoozeworthy Resistance characters, especially after this, they’ve got a massive reality check coming.

The approach to Kylo is honestly baffling to me though. It’s not like he’s some unpopular character. He’s the only Skywalker left and we’re in a post-TLJ world, where he’s considered the consensus best thing about the ST by a wide margin. Reylo was also incredibly popular with GA and critics, the most loved aspect of a divisive movie. It makes perfect business sense to lean into these things. Adam Driver’s stature has risen massively and his acting career has really taken off. He’s going to be nominated for his second Oscar very soon. It’s not like he’s some no name actor. The whole thing is so bizarre.

People are really gonna be looking back on Rian’s chapter more favourably, as they should have been in the beginning.

And IF there is any truth (or form of truth) with the leak recall that

-The Snoke comic indicated Ben can save himself from a fall, using the Force. So, either it was included in the comic to show how abusive Snoke was (throwing Ben off the cliff) - and IF the leak is truthy - AND as a form of foreshadowing

-He is presented too much as a prince, a hero...plus the Ben to Ren comic series is before and after TROS release. He will live, or become an immortal god (I believe if he 'dies', Rey will 'die' - it's living, immortal living, or death for both of them, not death for one, living for the other). Although, if there is a death scene, it will be temporary, Beauty and the Beast style. Spoiler for Maleficent 2, yet even that includes a death scene, and coming back to life because of love (in two phases, actually).

I really think it's a more useful (and fun) practice to try and piece together what the leaks are most likely telling us and what they most likely are not rather than take them as 100% fact.

nickandnora wrote:I really think it's a more useful (and fun) practice to try and piece together what the leaks are most likely telling us and what they most likely are not rather than take them as 100% fact.

@nickandnora

Thank you! Yes! !!!!!

Especially, it is my understanding that even JW is feeling uncertain about them, or aspects of them?

Saracene wrote:@OrionStars I hope it's not going to happen, but with JJ at the helm I can see things reverting back to the TFA mode where it's all ridiculously lopsided in Rey's favour, she gets to win every fight, doesn't really need anyone's help etc. Especially when the promotional material is really pushing her as the new hero that rises.

But even in this case, there's still absolutely no need to get Kylo 100% physically out of the scene by tossing him down the pit. He can just get mortally wounded by Palpatine or even killed period with a force lightning or what have you. Then Rey could finish off Palpatine by her own and have the last emotional goodbye scene, or cry over Kylo's body etc. Rey just staring sadly down the pit in the end doesn't really have the same oomph. It's like, why would you retread the ending of RoTJ and deliberately exclude its emotional highpoints like Luke and Vader's last conversation?

@Saracene

It's incredible what these leaks are doing to me, I'm starting to cheer for Kylo having a dignified death. Yes, my favourite character in this new trilogy (and probably my favourite character in the whole saga) and, here I am, wishing him to have a good death, because this "falling down in the pit to never be seen" is so vile, so humiliating, that I refuse to believe this is true.

I still remember the first time I saw him, in TFA, freezing that blaster shot, I remember the reaction at the cinema, everybody was ohhing. And now, these character, the only real heir of the original heroes, will just fall down the pit. I refuse!

Kylo Rey wrote:I can’t get over how outrageously bad these leaks are, and the trailer essentially reinforced a lot of them. God help us. Kylo gets clowned on the whole movie and gets a s*** ending (or does he? He doesn’t even get an ending lmao). If you thought the Rey Mary Sue stuff was bad before, after this... woof. If JJ was trying to succeed in getting people to hate her, he succeeded. Don’t even get me started on Jannah Calrissian (they’re both black, so they have to be related!) If the movie plays out like these leaks, the backlash and reaction is gonna be something else. GoT 2.0 right there. If LFL really thinks they can go forward with these snoozeworthy Resistance characters, especially after this, they’ve got a massive reality check coming.

The approach to Kylo is honestly baffling to me though. It’s not like he’s some unpopular character. He’s the only Skywalker left and we’re in a post-TLJ world, where he’s considered the consensus best thing about the ST by a wide margin. Reylo was also incredibly popular with GA and critics, the most loved aspect of a divisive movie. It makes perfect business sense to lean into these things. Adam Driver’s stature has risen massively and his acting career has really taken off. He’s going to be nominated for his second Oscar very soon. It’s not like he’s some no name actor. The whole thing is so bizarre.

People are really gonna be looking back on Rian’s chapter more favourably, as they should have been in the beginning.

@Kylo Rey

I applaud you. I agree with every word you wrote. Kylo is Adam f*cking Driver, for Gods sake. This guy is being nominated for everything he plays, they just can' throw him down the pit.

Kylo Rey wrote:I can’t get over how outrageously bad these leaks are, and the trailer essentially reinforced a lot of them. God help us. Kylo gets clowned on the whole movie and gets a s*** ending (or does he? He doesn’t even get an ending lmao). If you thought the Rey Mary Sue stuff was bad before, after this... woof. If JJ was trying to succeed in getting people to hate her, he succeeded. Don’t even get me started on Jannah Calrissian (they’re both black, so they have to be related!) If the movie plays out like these leaks, the backlash and reaction is gonna be something else. GoT 2.0 right there. If LFL really thinks they can go forward with these snoozeworthy Resistance characters, especially after this, they’ve got a massive reality check coming.

The approach to Kylo is honestly baffling to me though. It’s not like he’s some unpopular character. He’s the only Skywalker left and we’re in a post-TLJ world, where he’s considered the consensus best thing about the ST by a wide margin. Reylo was also incredibly popular with GA and critics, the most loved aspect of a divisive movie. It makes perfect business sense to lean into these things. Adam Driver’s stature has risen massively and his acting career has really taken off. He’s going to be nominated for his second Oscar very soon. It’s not like he’s some no name actor. The whole thing is so bizarre.

People are really gonna be looking back on Rian’s chapter more favourably, as they should have been in the beginning.

@Kylo Rey


Unfortunately, I think they do, I've mentioned this before, it's obvious that LFL is extremely too delusional and arrogant they think they will get a bright future with the snore-fest of the resistance friends, so they displayed "the trio" at the celebration, then they expanded Poe's story by giving him a love interest to eat up the screen time of TROS, while put Ben and the Skywalker family's tragic past in the comic that nobody gives a flying kriff except die-hard fans like us. The future is so freaking bleak, may the almighty God have mercy on us.

@OrionStars

I truly hope you are exaggerating. Everything is going to fine, because in the end, this is only a movie. I worry that taking it this seriously causes an opposite side of the coin with dudebros and antis.

At the worst, we all need to try on clown outfits, and test clown makeup for allergy reactions.

That's the true worse case scenario. The best is cheering and dropping our popcorn with excitement because Reylo and living Bendemption is unfolding before our eyes.

@OrionStars Adam is a professional actor, but so is Oscar, and so is Mark, far older and more experienced, who very much whined and sulked for years over his part in all three movies of the ST. The whole cast (excluding Mark) seems so honestly and genuinely happy, not in a fake way. In contrast to, as I mentioned a while back, the GOT S8 cast who didn't hide their dread and overall unhappiness, even though it was one of the biggest media events of the decade.

The trailer practically oozed hope, all the music themes were in major key. Including Kylo's, going all the way back to the teaser. Why do people think JJ and LF hate Kylo, that they only like Rey and no other character? Where is this coming from? Didn't Reylo fandom believe Kylo was meant to represent JJ himself on some level? They know what makes money, and it's Kylo.

I still don't understand why one leaker is more important than literally everyone and everything else, it's like the only SW that exists is what this guy says. He may have info, but he's not the end all be all of the franchise, nor should he be the center of the world. These kind of reactions and this amount of attention are exactly why people leak in the first place.

JJ got ripped apart for too much repetition in TFA, so the way he's going to address that is... doing the same thing again? I guess he's been lying when he said he had more freedom, took more risks, deviating further from the OT. I don't pretend to know everything about this movie, and I'm not sure why anyone should be that certain about that many things.