Exploring TROS & The Future of Star Wars...

I don’t know about villains and I guess it depends from your point of view because anakin as darth Vader wasn’t a hero but what I was getting at was if anakin is “resurrected “ in world between worlds then it’s very likely Ben is too. Watch Ahsoka and you’ll know what I’m getting at as the fandom has gone ballistic this week :
https://www.inverse.com/entertainment/ahsoka-episode-4-anakin-skywalker-world-between-worlds
With the world between worlds in live action now anything is possible as it’s the doorway to all time and space - multiple timelines, multiverses etc

All I want for Xmas...is Ben back.

AhsokaTano wrote:Hey all long time no posting . Without giving too much away I think after that Ahsoka episode this morning we can safely say Ben Solo will be back but his resurrected body will be different . I honestly think they are going for a Jesus type resurrection where he was corporeal , could eat , could still be touched etc but he could vanish or walk through walls at will ( Ben solo means only son remember?). I definitely think this after the latest Ahsoka episode . But Rey might have to meet him halfway ie in world between worlds /no space . Watch ahsoka episode and you’ll know what I’m getting at .

Also I watched Disney’s elemental and believe it even more about Ben solo’s resurrection - do you guys remember that picture Lucasfilm posted where Rey and Kylo were in water and the sun was behind ? Two elements Fire and Water just like elemental - we argued that Kylo was the fire element and Rey the water because that’s what would be on earth (women
Associated with water and men fire ) but what if Star Wars is a mirror world to us ? A reflection of our world ? We’ve had lots of reminders this is so throughout Star Wars films , tv and literature . This would mean Ben/Kylo is water element and Rey is the flame element ? Water can not be destroyed- it can transform and change -it’s a liquid , gas , particle , wave - it has so many “ masks” or shape shifting abilities as it were ( like the masks of God Joseph Campbell and the force if we think of the force as being an element like water that gives life - the living water of the force ).This too would tie in with Kylo/Ben as the hades element or lord shiva or cosmic force ( and Rey as Persephone , Parvati and living force element ).So it ties it neatly into this .

In elemental you think the water boy sacrificing himself is gone ( sorry forgotten his name ) but he’s not and he’s just “ hiding in the shadows “ for a bit ( this is very Loki too who can hide himself by shapeshifting into something that won’t be acknowledged like a piece of furniture or tree in background of a scene )before he regenerates and comes back to claim his fire girl ( sorry forgotten their names in the film ). It’s very Star Wars complete with butterflies flying around the scene to show a transformation is about to occur ..

Anyway just thought would bring some hope here . Remember George Lucas and Dave filoni said if you want to understand Star Wars you need to understand myths, legends , religion - is all interconnected into Star Wars .

Editing to post the picture I was alluding to above that we discussed at length here on this forum about water and fire element regarding Kylo and Rey :

@AhsokaTano
Hiya! I always enjoy hearing from you and your continuing hope that Ben will return!
Though I don’t really dig into the intricacies of SW these days and I don’t follow all you’ve said (my fault not yours!) but I get your general message and applaud you. Thanks for sharing :-)

I think when it comes to Ben returning I remain no longer invested, but if it happens in future I could see myself getting invested again, but probably not at the level I was before TROS.

When I hear ideas about Ben Solo returning from world between worlds, my mind jumps to - Luke and Leia returning, and the god twins taking over the storytelling… they are safe storytelling and merch fodder. Ben is a risk. Ben is polarising. ( )
And in the current society, I can see DLF going for the twins…
I would not be surprised if the twins being a force dyad is introduced to canon. Heck, it may have already been how would I know lol.
And this would neutralise any of the uniqueness of Reylo… which DLF have run away from. (All IMHO)

I really really wanna know what RJ thinks of the current state of the saga. Can someone please shout him a few drinks and ask him? Lol!  

RJ got so much flak but I think he might have been the only one involved in the ST that actually 'got' Star Wars.

I have to say this, although it breaks my heart - I'm no longer invested in 'reylo' post TROS largely because that film made Rey so unlikeable. If they intend to keep TROS Rey 'canon', then I'd rather Ben find some decent, non judgemental love interest.

There is one thing that has added to my ire....on another forum one poster actually found a clip from a different version of the ending, where Rey shows sadness when identifying herself as Rey Skywalker. DLF instead chose to change it to the 'Stepford Smiler' Rey.

Which once again, makes me really wonder...just what on earth were they playing at?

I would love it if they brought Ben back, but at this point I just have so little faith left in DLF.  Anything is possible and time will tell, but I just don't know.  It just seems that they don't want to bring him back.

@motherofpearl1
Do you have a link to the different version of the ending?  What was it from?  Some behind the scenes footage or something?

Here it is, it's very brief, and I think it IS a deleted scene...hope you can see this:
https://twitter.com/TheFirstOkiro/status/1635610268716654592?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1635610268716654592%7Ctwgr%5E96dd4ea8fb8138d49b831fb354898d86be7b95c9%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fs9e.github.io%2Fiframe%2Ftwitter.min.html1635610268716654592

motherofpearl1 wrote:Here it is, it's very brief, and I think it IS a deleted scene...hope you can see this:
https://twitter.com/TheFirstOkiro/status/1635610268716654592?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1635610268716654592%7Ctwgr%5E96dd4ea8fb8138d49b831fb354898d86be7b95c9%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fs9e.github.io%2Fiframe%2Ftwitter.min.html1635610268716654592

@motherofpearl1

Thanks.  I was able to view it.  Very interesting.  I wonder what other alternate/deleted scenes there might be.

Couple of interesting rumours...
Marvel movies are considering 'resurrecting' Robert Downey Junior's Tony Stark and Chris Evans's Capt. America. Great if they do....but why the turnaround? Maybe they have learned from the Loki series about not killing off the most popular characters. Sounds familiar?

And...this is from the FICM, and probably FAF. But the rumoured title of Rey's new film is: Star Wars: A New Beginning.

As I say here, in all likelihood FAF, but it does speak volumes of how DLF have treated Lucas. 'We want SW but not the Skywalkers.'

On another forum...interview with director Matthew Vaughan, who wants to 'reboot' the original trilogy.
Is nothing sacred where Disney is concerned?

Ah..Snow White. Of course not.

Yeah I heard about the new beginning title ( maybe more of a working title ?)and the two lead kids( young adults )  who look like they could be Rey and kylo’s children to be honest .










Ben solo is meant to be returning in the new film but not Poe  and they don’t know about Finn because of the strikes cutting off the talks about returning . Take with pinch/grain of salt .
Also that quote about Adam driver is from Shawn Levy interview a few days ago - Levy is directing a Star Wars film too and now the rumour mill has got going that it’s about Kylo/Ben.
https://variety.com/2023/tv/news/shawn-levy-stranger-things-season-5-star-wars-movie-interview-1235764827/

How many bets if Ben returns it's as a 'memory'? Or a FG.

I'm sorry, but this film doesn't appeal much to me at the moment.

I thought the two kids were from the earlier debunked rumors, maybe from the unused Lindelof script for the Rey movie? I doubt it even has a full script yet. Only the Bad Robot movies' scripts leaked, not the straight LF ones. I don't anticipate a major role for Poe, a glorified cameo at most. I wouldn't be surprised if Jedi Finn is in it, he's even in the Lego specials, because John might not come back otherwise. I hope Rose gets a better role, especially with a WOC as the director. Kelly came back for the Lego stuff and a cartoon Disney movie, so there can't be that much bad blood.

Meanwhile I saw Harloff whining for no more sequel stuff after the Rey movie so we can move on to other things unless it's really good, and that there shouldn't be a Kylo movie because he's dead. Boy is he going to hate any movie or show that includes him, even if they don't go for the resurrection/world between worlds route. I don't think he realizes how popular he is. If there's no Ben as the love interest, I don't think Rey is getting a new one, not even Finn. The foreign SW social media accounts love to push Reylo posts now, though that probably doesn't mean much.

I said I wouldn't watch Ahsoka, and I've heard mixed things, but maybe I will eventually because I hadn't expected a crossover movie at the end of everything, guess I have to now? I get the sense Filoni kind of does whatever he wants now? It's weird that he's getting a movie when it's Favreau who's the experienced filmmaker, not him, but Dave's the LF employee and their chief creative head honcho.

Found this via a link from the FICM, may be a load of old moonshine but...
https://collider.com/new-star-wars-movie-daisy-ridley/

motherofpearl1 wrote:Found this via a link from the FICM, may be a load of old moonshine but...
https://collider.com/new-star-wars-movie-daisy-ridley/

@motherofpearl1



Thanks for sharing

Daisy has been getting more interviews lately, this one, another from Collider, told her about the bestselling Reylo fanfic books are she thinks it's really neat!

Nice to know she approves...it saddened me that she came out with those 'Rey doesn't need a boyfriend' and 'I can't get behind it' comments pre TROS: this makes me even more certain that she was 'got at'. I've got Hurricane Wars in my Xmas stocking.

Sorry to double post
https://www.cbr.com/daisy-ridley-star-wars-movie-filming-start-date-revealed/#:~:text=A%20new%20production%20listing%20for,Ridley's%20untitled%20Star%20Wars%20movie.

Adam talking about Kylo's arc, how it wasn't intended from when he signed on. I presume he's referring to the Jedi Killer, before he was even the Solo kid, because he came on to the ST in like 2013. Or Trevorrow's version of Episode 9 where he was one-dimensionally evil.

https://twitter.com/adamdriverarchv/status/1734652656893764064

californiagirl wrote:Adam talking about Kylo's arc, how it wasn't intended from when he signed on. I presume he's referring to the Jedi Killer, before he was even the Solo kid, because he came on to the ST in like 2013. Or Trevorrow's version of Episode 9 where he was one-dimensionally evil.

https://twitter.com/adamdriverarchv/status/1734652656893764064

@californiagirl

Wow.  Just, wow.  I mean, after reading Colin's script I guess I shouldn't be surprised that that was the original plan, but still.  That's how they intended the saga to end when they were first planning the ST?  With Kylo/Ben dead and no other siblings or cousins to continue the Skywalker line?  How depressing.

It explains some things.
I was convinced that the reason they had Kylo kill Han was because they wanted we, the audience, to hate him. Therefore he is chosen to be the one to kill off the OT's most popular character. That's why Abrams wasn't happy when Harrison - and Adam - insisted they have the scene where Han strokes his son's cheek included in it. Quite a few critics hailed this scene; one described it as turning the  most violent scene in the film into the most tender.
But Rian, bless him, didn't want that. He saw the chemistry between Kylo and Rey, and he also recognised what a fine actor Adam is at being able to show so much emotion just in his expression. This is why Rian removed the mask and wrote Kylo so conflicted...not an anti hero, but an 'anti villain.' And why Adam became determined to show the character's humanity.

Sadly, it confirms I was right with my suspicion that DLF wanted to rid SW of the Skywalkers, and that Rey was conceived as their replacement for Ben. Supplementary material only emphasises this. 'Rey has a special bond with Chewie'. 'Han recognised his heir.' Why Rey gets the legacy sabre, the Falcon, the shining Force ghosts of Luke and Leia bestowing their blessings on her (someone pass the sick bag, please).

But what it doesn't explain is...why? Why on earth did Disney want to do this with Star Wars? Buy it purely to destroy it?
The only answer I have to that question is to further this horrible 'woke' agenda that's infected this company: 'women don't need men, and women are superior to men'. They have turned Lucas's beautiful space opera into a vile piece of toxic anti male agenda. They aren't interested in entertaining us anymore, but giving us a lecture.

I don't know if anyone else feels the same way but this is not what I, as a woman, want. I want interesting complex male characters. I want romance.
I want happy endings. And I'm sorry DLF, but killing off the last Skywalker after villainising him so you can replace him with a 'perfect' female simply because 'women are better than men' ...doesn't make me happy.
Why not simply have Rey as a Skywalker? And have the 'Jedi Killer' non Skywalker, Darth Maul - ish villain?
Because they wanted the Skywalkers gone forever. And their new characters - Rey and Finn (Poe was supposed to be killed off) to replace them.

Rian Johnson, the man the Fandom Menace vilified, was the only one who truly 'got' SW. His film was not only beautifully crafted, superbly acted and stunning to look at, it was the only one to truly have the heart and soul of what SW was originally about - a message of hope.
And they essentially retconned it.
I hate this. I'm sorry, but I really hate this. How the Finn/Rey lovers on the FICM will adore this. I'm sure they'll be first in line to see the forthcoming Rey film, especially if Finn gets to lay his pipe in Rey's garden. (funny how the movers and shakers at DLF didn't object to Boyega's behaviour on twitter, considering their rampant 'men are toxic' agenda.)

I disliked DLF before...but this has now made me loathe them. I will never spend my money on anything Disney has to offer again. This revelation has crystalllised what I had begun to believe was true, and increased my contempt for this odious company a thousandfold.

They stink.

Just have to add this: I still read the FICM despite my loathing for most of the posters as they often have interesting links and are constantly updated, but never in a million years would I have dreamed I'd agree with one of its most prolific Kylo haters...but I do.
I can't post a direct quote but what he said was this:

'So, their plan really was to trash the OT3 and make the only child of the three of them into an unredeemable dark lord. Good luck with that Rey film, you're going to need it.'

Which sums up exactly how I feel about DLF now. I feel so sorry for George Lucas, they obviously wanted his franchise but not his characters. But, they could have set the sequels centuries after the end of ROTJ, started afresh with new characters and left the Skywalker Saga alone.

Instead they deliberately destroyed the entire family. Spiteful, petty and downright cruel.

I've just seen that Adam Driver interview and... Wooooowww! @motherofpearl1 I completely agree with everything you said! Star Wars is about hope and redemption! Turning the only child of the legacy characters into an outright villain isn't that! It's Jacen Solo all over again! Which I'll point out that is more proof that JJ is a talentless writing hack. Legends already did it. But man, it once again proves DLF had no idea what they were doing! If this is what they wanted, then Rey should have been the Skywalker child after all. I have no idea why she wasn't! I think what also slightly hurts is once again it's been proven that we wasted all our time and energy over nothing. It was never intended and we were wasting our time. Not only that, but it also feels like we went through all the vicious mocking from all corners for nothing once again too.

Can we please stop spouting conspiracy theories about the "woke agenda"? That's a thing the fandom menace and their weird right-wing ilk invented so they could be mad at people all the time to act like they're oppressed. What actually happened is more important vs what they said they would do 10 years ago. I honestly don't think JJ and others involved knew how depressing that version of it would have been for many, and I think it's part of the reason Trevorrow was fired.

They probably wanted to hook people back with old characters/families but ultimately get them to look at the new, shiny characters instead to keep an active franchise (notice the recent non-Skywalker focus of most SW media right now). I don't think they needed to kill Ben for that to work! Not enough people are into Rey Skywalker for that to work either.

Someone pointed out it's kind of like how the "Sam" character, later Finn, was made a stormtrooper late in development, but that change wasn't really reflected in the writing around the character. With Kylo, the Jedi Killer character later got turned into Ben Solo but they didn't alter enough of the writing around him for that to make full sense either.

I'd love if they brought Ben back in the new Rey movie, or at least, like, acknowledged him, that would be great, but who knows, the thing is a total mystery. I genuinely don't think they will pair her off with Finn, they know there's not enough demand for it. The SW social media accounts, especially the foreign ones, love posting Reylo, Kylo, and Ben Solo, because they get engagement.

Add on: I know franchises didn't work like this in the 90s, but SW was big enough they could have continued it as extra films or shows, it would have relieved the stress of bringing back the OT3 while introducing new people the ST had, so much to cram in 3 movies. People had way too much baggage and headcanons and weird EU stuff built up over 32 years. George didn't care about the EU, ignored it to make a different Boba Fett origin, and he hated Mara Jade! Now they're in an odd place where they have to cherry pick Legends like how Thrawn is in live-action at this same point in the timeline now as he was before.

@"Californiangirl" it's not right wing to notice and call out these things that has been happening in Western media for a while now, and that is male characters being portrayed as weak, stupid and a complete shadow of their former selves and placing female characters on unreachable pedestals with no personality except this bizarre "I'm strong and I need no man with masculinity good, feminity bad" message. This is what happened with Star Wars and many other franchises like the MCU. Luke and Han's character developments from the OG trilogy were tossed out of the window in the sequels, and Rey was put in their place with a lack of development and charm and relevance to the story. Personally I'm rather tired of it. There's no way Luke - the one person in the whole galaxy who believed Darth Vader was good - would have ever tried to kill his own nephew. Han would never have run away from Leia and his failures as a parent after his growth to believing in the rebellion's cause. Let's not even get into Leia sensing and accepting her child would fall to the dark side and die, as well as dropping the Princess title because obviously Princesses can't be leaders, only generals. Yes, some people take it to the extreme, but it's people of both sides that do it.

I do agree with you here. The new marketing for SW now involves characters from the OG trilogy. Nowhere do you see any of the ST characters and you only really see some of the TV characters to advertise Disney plus. The only new characters I can think of that stand with the OG characters are Mando, live action Ahsoka and of course Baby Yoda, cuz Disney knows they are the most popular. But the rest haven't really gelled with the general audiences. The only ST character you see advertised now and then is Kylo. I think Disney only realised what a big mistake they had made after the receipt TROS as he was the only ST character that resonated with audiences.

Yes they get clicks on SM but only for that. I don't know but I think they will try and please everyone again by saying something stupid like Rey would have liked to have been with Ben but it wouldn't have worked. But that being said, I think they will try and appease the current SW fandom and they unfortunately don't like Reylo, as well as dishing out their current "I'm a strong masculine woman who doesn't need a man" trend. Time will tell.

I don't really have an issue for past heroes being flawed, I believe part of the influence Rian mentioned was the King Arthur legends where a bunch of the characters kind of suck in the later parts of their life and still have room for growth.

Given that female representation still isn't very good or widespread in the grand scheme of things, and most of the directors, writers, and executives are men, I don't think women outpowered anyone in a supposed gender war, or that there's a successful anti-man agenda. One of the problems is that many people making media, both women and men, are allergic to romance, or at least the studios are. Even the weird entitled men of fandom spaces don't have women as part of their fictional preferences in the way they used to. Like I get there used to be romance in everything and it wasn't always good or treated its characters well, but we're well past needing a cultural detox from it. It's just weird now, everyone is so obsessed with everything being plot-focused. Hence the dumb "no s*x scenes in movies" discourse. Ugh, I hope Favreau sticks to the Din Djarin/Bo-Katan thing, but it's dang near impossible to get even basic romance through a big studio or franchise.

LF (I think pushed by Disney) keeps the content train rolling so they emphasize all the new things, at least on social media. But all the studios are pulling back on making as much new stuff now, it wasn't financially viable. They want theaters (hence announcing SW movies with directors and Daisy at celebration) and non-streaming home video as bigger revenue streams again. They're even putting shows like Mando and Loki on blu-ray. There was even a rumor (now shot down) they were going to turn the last season of Mando into a movie, as a panic move, even though they were already in pre-production on 8 episodes, to make money and get it out faster because of the strike delay, and assuage the cranky people who don't like the show being episodic, not long-form, or having too many plot threads.

SW merchandise is mostly a combo of OT and Mando/Grogu. I was at Disneyland in September with family (we're all California people), half the SW merch I saw people sporting was Grogu, no surprise there. High Republic got bigger during the strike, but that's still for the hardcore fans. There are things that are well-reviewed, namely Andor and Visions, even Bad Batch, but they're not the A-list banner shows for Disney+.

Oh, and Filoni got promoted to Chief Creative Officer at LF, which I thought he already was. Turns out his promotion from a few years ago was actually called Creative Executive Director, which is somehow different? I think it was the mid-level version of what he is now. Corporate jargon sure is something. Best case scenario is less of his amateurish writing and directing, his better stuff in SW was when he oversaw a team of other people and didn't direct/write most of it. He likes TLJ and Rian, dunno if getting him back to do a show would be in the cards, but Rian said he'd be down to come back last year. Mando and what I've seen posted of Ahsoka online have leaned more into the ST buildup and TLJ throwbacks, interesting. Might just be a quirk.

If there is one thing that saddens me, is that reylos defended the ST. We stood up for them, refused to see Rey as an over powered Mary Sue, and constantly argued with the Fandom Menace that they were being anti feminist trolls. And ultimately....they were vindicated by TROS. We were the ones left with egg on our faces - not them.
They said the ST ruined SW. We said it did not. Now we are forced to accept that it did. Which really hurts.

Regarding 'right wing' attitudes, I was accused of racism and perma banned from the FICM because I said this:

'The ST should have been about Ben Solo.'

Unfortunately I said it in a thread dedicated to Finn, who is super popular over there. One fan in particular loathes and detests Kylo to such a degree it's almost funny. He also adores Finn to such a degree he was even arguing that he was also an 'adopted child' of Han and Leia, along with Rey, and that 'Kylo was a supporting character' - supporting to Finn. They firmly believe Finn was 'male lead' and anyone who disagrees with them is a racist - especially Kylo fans, as liking him is 'putting the white character before Finn as Black male lead'.(exact words of one of them). And they call Kylo stans 'fanatics'!

The irony is...they are pretty nasty to Kelly Tran, one even describing her as little more than a 'not Rey' love interest for Finn.

At the end of the day...the lot of them were proved right. But I will never accept that it was 'ok' for DLF to turn the last Skywalker into a remorseless 'baddie'. It wasn't so much as slap in the face as a steamroller for George Lucas, and a terribly depressing way to end the story for those who like me, loved SW for the Skywalker/Solos. Making Rey a Palpatine was the final insult.

There ARE of course, fans of Rey who are excited about her forthcoming film, but I suspect they are in the minority compared to Kylo fans. The results of the 'popularity' contest on DLF's own website proved that. As did the critics. Adam's performance was highly acclaimed by all of them and I vividly remember one saying whenever he was on screen in TROS the film was at its best.

People complain about the PT. But, they didn't break our hearts the way TROS did. You could still watch and enjoy the OT. ROTS ended on a note of hope. TROS had a Palpatine literally standing on the Skywalkers' graves. It's pretty obvious now why Ben was immediately ignored after fading into the Force. They wanted us to forget he'd ever existed. The future was Rey - hence the 'blessing' from the FGs of the real Skywalkers.

This is purely personal...but I now absolutely can't stand her character. They have made her into a smirking, superior prig. Or, as one reviewer described her, a 'creepy Stepford smiler.' Supplementary material, rather than changing my view of her, has only endorsed it.
The new 'trio' can't hold a candle to the old. Mark, Harrison and Carrie had a unique chemistry that will never be matched. Disney had a diamond in Kylo/Ben and Adam Driver - twice Oscar nominated - and refused to see it. They wanted a female protagonist. And they botched her.

Good lord I didn’t think that JJ Abrams could sink any lower in my eyes, but this news did it. He’s nothing but a superficial hack who has no idea why good stories work. Vader goes from a stone cold villain to a more conflicted villain, so if we just flip it it’s screenwriting gold… he’s got zero clue what made Vader’s story in the OT so powerful. A good person who turns evil is compelling, a villain who redeems himself is compelling; a villain who just gets more evil is so boring I never even considered it as a real possibility for the ST, silly me.

I think they genuinely believed that as long as Golden Girl Rey took over the legacy it didn’t matter if the family ended with an unredeemed villain. I have to admit, though their response was often crude and unpleasant, the rude fanboys’ reaction to Rey was basically on the money.