Official TROS Spoilers discussion

Saracene wrote:I don’t think they ever had a clear idea of what they wanted the ST to be. It seems like they only decided after TLJ that actually, they wanted to conclude a nine-part story, oh and “Skywalker Saga” is a thing now though it was never a thing before. I think that making Rey a Skywalker was partly a way to try and justify her protagonist status in what they decided at the eleventh hour was now a “Skywalker Saga”.

@Saracene

Totally agree with you. They only started to sell the conclusion of Skywalker Saga package after TLJ. It's such a pity what they did with the ST. Really.

The ironic part being that it didn't feel like an ending to the saga at all. If anything, it just kind of undid or ignored the whole thing. George called it the Skywalker saga, but I doubt he's happy with TROS. Feels like they used the term more as a marketing scheme than to accurately describe the film.

californiagirl wrote:I don't think they intended Rey to literally become Rey Skywalker from the beginning. Having an idea that was kicked around a couple times, like Palpatine coming back, doesn't mean they actually decided upon it before TROS. And Rey Palpatine was most likely a late add. I'm not sure about Ben dying either, it seemed like they didn't decide either way until TROS either, except wasn't it supposed to be Vader's arc in reverse? Like all the setup from TFA and TLJ got discarded because they decided the audience didn't notice or care, so just let Terrio & Co. do whatever they want.

I think Kasdan, who has been entirely MIA in recent times, was the one who decided upon the Reylo stuff. With him, Rian, and Kiri Hart gone, and Iger specifically telling JJ he had to make certain types of fans happy and letting him ignore the SG, what came before didn't really matter anymore.

But didn't Adam say he was excited to talk about SW openly when it was over, except he's said virtually nothing since TROS came out?

Give it 15 years and someone, probably with a very different group of people running the LF/Disney show, will try to save the ST characters/era.

@californiagirl

I think they changed Ben/Kylo’s trajectory to something Adam was no longer excited about. Either that or they kept his story the same more or less but packed in so much GARBAGE around it and made it the one decent part of an otherwise embarrassing movie. Adam Driver doesn’t get Oscar nominations for being the one good thing in a bad film— he knows how to choose good directors and good scripts. He took a massive pay cut to work with Scorsese— they all did, if I remember rightly. He agreed to this blockbuster trilogy which sounded good and started good, with Rian Johnson upping the ante in the middle— and then the whole thing just went south at the end. If they ever manage to get him back for anything in Stat Wars, I’ll bet it would be no more than a single film in which he gets the script and the director confirmed in advance.

If it was bringing back Ben and they got Johnson, Filoni and Kasdan involved, I'd be happy with just one movie, as long as they didn't wait twenty years, as I'm no spring chicken.

If there's one thing I get angry about, they killed off Kylo/Ben to appease the haters - yet it didn't appease them. The hatred goes on, venom spewed all over social media, spite aimed at Reylo fans.
"Kylo violated, tortured and assaulted Rey'" - presumably Luke violated Ben when he read his mind without permission, Rey stabbed Kylo when he was unarmed, Poe tried to shoot him in the back on Jakku, but hey, that's cool because they're HEROES!
"Kylo is a mass murderer" - when did he mass murder. Hosnia was all Hux
"Kylo executed innocent unarmed civilians on Jakku". Actually....I noticed how the camera lingered on the weapons those 'unarmed' civilians had.

They have him because the script tried to present him as sympathetic. But it's completely pointless to continue with the hate - because they won. Kylo/Ben has been killed off, erased from the end of the film, erased from marketing, erased from everything SW.
It's been given to their darling Rey. She is now The Skywalker. She's been given everything that was Ben's, from his name to his life. SW's official Forums even have her picture alongside that of Han, Luke and Leia.

They've done everything to promote this usurper as his replacement.
Making her a Palpatine only adds insult to injury.

I loved Rey when we first met her. I now despise her character. I'm even having trouble reading Reylo fic at the moment, because I can't believe she loved Ben any more. Her casual dismissal of his sacrifice, her happy acceptance of being given his place in the story, both on screen and on paper, the fact that the novel stresses he died because saving Rey was all he was good for.....
It leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I'm sorry.

It seems pretty obvious to me that Disney/LF allowed (or perhaps even required) J.J. and Terrio to ignore the story group (Filoni et al). I'd guess they consider the story group more for the geeky crowd that watches Clone Wars / Rebels / Mandalorian, and I think they consider the saga to be for a different audience and therefore subject to different regulations.

I don't think this was true of TLJ or TFA, or at least it wasn't really perceptible. One could imagine TFA / TLJ fitting within the Story Group's guidelines. But for IX, it becomes apparent that Disney favored overriding or ignoring the Story Group in order to bring about the international blockbuster they needed to deliver.

Filoni and the story group would have made sure episode IX connected the dots and explained things in a consistent way that made sense. Rogue One did that. Solo did it. The final season of Clone Wars does that. Mandalorian does it. I think it's pretty clear that TROS was not bound, as these other projects were, by the Story Group, therefore, TROS is not canon - it's "Legends".

This article is interesting.
http://thefilmexperience.net/blog/2020/2/14/the-decline-of-skywalker.html

motherofpearl1 wrote:This article is interesting.
http://thefilmexperience.net/blog/2020/2/14/the-decline-of-skywalker.html

@motherofpearl1

This article is from feb, but I’m glad I read it. I felt she summed it up perfectly just focusing on the story for Rey and Ben and how very off TROS was. Thanks for sharing..
“I don’t know her” rofl that’s a great ending to the article!

I'm actually sad that I have so little affection for Rey, I really liked her post TFA.

I think it's pretty clear that TROS was not bound, as these other projects were, by the Story Group, therefore, TROS is not canon - it's "Legends".

@fuhry:
I SO appreciate your aproach.  

Perhaps we all should embrace it.

I just want to point out that when AD said he was happy to talk about SW, he very likely meant if he was asked. And right now, there's no reason for anyone to ask him because he doesn't have new movie out that would lead to interviews. If he talks about it it will be in an interview following whatever movie of his release.

If there's one thing I'd love is if he ever made another film with Harrison, they have amazing chemistry.
It really makes me laugh whenever some tool says he doesn't look anything like him - he looks more like him than one of his real son's!

So the "release the Snyder cut" people finally got their way after several years of that nonsense. It's whatever has a large contingent of loud, social-media centric entitled male fans backing it that gets catered to the the end, much like parts of TROS. Not sure I trust the current people to do an alternate cut of TROS, if there's even the footage to do it with, which I question. I just want to know what went down in production and reshoots, and I don't expect to be told that any time soon, let alone get another cut of a film that might not be salvageable.

TheI'd be happy if Ben lived, but I suspect they love the revolting haters too much.
Lord, the things they've said....
I honestly don't want to be a SW fan if it means I'm one of them.

motherofpearl1 wrote:This article is interesting.
http://thefilmexperience.net/blog/2020/2/14/the-decline-of-skywalker.html

@motherofpearl1

Great article. Man, it's sad what they did with the movie and with the characters. We often complain about Ben Solo's fate, but, ugh, look what they've done with Rey.

californiagirl wrote:So the "release the Snyder cut" people finally got their way after several years of that nonsense. It's whatever has a large contingent of loud, social-media centric entitled male fans backing it that gets catered to the the end, much like parts of TROS. Not sure I trust the current people to do an alternate cut of TROS, if there's even the footage to do it with, which I question. I just want to know what went down in production and reshoots, and I don't expect to be told that any time soon, let alone get another cut of a film that might not be salvageable.

@californiagirl

Even if something went down in production and reshoots, I don't know how they could have saved that script. Everything in that movie was awful. We only have to look at the dialogue, even from the unimportant scenes, those which didn't suffer reshoots. The movie was awful, reshoots or not.

It's still surreal how BAD this movie is. From editing to photography, from script to acting. Few scenes that really great (all with Ridley, Driver and Ford) just highlight how embarrassingly amateur this production looks. And even great scenes are great mostly because actors gave their all to make these scenes work.

There was a person on Twitter (not SW fan) one week ago who said that their mate did minor work for production and he was completely shocked by chaos and desperation. That person was seeing major changes every day, without reasonable logical obligation to change something so big last minute.

I think this is what's truly unforgivable for me as a SW fan.
I was never a big fan of the TV critic Barry Norman, but years ago I remember him describing that the SW films were 'beautifully made'.

For all the bad press about the PT, the story was terrific. Lucas showed the hypocrisy of the Old Republic, how it ignored slavery, and let injustice flourish, and the flaws among the Jedi order, which demanded an almost inhuman detachment among its members.
TROS has no story, no plot, no heart, and no soul. The entire film comes across as little more than one part 'lets kill off all Lucas's characters' and one part 'strong women don't need boyfriends' bull****. They create a tragic, vulnerable protagonist, who desperately needs love and understanding, and a lonely, awkward protagonist looking for belonging. They practically shoved it down our throats that these two needed to come together - then at the last moment cruelly destroyed it.
If it was to appease Kylo haters, then it doesn't work. They despise him still. If it was to make Rey fans happy, that hasn't worked either. Rey fans have been arguing for five years that her character isn't a Mary Sue, only for the filmmakers to turn her into one. They've betrayed those who defended these films to appease those that hated them. Even worse, they've pandered to vile trolls who slated Kelly Tran for being Asian.
They have no excuse for turning the last film in the Skywalker saga into an unsatisfying incoherent mess. Rian Johnson crafted an epic in two years. And mad as I am at JJ, TFA was an enjoyable, promising start whose good points over came it's bad ones.
I agree 100% with those who refuse to accept it as canon, because it completely undoes everything that went before. Ben's redemption, although the strongest part of the film, is rushed and his fate ridiculous. The way his character is erased from the last part is unbelievable. Rey is no longer a human being but some kind of invincible superheroine. Luke is a completely different person, Leia character assassinated, Lando wasted. Scenes that should have been powerful and emotive instead come across as farcical and frankly embarrassingly awful. The script is utter garbage.

This film is a disaster. And the only way they'll salvage it is to completely remove it from canon.

As bad as TRoS is, I’m not sure what “removing it from the canon” would look like, exactly. Without TRoS, all the storylines left after TLJ are left hanging and you have an unfinished story. How would you expect DLF to conclude it instead and salvage the whole thing? Re-do the final movie from scratch? Well that’s never going to happen. Leave the ST just hanging in the air forever with no conclusion and only two-thirds of the story complete? This is not a situation like say the Terminator or Alien franchise where every movie is pretty much self-contained and there are no dangling threads to resolve from movie to movie.

Fans are free to ignore TRoS, but I’m afraid that what’s done is done.

Saracene wrote:As bad as TRoS is, I’m not sure what “removing it from the canon” would look like, exactly. Without TRoS, all the storylines left after TLJ are left hanging and you have an unfinished story. How would you expect DLF to conclude it instead and salvage the whole thing? Re-do the final movie from scratch? Well that’s never going to happen. Leave the ST just hanging in the air forever with no conclusion and only two-thirds of the story complete? This is not a situation like say the Terminator or Alien franchise where every movie is pretty much self-contained and there are no dangling threads to resolve from movie to movie.

Fans are free to ignore TRoS, but I’m afraid that what’s done is done.

Finish off the story in comic or book format.
That's the only way.

Saracene wrote:As bad as TRoS is, I’m not sure what “removing it from the canon” would look like, exactly. Without TRoS, all the storylines left after TLJ are left hanging and you have an unfinished story. How would you expect DLF to conclude it instead and salvage the whole thing? Re-do the final movie from scratch? Well that’s never going to happen. Leave the ST just hanging in the air forever with no conclusion and only two-thirds of the story complete? This is not a situation like say the Terminator or Alien franchise where every movie is pretty much self-contained and there are no dangling threads to resolve from movie to movie.

Fans are free to ignore TRoS, but I’m afraid that what’s done is done.

@Saracene
I agree, I can why the Babu Frik treatment for TROS would be tempting!



But... This doesn’t work for me... it’s not imho going to get a do-over and this is why it’s so heartbreaking. It’s final.

motherofpearl1 wrote:

Saracene wrote:As bad as TRoS is, I’m not sure what “removing it from the canon” would look like, exactly. Without TRoS, all the storylines left after TLJ are left hanging and you have an unfinished story. How would you expect DLF to conclude it instead and salvage the whole thing? Re-do the final movie from scratch? Well that’s never going to happen. Leave the ST just hanging in the air forever with no conclusion and only two-thirds of the story complete? This is not a situation like say the Terminator or Alien franchise where every movie is pretty much self-contained and there are no dangling threads to resolve from movie to movie.

Fans are free to ignore TRoS, but I’m afraid that what’s done is done.

Finish off the story in comic or book format.
That's the only way.

@motherofpearl1

I can’t really see a niche novel or comic book outweigh a big blockbuster movie seen by millions of people. Movies will always be the prime canon.

Maybe, but the Kylo Ren comic sold like hotcakes, and the Clone Wars series has been both popular and successful.
Nothing of course will match a blockbuster movie, but this blockbuster has been an unmitigated disaster. And by producing a n alternate in a different media, it might help the damage control.

@motherofpearl1
I get the impact of TROKR and Clone wars, but they still fall into the time line - very little is ignored or revised - so it's easier. Any post TLJ or TROS alternative take in comics/novel or show format will still be niche, and easy to ignore as true Canon. Its also a cop out way of Disney/ Lucasfilm addressing their mismanagement of the story and franchise.

I think the only way to move on from TROS is a fully fledged Ep. 10, that shifts the narrative perspective of that false '' happy ending'' of ep. 9. For me it also means that things in TROS that felt off or were contradictory to the films before needs to be redressed by reframing. Ben has to be resurrected or transplanted back into the narrative for it to actually be the conclusion of the Skywalker Saga.  I still hold that the biggest problem is that they folded the entire Star Wars universe and all its iconography around Rey in an illogical way. From TFA in fact - but TROS was the worst as it also ripped all her interiority away at the same time. Somehow everything's about her, but also nothing is about her.   People writing Rey is what I'm scared about...

@Saracene This is why I had to rewrite it!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qplRZaFnM3VCeIQ8NQ4VDUieg4EXz8Kw44Mg2vnKITg/edit?usp=sharing

That's my canon now. Though I keep making minor changes to it. .

Im happily writing a Ben/Rose fanfiction, it's probably awful, and I'd never publish it but, it's amazing therapy!