Official TROS Spoilers discussion

motherofpearl1 wrote:Maybe, but the Kylo Ren comic sold like hotcakes, and the Clone Wars series has been both popular and successful.
Nothing of course will match a blockbuster movie, but this blockbuster has been an unmitigated disaster. And by producing a n alternate in a different media, it might help the damage control.

@motherofpearl1

They may be popular for what they are, but in a big scheme of things they’re still for a limited audience only. I haven’t watched or read either, and I’m a big Kylo fan, but it’s just not the media I’m into. I can’t see DLF trying to rewrite their canon series ending for a small audience of fans while the vast majority who don’t care about the SW books, comics and animated TV series - GA, casual SW fans and mainstream media - will always see TRoS as canon. As Darth Snoopy said, the only way to try and correct anything would be a proper cinematic (or live TV series) follow-up, which to be honest I don’t see happening any time soon.

I can't see anyone playing Kylo other than Adam, who perfectly reasonably wants nothing to do with DLF any more.

I seriously don't care if it's removed or not from "canon". It's done, and even Disney and LF just prefer to ignore it. If there is no EPX, what will change with removal?

I don't remember any case where something big like the movie was officially removed from any canon universe. It's a bad decision from business POV, Disney is obsessed with stocks so... They can only ignore some major things if they will be making next episodes.

There won't be removals from canon nor there should be any. Snyder Cut was something entirely different. It was the cut made before Whedon was asked to take over when Snyder pulled out due to family tragedy.

The closest I can think of is the erasing of Legends, but that was the EU, not the movies. If anything, part of the reason of getting rid of it was to free the movies, but what happens when a movie itself is the problem? Certain long-running franchises will undo or ignore much in themselves (Terminator, Halloween). It would be really hard to make an EP 10 that exists largely to undo the damage of TROS, it might dig the hole deeper, but in 15 years, people might like seeing Adam and Daisy again and not mind.

Though if it turns out there really is some earlier version, or one without Rey Palpatine or something, I can envision people demanding it, regardless of if it's unfinished or not even necessarily good, like the Snyder cut thing. I've already seen people joking about releasing TROS: The Coherent Cut. I could at least potentially seeing LF ignoring the reality of TROS at some point. The fact they seem to want to avoid the ST and that entire era and make very little content about it, or even acknowledge it, would already seem to be a certain amount of damage control.

Someone posted on another forum a picture which I found rather curious. I don't know if it's an actual still from the film, or concept art but it showed Rey on Tattooine, and Kylo's shuttle next to the Falcon.

Whatever, I think a lot of people, more than reylos, still just can't accept they've not only made such a bad film, but ended the entire saga in such a dreadful way.

You can't deny, to quote Lor San Tekka, that the villain really has won. His descendant lives, the Skywalkers are gone, and what's to prevent him coming back yet again. No amount of name change for Rey will alter that.
It's such a slap in the face for GL.
I bet he privately wishes he'd never set eyes on Disney.

Alex Kane, a Reylo who is a freelance writer, got removed from the list of contributors on the SW website he'd written on for 3 years, because he openly disliked TROS. Never mind he was still very much in SW fandom and very positive about most SW things. Yikes.

Also, one Reylo who was at the TROS premiere was re-sharing some memories and pictures, which is kind of hilarious/depressing.











This is all confusing combined with things like Alex getting fired. Like most of LF lowkey kind of hates TROS, but some of the leadership is really spiteful and defensive about it, what cognitive dissonance. Anyway, the Mando docuseries is keeping me afloat, but this new bomb sort of killed the goodwill many fans had from TCW a few weeks ago.

So JJ skipped the primere after party? Interesting.

@Birdwoman Given his mostly-absence from interviews and press, and anything public post-TROS, I'm not surprised.

Also, there's an awful interview going around with the costume designer. He didn't want to design formalwear for a smaller, curvier woman like KMT. Also whines that TLJ destroyed the Kylo mask. Geez, just when you think the parade of inane, unprofessional things is over, nope, there's more y'all.

That interview isn’t new, it’s from December 2017. Kaplan compared working with JJ and working so long with him to come up with the mask and then Rian’s decision to destroy it as “going from Obama to Trump.” YIKES

@Kylo Rey I hadn't seen it until now, I think because I was actively avoiding at least some stuff just before and after TROS came out. It swept the web today for some reason, it seems most people hadn't seen it in the chaos of the post-film release. And the Trump comparison, yeek. And he apparently doesn't understand that costumes can serve story purposes and don't exist solely to look cool. Like, that's your job, dude.

Also, this is ostensibly from the same guy who accurately leaked TROS so long before release. I still question the existence of any of these alternate endings, seems a little wish fulfillment, but just thought I'd throw it here because.

@californiagirl - Thanks for sharing! you are on a roll with finding the good stuff today! 'good' as in interesting!

I was avoiding all spoilers before TROS so I find references to leaks confusing. Has anyone done a timeline/summary of events leading up to the release of TROS? what was leaked, speculated on etc? I'm not going to go back through spoilers threads here it would be too much time, and too much heart break but I am curious about what leaks were doing the rounds.

This is just my own thinking, but someone working in costume design complaining about the mask being lost in the second movie is representative of what is at the heart of why TROS failed, why LFL isn't acknowledging this and why this is likely will continue.

Kaplan put a lot of work into designing a mask that looked cool and then it got destroyed in the next movie?
It was the concept that was valued, not the story. [this is a red flag no?]
If you cared about the story - you would think it cool that your design was central to the story of Kylo Ren/Ben Solo, that would include using the smashing of it to tell a story.
Kaplan is not new to making movies, and would know that costume design is always in service of telling the story... but.. In TROS? Or maybe I should say, in the ST? this has become askew.
This is exactly what JJ and CT did: A collection of cool concepts, cool moments, cool visuals don't make a great story.
And because these creators are all more closely invested in their cool contributions, they cannot fathom how any fans could take issue with the movie. And, this is why no one was able to change the path TROS was on and save it before release. Sound like there might have been an element of group think that went on too and that's why quality staff left earlier in the project..
LFL screwed it up because there were too close to it, and too connected to their own cool ideas, and not the story.
They will be unable to recognise or accept they screwed it up because they continue to be too close to it, too connected to their own creative babies to see that the story didn't make sense.

Directors, writers, costume designers: you are all storytellers. Or you are supposed to be.. but in TROS - you were not.
Uh oh. soap box alert! lol

As an aside, I was not against the return of the mask in it's new state in TROS - like many things in the movie, had it been significant to the story telling and explained it could have been seriously cool.. it still looks cool to me. but.. it's very empty now. without meaning. Remember the days when we speculated about the released images of the repair of the mask? and how it would show Kylo was doubling down on his persona egged on by the KOR?
What we got: no explanation, one year later he puts it on. Why? who knows, but hey, it looks cool.

@californiagirl I just read about Alex Kane situation and I'm speechless.

They really want to get rid of us, huh? Pretty much telling after they bent over for alt rights and misogynists and made the whole movie for them but when it comes to us - "let's kill bad PR by getting rid of Reylos and all these nasty female fans"

LOL, I think we can arrange it.

Anyway, I hope Alex will be find a great job. He has an amazing SM presence, a lot of ppl love him and know him so I hope he will be okay.

californiagirl wrote:@Birdwoman Given his mostly-absence from interviews and press, and anything public post-TROS, I'm not surprised.

Also, there's an awful interview going around with the costume designer. He didn't want to design formalwear for a smaller, curvier woman like KMT. Also whines that TLJ destroyed the Kylo mask. Geez, just when you think the parade of inane, unprofessional things is over, nope, there's more y'all.

@californiagirl

Too bad a smaller, curvier woman named Carrie Fisher wasn’t still around to put his head on straight.

special_cases wrote:@californiagirl I just read about Alex Kane situation and I'm speechless.

They really want to get rid of us, huh? Pretty much telling after they bent over for alt rights and misogynists and made the whole movie for them but when it comes to us - "let's kill bad PR by getting rid of Reylos and all these nasty female fans"

LOL, I think we can arrange it.

Anyway, I hope Alex will be find a great job. He has an amazing SM presence, a lot of ppl love him and know him so I hope he will be okay.

The Kylo hatred on other forums isn't pretty but I take heart from the fact that an official SW poll made him the most popular character at a whopping 85%, when even Rey couldn't manage more than 5%.

I am a bit disturbed at some comments though, as they are directed more at Adam - one comment described him as 'overrated' (two Oscar nominations), and the poster I shall not name said he only got the part because he was a 'privileged' white man. I suspect they're peeved because their favourite characters weren't as memorable or as fascinating as Kylo/Ben - even cutting his part down and erasing him from the last part of the film couldn't change that!
But pettiness from fans is one thing - pettiness from a big corporation like Disney/LF is a different kettle of fish, especially against their own staff. There is going to be consequences if they continue to treat their staff like this.

Meanwhile, I have a happy fantasy of GL buying LF back, and making a one off about the return of Ben Solo. Directed by Rian Johnson and starring Adam Driver and Kelly Marie Tran.

Meanwhile, I have a happy fantasy of GL buying LF back, and making a one off about the return of Ben Solo. Directed by Rian Johnson and starring Adam Driver and Kelly Marie Tran.

THIS!!!!
I want to believe.

All wish fulfilling fantasy aside, I genuinely believe the three of them will work together again some day.

I don’t get why they’re doubling down on such a s*** movie that was widely panned, to boot. Didn’t stick their neck on the line for TLJ, a critically acclaimed movie, but will try to quell dissent over a movie that many many more disliked. What a weird company

unicorn wrote:

Meanwhile, I have a happy fantasy of GL buying LF back, and making a one off about the return of Ben Solo. Directed by Rian Johnson and starring Adam Driver and Kelly Marie Tran.

THIS!!!!
I want to believe.

@unicorn

I could get on board with this lol. but I would wish to see Daisy and Adam together again..

Kylo Rey wrote:I don’t get why they’re doubling down on such a s*** movie that was widely panned, to boot. Didn’t stick their neck on the line for TLJ, a critically acclaimed movie, but will try to quell dissent over a movie that many many more disliked. What a weird company

@Kylo Rey

Kylo Rey your avatar is beautiful! Just had to say that.

Why are they doubling down? I'll have a go answering this...
Just my 2 cents and I speak with zero authority here. lol. I've not spent much time thinking about star wars these days, but how things could have transpired as they did, and continue to today - is an interesting thing to ponder (at least it is for me!).
I think there are a couple of reasons for doubling down.
1) You have the non creative money people who don't care about the creative side, just the money, and if they want: they can conclude TROS was profitable rather than admit lost profits, so who cares.
2)You have the creatives who became very attached to their contributions to the final product, who believe they did the best work of their lives with TROS. Surrounded by others who think the same thing, and pushing out or silencing anyone who disagrees.
To criticise TROS is taken very personally because they are so invested, thus - they double down in their defense and can't accept any criticism at all. Or, they avoid having to answer questions or explain things. They double down so they can maintain the belief that what they put their heart and soul into was great work (and avoid the pain of believing otherwise).  

Kylo Rey asks why didn’t they stick their neck on the line for TLJ, a critically acclaimed movie, but they try to quell dissent over a movie that many many more disliked? Here's my theory..
1) I think the money oriented people were looking toward the third movie to unite and bring in the money, and the profits from TLJ were great so no need to defend it. I don't think the money people are defending TROS- they are pretty silent. or am I mistaken?
2) I think the lack of defence of TLJ and uncompromising defence of TROS is informative when it comes to the creatives for sure. I think this is about the ST and TLJ's position, being bookended..
My theory is, the creatives on TLJ (other than Rian J and Ram B) were not as personally invested in TLJ. Why? I think it was viewed more as an RJ/ RB project and they didn't like the direction they took the story in. I think like the loud fan boys, they felt TLJ retconned what JJ and they had done in TFA. and they were personally invested in TFA. So it's like RJ and RB retconned their own personal contributions.. sooo they took it personally.
When TROS came along, and JJ was gifted back the chance to take control of the final film, in their eyes they must have been giddy to have the opportunity to set things right. To put things back where they belong (e.g. to bring back the cool mask because it shouldn't have been destroyed in the first place). RJ broke the code! He was supposed to be replicating the original trilogy. He shouldn't have killed Snoke, that should have been in the third film! This view of TLJ further fed their personal, not at all objective, investment in TROS..

So, when TROS was a terrible movie, they couldn't see it, couldn't hear it - people are threatening their precious creative baby, they will defend!!!! The threat to them is criticism, when it should have been producing a terrible movie, but they never thought it possible to produce a terrible movie because they are awesome, and star wars is awesome. If they ever stopped defending and asked themselves what's going on I think it would be quite painful for them... This is going to take a lot of distance for them to ever have a chance to see it.

If I were RJ and RB now, I'd be seriously looking at my contract to ensure I have complete control of my star wars trilogy.. including all ancillary content.. and if not - I'd be scrambling to get out.

@DeeBee I agree with your thoughts.

Additionally I presume that they brought JJ back with hope that he will do bigger BO than TLJ. TLJ BO was great but not perfect and now it's obvious that they were obsessed with BO numbers and brand image. They miscalculated hard when they thought that ultimate fan service to Entitled Fans and "JJ's course from TFA" will make situation better.

Seriously, George Lucas couldn't change situation for better with ROTS and he has a great vision\trajectory for the story. They were hoping that JJ - who never created a great story by himself in his life - will right the course? Are they so blind and don't understand that TFA's sucess wasn't DETERMINED by JJ involvement? There are like 20 major additional factors.

They should have respected themselves and chose to stand by TLJ as the movie and Rian's vision whom they chose... themselves.

Instead they decided to trash Rian's movie and vision to push forward their great creative vision that was changing every week on THE MOVIE SET. Imagine the arrogance?

That's what you get by cowardice and greed. Embarrassed director doesn't go to the after party, zero interviews after, the editor and co-writer are defending the movie like school kids in the press, "Please, please, you don't understand, we had no time, Rian's movie was X and Y, the dog ate our homework!"

Looks like we can let go of this movie. lol Maybe it's the quarantine.

My thoughts...

californiagirl wrote:@Kylo Rey I hadn't seen it until now, I think because I was actively avoiding at least some stuff just before and after TROS came out. It swept the web today for some reason, it seems most people hadn't seen it in the chaos of the post-film release. And the Trump comparison, yeek. And he apparently doesn't understand that costumes can serve story purposes and don't exist solely to look cool. Like, that's your job, dude.

Also, this is ostensibly from the same guy who accurately leaked TROS so long before release. I still question the existence of any of these alternate endings, seems a little wish fulfillment, but just thought I'd throw it here because.

@californiagirl

Maybe they did have a different ending, but, honest question, a different ending would have made the movie better? No, the movie is bad despite the [terrible] ending. That ending was just the nail in the coffin.

DeeBee wrote:(...) Kaplan put a lot of work into designing a mask that looked cool and then it got destroyed in the next movie?
It was the concept that was valued, not the story. [this is a red flag no?]
If you cared about the story - you would think it cool that your design was central to the story of Kylo Ren/Ben Solo, that would include using the smashing of it to tell a story.
Kaplan is not new to making movies, and would know that costume design is always in service of telling the story... but.. In TROS? Or maybe I should say, in the ST? this has become askew.
This is exactly what JJ and CT did: A collection of cool concepts, cool moments, cool visuals don't make a great story. (...)

@DeeBee

Honestly, it's appalling that they are still talking [and complaining] about a mask. A prop, for god's sake! Were they so fond of the mask that they couldn't let it go? I confess I wasn't a big fan of the return of the mask, because it reached its purpose in TLJ. The mask was just a metaphor about Kylo Ren and the things he was hiding of. Or so I thought, I don't know anymore, maybe he was meant to be just a cool bad villain with a cool mask, who knows?

So I saw this TOPPS card and they did use masked Kylo for their "dyad" card. That's pathetic. I mean, they don't care about their characters, why should I?

DeeBee wrote:Directors, writers, costume designers: you are all storytellers. Or you are supposed to be.. but in TROS - you were not.
Uh oh. soap box alert! lol

THIS. Scenography, scenery, photography, costume, all these things exist in the movie to help the scrip tell the story. TROS was a feast of empty cool scenes that did tell us nothing, I talked with people who liked that movie (because it was shining, and grand, and noisy) and they don't even remember the plot. lol

You know, I find it cute that we still talk about the movie. At this point I can't say that I really care. I'm disappointed for sure, but I keep coming here because I'm curious and because people here are so insightful. But the true must be told, they shited on the movie [and the whole trilogy] and nothing will change that.

The funny thing is, on another forum the poisonous hatred for Kylo Ren is as vicious as ever. Killing him off to appease them has done diddly squat. All it's done has upset those of us who loved the character and defended Rey and the films. I was especially surprised to discover one particular poster whose comments are especially vile, is the same age as me - mid fifties - as I'm not the most mature of people but I honestly thought he/she was a kid, the way they were going on. I got an angry outburst for daring to accuse Han and Leia of bad parenting!

Regarding the ending.... you're right in saying it wouldn't have made TROS a good film. Rey would still have been ridiculously over powered, for one thing. But at least it would have ended the entire saga on a happy note. Ben lives, Rey finds her belonging with him and any future children, the Skywalker bloodline continues, Han's sacrifice was not for nothing. And they can deny it all they like, nothing will convince me that the ending they chose was the one intended. Too many things are 'off'.
The weird cinematography around Ben's death scene.
Absolutely no dialogue for him post the conversation with Han.
No FG.
Rey's utter lack of grief.
The 'copy and paste' image of Rey on Tattooine.
And finally....the sudden delay of the tie in novel, and the withdrawal from sale of the original art book. I have the art book, and there is no concept art of Ben's death or Rey on Tattooine.

I think we keep talking about it because weird and/or bad stuff keeps coming out about it. Or people who say it's bad get ousted. Plus it's in the context of how it affects SW, which is obviously a big franchise that is still going, and even has some good things in it. I hope they learn their lesson long term, TROS has done them no favors at all.

I think the repercussions will still be going on for years. Many fans have washed their hands of the franchise now, and because of the pandemic they've lost a heck of a lot of money on the theme parks. Which is so very ironic, as I suspect that they tossed the Skywalker saga away to focus on Galaxy of Adventures et al.

californiagirl wrote:I think we keep talking about it because weird and/or bad stuff keeps coming out about it. Or people who say it's bad get ousted. Plus it's in the context of how it affects SW, which is obviously a big franchise that is still going, and even has some good things in it. I hope they learn their lesson long term, TROS has done them no favors at all.

@californiagirl

It's just so maddeningly terrible that it's hard to stop thinking about it! And if it's terrible to us, I'm sure there's no shortage of folks on the inside that saw the train wreck happening real-time.

motherofpearl1 wrote:I think the repercussions will still be going on for years. Many fans have washed their hands of the franchise now, and because of the pandemic they've lost a heck of a lot of money on the theme parks. Which is so very ironic, as I suspect that they tossed the Skywalker saga away to focus on Galaxy of Adventures et al.

@motherofpearl1

I think they definitely had other priorities, and "Make a great movie" was low down on the list. The more I think about it, it's even hard to say whether J.J. and Terrio truly just blew it, or whether they were hamstrung so badly by corporate guidelines and time constraints that they failed to rise above it.

I mean, given the difficulty they had coming up with a suitable script, and Carrie's death, et cetera, the fact that they didn't delay the movie's release tells me all I need to know. I could totally imagine that J.J. started with the following:

1. Use Carrie footage
2. More of an action role for Oscar Isaacs
3. No ghosts
4. New, non-interracial romance for Finn
5. New droid, 2 new costumed humans, 2 new aliens (for merchandising)

Heck, for all we know, they may even have been pressured to include masked Kylo.

I think most movies have flaws, but if those flaws add up to where the trance is broken, I think it's hard to pinpoint what pushed it over the edge.

I wonder. If a) Palpatine's return had been explained, b) Rose hadn't been 'disappeared' and c) Ben had lived, would I have enjoyed the movie, despite its other flaws? I think I might have.