So what is "Reverse Anidala" and how do you see it playing out in the next two movies?

snufkin wrote:

Birdwoman wrote:After TFA came out, I was showing my 9 year old son how Anakin became Darth Vader.  Found some footage from ROS on youtube.  It was right after he force choked Padme and Obi wan was walking down the plank that it hit me.  I think they are going to do a reverse Anakin/Padme with Kylo and Rey but they are both force sensitive and it will be a better story.  I can't even tell you why or what made me think that at that time.
Now that we own the prequels, that love story had potential with a different writer....not sure how I feel about GL as a director either.

@Birdwoman

The PT seems like it was very much a personal passion project for GL, but would've done better with different writers. And from what I've read, maybe it works out that while he had some valid reasons for turning on his family and joining their enemy, part of it had to do with hubris and gaining power. The totally selfish reasons it sounds like were the motivation in the PT. So maybe how it works out is that he gives all of that up at great personal cost because his relationship with her becomes more important. ANd not even that it's b/c they're in a relationship or that it'll win her over, but that it'll hurt her directly (I think Snoke's been after her since childhood too) and that becomes more of his mission than Renprener or whatever.

@snufkin

If we though the TFA novelization was bad wait for the RTS one by Matthew Stover.The novelization itself was actually great but he depicted Anidala in a very unhealthy and abusive way, things weren't good before he becmae Vader but I swear Anakin sounded like a total psycopath after he turned to the DS and the Mustafar scene in the novel is actually worse than in the movie:

''Anakin,not here.It's too risky.''
''No,here!Exactly here.''He drew her against him again again,effortlessly overpowering her halfhearted resistance.''I'm tired of the deception.Of the sneaking and the lying.We have nothing to be ashamed of!We love each other,and we are married.Just like trillions of people across the galaxy.This is something we should shout,not whisper-''
''No,Anakin.Not like all those other heroes.They are not jedi.We can't let our love force you ot of the Order-''
''Force me out of the Order?he smiled down at her fondly.''Was that a pun?''
''Anakin-''He could still make her angry without even trying.''Listen to me.We have a futy to the Republic.Both of us-but yours is now so much more imporant.You are the face of the Jedi,Anakin.Even after these years of war,many people still love theJedi,and it's mostly because they love you,do you understand that?They love the story of you.You're like something out of a bedtime tale,the secret prince,hidden among the peasants,growing up without ever a clue of his special destiny-except for you it's all true.Sometimes I think taht the only reason the people of the Republic still believe we can win the war is because you're fighting it for them-''
''And it aways comes back to politics for you'',Anakin said.His smile had gone now.''I'm barely even home,and you're already tryign to talk me unto going back to the war-''
''This isn't about politics,Anakin it's about you.''
''Something has changed,hasn't it?Thunder gathered in his voice.''I felt it,even outside.Something has changed.''
She lowered her head.''Everything has changed.''
''What is it? What?''He took her by the shoulders now,his hands hard and irresistibly powerful.''There's someone else.I can feel it in the Force!There is someone coming between us-''
''Not the way you think,''she said.''Anakin,listen-''
''Who is it?Who?''
''Stop it.Anakin,stop.You'll hurt is.''
His hands sprang open as though she had burned them.He took a steady step backward,his face suddenly ashen.''Padme-I would never-I'm so sorry,I just-''
He leaned on the pillar and brought a hand weakly to his eyes.''The Hero With No Fear.What a joke...padme,I can't loose you.I can't.You're all I live for.Wait...''He lifted his head,frowning quizically.''Did you say us?''
She reached for him,and he came to meet her hand.Rising tears burned her eyes,and her lip trembled.''I'm...Annie,I'm pregnant...''

What about Obi-Wan?''
She looked stricken.Pale and terrified.It made him love her even more.
He shook his head.''Many of the Jedi have bene killed.''
''But...''She started out at the rivers of tarffic crosshatching the sky.''Are you sure?It seems so...unbelievable...''
''I was there,Padme.It's all true.''
''But...how could Obi-Wan be invovled in something like that?''
He said,''We may never know.''
''Outlawed...,''she murmered.''What happens now?''
''All Jedi are required to surrender themselves immediatly,''he said.''Those who resist..are being dealt with.''
''Anakin-they're your family.You and the baby.''
''How can all of them be traitors-?
''They're not the only ones.There were Senators invovled as well.''
Now, finally, she looked at him.fear shone from her eyes.
He smiled.
''Don't worry.I won't let anything happend to you.''
''To me?''
''You need to distanse yourself from your...friends...in the Senate,Padme.It's very important to avoid even the appereance of disloyalty.''
''Anakin-you sound like you're threatening me...''
''This is a dangerous time,''he said.''We are all judged by the company we keep.''
''But-I''e oppsoed the war,I opposed Palpatine's emergency powers-I publically called him a threat to democracy.''
''That's all behind us now.''
''What is?What I've done?Or democracy?''
''Padme-''
Her chin came up,and her eyes hardened.''Am I udner suspicion?''
''Palpatine and I have discussed you already.You're in the clear,so long as you avoid...inappropriate associations.''
''How am I in the clear?''
''Because you're with me.Becase I say you are.''
She started at him as she if she'd never seen him before.''You told him''
''He knew.''
''Anakin-''
''There's no more need for secrtes,Padme.Don't you see?I'm not a Jedi anymore.There aren't any jedi.There's just me.''
He reached for her hand.She let him take it.''And you,and our child.''
''Then we can go,can't we?Her hard stare melted to naked appeal.''We can leave this planet.Go somewhere and be together-somewhere safe.''
''We'll be together here,''he said.''You are safe.I have made you safe.''
''Safe,''she echoed bitterly,pulling her hand away.''As long as Palpatine doesn't change his mind.''
The hand she ahd puleld from his graps was trembling.
''The Separatist leadership is in hiding on Mustafar.I'm on my way to deal with them now.''
''Deal with them?''The corners of her mouth went down.''Like the Jedi are being dealt with?''
''This is an important mission.I'm going to end this war.''
She looked way.''You're going alone.''
''Have faith ,my love,''he said.
She shook her head helplessly,and a pair of tears spilled from her eyes.He touched them with his mechanical hand;the fingertips of his balck glove glsitened in the dawn.
Two liquid gems,indescribably precious-because they were his.He had earned them.As he had earned her;as he had earned the child she bore.
He had paid for them with innocent blood.
''I love you,''he said.''This won't take long.wait for me.''
Fresh tears streamed onto her ivory cheeks,and she threw herself into his arms.''Aways,Anakin.Forever.Come back to me,my love-my life.Come back to me.''
He smiled down in her.''You say that I'm already gone.''
   

'Obi-Wan.''She smeared tears from her cheeks.''He said-he told me you turned to the dark side,that you murdered Jedi...even younglings...''
Just having gotten the words out of made her feel better;now alls he ahd to do was rest in his arms while he held her and hugged her and promised her he would never do anything like any of thta,and she started half a smile aimed towards his eyes-
But instead of the light of love in his eyes,she saw only reflection of lava.
he didn't say,I could never turn to the dark side.
He didn't say,Murder younglings?Me?That's just crazy.
He said,''Obi Wan's alive?''
His voice had dropped an octave,and had gone colder than the chills that were spreading from the base of her spine.
''Y-yes-he,he said he was looking for you..''
''Did you tell him where I am?''
''No,Anakin!He wants to kill you.I didn't tell him anything-I wouldn't!
''Too bad.''
''Anakin,what-''
''He's a traitor,Padme.He's an enemy of the sate.He has to die.''
''Stop it,''she siad.''Stop talking like that...you're frightening me!''
''You're not the one who needs to be afraid.''
''It's like-it's like-''tears brimmed again.''I don't even know whoy uo are anymore...''
''I'm the man who loves you,''he said,but ehs aid ti through clenched teeth.''I'm the man who would do anything to protect you.Everything I have done,I have done for you.''
''Anakin...''Horror squeezed her voice down to a whsiper:small and fragile,and very young''...what have you done?''
And she prayed he wouldn't actually answer.
''What I have done is bring peace to the Republic.''
''The Republic is dead'',she wishpered.''You killd it.You and Palpatine.''
''It needed to die.''
New tearsstarted,but they didn't matter;she'd never have enough tears for this.''Anakin,can't we just...go?Please.Let's leave.Together.Today.Now.Before you-before something happens-
''Nothing will happen.Nothing can happen.Let Palpatine call himself Emperor.Let him.He can do the dirty work.all the messy,brutal oppresion it'll take to unit the galaxy forever-unite it against him.He'll make himself the most hated man in history.And when the time is right,we'll throw him down-''
''Anakin,stop-''
''Don't you see?We'll be heroes.the whole galaxy will love us,and we will rule.Together.''
''Please stop-Anakin,please stop,I can't stand it...''
He wasn't listening to her.he wasn't looking at her.he wa slooking past her shoulder.
Feral joy burned from his eyes,his face was no longer human.
''You...''
From behind her,calmly precise,with that clipped Coruscanti accent:''Padme.Move away from him.''
''Obi-Wan?''She whirled,and he was on the kanding ramp,still and sad.''No!''
''You'',growled a voice that should have been her love's.''You brouhgt him him here.''
His eyes were full of flame.
''Anakin?''
''Padme move away.''There was an urgency in Obi-Wan's vocie that sounded closer to fear than Padme had ever heard from him.''He's no what you think he is.He will harm you.''
Anakin's lips peeled off his teeth.''I would thank you for this,if it were a gift of love.''
Trembling,shaking her head,she began to back away.''No,Anakin-no...''
''Palpatine was right.Sometimes it is the closest who cannot see.I loved you too much,Padme.''
He made a fist,and she couldn't breathe.
''I loved yout too much to see you!To see what you are!
A vail of red descended on the world.She clawed at her throat,but there was nothing there her hands could touch.
''Let her go,Anakin.''
His answer was a predator's snarl,over the body of its prey.''You will not take her from me!''
She wnated to scream,to beg,to howl,No,Anakin,I'm sorry!I'm sorry...I love you..., but her locked throat strangled the truth inside her head,and the world-veil of red smocked toward black.
''Let her go!''
''Never!''
The ground fell away beneath her,and then a white flash of impact blasted her into night.
'Don't make me kill you,Obi-Wan.If you're not with me,you are against me.''
''Only Sith deal in absolutes,Anakin.The truth is never balck and white.''He rose,spreading empty ahnds.''Let me take Padme to a medcenter.She's hurt,Anakin.She needs medical attention.''
''She syas.''
''Anakin-''
Anakin'shad sputed a bar of blue phasma.
Obi Wan signed.He brought out his own lightsbaer and angled it ebfore him.''Then I will do what I must.''
''You'll try,''Anakin said,and lept.

Padme also trusts Obi Wan over Anakin when it comes to revealing the meeting between her and fellow Senators about Palpatine's growing power(the seeds for the rebellion are planted ruing those meetings) and belives she'll die eventhough Anakin tells her Palpatine won't kill her:

''There is one Jedi-one whom I truly know all of us can trust absolutelly...''
Her voice trailed off into apalled silence and she realzied that she wasn't talking about Anakin.
This had been all about him whe she'd started-all about her love,her need to be open with him.The pain that keeping this secret stabbed her heart at each and every beat-but when the thought had turned to trust,when it became a question of someone she knew,truly and absolutely knew,she could trust-
She discovered that she was talking about Obi Wan.

''Vote for Palpatine.Vote for the Empire.Make Mon Mothma vote for him, too.Be good little Senators.Mind your manners and keep your heads down.And keep doing...all those things we can't talk about.All those things I can't know.Promise me,Bail.Don't worry about me,''she said distantly.''I don't know if  I'll live that long.''


I think this trilogy would be about Kylo's feelings for Rey going from possesive and selfish to selfless and self-sacrafising which was the opposite that happened with Anakin.I also think it's important that despite how messed up Kylo mgiht be right now he feels compassion for Rey(which is important since it was Luke's compasison that led to Vader redeeming himself) while at least to me Anakin went from idolizing Padme(while Kylo is in awe of her I don't think he idolizes her,he was able to see her memories after all which is something much more deeper and intimate and something Anakin was unable to do with Padme) to feeling an unhealthy attachment to her.I remember reading in the novel ''The Rise of Lord Vader'' that Palpatine was aware of how unhealthy Anakin's feelings for Padme were and that's why he send him and Obi Wan to guard her in ATC.That's the oppsoite of what Snoke sences in Kylo when it comes to Rey and why he probably intended to kill her in front of him or have him do that.

Aw man, good 'ol Obi-Wan (have I mentioned again recently my <3 for Ewan McGregor).

And that's very helpful, in terms of "from possesive and selfish to selfless and self-sacrafising" in understanding what people have meant by this. Possibly also that while Snoke was able to manipulate him into killing Han because of their complicated/compromised relationship, he'll draw the line and break with Snoke over Rey.

CienaRee wrote:

Birdwoman wrote:After TFA came out, I was showing my 9 year old son how Anakin became Darth Vader.  Found some footage from ROS on youtube.  It was right after he force choked Padme and Obi wan was walking down the plank that it hit me.  I think they are going to do a reverse Anakin/Padme with Kylo and Rey but they are both force sensitive and it will be a better story.  I can't even tell you why or what made me think that at that time.
Now that we own the prequels, that love story had potential with a different writer....not sure how I feel about GL as a director either.

@Birdwoman

Yeah,like you have to wonder what would have happened if Anakin had fallen in love with a FS like him.Would he still have fallen?It would have been interesting to explore that storyline espeically since the love story  between a FS Anakin and a FS female Jedi would have been the thing that the PT would have centered around that.How cool would it have been?  Unfortunately GL dropped the ball on that one so Reylo in a sense could be what the PT's main romance could have been if it was handled by a better writer/director.

It could have been really interesting indeed. I think that if Anakin had fallen in love with a FS, they would have both left the Jedi Order. The story would have been entirely different, then.

But just to add to the posts above... thing is with Padmé is that she had a very idealized vision of Anakin. For a very long time, she was unable to see him truly as who he was because she still saw him as that sweet little boy she met on Tatooine. I mean, I don't even think she believed him when he said he slaughtered all the Sand People on purpose. One question I am asking myself is why she fell in love with him in the first place, but as I said before, Anidala was poorly done...

With Rey, it's different. During the interrogation scene, she went into Kylo's mind, and she sees him as who he is. He can try showing her a certain facade, but it's made clear very quickly that unlike Padmé with Anakin, Rey is having none of it. Rey is in no way blinded by love, nor scared, nor desperate when it comes to Kylo. She is bound to him, and he confuses her, because she wants to hate him but there are so many things in him that puzzle her. Padmé thought she understood Anakin: but she had the “Little-Ani-Goggles” on and wasn’t entirely able to understand Anakin, nor to totally see that he was slowly slipping away before it was too late.

That’s why it gets personal when she tells him: “You’re a monster” just before the snow fight. If you observe Rey throughout Han and Kylo’s confrontation, you realize that she looks hopeful. Nervous, but hopeful. Because she knows, and she saw things the audience didn’t see yet. And then Kylo goes and messes everything up.

So it’s that clear, non-idealized vision that changes everything, and what hints that Reylo might be Anidala done right.

And I agree with @snufkin above: Palpatine manipulated Anakin, but he also manipulated Padmé, to an extent. Eventually, she had her doubts about him, but it was already too late. It's different with Rey. She'll be the trigger to Kylo breaking his link with Snoke, and it will all be for the better.

Irina de France wrote:

CienaRee wrote:

Birdwoman wrote:After TFA came out, I was showing my 9 year old son how Anakin became Darth Vader.  Found some footage from ROS on youtube.  It was right after he force choked Padme and Obi wan was walking down the plank that it hit me.  I think they are going to do a reverse Anakin/Padme with Kylo and Rey but they are both force sensitive and it will be a better story.  I can't even tell you why or what made me think that at that time.
Now that we own the prequels, that love story had potential with a different writer....not sure how I feel about GL as a director either.

@Birdwoman

Yeah,like you have to wonder what would have happened if Anakin had fallen in love with a FS like him.Would he still have fallen?It would have been interesting to explore that storyline espeically since the love story  between a FS Anakin and a FS female Jedi would have been the thing that the PT would have centered around that.How cool would it have been?  Unfortunately GL dropped the ball on that one so Reylo in a sense could be what the PT's main romance could have been if it was handled by a better writer/director.

It could have been really interesting indeed. I think that if Anakin had fallen in love with a FS, they would have both left the Jedi Order. The story would have been entirely different, then.

But just to add to the posts above... thing is with Padmé is that she had a very idealized vision of Anakin. For a very long time, she was unable to see him truly as who he was because she still saw him as that sweet little boy she met on Tatooine. I mean, I don't even think she believed him when he said he slaughtered all the Sand People on purpose. One question I am asking myself is why she fell in love with him in the first place, but as I said before, Anidala was poorly done...

With Rey, it's different. During the interrogation scene, she went into Kylo's mind, and she sees him as who he is. He can try showing her a certain facade, but it's made clear very quickly that unlike Padmé with Anakin, Rey is having none of it. Rey is in no way blinded by love, nor scared, nor desperate when it comes to Kylo. She is bound to him, and he confuses her, because she wants to hate him but there are so many things in him that puzzle her. Padmé thought she understood Anakin: but she had the “Little-Ani-Goggles” on and wasn’t entirely able to understand Anakin, nor to totally see that he was slowly slipping away before it was too late.

That’s why it gets personal when she tells him: “You’re a monster” just before the snow fight. If you observe Rey throughout Han and Kylo’s confrontation, you realize that she looks hopeful. Nervous, but hopeful. Because she knows, and she saw things the audience didn’t see yet. And then Kylo goes and messes everything up.

So it’s that clear, non-idealized vision that changes everything, and what hints that Reylo might be Anidala done right.

And I agree with @snufkin above: Palpatine manipulated Anakin, but he also manipulated Padmé, to an extent. Eventually, she had her doubts about him, but it was already too late. It's different with Rey. She'll be the trigger to Kylo breaking his link with Snoke, and it will all be for the better.

@Irina de France

Awesome post.

And I completely agree with you on Rey's hopeful look as she was watching Kylo and Han on the bridge. I get the feeling that when he killed Han, she almost took at as a personal betrayal because of what she'd seen in his mind.

I also get the feeling that if Kylo had made a different decision and gone home with them, and he'd popped the "You need a teacher" proposal to Rey on the way back home in the Falcon, she probably would have said "yes" in about 3 seconds.

Excellent insights guys! If it works out that way, it sounds like the relationship of somebody who can see you clearly, both the best and worst you're capable, and can call you out/keep your accountable on your BS. Yeah, totally sounds like a straight villain-hero relationship, nothing else going on between those two ; ).

In the final scene between them, she definitely looks personally betrayed/torn. Like the split second where her lower lip trembles like she's going to start crying and then she sets her jaw (her eyes stay cold and furious throughout). It's almost like a couples' fight ("Baby I can explain if you'll just give me a second.") in that second between them with Finn as the awkward 3rd wheel.

Irina de France wrote:I posted the link in the meta thread, but I might as well repost it here since it is relevant to the topic:

http://cosette-giry.tumblr.com/post/145177289657/anidala-and-reylo-mustafar-vs-interrogation-scene

I could copy and paste, but there are quite a few pics and I'm a bit too lazy to insert them all XD

@Irina de France

Reading this has made me realize Reylo will go public in Episode VIII! It's is Anadila in reverse, no doubt. Rey and Ben falling for each other is the crux of their plot and thus the entire trilogy. Waiting until the third and final movie wouldn't make sense story wise.

If we use TFA language, RJ must finish what JJ started.

snufkin wrote:Excellent insights guys! If it works out that way, it sounds like the relationship of somebody who can see you clearly, both the best and worst you're capable, and can call you out/keep your accountable on your BS. Yeah, totally sounds like a straight villain-hero relationship, nothing else going on between those two ; ).

In the final scene between them, she definitely looks personally betrayed/torn. Like the split second where her lower lip trembles like she's going to start crying and then she sets her jaw (her eyes stay cold and furious throughout). It's almost like a couples' fight ("Baby I can explain if you'll just give me a second.") in that second between them with Finn as the awkward 3rd wheel.

@snufkin

Poor Kylo looks so hopeful there.

@slade - and she looks like she's about ready to throw a plate at his head, like it's an ugly couples' argument.

Slade wrote:

snufkin wrote:Excellent insights guys! If it works out that way, it sounds like the relationship of somebody who can see you clearly, both the best and worst you're capable, and can call you out/keep your accountable on your BS. Yeah, totally sounds like a straight villain-hero relationship, nothing else going on between those two ; ).

In the final scene between them, she definitely looks personally betrayed/torn. Like the split second where her lower lip trembles like she's going to start crying and then she sets her jaw (her eyes stay cold and furious throughout). It's almost like a couples' fight ("Baby I can explain if you'll just give me a second.") in that second between them with Finn as the awkward 3rd wheel.

@snufkin

Poor Kylo looks so hopeful there.

@Slade

I know!!!! This is really, really starting to compete with the "Marry me!" look after she catches the lightsaber as my favorite gif. He looks *so beautiful and open and young* in this gif. It's unbelievable his face there!

After Matt Martin's answers to tweets this thread is like "hey guys, remember me?"

Throne Room & Mustafar in ROTS similarities:
Ben/Anakin: "we can rule the galaxy together"
Rey/Padme: "Don't go this way. Please."

Ben/Padme: nobility/comfortable background
Rey/Anakin: scavenger/slave, desert planet background

TLJ/AotC: coming of age/teenage hormones (romp tickling in the grass, Anidala flirtation, first kiss, smut hut, bare chested/swol Kylo, hair coming down, more mature clothing & hair styles for Padme and Rey a little bit)

I know someone already pointed it out above, but the juxtaposition of snow fight on Starkiller Base in TFA and Padme and Anakin's final scene on Mustafar in ROTS.

Black Diamond=happy ending!!! The Skywalker curse is broken! "Love is the balance"

Reverse Anidala is still one of my favorite things to contemplate.

@Xylo Ren has discovered that the music from Anidala's fireplace scene is playing right before Reylo touches their hands in their fireplace scene. So that's an extra Easter egg for reverse or Inverse Anidala (some say Inverse is more accurate).

way to go @Xylo Ren!!!!

vaderito wrote:@Xylo Ren has discovered that the music from Anidala's fireplace scene is playing right before Reylo touches their hands in their fireplace scene. So that's an extra Easter egg for reverse or Inverse Anidala (some say Inverse is more accurate).

@vaderito

Wasn't there also a musical motif from the PT quoted from one of their scenes in the audio book? At least in this scenario, Ben doesn't drop some line on Rey about being in agony, he actually just listens to her.

snufkin wrote:

Wasn't there also a musical motif from the PT quoted from one of their scenes in the audio book? At least in this scenario, Ben doesn't drop some line on Rey about being in agony, he actually just listens to her.

@snufkin

yes, Padme's Ruminations was played during the Interrogation scene in the audio book.

Oh, I loved how they used Padme's Ruminations in that scene. So atmospheric and haunting.

I got curious about the PT music snippets used in TFA's audio book and credit to @gwendy85 who sometimes posts here for identifying two pieces of music for the PT couple used for for Rey and Kylo's scenes together in the audio book for TFA





Which makes you wonder if there will be any Easter Eggs in TLJ's audio book which sample music themes used in the PT. One thing that did occur to me somehwhat on whatever parallels they're drawing between the characters, the Throne Room scene is about a Force User murdering his leader/master in the Force and betraying the Order he's pledged himself to because of his love for a woman. For all the talk about how that scene subverts RotJ and the redemption expectations (which it does do), it's also referencing a completely different set of characters and scene from the PT. Just that unlike the situation with grandpa, Kylo/Ben's special lady friend manages to survive the ordeal.

I don't know where Reverse Anidala goes but it's undeniable at this point. I'll use fan art with the credit to the artist in place of scenes that still don't have legal images. I'll also put it in spoiler brackets cause it's image heavy so you'll have to scroll a lot).

Spoiler:

What does it all mean for IX? IMO, romantic love will save the galaxy and bring the balance to the Force:

PT = romantic love doomed (was not unconditional)/familial love saved (was unconditional)

ST = familial love doomed(was not unconditional) /romantic love will save (will be unconditional)

Palpatine = exploits/manipulates romantic love, underestimates familial love

Snoke = exploits/manipulates familial love, underestimates romantic love

So while Resistance/FO may be mirroring OT, Reylo is mirroring Anidala/PT. Going by that, I'd say there will be a happy ending since Anidala one was tragic. maybe not Yub Yub happy but definitely not morose with death, etc.

@Vaderito
I had my suspicions in TFA just based on 1) story structure, 2) a few visual and textual similarities, 3) what would make a compelling concluding trilogy, but TLJ is a smorgasbord of inverse Anidala sequences, dialogue and imagery. That, and Matt Martin can't talk about any potential parallels. He can't even confirm that they're parallels. Sure, Jan. 

Overall the major idea here is most likely:
PT: The story of how selfish romantic love made a monster from a man.
ST: The story of how selfless romantic love made a man from a monster. 

JJ also said he would be referencing the prequels. I really doubt we're going to Coruscant.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:@Vaderito
I had my suspicions in TFA just based on 1) story structure, 2) a few visual and textual similarities, 3) what would make a compelling concluding trilogy, but TLJ is a smorgasbord of inverse Anidala sequences, dialogue and imagery. That, and Matt Martin can't talk about any potential parallels. He can't even confirm that they're parallels. Sure, Jan. 

Overall the major idea here is most likely:
PT: The story of how selfish romantic love made a monster from a man.
ST: The story of how selfless romantic love made a man from a monster. 

JJ also said he would be referencing the prequels. I really doubt we're going to Coruscant.

@FrolickingFizzgig

Ah, nothing like a little Spike, er, spice.

yes, definitely. Reverse Anidala was our theory before TLJ. But TLJ made it really obvious and, as you said, JJ said he would reference PT. And yet, since fans complain that TFA is too OT, where would PT hide? Why, right here:

This is just random speculation on my part regarding reverse Anidala... but what if the whole goal here is less the balance of the Force and more the unity and balance between what started all this to begin with: religion and politics. A celibate knight bound by religion fell in love with a senator bound by responsibility. The disconnect between the two speheres led to the fall of the New Republic, the Jedi Order and Anakin and Padme's marriage in the PT. So what if we're going full reverse Anidala and telling the story of how these two spheres rose again, the tale of the nobody who became the first of the new Jedi and the descendant of the Skywalker line who helped rebuild the Republic. 

I was also thinking about all those lines in TLJ about "restoring the Republic". I admit I saw these as mostly throwaway bits of dialogue that SW always has, but it has to go somewhere, right? And what happens when you include Ben in that equation? And remember Kathleen Kennedy's description of Kylo's character arc ("we could use the dark side as a metaphor for rebellious youth to tell the story of how a young man reaches his accomplished adult life"). Something I may have sorely underestimated about Kylo is his need for a personal goal. It wasn't clear in TFA but if you take into account the politics that have always been looming in the background of this trilogy you come up with very interesting and unexpected conclusions. Probably wrong conclusions, but a girl can try. 

The Renperor vs. Benperor podcast recording definitely got me thinking about this more. I absolutely believe Renperor is coming in the early parts of IX because 1) we have to reestablish Kylo's character for development, 2) he needs to actually develop on-screen, but it would be interesting if Renperor slowly transformed into something else throughout IX. Maybe not a "good" emperor per se (because supreme leader f*** up has to go, let's be real) but someone who at least wants to work with others. @"Irena de France" got me thinking that perhaps being a horrible Renperor at the beginning of IX could be a way for Ben to realize that tyranny and force (a.k.a. what his grandaddy talked about with Padme in the field) doesn't work. 

I have never been a fan of Ben as a political official but when I realized how beautifully it falls in line with reverse Anidala in a conversation with my sister @MyOnlyHope my perspective started to change a little. The way they've been positioned on opposing sides (with Rey in the position of Anakin/the Jedi and Ben in the position of Padme/the senator is kind of interesting.

IMO, this would only work if Ben loses his Force powers at the end of IX, but that's something that would also fall in line with reverse Anidala (man to monster, monster to man). I really don't think we need another Force Sensitive chancellor of any kind. 

I can't believe I'm thinking about GFFA politics. Someone save me.

@Frolickingfizzgig That's a great idea! I can't wait for the podcast and you are right about that reversal has Rey in the Jedi position while Renperor in the political one (but with the Force powers). So there is something in there, especially if they don't drop Kylo vs Hux but introduce struggle within FO.

@Vaderito
Can't lie, my reaction to political official Kylo "ashes of his enemies, finish what you started, *kills father*, 'ooh a pretty girl', 'she left me!?', *takes over the FO*" Ren has pretty much been this for two years:



I mean, what kind of patricide story ends with the murderer in an actual position of authority? 

But there are definitely more satisfying conclusions than him just f***ing off to some unknown corner of the galaxy while Rey and the others get things done. And TLJ made me realize how much LF just... doesn't care about all the bad things a character does. They don't explain them away, they just pile on good things like sad puppy faces, shirtlessness, hero reassurances and bada** couples fights.

I'm super stoked to see what they have in store for him cause they are comfortable with taking chances/risks with this character. And we don't have a precedent to Skywalker The Ruler of the Galaxy. Vader was a glorified henchman but this is different.

@FrolickingFizzgig
This conversation from AOTC is quite thought provoking. One of the most central tensions between Anakin and Padme was actually political, and I think a similar tension needs to be resolved in the ST. Where Anakina and Padme failed, Rey and Kylo will succeed.

PADME: You really don't like politicians, do you?  

ANAKIN: I like two or three, but I'm not really sure about one of them. (smiling) I don't think the system works.

PADME: How would you have it work?

ANAKIN:  We need a system where the politicians sit down and discuss the problems, agree what's in the best interests of all the people, and then do it.  

PADME:  That is exactly what we do. The trouble is that people don't wlways agree. In fact, they hardly ever do.  

ANAKIN:  Then they should be made to.  

PADME:  By whom? Who's going to make them?  

ANAKIN:  I don't know. Someone.  

PADME:  You?  

ANAKIN:  Of course not me.  

PADME:  But someone.

ANAKIN:  Someone wise.  

PADME:  That sounds an awful lot like a dictatorship to me.

[A mischievious little grin creeps across his face. ]

ANAKIN:  Well, if it works...

Moving into the final chapter, Kylo has become what Anakin described in AOTC, the leader of a dictatorship. Something TLJ introduced to me is the idea that Kylo has a sincere and growing desire to spearhead a new order and restore peace to a broken galaxy through control. He thinks he's right. He thinks the dictatorial approach is genuinely in the best interest of the galaxy. I think he even has a lot of the right motives, but he's going about achieving them in all the wrong ways. Interestingly enough, politics are one of the aspects of Kylo's character Adam seems to focus on the most. Just go look at any interview about the character. Kylo is actually being established as a very politically-oriented character. So what if this story isn't only about Kylo realizing his political approaches and belief system are wrong, but also about him grasping what's right and starting along the path to doing everything he can to help the galaxy recover. Doing genuine good for the world he was complicit in wronging is so much more satisfying than just seeing him die or take off never to be seen again... How does that help the galaxy? How does that unite all three trilogies? A full developed version of Ben Solo who integrates so many aspects of his family (his grandmother and mother's desire to do political good, his father's loving heart and his uncle's failure) is one I'd love to see.

As per Luke's dying lesson on failure, I think Kylo has to fail miserably at leading the wrong way. There's no such thing as a good dictatorship in Star Wars. I think he can learn from what doesn't work and one day play a part in restoring democracy. This whole story has to be leading to the restoration of the Republic and the restoration of the Jedi Order, but this time the failures of the past will finally be learned from. Maybe a new political and spiritual system bound by selfless, unconditional love and compassion could help unite the galaxy and put an end to oppression and slavery?

Needless to say, I also think this kind of resolution works best with Kylo sacrificing his powers and moving forward as just a man with the loving heart and wise mind (having learned what doesn't work first-hand) to do good. Of course such a conclusion is also very much in line with inverse Anidala. The ST can accomplish the kind of happy ending that the OT never did with both the Jedi Order and the Republic being restored through love and joint action (and having learned from the failure of the spiritual and political past) and bringing all three trilogies full circle.