Rogue One - Spoilers Allowed

by Saracene Tue 20 Dec 2016, 6:18 pm

Just thinking more about the movie, I’m surprised it took the shape it did, because if you told me the premise – how did the Rebellion get the plans for the Death Star – I’d say it was a setup for a heist film more than anything else. You know, the Rebellion learns about the Death Star and assembles a team who go out and get the plans, every member of the team has some sort of special talent, something goes terribly wrong in the process, etc. etc. It’s kinda what happens in the movie, but it only gets there in the third act, which is BTW where the movie really seems to spring to life for many people. Instead, the two thirds of the movie are taken up with endless detouring where Jyn has to find Forest Whitaker and then they go looking for her father and nothing much actually happens. It’s a looong way to go to set up the actual mission that ultimately counts.

by panki Tue 20 Dec 2016, 6:34 pm

Mana wrote:Also, my mom is totally in love with Riz Ahmed. She was happy that 'Finally, there's someone who looks like us' (yeah she doesn't watch a lot of Hollywood movies, so she was pleasantly surprised, but I told her Hollywood was working on improving diversity).
She also thinks Diego Luna is cute (I agree)

@Mana

I agree with your Mum on all counts.... Very Happy

Also, seeing more diversity in SW has been a great thing. The last time there was someone who gave me the "he/she looks like me" feeling, it was Depa Bilaba in the PT....I guess even Sabine Wren also technically counts (though she is animated)....speaking of which, yesterday I noticed my bank manager looks like a clone of Riz Ahmed..... Razz

by **Kessel** Tue 20 Dec 2016, 7:38 pm

I actually found Bodhi's defection more believable than Finn's defection. In general, the R1 characters were intentionally less fleshed out than TFA characters so that may be one reason why Bodhi made more sense to me as a defector. Also, Finn's defection is supposed to have "more weight" than Bodhi's defection because of Finn's canon background as a soilder raised by the FO and the fact TFA characters are given more individual attention. I really didn't feel like Finn's background made sense with his defection and personality. I don't really see Finn as a "prior stormtrooper/bad guy." Even while watching TFA, I kind of forgot he was a former ST. I really feel he should have been an ordinary guy from a territory occupied by the FO, rather than someone who grew up in their very ranks.

I think a background like Bodhi's would have worked so much better for Finn. Bodhi was a guy from Jedha, a territory occupied by the Empire, who worked for them (probably as a way to survive), but had an identity and past separate from the Empire. It made sense that he would have the potential to defect if motivated to do so, even if afraid. I agree that his friendship with Galen was not touched on extensively, but that was never going to happen in R1. I got a general feel for it though and perhaps other books, comics could explore it. I'd like to know more about it.

by Saracene Tue 20 Dec 2016, 7:53 pm

Kessel89 wrote:I agree that his friendship with Galen was not touched on extensively, but that was never going to happen in R1. I got a general feel for it though and perhaps other books, comics could explore it. I'd like to know more about it.

@Kessel89

Was it even touched on, period, let alone extensively? I honestly can’t remember any mention of friendship, just Bodhi saying that Galen sent him.

I agree though that Finn’s characterisation doesn’t make a lick of sense. I wonder if the writers chose the “kidnapped from birth” route so that they could make Finn a completely blameless victim of the FO.

by ISeeAnIsland Tue 20 Dec 2016, 8:07 pm

Saracene wrote:
Kessel89 wrote:I agree that his friendship with Galen was not touched on extensively, but that was never going to happen in R1. I got a general feel for it though and perhaps other books, comics could explore it. I'd like to know more about it.
@Kessel89

Was it even touched on, period, let alone extensively? I honestly can’t remember any mention of friendship, just Bodhi saying that Galen sent him.

I agree though that Finn’s characterisation doesn’t make a lick of sense. I wonder if the writers chose the “kidnapped from birth” route so that they could make Finn a completely blameless victim of the FO.

@Saracene

I'd assumed that Bodhi and Galen had developed a friendship. I don't recall if there were specific lines that made me think that, or whether it was body language, or whether it was my mind simply filling in the blanks for what I expected.

by **Kessel** Tue 20 Dec 2016, 8:07 pm

Saracene wrote:
Kessel89 wrote:I agree that his friendship with Galen was not touched on extensively, but that was never going to happen in R1. I got a general feel for it though and perhaps other books, comics could explore it. I'd like to know more about it.
@Kessel89

Was it even touched on, period, let alone extensively? I honestly can’t remember any mention of friendship, just Bodhi saying that Galen sent him.

@Saracene

It was alluded to briefly. I've only seen the movie once, but I remember Bodhi saying something to the effect of (I'm paraphrasing ), "this is for you Galen" right before he was killed?

I think there may have been another reference to Galen and Bodhi's frienship, but I honestly can't remember. It's possible there wasn't much else other than Bodhi was there on Galen's request. It wasn't something discussed or explored.

I'll pay more attention to it next time I see it.

by SoloSideCousin Tue 20 Dec 2016, 10:19 pm

Kessel89 wrote:
Saracene wrote:
Kessel89 wrote:I agree that his friendship with Galen was not touched on extensively, but that was never going to happen in R1. I got a general feel for it though and perhaps other books, comics could explore it. I'd like to know more about it.
@Kessel89

Was it even touched on, period, let alone extensively? I honestly can’t remember any mention of friendship, just Bodhi saying that Galen sent him.
@Saracene

It was alluded to briefly. I've only seen the movie once, but I remember Bodhi saying something to the effect of (I'm paraphrasing ), "this is for you Galen" right before he was killed?

I think there may have been another reference to Galen and Bodhi's frienship, but I honestly can't remember. It's possible there wasn't much else other than Bodhi was there on Galen's request. It wasn't something discussed or explored.

I'll pay more attention to it next time I see it.

@Kessel89

There was definitely a "this is for you Galen" kind of line.

by Guest Wed 21 Dec 2016, 4:45 am

guardienne wrote:too much location hopping. and i did lose the plot a couple of times but it didn't matter because everythign was sign-posted and nothing mattered except all the heroism and look at the heroism and aren't they heroic.

@guardienne

One aspect of the film I really appreciated is that I didn't see the main characters being portrayed as simply heroic and heroes motivated by the greater good of the galaxy because they're, well, heroes. It struck me that everybody's motive was very personal. Jyn of course having her mother killed and father stolen from her and wanting to complete for him what he dedicated those stolen years to. Cassian's story was more vague but he says he's been in this fight since he was 6 years old and that Jyn is not the only one who "lost everything". Again, personal. Baze and Chirrut have had their home and purpose in life destroyed by the Empire. (In one trailer you hear Baze saying that the Empire "destroyed our home and now I fight the Empire", though that didn't make it into the movie.) Saw is somebody who has been brutalized both physically and psychologically by war. Bodhi's motive I thought was a little too vague. You don't hear why he defected or why he was bringing a message from Galen to Saw (or at least that I picked up on). Before he dies he says "this is for you, Galen" so I would assume there was a close relationship between the two.

by Darth_Awakened Wed 21 Dec 2016, 5:14 am

Sacrebleu wrote:
guardienne wrote:too much location hopping. and i did lose the plot a couple of times but it didn't matter because everythign was sign-posted and nothing mattered except all the heroism and look at the heroism and aren't they heroic.
@guardienne

One aspect of the film I really appreciated is that I didn't see the main characters being portrayed as simply heroic and heroes motivated by the greater good of the galaxy because they're, well, heroes. It struck me that everybody's motive was very personal. Jyn of course having her mother killed and father stolen from her and wanting to complete for him what he dedicated those stolen years to. Cassian's story was more vague but he says he's been in this fight since he was 6 years old and that Jyn is not the only one who "lost everything". Again, personal. Baze and Chirrut have had their home and purpose in life destroyed by the Empire. (In one trailer you hear Baze saying that the Empire "destroyed our home and now I fight the Empire", though that didn't make it into the movie.) Saw is somebody who has been brutalized both physically and psychologically by war. Bodhi's motive I thought was a little too vague. You don't hear why he defected or why he was bringing a message from Galen to Saw (or at least that I picked up on). Before he dies he says "this is for you, Galen" so I would assume there was a close relationship between the two.

@Sacrebleu

I agree completely. They're almost sort of anti-heroes compared to the portrait of rebels in ANH.
I get that we have all different opinions, expectations and tastes - for my part I didn't need much more exposition to get the charatcers and the motivation. In fact, I honestly think that more of exposition would hurt the movie as a whole.

by Guest Wed 21 Dec 2016, 5:24 am

Darth_Awakened wrote:
Sacrebleu wrote:
guardienne wrote:too much location hopping. and i did lose the plot a couple of times but it didn't matter because everythign was sign-posted and nothing mattered except all the heroism and look at the heroism and aren't they heroic.
@guardienne

One aspect of the film I really appreciated is that I didn't see the main characters being portrayed as simply heroic and heroes motivated by the greater good of the galaxy because they're, well, heroes. It struck me that everybody's motive was very personal. Jyn of course having her mother killed and father stolen from her and wanting to complete for him what he dedicated those stolen years to. Cassian's story was more vague but he says he's been in this fight since he was 6 years old and that Jyn is not the only one who "lost everything". Again, personal. Baze and Chirrut have had their home and purpose in life destroyed by the Empire. (In one trailer you hear Baze saying that the Empire "destroyed our home and now I fight the Empire", though that didn't make it into the movie.) Saw is somebody who has been brutalized both physically and psychologically by war. Bodhi's motive I thought was a little too vague. You don't hear why he defected or why he was bringing a message from Galen to Saw (or at least that I picked up on). Before he dies he says "this is for you, Galen" so I would assume there was a close relationship between the two.
@Sacrebleu

I agree completely. They're almost sort of anti-heroes compared to the portrait of rebels in ANH.
I get that we have all different opinions, expectations and tastes - for my part I didn't need much more exposition to get the charatcers and the motivation. In fact, I honestly think that more of exposition would hurt the movie as a whole.

@Darth_Awakened

I tend to agree with you. I would have liked an additional line or two regarding Bodhi and I thought Saw wasn't integrated into the story very well, but those are minor quibbles. I felt the film was not meant to be an in-depth character analysis. For me it was more like a snapshot in time depicting how and why *ordinary* people who have nothing left to lose get caught up in a war.

by guardienne Wed 21 Dec 2016, 6:42 am

@sacrebleu & @darth_awakened

yeah, i guess, i didn't feel drawn in with them. it just felt like, jyn is all despondent until someone offers her freedom (how? what would that entail? how is the rebellion capable of offering freedom? from what?) and then she sees her father's message about how he loved her the whole time... was it not communicated to her why he might be taken from her? what's the deal with her mum? what did saw communicate with her apart from training her for combat? and then abandoned her? for what purpose?

are saw's people kinda like the star war version of al-qaeda, right? so how does that fit with what the movie wants to say? that the rebels are split into factions and there are extremists and they will be taken out if they become too extreme?

like, jyn somehow has a change of heart, but i didn't even realise she felt unloved or felt that her father was betraying her? did i simply not catch that bit? her seeing him seems to be all she needs, when the rebels are convinced he has betrayed them?

why does she not hold a grudge against the empire before that seeing as they killed her mother?

the film not being in-depth character-analysis,.. well you gotta do something to help me relate to these people, no?

this is a pretty good bunch of first thoughts: http://millicentthecat.tumblr.com/post/154635770156/rogue-one-believe-in-their-vision

especially the bit about how the extremists aren't really that extreme.

by SanghaRen Wed 21 Dec 2016, 7:17 am

Count me in for Bodhi. I like that character a lot. Actually it did not bother me that we don't clearly see his motives or his relationship with Galen. It still felt right. You could really sense the struggle between wanting to do the right thing and being sith-scared. I always come back to Mad Max, but you don't get Furiosa's background or motives in the film, you just understand that she's really angry against Immortan Joe and even the end of the movie does not give you the whole story, which is told in a comic book. You partly get the wives' motives but without showing what they went through - again, the comics are more explanatory and you also get why specifically one, Toast, is angrier and is a bit more distant. Still, you feel it. It's in the way they behave, their expressions, the decisions they make. I love it when not everything is spilled out for you, but you end up connecting with the characters without even knowing why sometimes.

There are a lot of little things that, I think, the actor brought to the character - I don't know the actor btw. I enjoyed the scene when he's flying with K-2SO to rescue the others and then he gets up quickly from the seat once they landed. Maybe I am wrong but I took it as partly avoiding that Cassian sees that he was in the co-pilot seat and I thought it was funny somehow. There's little things here and there that Bodhi does, in the background sometimes, that just make it real. Can't explain it.

by Guest Wed 21 Dec 2016, 7:20 am

guardienne wrote:@sacrebleu & @darth_awakened

yeah, i guess, i didn't feel drawn in with them. it just felt like, jyn is all despondent until someone offers her freedom (how? what would that entail? how is the rebellion capable of offering freedom? from what?) and then she sees her father's message about how he loved her the whole time... was it not communicated to her why he might be taken from her? what's the deal with her mum? what did saw communicate with her apart from training her for combat? and then abandoned her? for what purpose?

are saw's people kinda like the star war version of al-qaeda, right? so how does that fit with what the movie wants to say? that the rebels are split into factions and there are extremists and they will be taken out if they become too extreme?

like, jyn somehow has a change of heart, but i didn't even realise she felt unloved or felt that her father was betraying her? did i simply not catch that bit? her seeing him seems to be all she needs, when the rebels are convinced he has betrayed them?

why does she not hold a grudge against the empire before that seeing as they killed her mother?

the film not being in-depth character-analysis,.. well you gotta do something to help me relate to these people, no?

@guardienne

I can only surmise, but Jyn was so young when she was forcibly and suddenly deprived of her family. I can see it being something that she lets go of for a while out of survival necessity, both physical and psychological, and comes back to later. I think many people do that with traumatic events. They also change their perspective on tragic events in their lives over the course of decades.

I mentioned above that I didn't feel Saw, or his group, were well incorporated into the rest of the story. They felt like an awkward appendage to me. Maybe the parts that would have made sense of them for me were some of the parts that were cut out.

Finally, I don't think we necessarily need in-depth character analysis to identify with the human condition.

But there is no right or wrong to this. With any fictional film or story there is an element of disbelief suspension. The inconsistencies either bother us or they don't. We are either swept up in the characters or we aren't. My cousin who loves Rogue One could barely sit through Force Awakens because he was so completely uninterested in and unsold on the characters of Rey, Finn, and Kylo. Everyone's mileage varies. When we are swept away, it's a magical feeling, which is why we keep watching films even though so many disappoint us. It's worth slogging through the meh to get to the magic.

I'll take a look at that Millicent post.

by guardienne Wed 21 Dec 2016, 8:16 am

@sacrebleu i don't think i need in-depth character analysis, whatever that means, i can do that in the privacy of my own home, but i'd like for things to feel like they have some emotional logic.

it feels like it was written backwards, there has to be the finding of the floppy disk, and before that we have to nearly split the rebellion in half because otherwise it would have been a concerted effort to begin with and we have to have fundamentalists because otherwise the heroes don't look moderate (even though i'm not sure how moderate i'm supposed to interpret their behaviour (esp cassian) i guess?

of course, your mileage may vary, as always, and i'm clearly in the minority and i'm wondering whether i'm normally making do with the flimsiness of the characterisation or whether the film has failed and i can't answer that.

this is also interesting wrt your earlier discussion of heroism: http://septembriseur.tumblr.com/post/154658051854/for-all-the-talk-about-how-political-star-wars-is

and it's funny given the discussion between us because i would have to support that as a notion, it's great that everyone dies, because that's how it's been set up and that's finally a story going with the consequences for its protagonists XD so believe me, i'm feeling fairly schizophrenic, but i don't think the movie earns it.

by Guest Wed 21 Dec 2016, 8:25 am

@guardienne

I can't argue with your interpretation. What you say makes sense to me intellectually. I can only reiterate that the film worked for me. I remember once mentioning to you how brutal the Star Wars universe is, and I saw and felt that reflected in this movie. As I stated earlier, these characters are people with nothing left to lose and I didn't feel manipulated watching them, I felt empathy for them. On one level I enjoyed the film as a rousing action adventure, but the fact that they all die did elevate it for me even more.

by CienaRee Wed 21 Dec 2016, 8:34 am

Sacrebleu wrote:@guardienne

I can't argue with your interpretation. What you say makes sense to me intellectually. I can only reiterate that the film worked for me. I remember once mentioning to you how brutal the Star Wars universe is, and I saw and felt that reflected in this movie. As I stated earlier, these characters are people with nothing left to lose and I didn't feel manipulated watching them, I felt empathy for them. On one level I enjoyed the film as a rousing action adventure, but the fact that they all die did elevate it for me even more.

@Sacrebleu
I agree with this. For example I never felt that Jyn was an extention of her father or anything like that.I think her finding out the truth was able to heal some of the scars she had carried in herself and helped her made the decision to fight against the Empire while also protecting her father's legacy.I thought these were powerful motivations and a lot more clearly stated than Rey's at the end of TFA.
My main criticism would probably be in the way they treated Jyn's mom Lyra.I thought the way she died was stupid and the novalization actually makes it worse by having her say that her husband needs her more than her daughter.She could have died fighting for Jyn or later when Jyn's in her teens it just really reminded me of how Padme died because of Anakin becoming Vader and leaving her innocent children which is really unfortuante because I really liked the movie otherwsie.

by SanghaRen Wed 21 Dec 2016, 10:07 am

To be fair, I have to say my biggest disappointment is Jyn so I guess I can join the minority group too.

I really wanted to like her but I felt no connection. I don't understand her. One minute she's a tough one punching people, the next one she's standing there apathetic, and then she's Miss Rebellion. Her scene with Saw is blah. The guy left her behind when she was 16 and that's it, she's standing there with one little angry reply? But as mentioned by @Sacrebleu, the whole Saw thing just feels off so I can brush that one aside. Then she trusts Cassian at the speed of light. Ok, the guy is cute, but I would have expected her to be a tiny bit more mistrustful. And then the "I am climbing up the cliff where there is a dozen stormtroopers to take down instead of following the direct threat, one guy, who's just a bit ahead of me". To me it does not scream street smart, which I thought she was. The final blow for me was when she confronts Cassian and then accepts his version of the story namely that he chose not to pull the trigger. The guy lied to her face like 10 minutes before and it's not like she saw if he did not pull the trigger willingly or was just impeded. For someone who got let down by her protector at 16 and just started to trust someone to be let down again, I found her reaction unsettling - standing there again. Ok, the guy is cute. At that point, I completely jumped off the Jyn wagon that I was desperately trying to hold on to. For me there was a constant hesitation between toughness and (incredible) naivety in her character and that did not work for me. Actually I have a similar issue with Rey, to a lesser extent.

I am not going to say that it's the worse character ever, far from it, and I do intend to watch the movie a second time, but I am disappointed. And it's a shame. I still shed a few tears when she and Cassian died. Probably because I really wanted to believe in it and the scene is nice. Felicity Jones did her best, but overall it did not work me.

by Guest Wed 21 Dec 2016, 10:19 am

@SanghaRen

I bought into Jyn with her reaction to her father's holographic message. The actress sold the character to me in that moment. I think she ultimately went with her gut on Cassian.

Probably influenced by the fact that he was a cute guy. Smile

by Xylo Ren Wed 21 Dec 2016, 10:27 am

CienaRee wrote:
Sacrebleu wrote:@guardienne

I can't argue with your interpretation. What you say makes sense to me intellectually. I can only reiterate that the film worked for me. I remember once mentioning to you how brutal the Star Wars universe is, and I saw and felt that reflected in this movie. As I stated earlier, these characters are people with nothing left to lose and I didn't feel manipulated watching them, I felt empathy for them. On one level I enjoyed the film as a rousing action adventure, but the fact that they all die did elevate it for me even more.
@Sacrebleu
I agree with this. For example I never felt that Jyn was an extention of her father or anything like that.I think her finding out the truth was able to heal some of the scars she had carried in herself and helped her made the decision to fight against the Empire while also protecting her father's legacy.I thought these were powerful motivations and a lot more clearly stated than Rey's at the end of TFA.
My main criticism would probably be in the way they treated Jyn's mom Lyra.I thought the way she died was stupid and the novalization actually makes it worse by having her say that her husband needs her more than her daughter.She could have died fighting for Jyn or later when Jyn's in her teens it just really reminded me of how Padme died because of Anakin becoming Vader and leaving her innocent children which is really unfortuante because I really liked the movie otherwsie.

@CienaRee

Oh no, there is no way that is true! HOW CAN SHE SAY THAT??!! See, this is a HuuUUUuuuuggeee ~~trigger?~~ beef with me and stories that do this! The single most thing I hated about the PT (which I love to a loyal fault, by the way) is how Padme died. Before I ever knew how derided the PT was, I always hated that detail, even as a kid I picked up how horrible it is that she "lost the will to live" while giving birth to two beautiful twins! They should've made it clearer that Palpatine was killing her, or make it that Anakin severed her wind pipe or something. Anything more than this powerful former queen and senator...dying because Anakin broke her heart! I cannot!

So this detail about Lyra saying her husband needed her more than her daughter...poppycock! She died in a nonsensical "I'm gonna sacrifice myself because...it's right" way instead of trying to hide away with her young daughter! Even my sister said to me in the theatre "why didn't they just both hide in that bunker?"

Why are writers so bad when it comes to mothers??!!

by SanghaRen Wed 21 Dec 2016, 10:46 am

Sacrebleu wrote:@SanghaRen

I bought into Jyn with her reaction to her father's holographic message. The actress sold the character to me in that moment. I think she ultimately went with her gut on Cassian.

Probably influenced by the fact that he was a cute guy.

I am not saying I did not buy into some moments. I did buy into Jyn's reaction to her father's holographic message, but then... Oh, well. The liking for a character is personal taste and often influenced by one's own backstory so if Jyn worked for some people, amen to that. I am just trying to make sense of why it did not work for me. Cassian being cute definitively factored in - hormone levels went up and clouded her judgment Smile

Some of you are reading the novelization? I am not getting anywhere close to it. Not after making the mistake of reading the TFA ones.

by Irina de France Wed 21 Dec 2016, 11:40 am

SO I ENDED UP WRITING A 4.5K REVIEW. ELEVEN WORD PAGES. JESUS.

I put this under spoilers since it got really long, so you can just click on one tab to get to see a topic in particular. I tried not to read the thread too much so I wouldn’t get influenced by the above, lol. I did manage to get a general idea, though, by talking about the movie with friends and not having access to a computer yesterday helped me organize my ideas better.

Long story short: overall, I think this makes a great companion piece to ANH, and it fixes a few plot holes the movie had for nearly 40 years. I’m also glad Disney decided not to have SW be like Marvel and force everyone to see every single movie/spinoff/TV series/whatever in order to understand the story. I highly recommend Rogue One, obviously, but thankfully, you don’t have to see it to understand the main saga movies. They still stand well on their own.

Rogue One… like, I said, I preferred it to TFA, but I’m not so sure anymore? It’s actually pretty hard to compare them both. TFA was basically Disney and Lucasfilm fixing the mess caused by the prequels while setting the grounds for a riskier story while introducing new stuff, while R1 was all about TPTB showing off they had da chops even if it’s Disney. There’s the emotional attachment too. I love R1, especially the story: the fact that it’s more adult is probably the reason why I’m not sure if I prefer it to TFA, since the R1 story is more appealing to me, but that might also be because of TFA being just one chapter of a story. TFA also feels somewhat a lot more personal to me, and it is what lead me to my SW obsession in the first place. I don’t know if R1 would have been powerful enough to do that.

The main difference between R1 and the saga movies is that the first is really a sci-fi war movie. The saga movies are sci-fi too, but they’re fairy tales in space more than anything else, so that makes their spirit pretty different.

I don’t know if I’ll have time to see it again: as I said, I loved it, but I’m not the kind of person who’ll go and see a movie 4-5 times (I’m also a broke*ss student), but if I have the occasion, I might.

In general (comments in no particular order):

Jyn:

Galen/Lyra/Galen and Jyn:

Saw Guerrera:

Vader/VADER’S CASTLE HOLY SITH I’M STILL LAUGHING MY *SS OFF (in a good way):

Cassian:

Jyn and Cassian:

Krennic:

K2SO:

Bodhi Rook:

Jedha/Chirrut and Baze:

ZE FANSERVICE:

by Darth_Awakened Wed 21 Dec 2016, 11:51 am

@Irina de France

Just want to say: Wow! what a review!

Admiral Raddus says thanks Wink

Rogue One - Spoilers Allowed 118px-75172-raddus

by Irina de France Wed 21 Dec 2016, 11:53 am

Lol imagine my review for Episode VIII though. IT'S GONNA BE AWFUL.

by Sylvia Snow Wed 21 Dec 2016, 12:36 pm

So, Vader's castle have a name, it's called "the Dark Monolith" and it was built above a natural Sith Cave that holds its own dangerous secrets

It is described as Darth's own personal hideaway, and is 'an obsidian tower on an inhospitable world' .The Emperor actually demands that Vader live in such an unforgiving nightmare of a place to help fuel his rage and anger. Darth Vader has an assistant on Mustafar named Vanee, who watches over the Dark Lord whenever he meditates in his rejuvenation chamber. The home is said to be a 'stark, modern structure built over an ancient castle full of dark secrets wrote:

by CienaRee Wed 21 Dec 2016, 12:56 pm

Xylo Ren wrote:
CienaRee wrote:
Sacrebleu wrote:@guardienne

I can't argue with your interpretation. What you say makes sense to me intellectually. I can only reiterate that the film worked for me. I remember once mentioning to you how brutal the Star Wars universe is, and I saw and felt that reflected in this movie. As I stated earlier, these characters are people with nothing left to lose and I didn't feel manipulated watching them, I felt empathy for them. On one level I enjoyed the film as a rousing action adventure, but the fact that they all die did elevate it for me even more.
@Sacrebleu
I agree with this. For example I never felt that Jyn was an extention of her father or anything like that.I think her finding out the truth was able to heal some of the scars she had carried in herself and helped her made the decision to fight against the Empire while also protecting her father's legacy.I thought these were powerful motivations and a lot more clearly stated than Rey's at the end of TFA.
My main criticism would probably be in the way they treated Jyn's mom Lyra.I thought the way she died was stupid and the novalization actually makes it worse by having her say that her husband needs her more than her daughter.She could have died fighting for Jyn or later when Jyn's in her teens it just really reminded me of how Padme died because of Anakin becoming Vader and leaving her innocent children which is really unfortuante because I really liked the movie otherwsie.
@CienaRee

Oh no, there is no way that is true! HOW CAN SHE SAY THAT??!! See, this is a HuuUUUuuuuggeee ~~trigger?~~ beef with me and stories that do this! The single most thing I hated about the PT (which I love to a loyal fault, by the way) is how Padme died. Before I ever knew how derided the PT was, I always hated that detail, even as a kid I picked up how horrible it is that she "lost the will to live" while giving birth to two beautiful twins! They should've made it clearer that Palpatine was killing her, or make it that Anakin severed her wind pipe or something. Anything more than this powerful former queen and senator...dying because Anakin broke her heart! I cannot!

So this detail about Lyra saying her husband needed her more than her daughter...poppycock! She died in a nonsensical "I'm gonna sacrifice myself because...it's right" way instead of trying to hide away with her young daughter! Even my sister said to me in the theatre "why didn't they just both hide in that bunker?"

Why are writers so bad when it comes to mothers??!!

@Xylo Ren
Right?Would it have been so hard to write a scene where Lyra dies fighting so her daughter could get away?It would have made so much more sense and would have stayed true to Lyra's character.Instead we get this:

''We need to keep going.Don't let them see you,okay?''
They moved together,as swiftly as Lyra could manage while squatting out of sight.Her lips were cramping as she led Jyn around the base of a comm spire and stopped again to peer towards the farmhouse.She couldn't make Krennic ast the troopers,couldn't see if Galen had emerged,but the group had halted near the front door.Lyra suddenly pictured the armored figures raising flames,reducing the house to ash and charred metal while her husbad screamed inside...
She knew better.So long as Krennic was in control,Galen would stay alive long after the rest of the were ded.He would have no choice but to work for that man untillhe was old and feeble, until his intellect began to fail him and the Empire determined he was no longer useful.
Lyra realized she'd made a decision.
She unslung the bag,rooted trough the contents until she found what she needed.She set a bundle of clothes in the grass and placed her hands on Jyn's shoulders.The girl was trembling.She met her mother's gaze.
''You know where to go,don't you?''Lyra asked.''Wait for me there.Don't come out for anyone but me.''
Jyn didn't answer.Lyra saw the mousture in her eyes.A voice told Lyra,If you leave her now,she's done.You've taken all her strength away.
But Lyra had commited herself to a path.Her husband needed her more than her daughter.
...Her last thought was:I wish Galen weren't here to see.

WTF is this LF???!!!Seriously how could they think that's a normal behaviour of a mother?It makes Lyra look f****ing terrible.Jyn's eight years old and is clearly terrified and need her.I really hate this especially when earlier Galen's telling Jyn how everything he does is to protect her.
Her death in the movie was stupid but knowing what she was thinking just makes it all the more horribale.

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