Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

MeadowofAshes wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:Kylo killed his mentor for Rey. He tried to obliterate  the Resistance but spared the survivors for Rey. He is the Beast to Rey's Beauty. And Beauty discovered she couldn't live without her Beast.

@motherofpearl1

To hell with the children. Everyone except hardcore antis would be pissed off by that message.

@MeadowofAshes

Don't know how this happened but this was not the quote I was intending to respond to LOL. Sorry!

I was responding to one about killing off a victim of child abuse not sending a good message to kids.

Night Huntress wrote:

MeadowofAshes wrote:
@Night Huntress



I honestly think he doesn't know she's on the Falcon. He sees the piece of junk that represents his family and is triggered. His "I'll destroy her" line comes afted he senses her hugging and feeling happy with Finn, and look how that turns out. "Please don't make me sleep on the couch" face.

@MeadowofAshes

maybe- but you can't just kill everyone just because you're mad/displeased. That's something he will have to learn... and I'm sad that they didn't evolve his character to this point at the end of the second movie.
Sure he let them go at the end- but that "act of mercy" came a bit too late.

I' do like TLJ but I can't help thinking how they could have done things differently at the end.
For example let him chase after Rey... not to kill her, but to sort things out between them.
Of course she would have escaped - because drama and open ending for IX.

@Night Huntress

Yes, but would it make sense for his character? I don't personally think so. That's not where he's at right now, otherwise IX would be all external conflict. Ben still needs to have a deep personal transformation and the place for that is in IX.

And when I say I empathize with Ben, I don't mean he doesn't have to change. He does. I mean, I can put myself in his shoes and understand what motivates him and why he's repeatedly making his screwed up choices. I want him to take charge of his life and follow his own advice in IX - let the past die. But I want it to incorporate what Rose says - saving the things he loves rather than destoying what he hates.

Am I the only one whose heart broke at a single word. Please.

motherofpearl1 wrote:Am I the only one whose heart broke at a single word. Please.

@motherofpearl1

You are not.

motherofpearl1 wrote:Am I the only one whose heart broke at a single word. Please.

@motherofpearl1

No, you weren't. Ben practically broke in half there. Adam was absolutely beyond incredible in that moment. I am getting past it with more analysis, but that was a huge reason that I was so pissed at Rey. He is so very desperate and unsteady there and he really didn't need her to grab the lightsaber at that moment.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:Am I the only one whose heart broke at a single word. Please.

@motherofpearl1

No, you weren't. Ben practically broke in half there. Adam was absolutely beyond incredible in that moment. I am getting past it with more analysis, but that was a huge reason that I was so pissed at Rey. He is so very desperate and unsteady there and he really didn't need her to grab the lightsaber at that moment.

@SoloSideCousin

He needed her to give him a hug.

motherofpearl1 wrote:Am I the only one whose heart broke at a single word. Please.

@motherofpearl1

I shattered.

What's ironic about Renperor is that George Lucas originally intended Luke to take the same turn after The Emperor's death in ROTJ.

Even though Lucas really wanted a bright, upbeat ending, and he fought against killing off any major characters — even Yoda, for a long time — during one story session, Lucas pitched a really, really dark ending. In a nutshell, the scene with Vader and the Emperor unspools the way it does in the final film. Vader sacrifices himself to take out the Emperor, and then Luke helps Vader to take off his famous helmet. And then — Luke puts on Vader's helmet himself. In the transcript of the story session with Lucas and Kasdan, Lucas says: "Luke takes his mask off. The mask is the very last thing — and then Luke puts it on and says, 'Now I am Vader.' Surprise! The ultimate twist. 'Now I will go and kill the [Rebel] fleet and I will rule the universe.'"

https://io9.gizmodo.com/10-things-you-probably-didnt-know-about-star-wars-ret-1383276948/1388764126

http://www.digitalspy.com/movies/star-wars/news/a818249/star-wars-return-of-the-jedi-alternate-ending/

It's funny how some fans will say TLJ mirrors ESB but will completely miss the similarities of ROTJ. Just like TFA had some beats of ANH but followed ESB a tad more. Kylo is the path Luke may have taken.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:Am I the only one whose heart broke at a single word. Please.

@motherofpearl1

No, you weren't. Ben practically broke in half there. Adam was absolutely beyond incredible in that moment. I am getting past it with more analysis, but that was a huge reason that I was so pissed at Rey. He is so very desperate and unsteady there and he really didn't need her to grab the lightsaber at that moment.

@SoloSideCousin

I think to him, it was bertrayal like with luke. She had moment of weakness and took the lightsaber from him. Considering she almost killed him before, no wonder he'll be wary. I was mad at her for this too. Kylo once he sees her again will be very angry, like fury unleashed.

DarthRen wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:Am I the only one whose heart broke at a single word. Please.

@motherofpearl1

No, you weren't. Ben practically broke in half there. Adam was absolutely beyond incredible in that moment. I am getting past it with more analysis, but that was a huge reason that I was so pissed at Rey. He is so very desperate and unsteady there and he really didn't need her to grab the lightsaber at that moment.

@SoloSideCousin

I think to him, it was bertrayal like with luke. She had moment of weakness and took the lightsaber from him. Considering she almost killed him before, no wonder he'll be wary. I was mad at her for this too. Kylo once he sees her again will be very angry, like fury unleashed.

@DarthRen

It's another trademark Reylo inverse. Their first meeting Rey hated Kylo because she felt hurt and betrayed by him. She really thought low of him and wanted to throw him another beat down. Ben on the other hand still wanted to work things out between them. When they first talked via their ForceBond she attacked where Ben wanted to talk and rekindle their connection. Now Kylo is the one who feels wounded and betrayed, at the movies end.

Ironic, because I guess a lot of people expect Ben to beg Rey's forgiveness in part IX. But what if it's the other way around?

motherofpearl1 wrote:Ironic, because I guess a lot of people expect Ben to beg Rey's forgiveness in part IX. But what if it's the other way around?

@motherofpearl1

It should be IMO. She'll see how mucked up the Resistance is. Then she'll be the one to turn and stand by him. <3

But I have a feeling he won't be sticking around the FO for too long himself. End game is for these two to leave everything behind and forge a new path.

Darth Dementor wrote:

DarthRen wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:Am I the only one whose heart broke at a single word. Please.

@motherofpearl1

No, you weren't. Ben practically broke in half there. Adam was absolutely beyond incredible in that moment. I am getting past it with more analysis, but that was a huge reason that I was so pissed at Rey. He is so very desperate and unsteady there and he really didn't need her to grab the lightsaber at that moment.

@SoloSideCousin

I think to him, it was bertrayal like with luke. She had moment of weakness and took the lightsaber from him. Considering she almost killed him before, no wonder he'll be wary. I was mad at her for this too. Kylo once he sees her again will be very angry, like fury unleashed.

@DarthRen

It's another trademark Reylo inverse. Their first meeting Rey hated Kylo because she felt hurt and betrayed by him. She really thought low of him and wanted to throw him another beat down. Ben on the other hand still wanted to work things out between them. When they first talked via their ForceBond she attacked where Ben wanted to talk and rekindle their connection. Now Kylo is the one who feels wounded and betrayed, at the movies end.

@Darth Dementor

Touche. Kylo is truly lost right now from his and many other peoples point of view but as Luke said it "no one is truly gone." I can see Rey reaching out tohim if they follow on this because at times I think they make it up as they go. It shows.

This whole movie felt really like ROTS and pieces of ROTJ, ESB and ANH. Truly a combination and JJ made a point of tying it all together, so more parallels. Almost as if TLJ was the ending of the trilogy or a standalone movie.

Is it just me, or was the right side of his face bruised - even at the end it looked discoloured.

I love how Kylo is just SO calm around Rey throughout the film, even in the last force bond moment.

This is the first time we get to see him not focused on revenge, or lashing out in anger. He's calm, curious and gentle, with Rey being the one to lose her temper.

Idk, it was just so nice to see a different side to Kylo this time around, I hope we have more of that in IX  

You think there was an intentional parallel between:

(TFA) Kylo momentarily considers giving his lightsaber to his dad and walking away from Snoke. (Dark to light)

(TLJ) Rey momentarily considers taking Kylo’s hand walking away from the Resistance (Light to dark)

@Night Huntress I understand your reservations. But I was reminded of Wonder Woman when you questioned whether or not Ben deserves redemption.
In Wonder Woman, a running theme is the question of getting what you deserve, correct? And they answered that.
It's not about what you (we, Ben, the galaxy) deserve. If we got that, we wouldn't exist.
It's about hope.
And in the case of Star Wars, it's also about family.
I have to hope for a better end for Ben than Anakin. And I have to hope that Luke is the Jedi Master he failed to be as a Force Ghost.

PalmettoBlue wrote:@Night Huntress I understand your reservations. But I was reminded of Wonder Woman when you questioned whether or not Ben deserves redemption.
In Wonder Woman, a running theme is the question of getting what you deserve, correct? And they answered that.
It's not about what you (we, Ben, the galaxy) deserve. If we got that, we wouldn't exist.
It's about hope.
And in the case of Star Wars, it's also about family.
I have to hope for a better end for Ben than Anakin. And I have to hope that Luke is the Jedi Master he failed to be as a Force Ghost.

@PalmettoBlue

Why oh WHY isn't Patty Jenkins directing IX? I feel like she would be perfect for that movie, even moreso after what we got in TLJ.

Something about this trilogy is so female gaze-oriented to me that I feel like it should be concluded by a woman to have it done just right. And Wonder Woman's themes make me feel like Jenkins gets it.

@ZioRen I agree - completely.

PalmettoBlue wrote:@Night Huntress I understand your reservations. But I was reminded of Wonder Woman when you questioned whether or not Ben deserves redemption.
In Wonder Woman, a running theme is the question of getting what you deserve, correct? And they answered that.
It's not about what you (we, Ben, the galaxy) deserve. If we got that, we wouldn't exist.
It's about hope.
And in the case of Star Wars, it's also about family.
I have to hope for a better end for Ben than Anakin. And I have to hope that Luke is the Jedi Master he failed to be as a Force Ghost.

@PalmettoBlue

I haven't seen Wonder Woman- but I defiantly will check it out.

I read a lot of books - fantasy/paranormal/Si-Fi... and I love complicated star-crossed lover themes.
I also have a thing for dark tormented heroes/villains - the problem is, this is Star Wars - and I don't know if they will go down this road.
Many people already complained about how Kylo is unredeemable after he killed Han- don't know how they would feel about having him a happy ending after what he did at the end of TLJ.
And for whatever reason they didn't show enough of Ben's backstory for the average viewer to root for him - or did they? I was afraid to check the reaction outside of this board?

If this was a rather dark tv-show like GoT... I would be less concerned because they don't follow the clean and wholesome moral codex bullish***

Night Huntress wrote:

PalmettoBlue wrote:@Night Huntress I understand your reservations. But I was reminded of Wonder Woman when you questioned whether or not Ben deserves redemption.
In Wonder Woman, a running theme is the question of getting what you deserve, correct? And they answered that.
It's not about what you (we, Ben, the galaxy) deserve. If we got that, we wouldn't exist.
It's about hope.
And in the case of Star Wars, it's also about family.
I have to hope for a better end for Ben than Anakin. And I have to hope that Luke is the Jedi Master he failed to be as a Force Ghost.

@PalmettoBlue

I haven't seen Wonder Woman- but I defiantly will check it out.  

I read a lot of books - fantasy/paranormal/Si-Fi... and I love complicated star-crossed lover themes.
I also have a thing for dark tormented heroes/villains - the problem is, this is Star Wars - and I don't know if they will go down this road.
Many people already complained about how Kylo is unredeemable after he killed Han- don't know how they would feel about having him a happy ending after what he did at the end of TLJ.
And for whatever reason they didn't show enough of Ben's backstory for the average viewer to root for him - or did they? I was afraid to check the reaction outside of this board?

If this was a rather dark tv-show like GoT... I would be less concerned because they don't follow the clean and wholesome moral codex bullish***

@Night Huntress

I actually see a good deal of fanboys empathizing with Kylo and not hating him not exactly because they care about how Kylo feels, but because they're incredibly angry about the reveal with Luke. They feel like the twist was character assassination and are being sarcastic like "Oh no, Ben, this is all just a misunderstanding! I only thought about killing you in your sleep for a second, but that was it! Hahaha, what a crazy night this has been, right?"

ZioRen wrote:
@Night Huntress

I actually see a good deal of fanboys empathizing with Kylo and not hating him not exactly because they care about how Kylo feels, but because they're incredibly angry about the reveal with Luke. They feel like the twist was character assassination and are being sarcastic like "Oh no, Ben, this is all just a misunderstanding! I only thought about killing you in your sleep for a second, but that was it! Hahaha, what a crazy night this has been, right?"

@ZioRen

Yeah, that was a bit...strange. And I admit not exactly in character for Luke from the OT at all.

Well, the fanboys don't have reason to complain about weak, whiney Kylo - at least not in the same sense as after TFA... he so kicked a** in this one and I was laughing out laud as he tossed Hux around.

motherofpearl1 wrote:Am I the only one whose heart broke at a single word. Please.

@motherofpearl1

Same

Night Huntress wrote:

PalmettoBlue wrote:@Night Huntress I understand your reservations. But I was reminded of Wonder Woman when you questioned whether or not Ben deserves redemption.
In Wonder Woman, a running theme is the question of getting what you deserve, correct? And they answered that.
It's not about what you (we, Ben, the galaxy) deserve. If we got that, we wouldn't exist.
It's about hope.
And in the case of Star Wars, it's also about family.
I have to hope for a better end for Ben than Anakin. And I have to hope that Luke is the Jedi Master he failed to be as a Force Ghost.

@PalmettoBlue

I haven't seen Wonder Woman- but I defiantly will check it out.  

I read a lot of books - fantasy/paranormal/Si-Fi... and I love complicated star-crossed lover themes.
I also have a thing for dark tormented heroes/villains - the problem is, this is Star Wars - and I don't know if they will go down this road.
Many people already complained about how Kylo is unredeemable after he killed Han- don't know how they would feel about having him a happy ending after what he did at the end of TLJ.
And for whatever reason they didn't show enough of Ben's backstory for the average viewer to root for him - or did they? I was afraid to check the reaction outside of this board?

If this was a rather dark tv-show like GoT... I would be less concerned because they don't follow the clean and wholesome moral codex bullish***

@Night Huntress

I think we have to remember a couple of things (and I'm talking to myself here as well):
1) He's the last Skywalker. Unless you want to kill the entire Skywalker family - he's got to survive or have children to carry on the bloodline.
2) Did he kill anyone we really cared about in TLJ? He was blustery AF. But who did he kill? Snoke. Good riddance to bad rubbish. And the PG. Granted, I was high on pain pills because I just had surgery on Tuesday, so I might have missed him personally killing a good guy. But even if he did - were they characters that we care about? I ask because this is fiction, and the only deaths that really matter in fiction are the ones that strike close to home.
3) He was fighting the darkness as a young adult. Luke freaked when he saw the depth of the darkness that he held within him, but to the best of our knowledge, Ben hadn't been out there, killing the neighborhood pets. He fought it. And now he's trying to embrace the inner bad guy because Luke couldn't control his own fear, and it's just not effing working.
4) They already went down this road, right? They are already taking chances. Let's hope they will take a chance on saving Ben Solo, the child of Leia and Han, the nephew of Luke, and the grandson of Anakin and Padme. It would be such a waste of a great character for them to kill him off.

He may not deserve redemption, but damn if I don't want him to be redeemed anyway.

PalmettoBlue wrote:

He may not deserve redemption, but damn if I don't want him to be redeemed anyway.

@PalmettoBlue

Oh, I agree! I agree so much! Not only because I wish for a happy ending Reylo- but because I really hate how his family dealt with all that... and I still can't forget to see him as the kid of Han and Leia. Two flawed but overall good people... and I don't believe in "bad seed"- nobody is born evil.