Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in IX

*This was initially a thread about the possibility of whether we see Kylo's tantrums occur in IX, it has naturally progressed to become more about Kylo/Ben himself and his evolving personality, so therefore as I could not find a specific thread for Kylo/Ben in IX. I have changed the title, so as not to create yet another thread *



( mods please merge if elsewhere more appropriate)

So, while ironing listening to Reylo inspired music on Spotify, my mind did its usual meanderings.   This time I was thinking about Kylo Ren's temper tantrums as you do while ironing!

Which leads me to my question (a bit like the kiss or not kiss thread) will Kylo have any more temper tantrums in IX?

After his complete breakdown of temper at Luke on Crait, has he spent out of tantrums. I'm going to clarify between him having a temper (raised voice)  and a tantrum. Because I think he will always have a quick temper, the tantrums are the extreme of that, eg getting his Saber out and slashing equipment, walls and helmet.

So, if you think he will have a tantrum, do you think it will be a one off, maybe more and what will cause him to lose it.

Or maybe you don't think he will have a tantrum, if so why not?

I have to be honest I'm not quite decided thus I'm wondering what others think.  (or maybe I'm the only one to think about it... Lol) One of the things that attracted me to Kylo's character was his temper tantrum. It peaked my curiosity. I enjoyed seeing how calm overall with Rey he was, like she soothed his soul.  

From what I recall, in TFA his tantrums were when something didn't go his way,  when he was told about the droid escaping, he smashed up the consul. Then when Rey escaped he smashed the walls.

Interestingly it's when he is hurting emotionally in TLJ, after Snoke berates him and calls him a child in a mask. His temper does get the better of him as reacts to Snoke, but full blown tantrum happens with the mask in the elevator. Then after Rey leaves him, he is so hurt emotionally, he goes on an almighty bender of a tantrum. Which makes the look he gives Rey all the more endearing, they poor boy just needs a hug so bad.

So that's 2 tantrums in each of the  previous films, that I can remember, have I left any out? ... Will we get anymore in IX?

Edit - to change title, to encompass all of Kylo/Ben's personality

He will certainly think of Rey during the time jump. He will think of her continuously as Anakin thought of Padme during their separation.
You remember Anakin's speech to padme on Naboo?

Anakin: From the moment I met you, all those years ago, not a day has gone by when I haven't thought of you. And now that I'm with you again... I'm in agony. The closer I get to you, the worse it gets. The thought of not being with you- I can't breath.

Anakin: If you are suffering as much as I am, please tell me.

Anakin: You're asking me to be rational. That is something that I know I cannot do. Believe me, I wish I could just wish away my feelings, but I can't

His personal feelings will meet the goals of the first order therefore he will be capricious
How temperament ...well depends on who will face. He is reckless like all Skywalkers,   a lot of anger in him, like all Skywalker
In episode VII Kylo was a child, in episode VIII was a  teenager with high hormones and in this last episode he should become an adult, I hope so

I think he will still have them- attenuated maybe. Nothing like what he did after Rey left him through... more like little outbursts mostly against Hux

After rereading some of TFA script today, I went into TFA board to look something up, and ended up finding a thread about Temper Tantrums  specifically dealing with those in TFA.
http://reylo.skyforum.net/t417-the-temper-tantrums

It makes for an interesting read, for example should we be calling them tantrums at all. Since the connotation implies a  spoilt child like quality. It's a good point to think upon actually , as I don't see Kylo acting out like a spoilt child, and actually if I read that Kylo is a whiny brat in online articles I get quite cross about it. So it's given me pause for thought, but when I call them tantrums, I'm thinking of the pain and rage he's feeling, due to the pressure and abuse he's had from Snoke, which I relate to, it took me back to an incident where I had my own tantrum many many years ago when I was 16 in reaction to an abusive situation. The rage was all consuming, never had it to that degree since, but I think that's why I relate to Kylo's character so much, and looking forward to his redemption.

Night Huntress wrote:I think he will still have them- attenuated maybe. Nothing like what he did after Rey left him through... more like little outbursts mostly against Hux

@Night Huntress

kylo is taking taste in torturing Hux

@Teo oswald

naaahh, that's not really torturing... just like a little claps now and then

I guess we see a more mature Kylo/Ben in IX- so his tantrums will be reduced to a minimum. I hope we see a more sarcastic or even funny side of him.

Teo oswald wrote:

Night Huntress wrote:I think he will still have them- attenuated maybe. Nothing like what he did after Rey left him through... more like little outbursts mostly against Hux

@Night Huntress

kylo is taking taste in torturing Hux

@Teo oswald

Kylo's totally playing with fire here, lol. Hux's time is coming.

I don't think we're going to see another "tantrum" actually. I think we're basically going to see lonely and depressed Kylo, right from the outset of IX. No more energy for tantrums.

@nickandnora

surely he will be depressed and lonely, as I said Kylo will think of Rey all the time  , inside his head there is  her now .
  he will not put the needs of the first order before his own, his personal interests will come first and this is a whim he did it with Luke and he will do it with Rey too

nickandnora wrote:

Teo oswald wrote:

Night Huntress wrote:I think he will still have them- attenuated maybe. Nothing like what he did after Rey left him through... more like little outbursts mostly against Hux

@Night Huntress

kylo is taking taste in torturing Hux

@Teo oswald

Kylo's totally playing with fire here, lol. Hux's time is coming.

I don't think we're going to see another "tantrum" actually. I think we're basically going to see lonely and depressed Kylo, right from the outset of IX. No more energy for tantrums.

@nickandnora
Yes to the Bolded.

That's my gut feeling, I've not really given any predictions on the prediction thread yet. I think it's more I have a list of things I'd like to see, so it's clouding my judgement regarding predictions. But... I can see him totally moody, depressed at the beginning. I mean he's supreme leader, but what does that mean in reality for Kylo. Nothing without the belonging he longs for with Rey. I think he has a lot to process, and he's going to be reliving all that's happened to him. Killing his father which split him to the bone, killing Snoke finally being free from the abuse, then musing on his intimate connection with Rey, which probably is in temporary  lock down. I think I'd be depressed too.  


I know this won't be a popular thought, but I'd actually like to see him in a mask again at least once, not because I don't want to see AD 's wonderful expressive face, but I like to see him striding around with it on, there's just something about him doing that,  that sends shivers up my spine I do think it would show him reverting to hiding behind the mask, therefore keeping his moody thoughts to himself and therefore shutting himself off from everyone, which will just perpetuate his loneliness.

Will this state of mind lead him to another tantrum? Hmm,   I'm beginning to be inclined to agree with @"NightHuntress" that it will be more tempered, and definitely Hux will be on the receiving line.  

When we saw the two stormtroopers turn around and double back in TFA, when he was smashing the cell where Rey had been. Everyone in his immediate vicinity will be giving him a wide berth.  I think everyone will be keeping even more of a low profile around him. I can imagine them taking it in turns if anyone has to take a message to him..."it's your turn to go" -
"NO, I went last time! "  

He better. Opening scene.

Let The Past Die wrote:

nickandnora wrote:

Teo oswald wrote:

Night Huntress wrote:I think he will still have them- attenuated maybe. Nothing like what he did after Rey left him through... more like little outbursts mostly against Hux

@Night Huntress

kylo is taking taste in torturing Hux

@Teo oswald

Kylo's totally playing with fire here, lol. Hux's time is coming.

I don't think we're going to see another "tantrum" actually. I think we're basically going to see lonely and depressed Kylo, right from the outset of IX. No more energy for tantrums.

@nickandnora
Yes to the Bolded.

That's my gut feeling, I've not really given any predictions on the prediction thread yet. I think it's more I have a list of things I'd like to see, so it's clouding my judgement regarding predictions. But... I can see him totally moody, depressed at the beginning. I mean he's supreme leader, but what does that mean in reality for Kylo. Nothing without the belonging he longs for with Rey. I think he has a lot to process, and he's going to be reliving all that's happened to him. Killing his father which split him to the bone, killing Snoke finally being free from the abuse, then musing on his intimate connection with Rey, which probably is in temporary  lock down. I think I'd be depressed too.  
:

@Let The Past Die
You know, it also occurs to me that a Kylo Ren who is in full-on depressive "I don't give a s*** anymore, seriously" mode is convenient for the plot because the rebellion obviously needs to take hold on other planets seeing as the Resistance is currently like 30 people. But if the Supreme Leader has basically been locked in his room all, "Go away, leave me alone" this whole time without actually doing anything, that's probably what allows the Resistance to effectively be reborn. Until Hux basically gets wind of what's going on out there in the galaxy and is like "Enough is enough" and usurps power.

Hello to all. I write with the phone. I can not tag or mention anyone. But I would tag all of you. Yesterday I saw both episodes again. First TFA then TLJ. Guys how many sadness. My heart was devastated. 4 hours of film. Maximum 40 minutes of Reylo interactions. But my heart was only in those 40 minutes. The sadness of Kylo Ren's character is comparable only to Rey's hunger and loneliness. If they don’t end together, Star War will not make sense. Having seen the two episodes together. I noticed. In TFA Kylo Ren is really evil. He is an almost stupid character. I laughed a lot in his fits of rage. Each time they show the soldiers who are far away for fear of his fits of anger. He always destroys everything. Become sensitive and dramatic only in the father scene. The moment is the center of TFA. He can not kill his father. He asks his father for help. Then comes Rey and he knows that she makes him weak. It is the sacrifice of his father that makes him grow and more weak again....

In TlJ Kylo it is very often Ben. His face is sweeter. If we notice the makeup at the beginning it is made up white with eyes markedly dark as to hide its beauty. But in TLJ the actor's face is less and less white and Adam's beauty is increasingly evident. I remember reading somewhere that Anakin had to be beautiful because it represented Padme's love. I think in the next episode I will bring a fan for Adam's appearances. So returning to the facts. Kylo is always sweeter with Rey. I would say it is more than an attraction. It seems the emotion of the first love. His shots of anger diminish. In the first he destroys his mask. It is a metaphor. He is no longer a child in a mask.

The second shot of anger is the one with the uncle. If the uncle trusted him, things would have been different. There wouldn’t have been Snoke. He would not have spent a life misunderstood. And yes, Rey would have been his girl. He hates his uncle because he feels responsible for his failure. In the throne room he is angry with Rey, but he is a real fury. He believes he is right. She does not listen to him. He tells her to let her go. His only purpose is to have Rey close. He can not believe it's going differently. But the most important thing. It's like we see it in the last scene. Kneeling defeated. He lost everything he loved. In his eyes that watch the dice fade away we read regret is repentance. Maybe it's all lost? Now hi isn’t Anakin going to put the mask forever. But he is enveloped in light. Look at Rey and hope returns. He will never make the same mistake again.

He killed Han and did not kill Rey. Lesson learned . His bad teacher and his good teacher are dead. He no longer has anyone who tells him how it should be. He is free. He has discovered that he is able to love and knows ... in the universe someone can love him. He will no longer make the same mistakes. Basically I expect that in episode IX we are surprised by logical discourses, intelligence and thoughtful choices. I expect him become a man worthy of Rey's love.

I'm going give this one a "probably not"? You can't match the tantrum of the century that was built over TLJ. That ship has now passed, IMO. It's frustrated, depressed Renperor to fully shattered delusions from here on out. He'll likely start off wanting to believe in the choices he made, but was already beginning to realize that he was wrong at the end of VIII.

I'd be perfectly fine with a depressed Renperor who isn't in the mood to do anything big with his power, because that would also mean less blood on Kylo's hands and an easier road to redemption. I think some haters are expecting him to be in full on galactic destruction mode, so it would be great for IX to subvert that expectation based on how regretful he looked in his last force bond scene.

I'll be fine with regretful and sad Kylo/Ben at the very beginning but I don't want him spending most of the movie being depressed and passive - I want him bada** not in an evil destructive way, but in trying to actually do something with his power.

nickandnora wrote:
@Let The Past Die
You know, it also occurs to me that a Kylo Ren who is in full-on depressive "I don't give a s*** anymore, seriously" mode is convenient for the plot because the rebellion obviously needs to take hold on other planets seeing as the Resistance is currently like 30 people. But if the Supreme Leader has basically been locked in his room all, "Go away, leave me alone" this whole time without actually doing anything, that's probably what allows the Resistance to effectively be reborn. Until Hux basically gets wind of what's going on out there in the galaxy and is like "Enough is enough" and usurps power.

@nickandnora

I like your thinking about it being a good plot point.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:I'm going give this one a "probably not"? You can't match the tantrum of the century that was built over TLJ. That ship has now passed, IMO. It's frustrated, depressed Renperor to fully shattered delusions from here on out. He'll likely start off wanting to believe in the choices he made, but was already beginning to realize that he was wrong at the end of VIII.

@FrolickingFizzgig

It's because of the tantrum of the century, I started this thread in the first place, to me it's like he has exhausted himself and spent all the emotion he has built up. It looks as if the general consensus is gearing towards a more depressed Kylo, at least in the beginning.

rawpowah wrote:I'd be perfectly fine with a depressed Renperor who isn't in the mood to do anything big with his power, because that would also mean less blood on Kylo's hands and an easier road to redemption. I think some haters are expecting him to be in full on galactic destruction mode, so it would be great for IX to subvert that expectation based on how regretful he looked in his last force bond scene.

@rawpowah

I hadn't really thought about how some haters would expect him to be in full destruction mode. I like the idea of perhaps what the GA expects, to be the opposite. Yes he looked so regretful at the end   if I saw someone looking like that URL, I'd be giving them a huge hug.

Night Huntress wrote:I'll be fine with regretful and sad Kylo/Ben at the very beginning but I don't want him spending most of the movie being depressed and passive - I want him bada** not in an evil destructive way, but in trying to actually do something with his power.

@Night Huntress
I suppose a lot depends on how quick they introduce Leia's death, if he's already in a depressed state, will it make him worse?

I'm torn in my mind with them telling us about Leia's in the opening crawl, or giving us her funeral. I hope it's the latter, and I hope it becomes a catalyst for Kylo, and Rey. I can see Huxley using it to his advantage.
Something big will be needed to shake Kylo out of a depressed state, to move him towards his redemption.

giaciak2 wrote:Hello to all. I write with the phone. I can not tag or mention anyone. But I would tag all of you. Yesterday I saw both episodes again. First TFA then TLJ. Guys how many sadness. My heart was devastated. 4 hours of film. Maximum 40 minutes of Reylo interactions. But my heart was only in those 40 minutes. The sadness of Kylo Ren's character is comparable only to Rey's hunger and loneliness. If they don’t end together, Star War will not make sense. Having seen the two episodes together. I noticed. In TFA Kylo Ren is really evil. He is an almost stupid character. I laughed a lot in his fits of rage. Each time they show the soldiers who are far away for fear of his fits of anger. He always destroys everything. Become sensitive and dramatic only in the father scene. The moment is the center of TFA. He can not kill his father. He asks his father for help. Then comes Rey and he knows that she makes him weak. It is the sacrifice of his father that makes him grow and more weak again....

In TlJ Kylo it is very often Ben. His face is sweeter. If we notice the makeup at the beginning it is made up white with eyes markedly dark as to hide its beauty. But in TLJ the actor's face is less and less white and Adam's beauty is increasingly evident. I remember reading somewhere that Anakin had to be beautiful because it represented Padme's love. I think in the next episode I will bring a fan for Adam's appearances. So returning to the facts. Kylo is always sweeter with Rey. I would say it is more than an attraction. It seems the emotion of the first love. His shots of anger diminish. In the first he destroys his mask. It is a metaphor. He is no longer a child in a mask.


He killed Han and did not kill Rey. Lesson learned . His bad teacher and his good teacher are dead. He no longer has anyone who tells him how it should be. He is free. He has discovered that he is able to love and knows ...  in the universe someone can love him. He will no longer make the same mistakes. Basically I expect that in episode IX we are surprised by logical discourses, intelligence and thoughtful choices. I expect him become a man worthy of Rey's love.

@giaciak2

We have seen Kylo evolve over the two films. It's been a literal stripping away of clothes and mask, from that first scene we saw him in on Jakku. He has had his emotions stripped away too. The seemingly confident apprentice  (like a facade) who struck Lor San Tekka down at the beginning, to seeing him describe himself as being  pulled to the light, others describe him as conflicted, torn apart, split to the bone because of Han's death He has grown weaker to the dark side, even his huge tantrum of the century didn't send him further to the dark side, not from that end shot we have of his face.



Kylo  is used to putting on a mask, literally and figuratively,  now the literal mask has gone, I I'm in two minds whether him striding around with a facade of confidence, but in private, sort of sitting with his head in his hands. Or just shutting himself away from everyone. In either scenario he is just a tormented soul after all that's happened.

Night Huntress wrote:I'll be fine with regretful and sad Kylo/Ben at the very beginning but I don't want him spending most of the movie being depressed and passive - I want him bada** not in an evil destructive way, but in trying to actually do something with his power.

@Night Huntress

OK, so I'm not sure how popular this will be on this board, but from a story standpoint, and from the standpoint of how I personally see the character, I don't want him bad*** (not even in a good way) because I think he's a lousy bad***. Nor do I think I want to see him do something with his power, because I don't actually think Kylo Ren has EVER been about power. That's why the ending of the last film was so damn sad, because boy is NOT a leader. He's a sad angry boy who's so embroiled in his family drama and other emotions that he can't even see the forest for the trees. His entire quest these past two films to find Luke has been completely borne out of the fact that his uncle hurt him, just like his tantrum at the Resistance at the end was less about ANYTHING political and more about targeting the symbolic body that stole the loyalty of a person he loves away from him AGAIN (Leia, then Rey).

So, in that vein, gimme depressed and passive Kylo Ren. Give me the longest, bleakest, darkest night of the soul in IX. Whoever mentioned A Christmas Carol up above? Yeah, *that's* what I want. Give me angsty Kylo being visited by three force spirits (I'm thinking Obi-wan, Luke, and finally Anakin) and then MORE angst before the dawn. I'm not saying he's not going to do anything ultimately redeemable, or awesome, I just don't think it's going to be anything inherently political, nor do I necessarily think it's going to have anything to do with the FO or taking it down from the inside, or being some kind of double agent for the Resistance (it'll probably be something about balancing the Force and/or doing something totally selfless and sacrificial, if I had to guess).

JMO.

I don't know about a full-blown tantrum, he can't really beat his spectacular meltdown at the end of TLJ, complete with the obligatory Skywalker NOOOOOO!

I can see him start out in a place where he's constantly on edge and everyone in the FO is absolutely terrified of him snapping so they all tiptoe around him, and maybe he'll throw Hux around.

Let The Past Die wrote:(I had no idea where to post this, I kept dithering,  so mods please merge if elsewhere more appropriate)

So, while ironing listening to Reylo inspired music on Spotify, my mind did its usual meanderings.   This time I was thinking about Kylo Ren's temper tantrums as you do while ironing!

Which leads me to my question (a bit like the kiss or not kiss thread) will Kylo have any more temper tantrums in IX?

After his complete breakdown of temper at Luke on Crait, has he spent out of tantrums. I'm going to clarify between him having a temper (raised voice)  and a tantrum. Because I think he will always have a quick temper, the tantrums are the extreme of that, eg getting his Saber out and slashing equipment, walls and helmet.

So, if you think he will have a tantrum, do you think it will be a one off, maybe more and what will cause him to lose it.

Or maybe you don't think he will have a tantrum, if so why not?

I have to be honest I'm not quite decided thus I'm wondering what others think.  (or maybe I'm the only one to think about it... Lol) One of the things that attracted me to Kylo's character was his temper tantrum. It peaked my curiosity. I enjoyed seeing how calm overall with Rey he was, like she soothed his soul.  

From what I recall, in TFA his tantrums were when something didn't go his way,  when he was told about the droid escaping, he smashed up the consul. Then when Rey escaped he smashed the walls.

Interestingly it's when he is hurting emotionally in TLJ, after Snoke berates him and calls him a child in a mask. His temper does get the better of him as reacts to Snoke, but full blown tantrum happens with the mask in the elevator. Then after Rey leaves him, he is so hurt emotionally, he goes on an almighty bender of a tantrum. Which makes the look he gives Rey all the more endearing, they poor boy just needs a hug so bad.

So that's 2 tantrums in each of the  previous films, that I can remember, have I left any out? ... Will we get anymore in IX?

Edit - spelling

@Let The Past Die

I think it would be more fun to see Rey have a temper tantrum.

Hi @Let The Past Die and everyone. What a great thread! I love to focus in on a particular thing I like to gather together my thoughts and the thoughts of others. And what an interesting question!!
I’ve enjoyed reading everyone’s thoughts on this.. the idea of depressed Kylo/Ben is a new idea to play with! I agree there is no bigger temper tantrum that Crait!

Will Kylo/Ben have temper tantrums in IX? – I’ve gathered together my current thoughts such as they are!

I tend to view the tantrums in TFA and TLJ more as emotional outbursts because it is not just about anger, there is other emotions like fear and Sadness in there too. He feels very strong emotions, and he tries to suppress them. So he is often primed and ready to go off.. lol.

Anyway, for me, the emotional outbursts are a way of coping that has developed because of a few major things (anyone identify any I miss? do tell!).
I think there are three main causes:
1) Traumatic history – I’m pretty sure I don’t need to explain this. But Kylo/Ben’s relationship with his past and how it has shaped him to this point are central to his character and his current behaviour.
2) Snoke has intentionally stoked Kylo/Ben’s rage, and kept all his old wounds open – never letting them heal. This served a purpose for Snoke- kept Kylo/Ben weak and able to be manipulated.. and has kept Kylo/Ben trapped in his past in a sense.
3) The dark side – being deeply immersed in the dark side, trying to extinguish the light – has left Kylo/Ben experiencing extreme emotions which interact the other two causes (A synergy maybe) – fanning the flames of Kylo/Ben’s rage even higher. So they keep on causing him pain.

Its not just Kylo/Ben having a bad temper. So, if these causes change it’s likely this can support change for him in IX.
I’m thinking at the end of TLJ, with Kylo/Ben’s lack of anger in his final scene – we have seen a hint that these emotional outbursts and/or temper tantrums may be starting to come to an end and that this is where it is headed in IX.
- Snoke is now out of the picture and no longer in Kylo/Ben’s head reopening old wounds. Finally Kylo/Ben can start to heal. And, as Kylo/Ben gets stronger and more balanced, he will no longer feel the need to suppress the emotions he has not had the safety, the space nor the resources to deal with up to this point in the story. When those emotions are no longer suppressed, they will diminish in their intensity.
- The confrontation with Luke has given Kylo/Ben a chance to start confronting his past – and to find healing. I don’t think Kylo/Ben accepted Luke’s apology (at all lol) but I think it will be food for thought and forgiveness and healing are a process. I think this process has started.. Well.. actually it probably started when Han Solo confronted Ben and said he missed him.. so this confrontation with Luke is another step in that process.
- The dark side influence is being balanced out by his continual pull to the light, his killing of Snoke – choosing to save Rey’s life. I’m guessing the force bond connection with Rey will also help Kylo/Ben to find balance – and he will be less able to resist the call the light (not that he will become a lighter sider, but that he will let in the light and become balanced).
The dark side influence is also connected to Kylo/Ben’s plans to become Supreme Leader – Yes I am not someone who thinks he had no desire for leadership or power. I think he did very much. However – now he has it, I think he’s going to find it isn’t what he wanted at all.. thus, the influence of the dark side and reliance on it for his power will diminish and become more balanced.

Oh dear, it seems everything keeps coming back to balance for me. Rofl. But overall I do get the impression that balance will mean less extremes in emotions. Healthy expression.

I think it’s possible we’ll see more temper tantrums, but I think as a result of Kylo/Ben’s growth we will see them diminish in frequency and intensity.

One other thought about all this… the talk of Kylo/Ben being depressed got me thinking about the stages of grief.
The five stages of grief are: Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, & Acceptance.
In a sense, Kylo/Ben has much to grieve all the loss in his life, and he has never had the space (as I mentioned above) to do this. It could be that the story will portray his growth in IX as him dealing with the many losses he has experienced right through his whole life. He has much to heal…
It’s like the denial was punctuated by intense anger in TFA (as he denied how much his past hurts him), in TLJ he moved on to fully let out that anger when facing both Snoke and Luke. We saw some bargaining starting in TLJ, when Kylo thought if Rey joins him they can create something new!
But no.. not happening.. so he went back into the anger again on crait, but some a glimpse of depression at the end of TLJ.
At the start of IX, we may see some more bargaining – maybe Kylo tries to bargain with the force in some way.. especially because of the existence of the force bond.. but I think this could quickly move into depression.. and pining for Rey and their connection.

The five stages of grief are especially possible to see portrayed if we consider that Leia is likely to die in IX too.
Eventually, Kylo/Ben will have worked through is past and his loss and we’ll get acceptance. Kylo will accept his past, heal and no longer aim to kill it, destroy everything and suppress his pain.
I don’t know if this is how they’ll go but it’s possible.

For me, heading into IX, Kylo/Ben is now set up to be free to heal the past, let in some more of the light, better manage his emotions, and to forge a healthy relationship with Rey that is loving in the full sense. [that offer of his IMHO was not loving in a full sense. But here is not the place for me to expand!]

Depends on what you mean by tantrum. Because that whole scene with Luke where he yells at him is 100% a tantrum. Granted it's a warranted one. But you tell me how easily you manage to stay in controlled adult mode whenever you're around the older relatives who manage to push your buttons (or contemplated murdering you in your sleep b/c you were going through your angry and depressed teenager phase). I'm not joking when I said after my first viewing that I sat there, surrounded by families, cringing because that entire scene was two armies forced to watch an ugly fight at a family reunion. Ben shows up drunk raging after his girlfriend breaks up with him, so Uncle Luke goes out on the lawn to distract/talk to him while Mom ditches out through the back door where his ex can pick her up in the alley.

I'm just sorry we never got any further detail on the raw explosive powah. Because we thought it could mean Ben being in a bad mood literally meant stuff blowing up around him. But uh, he's progressed to something more constructive? From trashing consoles and chairs to yelling at his uncle. The 'tantrums' were about his failure to procure the map and 'fulfill the destiny' that Snoke was pushing him towards in finding/killing Luke. It's self-directed versus Vader force choking various subordinates because they keep messing up his own personal interests (re-insert myself in my child's life) agenda. But Snoke and Luke are gone now as distant father figures who make him feel inadequate, so we'll see if he keeps having fits as part of his "Villain who is terrible at his job" character arc.

nickandnora wrote:
OK, so I'm not sure how popular this will be on this board, but from a story standpoint, and from the standpoint of how I personally see the character, I don't want him bad*** (not even in a good way) because I think he's a lousy bad***. Nor do I think I want to see him do something with his power, because I don't actually think Kylo Ren has EVER been about power. That's why the ending of the last film was so damn sad, because boy is NOT a leader. He's a sad angry boy who's so embroiled in his family drama and other emotions that he can't even see the forest for the trees. His entire quest these past two films to find Luke has been completely borne out of the fact that his uncle hurt him, just like his tantrum at the Resistance at the end was less about ANYTHING political and more about targeting the symbolic body that stole the loyalty of a person he loves away from him AGAIN (Leia, then Rey).

So, in that vein, gimme depressed and passive Kylo Ren. Give me the longest, bleakest, darkest night of the soul in IX. Whoever mentioned A Christmas Carol up above? Yeah, *that's* what I want. Give me angsty Kylo being visited by three force spirits (I'm thinking Obi-wan, Luke, and finally Anakin) and then MORE angst before the dawn. I'm not saying he's not going to do anything ultimately redeemable, or awesome, I just don't think it's going to be anything inherently political, nor do I necessarily think it's going to have anything to do with the FO or taking it down from the inside, or being some kind of double agent for the Resistance (it'll probably be something about balancing the Force and/or doing something totally selfless and sacrificial, if I had to guess).

JMO.

@nickandnora

maybe "bada**" is the wrong word- but I think he did some pretty cool things in TLJ- blowing-up Poe's X-Wing or killing Snoke! fighting the PG. THAT was bada** in my opinion. And with power I don't mean necessarily his power as Supreme Leader...more like with his force powers.

And I agree with you that he never really was about power- that's why I was very confused when I first heard about Renperor after the first pre-screenings of TLJ.
I don't think he enjoys commanding people around and wielding power like Snoke or Palpatine. But now that he do has this position I hope we won't see him as a depressed, pathetic being. I'm tired of him being constantly the victim- I know he is...but he needs to overcome that and move on.

But we're getting off topic here... so I personally do believe he will have tantrums- but nothing like in the previous movies.

I'd just spent ages cutting quotes, highlighting portions, adding my thoughts, only to go and lose the lot.... Bah!
So a quick shortened recap of what stood out to me
@DeeBee

The stages of grief you mentioned, I think I was subconsciously thinking about it, so when I read your point, I thought... yes exactly that!
@snufkin your point about the two sides basically watching an ugly fight at a family reunion was absolutely spot on.

@Night Huntress Although I think we'll see Kylo depressed, I agree that I don't want him in this state for long, enough at the beginning of IX to see his vulnerability, but then we need him to be moved to action. How that happens is more I guess for the predictions thread... Lol


It has been interesting reading all the thoughts on Kylo's tantrums, it seems we have dug deeper into Kylo's multilayered personality, from the tantrums, to his obvious depression and how will his state of mind affect how he will act.

I'm wondering whether to change the title to include more of Kylo's personality and our thoughts to how he will evolve/act going into IX.

I just don't know what I'd rename it to, anyone got any ideas of new title names? Or shall I just keep with temper tantrums despite how the discussions are naturally evolving.

the depression will be there but not for the whole movie. If they show us a moment of vulnerability to the news of Leia's death, it's fine with me. but I do not know if we will see him ... instead of depression there will be regret. Was RJ saying that Kylo, while observing Rey on Falcon, is regretting his choices ?

@DeeBee
The five stages of grief are: Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, & Acceptance.

This quote is very beautiful!!!!

I think it can be adapted to both characters.

Kylo, ​​in several points, urges Rey to accept and admit her past.

Rey says to Kylo in the elevator, I will help you but since TFA I always see Kylo help Rey ... Even when he tells her the brutal truth about her parents. He often insists with her "admit it. Say that."

For absurd it is just what he needs. Someone who helps him to admit how pain, loss and disappointment have led him to the dark side. Side that does not really belong to him, just as light does not belong to him. But it is admitting who we are that we can grow and improve ourselves.

Rey unwittingly, was the cause of the end of all his relations with the past. It is because of Rey and BB-8 that Han finds BEN .
It's because of Rey that Kylo finds out where Luke is and confronts him.
And again because of Rey who kills Snoke.
Rey practically smashes his every torment ... in a sense it is Rey who leads him to kill his past, without wanting to.

I expect Rey become aware of how important her presence is to helping poor Ben.

It is possible that both should face the depressive phase alone.

What do you think ?.

Will they face the depressive phase alone? . Or will they help each other to get acceptance of their past together?