Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in IX

*This was initially a thread about the possibility of whether we see Kylo's tantrums occur in IX, it has naturally progressed to  become more about Kylo/Ben himself and his evolving personality, so therefore as I could not find a specific thread for Kylo/Ben in IX. I have changed the title, so as not to create yet another thread *


I've been enjoying reading the predictions thread, I've yet to contribute, not sure why. Maybe because I read such good ideas, I keep changing my mind... Lol. The only constant I have is that I want Kylo/Ben's redemption and for him and Rey to have the ending of belonging to one another.

I digress, the point is the prediction thread gas made me try to culminate some thoughts of my own, thus I put pen to paper and started out with all the main characters names, what I know about them, what lines they've said and to whom.   So I have a long list for Kylo, and something that just stood out to me.

When Kylo says to say "you have no place in  this story" it occurred to me,  well actually he has no place in his own story, at the end of TLJ, beginning of IX. We have spoken above how he's in this regretful state, probably leading him to be depressed especially after the major meltdown down he's just had. He may be SL, the crown position but what a very lonely place for him, I don't think we'll see him sit on the throne literally, but figuratively I picture him in this position twiddling his thumbs so to speak. With Hux making all the decisions, while working on undermining and to try to become top dog himself. I see Hux with a vision, with Kylo I see him lost. His statement about starting a new order with Rey is in the right direction, not necessarily with the order, but something new. But as Rian has said Kylo needs to deal with his past first, before he can move forward.

So although I still think in the beginning of IX, we might see Kylo in this somewhat depressed state, I hope it won't last very long, that something moves him to decisive action. Now whether that will be, by hearing about Leia's death,  a call from Rey, or Hux turning on him quickly, or something else altogether remains to be seen.

On a side note, I've gradually found myself thinking of Kylo as Ben, the more I think of how he progresses personality wise in IX, I don't think he is a split personality, to me he is Ben, hiding behind the mask of Kylo. But I'm so used to actually referring to him as Kylo, I don't know whether to just stop with the Kylo and just call him Ben, like Rey does...lol (one of the things I'm curious about for IX, is whether Rey continues to call him Ben, or goes back to Kylo initially when speaking about him) The end vision of him, his emotion all bared for us to see is 100% Ben.

Rey has no place in this story, she entered the resistance without knowing it. in episode IX instead, she has a place in this story, she has a purpose. she has her belonging on some ways. she knows who she is, Ben instead is destroyed. he has no real belonging, we only know he wants to destroy everything. he is tormented and is not happy. rule without a purpose because at first he thought he would reign with Rey
the castle has collapsed and he is on his knees.
you know how much I love Kylo Ren as a character but I want to see how they will change his mind. he is in an unstable position.

@Teo oswald

True, so for a short time they both have had no place in the story, thus both are integral and will find their place/belonging and are The Story.

I know what I mean... Lol

@Let The Past Die

exactly the background of Kylo has always been in free fall. regardless if he is a leader or not. he has made no progress, he is not happy and complete. Rey instead started from a difficult situation to reach a purpose. she's sad, that's true but compared to kylo she made a change. Kylo, , despite having killed Snoke and taking the lead, is always tormented. Anakin also had a development. For a while he was sad then he met love and then he fell into the darkness.
but everything that happened to Kylo has its own logic. JJ and RJ are not stupid. that's why people immediately think that kylo will die in the IX

they lead you to believe this

Teo oswald wrote:Rey has no place in this story, she entered the resistance without knowing it. in episode IX instead, she has a place in this story, she has a purpose. she has her belonging on some ways. she knows who she is, Ben instead is destroyed. he has no real belonging, we only know he wants to destroy everything. he is tormented and is not happy. rule without a purpose because at first he thought he would reign with Rey
the castle has collapsed and he is on his knees.
you know how much I love Kylo Ren as a character but I want to see how they will change his mind. he is in an unstable position.

@Teo Oswald

For me when Kylo says "she doesn't have a place in this story", he means: you're not a Skywalker, you're not a princess, you're not yet a Jedi, for Snoke you were not even worth living. But you're all for me.

And ...

Also responds to our friends ANTIS.
From Kylo to Antis: REY is nobody, she's not my twin, she's not my sister, she's not my cousin, she's not relative of mine, she's not a princess looking for a crown. Because she has another place in this story. She will be my wife !!!!!!

giaciak2 wrote:For me when Kylo says "she doesn't have a place in this story", he means: you're not a Skywalker, you're not a princess, you're not yet a Jedi, for Snoke you were not even worth living. But you're all for me.

And ...  

Also responds to our friends ANTIS.
From Kylo to Antis: REY is nobody, she's not my twin, she's not my sister, she's not my cousin, she's not relative of mine, she's not a princess looking for a crown. Because she has another place in this story. She will be my wife !!!!!!

@giaciak2

Why do you say that Kylo is not making progress?
Tuesday I saw TFA first then TLJ. Kylo in the first part of TFA makes people die laughing. It destroys everything every time it is contradicted. He is incredibly presumptuous and full of himself.

In TLJ, he practically melts every time he sees Rey. Falls in love. It destroys the mask. He admits to being a monster ("I've committed crimes I'm a bad person" - it also wants to say that he has discernment between good and evil). He strips his mask, t-shirt, gloves. They are all metaphors of how he is taking away those layers that separate Kylo from BEN.

Just to rejoice I remind you that not yet has not removed shoes and pants ... I suppose that especially after the last garment ... we would have BEN. Could be a metaphor?
Seriously. Could this be the last metaphor ?. That true love gives you the "power" to change and undress from the past. To be a better person. Through your choices.
Could be ... I don't know ...
Or it may be that I'm reading too many fanfictions

I thought by "this story", he meant her parents' story? No?

I feel like Kylo Ren peaked in his temper-tantrum rage at the end of The Last Jedi. I suspect anything that comes from here on in is pure despairing and wild rage. I agree he will be quite empty and depressed but I don't think the rage will be completely gone = it is part of his make-up and contributes to his overall passionate character.

I don't mind the odd Ren tantrum but Rey will help him find a need to control that part of himself.

I thought his “tantrums” were pretty much over by the end of TFA. In TLJ, what we saw was mainly rage.

If they’re sticking to the “coming of age” story for each installment, then he’s an adult in IX, so I doubt we’ll see any tantrums. And I think his face while kneeling during the last force bond was very revealing of where things are with him. I’m guessing we may see Depressed Kylo at the beginning of IX.

This has been brought up plenty of times before and probably shouldn't be brought up again, but I was googling some Reylo thing and in the search results were previews of the Collider forum (seriously, I actively try to avoid this kind of stuff and the internet just won't let me!) where I saw someone was talking about how Kylo is now very much space Hitler and there's no way for Rey to fall in love with him without sacrificing her character. This kind of thing has been said for years, but now some viewers are even more resolute than they were before TLJ. The ST and even SW as a whole is no longer about these people, or intended for them, or made for them, even if they don't yet realize it.

But when IX rolls around, there's going to be truckloads of dumb articles and videos and comment threads about how it's a disservice to both Rey and Kylo's characters, that it had no setup, that it makes no sense and has no purpose, that it somehow promotes fascism and is terrible for children and society as a whole, and so on and yada yada. Never mind that all of that is grossly untrue, and I am confident that JJ/Terrio will write the hell out of it and Adam/Daisy will act the hell out of it and we will all be doing happy dances of victory, joy, and glee. But SW fandom is already so unpleasant at times, and this forum here is really one of the few civil, intelligent corners of sanity (even though we're supposedly the crazy ones), and I'm not sure if I'm ready to handle two or more years of outrage raining from above and often aimed at us, it would seem. Or are some members who have been around the block more than I have now beyond this point?

californiagirl wrote:This has been brought up plenty of times before and probably shouldn't be brought up again, but I was googling some Reylo thing and in the search results were previews of the Collider forum (seriously, I actively try to avoid this kind of stuff and the internet just won't let me!) where I saw someone was talking about how Kylo is now very much space Hitler and there's no way for Rey to fall in love with him without sacrificing her character. This kind of thing has been said for years, but now some viewers are even more resolute than they were before TLJ. The ST and even SW as a whole is no longer about these people, or intended for them, or made for them, even if they don't yet realize it.

But when IX rolls around, there's going to be truckloads of dumb articles and videos and comment threads about how it's a disservice to both Rey and Kylo's characters, that it had no setup, that it makes no sense and has no purpose, that it somehow promotes fascism and is terrible for children and society as a whole, and so on and yada yada. Never mind that all of that is grossly untrue, and I am confident that JJ/Terrio will write the hell out of it and Adam/Daisy will act the hell out of it and we will all be doing happy dances of victory, joy, and glee. But SW fandom is already so unpleasant at times, and this forum here is really one of the few civil, intelligent corners of sanity (even though we're supposedly the crazy ones), and I'm not sure if I'm ready to handle two or more years of outrage raining from above and often aimed at us, it would seem. Or are some members who have been around the block more than I have now beyond this point?

@californiagirl

I will never stop finding this funny because nothing Kylo did in TLJ even TOUCHED the bad he did in TFA. And guess what, folks? Rey forgave him for that enough to cry over the smallest contact with him and then ship herself directly into danger just to help/save him and fulfill a future she saw herself having with him. If Rey could get past that and if Kylo wasn't "Hitler" after killing his own father, why on earth do these people think he's too far gone in TLJ?

You'd think they would learn after they claimed this same exact thing about Kylo at the end of TFA (he killed his father and is firmly on the dark side and is irredeemable now, Rey will never forgive him or get close to him) and were dead wrong in every way. And oh yes, prepare for the pieces about Reylo "ruining" Rey and being rushed and ridiculous once their romance is finalized in IX. I already see people complaining that it makes no sense for her to empathize with Kylo as much as she did in TLJ and is "out of character" for her. There are arguments to be made for that, sure, but for most of the loudest complainers all it really means is that they were angry or embarrassed that their headcanons and interpretations they were so certain of weren't real.

The whole thing makes me wonder how something like Avatar the Last Airbender would be interpreted today. "Zuko rejected redemption AGAIN and let Aang get hurt! He did it all to regain a powerful position in the Fire Nation and now he has it. Can't you see he's irredeemable now and will never turn himself around? It's over, he's the villain forever. He doesn't want redemption and will never get it."

californiagirl wrote:This has been brought up plenty of times before and probably shouldn't be brought up again, but I was googling some Reylo thing and in the search results were previews of the Collider forum (seriously, I actively try to avoid this kind of stuff and the internet just won't let me!) where I saw someone was talking about how Kylo is now very much space Hitler and there's no way for Rey to fall in love with him without sacrificing her character. This kind of thing has been said for years, but now some viewers are even more resolute than they were before TLJ. The ST and even SW as a whole is no longer about these people, or intended for them, or made for them, even if they don't yet realize it.

But when IX rolls around, there's going to be truckloads of dumb articles and videos and comment threads about how it's a disservice to both Rey and Kylo's characters, that it had no setup, that it makes no sense and has no purpose, that it somehow promotes fascism and is terrible for children and society as a whole, and so on and yada yada. Never mind that all of that is grossly untrue, and I am confident that JJ/Terrio will write the hell out of it and Adam/Daisy will act the hell out of it and we will all be doing happy dances of victory, joy, and glee. But SW fandom is already so unpleasant at times, and this forum here is really one of the few civil, intelligent corners of sanity (even though we're supposedly the crazy ones), and I'm not sure if I'm ready to handle two or more years of outrage raining from above and often aimed at us, it would seem. Or are some members who have been around the block more than I have now beyond this point?

@californiagirl

I know what you mean, @californiagirl. I've been bracing myself for all the outrage IX will undoubtedly cause because of this fandom's strange self-stoking vitriol...

But on the other hand, by that point we will have our beautiful complete love story that rounds out the saga of the Skywalkers, brings the OT and PT full circle, gives meaning to the OT characters' sacrifices, crowns Rey's achievements as the hero, and restores Ben Solo. I feel like once we have that story in our hot little hands, the rest of the fandom can burn itself down if it wants to. I will be reveling in the Star Wars I'd always wanted but never thought possible before I saw that wonderful bridal carry!  

I think a lot of people's issue is the taking of the Supreme Leader position of an obviously fascist organization, hence Space Hitler.

But I just watched those SWC podcasts on literature influences in Reylo and now I feel better. Really I gravitated to this fandom because it was the only corner of SW fandom as a whole that consistently made me feel good.

Agreed - the Reylo fandom is so intelligent and insightful if I do say so myself!

I just listened to SWC podcast finally today, about renporer verse benporer. As I was listening to the different views. A question came to mind triggered by one of the comments.
This isn't about which course he will take, more about the how.

We know how Kylo feels about the resistance, those traitors  murderers etc. My question is what is going to happen for Kylo to do an about turn of his views he has held.
I feel something  specific has to happen, to make him 'turn'  but what exactly?

Will it be by Hux trying to oust him? Or by Rey being in trouble and him going to help? Or will those core values Leia would probaly instilled in him while he was young start coming to the fire now he's SL?

I feel he needs to change his views not just because he loves Rey, and by changing is the only way to get her. I want him to see that turning is the right thing to do.

Any other ideas, or combination of ideas anyone?

Let The Past Die wrote:I just listened to SWC podcast finally today, about renporer verse benporer. As I was listening to the different views. A question came to mind triggered by one of the comments.
This isn't about which course he will take, more about the how.

We know how Kylo feels about the resistance, those traitors  murderers etc. My question is what is going to happen for Kylo to do an about turn of his views he has held.
I feel something  specific has to happen, to make him 'turn'  but what exactly?

Will it be by Hux trying to oust him? Or by Rey being in trouble and him going to help? Or will those core values Leia would probaly instilled in him while he was young start coming to the fire now he's SL?

I feel he needs to change his views not just because he loves Rey, and by changing is the only way to get her. I want him to see that turning is the right thing to do.

Any other ideas, or combination of ideas anyone?

@Let The Past Die

Maybe just a nice little chat with Grandpappy Force Ghost Anakin.

Let The Past Die wrote:I just listened to SWC podcast finally today, about renporer verse benporer. As I was listening to the different views. A question came to mind triggered by one of the comments.
This isn't about which course he will take, more about the how.

We know how Kylo feels about the resistance, those traitors  murderers etc. My question is what is going to happen for Kylo to do an about turn of his views he has held.
I feel something  specific has to happen, to make him 'turn'  but what exactly?

Will it be by Hux trying to oust him? Or by Rey being in trouble and him going to help? Or will those core values Leia would probaly instilled in him while he was young start coming to the fire now he's SL?

I feel he needs to change his views not just because he loves Rey, and by changing is the only way to get her. I want him to see that turning is the right thing to do.

Any other ideas, or combination of ideas anyone?

@Let The Past Die

I feel like it might be a combination of a lot of things (and in a specific order), but if I had to speculate...

1) Being depressed and all tantrumed out from the end of TLJ and therefore not really doing anything to harm the Resistance.
2) One more force bond session with Rey where *something* profound is said or happens (or at least, something profound to him).
3) Hux's coup. And guys, I really don't think it's going to be pretty. I really don't think it's just going to be a case of being ousted and then Kylo being able to find Rey or the Resistance and help them that way, etc. My guess is imprisonment. In fact, I'd wager that Rey isn't even going to *know* what's happened to him until Act III. But whatever Hux does to him, or threatens to do to Rey or the Resistance is going to be a huge, huge gamechanger I think.
4) Force ghost visits. Luke for sure, Anakin hopefully, and my wild guess is Obi-wan as well.
5) Rey making some kind of huge gesture or sacrifice *for him*. If this happens, I have this idea that it will cause him to unselfishly "let her go" (back to whatever greater good she could benefit).
6) Some kind of message from Leia beyond the grave is also going to play here as well.

@nickandnora If Hux pulls off a coup and manages to capture Kylo, I think our boy is in for some major unpleasantness because Hux will want to take out all the pent-up hatred and resentment on him. Which is naturally a classic villain mistake, because not doing a smart thing and killing their enemy straight away always comes back to bite them in the a**.

I'm sure that Kylo will reassess his life in a big way at some point, but I expect the initial big change to happen in some impulsive and/or abrupt fashion, and be very personal in nature.

Well, I wan't him to change and rethink his decisions before something like a coup happens- because then it seems he only leaves the FO because he has no choice... and I don't want him to be a damn victim in IX again. So please no capture, torture or whatever...he suffered enough imo

One comment I frequently see by people who think he's crossed the Rubicon (and typically were already in the "he's going to get eeevilller and die" camp) is "I can't imagine how he can redeem himself and get back on the good side after what he did." Which my immediate response was, what would've happened if he'd run off with Rey and left the FO in Hux's hands? He f**ked up with that power grab, but based on logic if Snoke is dead and he's gone, who does that leave in charge of the FO? The guy who already blew up an entire solar system and fired on unarmed transport ships doesn't seem like somebody you'd want to leave in charge of that organization.

@Starliteprism @nickandnora @Saracene @Night Huntress
I'm liking all the ideas from force ghosts to a coup from Hux.
I think my gut feeling is deep deep down, he knows which side he should be. ("I feel the pull to the light" ) it's only because of Snoke's long reaching  manipulation and abuse, that Kylo had for want of a better word brain washed by Snoke into believing the FO ideals. This pull to the light, his light side is resisting these ideals, so he is on his journey to turning from the dark.
Seeing how he blames his family for abandoning him, thus sending him into Snoke's waiting clutches,  again I wonder if Leia would have been around for IX, if that would have been instrumental in bringing Ben back. Killing his father, didn't work, rage at force projection didn't work. Seeing Leia at the end of TLJ seemingly give up hope on him, to me in that scene, it was the saddest point for Leia regarding her son, therefore things could only get better, the scene set up for Leia to once again find hope in IX. So I hope that however they deal with Leia in IX that somehow it sets some chain reaction for Kylo's path back.

But will it be one big thing, or a build up of many things that will make him turn? I'm enjoying reading how we've all got different takes on what we think.

snufkin wrote:One comment I frequently see by people who think he's crossed the Rubicon (and typically were already in the "he's going to get eeevilller and die" camp) is "I can't imagine how he can redeem himself and get back on the good side after what he did." Which my immediate response was, what would've happened if he'd run off with Rey and left the FO in Hux's hands? He f**ked up with that power grab, but based on logic if Snoke is dead and he's gone, who does that leave in charge of the FO? The guy who already blew up an entire solar system and fired on unarmed transport ships doesn't seem like somebody you'd want to leave in charge of that organization.

@snufkin

I was thinking why people come to the conclusion he is even more eviler at the end of IX - even though he didn't really DO so much bad things compared to TFA.
At my first viewing I was furious at Ben, too- it wasn't that he took over the FO...not even that he went after the Resistance- it was what he said during the attack.

Shall we hold until we clear them?
Kylo: No. The Resistance is in that mine. Push through (and he said that pretty coldly)

General Hux, advance. No quarter. No prisoners.

And the famous "I'll destroy her, and you, and all of it." line

Even after seeing him kneeling and crying with puppy eyes only minutes later- I was really conflicted at first...

Of course after processing and thinking about what happened it's clear he was having a nervous breakdown and didn't meant that literally.
But the GA and many fans don't look into it so deeply. So for them his behavior is a sign that he is truly evil now.

I also hope that his turn around doesn't happen just because Hux stages coup and he has no other choice.I wouldn't hate it and it's definitely a way to get a character to rethink their choice but I would prefer Kylo having all the power and now finally free of Snoke's influence and deciding on his own to give it up and that it wasn't worth it without being forced to.I'm not sure he'll ever be all about the resistance tho,I think he'll end up helping them and seeing the first order as the big evil but that his motivation will always be tied to Rey and maybe making amends to his family rather than believing in their cause.