Re: HAND SEX CONFIRMED - SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN - Celebration thread

[adamdrivershair]

I know Mark just latched onto the word "sexy" and went, "YOU KNOW WHAT ELSE IS SEXY?" since he loved that earlier moment joking around with Rian onstage. Bless Mark

[ZioRen]

The hilarious thing about Mark's comments is that Rian was talking about some deep stuff - the whole 'Let the Past Die' being an aspect of the movie but not the overall message you're supposed to take from it (I can't believe he had to explain this, it's hammered home in Luke/Ben's showdown that you can't kill the past however hard you try; it'll always haunt you and remain with you, literally if ForceGhost Luke comes back), and then Mark just butts in with no context whatsoever and starts talking about hand sex lol.

@Kylo Rey

B-but abusive Rian is secretly holding him at gunpoint to make him say that. Mark....bringing this up all on his own? Never!

[Kylo Rey]

The hilarious thing about Mark's comments is that Rian was talking about some deep stuff - the whole 'Let the Past Die' being an aspect of the movie but not the overall message you're supposed to take from it (I can't believe he had to explain this, it's hammered home in Luke/Ben's showdown that you can't kill the past however hard you try; it'll always haunt you and remain with you, literally if ForceGhost Luke comes back), and then Mark just butts in with no context whatsoever and starts talking about hand sex lol.

@Kylo Rey

B-but abusive Rian is secretly holding him at gunpoint to make him say that. Mark....bringing this up all on his own? Never!

@ZioRen

They tore RJ to shreds when he came out with the hand sex comment but with Mark? Not a peep. Instead they're twisting themselves into knots trying to justify their stupid conspiracy theories. Hypocrites the lot of them.

[californiagirl]

@snufkin Yes, there are an unfortunate number of people who believe JJ and Rian live on different planets in regards to SW (no pun intended). Even fans of TLJ sometimes believe that. It's a weirdly cynical belief.

[Teo oswald]

I see you Rian...I see your grin


Rian : Mark don't say too much please !!!!

[snufkin]

@californiagirl Oh sure, I had some mentions pushed into my mostly not SW related Twitter feed (I get SW b/c some folks on here I'm friendly with added me and that's what they do on there) where somebody kept arguing that it's reasonable to expect that JJ could fix the "character inconsistencies" like Rey's parents being addicts who sold her off because (and I quote) "people spent 3 years arguing that Vader wasn't Luke's dad." Like, okay yes people did argue that back in the early 1980s but we all know what the upshot of those arguments were, it didn't change anything.

The thing is, a lot of fans made up their minds given TFA's Mystery Box about what film Rian Johnson was supposedly going to make. All without ever bothering to watch any of his previous work or listen to his interviews, where you'd get a sense of the type of stories and characters he tends to write (which we sure saw in TLJ). So 2 years of a lot of fans deciding Rey Skywalker and the Beautiful Friendship Gang defeats her evil emo cousin brother Kyle Ron and then TLJ drops = freakout. And now the tune has changed to "JJ will fix everything!" I don't think anybody here will be 100% right in their IX predictions, but I read comments from fans elsewhere about how hopeful they are that IX will prove that Rey's a legacy child, no redemption et cetera and think "you really could be saving yourself from another freakout in 2 years if you just let go of some of your preconceptions."

Yet again, let's repeat the crux of this thread, this time two years ago fans who "knew better" were yelling at those of us (many of whom are lifelong SW fans) that the idea that the golden heroine would have anything to do with the supposedly awful and irredeemable villain, especially in a non-enemy and blood related way were stupid delusial females. Skip ahead two years and you have the writer/director and Luke Skywalker himself outright admitting that the scene of them together in the hut is coded to be sex. Something we called over here (that they were attracted to each other just as a young man and young woman and that their relationship would be central/dynamic to the ST) for being wrong and delusional. Meanwhile somewhere on a stage at Pinewood, Uncle Luke busted in on Rey, the good girl heroine, doing the nasty in a hut with the Son of Darkness, aka Luke's naughty nephew.

[BenRey]

Funny how the usual suspects aren't unstanning Mark the way they did Kelly.

[Kylo Rey]

@californiagirl Oh sure, I had some mentions pushed into my mostly not SW related Twitter feed (I get SW b/c some folks on here I'm friendly with added me and that's what they do on there) where somebody kept arguing that it's reasonable to expect that JJ could fix the "character inconsistencies" like Rey's parents being addicts who sold her off because (and I quote) "people spent 3 years arguing that Vader wasn't Luke's dad." Like, okay yes people did argue that back in the early 1980s but we all know what the upshot of those arguments were, it didn't change anything.

The thing is, a lot of fans made up their minds given TFA's Mystery Box about what film Rian Johnson was supposedly going to make. All without ever bothering to watch any of his previous work or listen to his interviews, where you'd get a sense of the type of stories and characters he tends to write (which we sure saw in TLJ). So 2 years of a lot of fans deciding Rey Skywalker and the Beautiful Friendship Gang defeats her evil emo cousin brother Kyle Ron and then TLJ drops = freakout. And now the tune has changed to "JJ will fix everything!" I don't think anybody here will be 100% right in their IX predictions, but I read comments from fans elsewhere about how hopeful they are that IX will prove that Rey's a legacy child, no redemption et cetera and think "you really could be saving yourself from another freakout in 2 years if you just let go of some of your preconceptions."

Yet again, let's repeat the crux of this thread, this time two years ago fans who "knew better" were yelling at those of us (many of whom are lifelong SW fans) that the idea that the golden heroine would have anything to do with the supposedly awful and irredeemable villain, especially in a non-enemy and blood related way were stupid delusial females. Skip ahead two years and you have the writer/director and Luke Skywalker himself outright admitting that the scene of them together in the hut is coded to be sex. Something we called over here (that they were attracted to each other just as a young man and young woman and that their relationship would be central/dynamic to the ST) for being wrong and delusional. Meanwhile somewhere on a stage at Pinewood, Uncle Luke busted in on Rey, the good girl heroine, doing the nasty in a hut with the Son of Darkness, aka Luke's naughty nephew.

@snufkin

Speaking of the types of stories and characters he tends to write, this is maybe my favourite SW gifset of all time because Looper parallels!













It fits incredibly well. Why were people so shocked honestly. Humanising villains is what Rian Johnson DOES. Kylo as a character was always going to be right up his street given the incredible similarities with Cid/the Rainmaker.

[motherofpearl1]

If there is one thing I love about Rian its the classy way he handles some of the flak hes got over TLJ. Some time ago a Thor fan asked Taika Waititi why he put so much comedy in Thor 3 and he responded with a rude noise - which I thought was a bit unfair because the question was polite and innocent! Then I read some of the appalling abuse Rian was getting and he responded with charm and humour, frankly I admired his restraint!!! As for TLJ....it truly is a film that demands repeated viewings because each one you uncover something new about it. One last thing....I remember someone on tumblr a whileback joking that the reason Luke blows up the hut (after it got leaked) was because he found Rey and Kylo 'doing the nasty'. How everyone laughed....titter ye not.

[snufkin]

@Kylo Rey I've seen that one before -- great example not just of how TLJ fits into the type of stories and characters he writes, but likely what sparked KK's interest in hiring him.

It's not even the complete list of the examples of you see in TLJ which were in his previous films. The biggest being:

+ The toxic/manipulative father figure who leads the young male protagonist astray. We have that for Ben with both Snoke and Luke, which echoes Abe's manipulation of Young Joe and Kid Blue's rivalry in Looper which uses their insecurities/need to prove themselves/desire for approval from a father figure to serve his agenda. It's even outright stated by Luke's confession to Rey that everything which happened with Ben was because he wanted to train him not to teach him but to cement his reputation/legacy (feed his own hubris).

+ Implied in both films, Diamond Dog in Brothers Bloom and Snoke are both predators who groomed/abused the young male protagonist. Earlier drafts of BB outright tell (versus the eventual show by implication) that DD sexually/emotionally abused Bloom. Same with TLJ and Snoke's relationship with Ben.

+ Luke like Old Joe is willing to murder a young child in order to prevent a tragedy in the future and by doing so, makes it a self-fulfilling prophecy.

+ We'll have to wait until IX to see how things play out, but there's a certain irony in the "a man who would kill to save his wife" line for both SW and Looper. Because that's a large % of Ben's motivation in killing Snoke (not all of it, he's still a selfish a**hole who needs to get his sh*t together and get on the right path).

+ Rey like Young Joe is the child of addicts whose decision to barter their child away for a fix has resulted in somebody whose core belief is that they are a good person and a desire to prove themselves as such. In Rey's case, it's why she's both naive but also selfless and altruistic.

+ There's also a similar parallel in the central relationship in BB and Looper of the young man entering the young woman's world starting with an agenda to use/manipulate her, a battle of wits, and being pulled over to her side.

There are definitely parallels between Cid/the Rainmaker and Ben/Kylo with their parent - oddly enough it feels like the character who's trying to straighten out their life and do right by their child as an analogue to Sara is Han.

[Kylo Rey]

@Kylo Rey I've seen that one before -- great example not just of how TLJ fits into the type of stories and characters he writes, but likely what sparked KK's interest in hiring him.

It's not even the complete list of the examples of you see in TLJ which were in his previous films. The biggest being:

+ The toxic/manipulative father figure who leads the young male protagonist astray. We have that for Ben with both Snoke and Luke, which echoes Abe's manipulation of Young Joe and Kid Blue's rivalry in Looper which uses their insecurities/need to prove themselves/desire for approval from a father figure to serve his agenda. It's even outright stated by Luke's confession to Rey that everything which happened with Ben was because he wanted to train him not to teach him but to cement his reputation/legacy (feed his own hubris).

+ Implied in both films, Diamond Dog in Brothers Bloom and Snoke are both predators who groomed/abused the young male protagonist. Earlier drafts of BB outright tell (versus the eventual show by implication) that DD sexually/emotionally abused Bloom. Same with TLJ and Snoke's relationship with Ben.

+ Luke like Old Joe is willing to murder a young child in order to prevent a tragedy in the future and by doing so, makes it a self-fulfilling prophecy.

+ We'll have to wait until IX to see how things play out, but there's a certain irony in the "a man who would kill to save his wife" line for both SW and Looper. Because that's a large % of Ben's motivation in killing Snoke (not all of it, he's still a selfish a**hole who needs to get his sh*t together and get on the right path).

+ Rey like Young Joe is the child of addicts whose decision to barter their child away for a fix has resulted in somebody whose core belief is that they are a good person and a desire to prove themselves as such. In Rey's case, it's why she's both naive but also selfless and altruistic.

+ There's also a similar parallel in the central relationship in BB and Looper of the young man entering the young woman's world starting with an agenda to use/manipulate her, a battle of wits, and being pulled over to her side.

There are definitely parallels between Cid/the Rainmaker and Ben/Kylo with their parent - oddly enough it feels like the character who's trying to straighten out their life and do right by their child as an analogue to Sara is Han.

@snufkin

This is great. Yessss @ the Old Joe/Luke parallels. That one is blatant. Never caught on to the Sara/Han one. You're right it does sound odd, but it fits, great catch! Brick also has a surprising/unexpected ending too with the implication at the end that Emily was pregnant with Brendan's child when she died and Laura's role in everything. I need to watch Brothers Bloom, haven't seen that yet, might watch it tonight. Morality and consequence is a recurring motif in his filmography as well as nuanced/human 'villains' and the true villain not being the one you expect due to red herrings.

[snufkin]

@Kylo Rey Credit for the Luke/Old Joe parallels go to the Lewton Bus podcast for the essay on their site. I thought of another one, "raw power" is very much like Cid's rage and telekinesis.

[motherofpearl1]

I'm curious as to if Kylo intended all along to replace Snoke as Supreme Leader, or if it occurred to him after his death...the look on his face as he stared at Snoke's corpse gave me the impression it was the latter.

[Dar-ren19]

I'm curious as to if Kylo intended all along to replace Snoke as Supreme Leader, or if it occurred to him after his death...the look on his face as he stared at Snoke's corpse gave me the impression it was the latter.

@motherofpearl1

To me, he looked stunned but also sort of awed (his look was sort of considering) as he looked at the throne itself. Earlier in that scene, when the saber came to Rey, and she turned back to him with it in her hands, there was a split second where AD moved his eyes from watching Snoke's body down to Rey. Did you see that? I found that very interesting... there was almost a sense of follow through, as if Kylo needed to make sure Snoke WAS falling/dead before Rey became his point of focus.

[Lily Snape]

When I make cracks about Bible Study, Church Camp,  or Sunday School, it's literally because the same time period I was involved in those activities was the height of my love for the OT. And while I grew up, moved on, and evolved as a person and my views, it's interesting hearing a lot of these fan 'arguments' because I have the same reaction to them that I did to my classmates at religious education. A lot of them may sincerely believe what they're saying, but a lot of what's said is because it's the Right/Status Quo position. And it's not a coincidence that in English, when you talk about debating the Canon, the provenance of that saying is about debating interpretation of the Bible. A lot of SW fans are the the same type of students I remembered from religious education who thought the Bible was word set in stone, not to be debated or interpreted. Same goes for a lot of SW fans who see everything as the un-debatable gospel of George Lucas and 40 years' worth of insitutional fan culture. So a lot of what gets complained about counts as literal heresy in their minds.

Also i can't remember who said it (either @Birdwoman or @Lily Snape) in the early days of this forum. But for a lot of fans, they may have grown up and matured/changed in the interim from when their version of SW affected them as a child, they're unwilling to allow the characters and the stories to likewise go through life changes as well. They grew up but they're not happy b/c the ST forced Han Solo and Luke Skywalker to also grow up and get older, both the good and bad parts which come with going through life.

Back to the topic at hand (har har), Uncle Luke is such an a**hole to Ben. First he contemplates killing him for his dirty darkside thoughts and then he busts up his sweet and tender firelit Force fueled tryst with Rey. No wonder the kid wanted to get his revenge on him!

@snufkin

I haven’t mastered the art of looking up my old posts, but I remember saying something along the lines of OT fans (and yes, I’m an OT fan) not coming to grips with their beloved characters growing up and growing old and maturing.  TFA was Han’s movie, and I remember paraphrasing someone else who pointed out that the character introduced to us in 1977 as selfish and cynical gives his life in an act of love and faith.  How much better and more real is that than same old Han all these decades later?  I’m no longer the little girl who watched those movies, and I wouldn’t expect the 60-something Han Solo to be the same guy as the 30-something Han Solo—it would be like the dude who still lives in his parents’ basement or something.  

I remember reading about taking on the adult role and how it means devoting yourself to something else as more important than what you want at a given point in time— when my 17-year-old son WANTS to sleep in but gets up and goes to work because the other guys doing setup will have a rough time without him there, that’s taking on the adult role.  We see Han increasingly develop in that way over the course of the OT—obviously he’s had his setbacks, but Leia and Ben matter more than anything else to him now, and that’s what I’d expect from the Han Solo I met in the OT.  His flaws make him fun and interesting and frustrating and attractive, but his heart and his loyalty were always there.  

And to get back on topic:  Mark Hamill confirming the hand-sex scene cracks me up, because he made it clear over the years that he wanted Luke to have a girlfriend, and he really doesn’t care who knows.  

[Kessel]

I'm curious as to if Kylo intended all along to replace Snoke as Supreme Leader, or if it occurred to him after his death...the look on his face as he stared at Snoke's corpse gave me the impression it was the latter.

@motherofpearl1

To me, he looked stunned but also sort of awed (his look was sort of considering) as he looked at the throne itself. Earlier in that scene, when the saber came to Rey, and she turned back to him with it in her hands, there was a split second where AD moved his eyes from watching Snoke's body down to Rey. Did you see that? I found that very interesting... there was almost a sense of follow through, as if Kylo needed to make sure Snoke WAS falling/dead before Rey became his point of focus.

@Dar-ren19

Yeah, I agree Kylo looked stunned after it was all said and done, as if he couldn’t believe he’d actually gone through with killing Snoke. That shows that the actual killing wasn’t planned, but was because of the situation with Rey.

While I think the motivation and desire for Kylo to obtain power/purpose for himself and be his own person free of Snoke were already there, it was saving Rey that gave Kylo the conviction to actually do it. He didn’t have a plan when he walked into the throne room, he just knew he was ready to be free of Snoke and be with Rey. I love the throne room scene because there’s so much going on with Kylo in it. That scene shows that when he’s resolved and focused, he is very powerful and formidable.

[snufkin]

@Lily Snape To quote Kylo, then yes "It is you!" That's what makes Han both interesting and why the "well Ben's going to die unredeemed b/c the family saga is going to end" arguments so terrible.

And yes, Mark Hamill seems to be pretty salty that while Han got laid, Ben got to hold hands (i.e. metaphorical sex scene) with the heroine, Luke's a sad space monk who was only ever allowed a weird crush on his sister.

[Kylo Rey]

@Lily Snape To quote Kylo, then yes "It is you!" That's what makes Han both interesting and why the "well Ben's going to die unredeemed b/c the family saga is going to end" arguments so terrible.

And yes, Mark Hamill seems to be pretty salty that while Han got laid, Ben got to hold hands (i.e. metaphorical sex scene) with the heroine, Luke's a sad space monk who was only ever allowed a weird crush on his sister.

@snufkin

The Solo boys always get the girl! People should realise this by now.

[snufkin]

@Kylo Rey There's a respected economist here in the States, Tyler Cowan, who's a huge SW fan and he's actually written about how from a resource and sustainability perspective, the Darkside (or morally flexible) characters in that fictional universe are the most sensible because they're the ones who end up reproducing as part of their impulses. Meanwhile the Jedi are like one of those groups we had here, like the Oneida, who are celibate and detached and depend on the not very sensible strategy of recruitment to continue their ranks. And yes, Luke shouldn't have been surprised by walking in on Ben and Rey after all those years ago of Han's "I try not to...but she's got a lot of spirit." As a kid in the opening of ESB, it was always clear to me which one of them had the tighter bond with Leia, and that wasn't Luke ever.

[motherofpearl1]

The relationship between Rey and Kylo is not so much as one is ’good’ one is ’bad’, but more like opposite personality types. I see Rey as the eternal optimist, which is how she survived on Jakku by clinging to the belief that her parents would always come back for her. Kylo meanwhile, is the eternal cynic, who long ago lost faith in those he loved. Rey sees the glass as half empty, Kylo as half full. Its not hard to empathise with both of them, especially in thelast few scenes of TLJ, although I must admit I felt the most sympathy for Kylo, even more so in the novel. What’s interesting is where JJ is going to take the ’ying/yang’ aspect of their characters....if there is one thing I wasn’t keen on in TLJ it was that Rey verged very closely on the ’too good to be true’ type of character whereas in TFA she was very much a ’grey’ character. So far we have seen the light in Kylo, shown by his regret at killing his father, his inability to kill his mother and his obvious compassion and feelings for Rey. In IX will we see the dark in Rey?

[californiagirl]

The relationship between Rey and Kylo is not so much as one is ’good’ one is ’bad’, but more like opposite personality types. I see Rey as the eternal optimist, which is how she survived on Jakku by clinging to the belief that her parents would always come back for her. Kylo meanwhile, is the eternal cynic, who long ago lost faith in those he loved. Rey sees the glass as half empty, Kylo as half full. Its not hard to empathise with both of them, especially in thelast few scenes of TLJ, although I must admit I felt the most sympathy for Kylo, even more so in the novel. What’s interesting is where JJ is going to take the ’ying/yang’ aspect of their characters....if there is one thing I wasn’t keen on in TLJ it was that Rey verged very closely on the ’too good to be true’ type of character whereas in TFA she was very much a ’grey’ character. So far we have seen the light in Kylo, shown by his regret at killing his father, his inability to kill his mother and his obvious compassion and feelings for Rey. In IX will we see the dark in Rey?

@motherofpearl1

I think she was a bit grey in both movies. I posted a few times about it recently, but there's this weird conflict between how Rey is written and how open the films and marketing are about her. On the surface it looks like she is goody two shoes Jedi superhero, beacon of light to the galaxy. When in reality, she was being eaten alive inside by her abandonment, her crappy life, her confusion over her powers and connection to Kylo, her failure at convincing Luke to help the Resistance and helping Kylo turn. Of course she also gets all close with the reputed lord of the dark side Kylo, then proceeds to knock down Luke with a stick, which actually just cracks me up for some reason, but I remember Daisy saying how shocked and scared she was about some of Rey's actions in the film.

One of her flaws, as you said, is trying to cover up her problems and pretending everything is fine, whereas Kylo lets his problems consume him and even end up harming others around him in the process. But the messages of hope and optimism override the issues all this has caused for her. The movies do not spend much time recognizing or dwelling on all these things. Back to beacon of goodness and light versus the powers of evil and darkness.

[motherofpearl1]

In the novel when they both went for the lightsabre it was described as the crystal practically screaming as it broke in two between them. This is such strong symbolism -neither of them is 100% wrong or right.