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@rawpowah

why worried? I think they leaving that out so his redemption in IX won't be too "in your face" for the GA

Yeah, I wouldn't worry.

There's going to be a lot of reveals and revelations in IX, and I suspect when we see the whole film and the plot it contains, we'll understand why they chose to structure the "surprises" the way they did.

Rian Reylo Johnson strikes back...

Night Huntress wrote:@rawpowah

why worried? I think they leaving that out so his redemption in IX won't be too "in your face" for the GA

@Night Huntress

The problem is that they had the opportunity to show vs. tell, as far as their dynamic and Snoke's abuse is concerned. Now Snoke is dead. Leia could have told Rey more about Snoke's control, but she'll be gone too so...

I'm starting to lose faith that it will ever be addressed in the movies, and it's annoying because it would have helped in the redemption process, since so many are still convinced Kylo chose the dark side instead of having that choice taken from him by Luke and Snoke being in his head since birth.

nickandnora wrote:Yeah, I wouldn't worry.

There's going to be a lot of reveals and revelations in IX, and I suspect when we see the whole film and the plot it contains, we'll understand why they chose to structure the "surprises" the way they did.

@nickandnora

Snoke's abuse isn't a reveal. We know about it from the canon novels/novelizations. I just wanted to see it on screen because this is something that isn't yet clear to the GA. And I don't know if JJ is going to use flashbacks. He already cut young Ben from Rey's vision in TFA, cut Kylo in the Falcon, and cut the compassion convo Ben had with Snoke.

I think any backstory involving Snoke is redundant now that he's dead, Kylo is no longer under his control and has chosen to take over the FO. At this point, the way for him to win over the audience is through his own actions, not because the film serves more sad backstory.

Saracene wrote:I think any backstory involving Snoke is redundant now that he's dead, Kylo is no longer under his control and has chosen to take over the FO. At this point, the way for him to win over the audience is through his own actions, not because the film serves more sad backstory.

@Saracene

It's not about using a sad backstory to excuse his actions. It's about clarifying their relationship and the timeline for the audience, contrasting Snoke touching Ben's face to how Han did before he died, and showing the amount of control Snoke has over Ben (which makes Ben's ability to kill him and hide his true thoughts even more impressive).

But I guess Poe's "your mamma" jokes were more important.

FWIW I think there's still a big Snoke reveal coming, even though he's dead. I think perhaps due to the nature of the story they had to leave it until IX (I suspect it absolves Kylo of almost everything).

Fair enough about the abuse, but there are probably a bunch of separate reasons why those scenes were cut as opposed to it just being because they made Kylo more sympathetic.

I really think the tear scene probably just looked weird or was tonally "off."

I don't know though, I didn't write or edit it.

We should keep a look out for Andy Sirkus over the summer, i mean if hes spotted filming for ep9, it's almost confirmed he'll be part of a flashback/vision/illusion scene of some sort! I doubt he'll be alive though!

Kylo is way ahead of Rey in the "acknowledgment of romantic feelings" because he knows what love is. He has a family, so he knows what the feelings are, Rey unfortunately does not remember her past , she feels something for Ben but maybe she does not know what it is . also in this Ben will be his teacher too, the fact that he has no experience with girls does not mean anything, love goes beyond simple physical contact

Lol Mark

“I had lots of horrible ideas. After Kylo realized that I’m a hologram, I said, ‘I should start growing 10 feet, then 20 feet, then 30 feet, then 40 feet, and then start stomping on Adam Driver.’ At the time I thought, ‘This is a really good idea’…Days later, ‘Did I really say that? That’s horrible.’ I think I had, like, inner Godzilla aspirations.”

bashfulblueeyes3 wrote:I think that Rian's intent was to bring them closer with Romantic undertones. That being said, he is open for anyone to interpret things the way they want. Hence, maybe liking what he thought was a good interpretation someone had.  It may not be what he set up or he actually could have accidentally liked the wrong tweet?  

@bashfulblueeyes3

What exactly did he like? (I never can get twitter). I just saw him saying that they debated a long time over the "pretty eyes" line. I can see them cutting that because it would give too much away on Rey's side.

The fact that he wrote that line and filmed it tells you all you need to know.

@snufkin

I tried to tag you yesterday regarding the Q&A (but failed) Rian mentioned this in yesterday’s chat about a dialogue free music only version of TLJ, So you only hear John Williams score. Sounds like this is something he really felt strongly about. I’d really like to see this version also

ZioRen wrote:

Kylo Rey wrote:Turns out Andy and Adam filmed the scene where Snoke wipes the tear away from Kylo's eye that was in the novelisation! Soooooo creepy!

https://twitter.com/writerchick3/status/973548253156265984

@Kylo Rey

Forever frustrated that they keep leaving out scenes that hammer home Kylo's sympathy factor.

@ZioRen

That's the dirty molester moment right there.

I agree with you about the cutting of sympathetic Kylo scenes.

I just hope that they cut this so that they can portray the abuse with more power in Episode IX.

rawpowah wrote:

Saracene wrote:I think any backstory involving Snoke is redundant now that he's dead, Kylo is no longer under his control and has chosen to take over the FO. At this point, the way for him to win over the audience is through his own actions, not because the film serves more sad backstory.

@Saracene

It's not about using a sad backstory to excuse his actions. It's about clarifying their relationship and the timeline for the audience, contrasting Snoke touching Ben's face to how Han did before he died, and showing the amount of control Snoke has over Ben (which makes Ben's ability to kill him and hide his true thoughts even more impressive).

But I guess Poe's "your mamma" jokes were more important.

@rawpowah

I don't disagree, I'm just saying that the time for more backstory concerning Snoke was in TLJ. I really don't think that Episode IX will show more; the story has to march forward and it's hardly concerned with timeline when the movies don't even spell out Kylo's age. There just isn't time for filling in the details.

From a movie/pop culture YT person, which kind of reflects the TLJ emotional rollercoaster.

I do think that TLJ really felt like the time to reveal the extent to Snoke manipulating Ben from childhood.They managed to convey pretty well that they had an abusive dynamic and that Snoke was using Ben's weakness and keeping him conflicted but I would have liked to see more on how he influenced him before.Imo its possible they were saving it for IX which was supposed to be Leia's movie and would have most likely focused on the mother son relationship a lot more and there was room there to reveal Ben's childhood and how Snoke affected it.They can still do that now so I have some hope it gets explored in the movie and not just in the books

SoloSideCousin wrote:

bashfulblueeyes3 wrote:I think that Rian's intent was to bring them closer with Romantic undertones. That being said, he is open for anyone to interpret things the way they want. Hence, maybe liking what he thought was a good interpretation someone had.  It may not be what he set up or he actually could have accidentally liked the wrong tweet?  

@bashfulblueeyes3

What exactly did he like? (I never can get twitter). I just saw him saying that they debated a long time over the "pretty eyes" line. I can see them cutting that because it would give too much away on Rey's side.

The fact that he wrote that line and filmed it tells you all you need to know.

@SoloSideCousin

It definitely would have given too much away on Rey's side. I'm glad they cut it though. It's a cheesy and clunky line that doesn't fit with the ambiguity/subtlety of Reylo and makes it seem like Rey fell for him for purely superficial/shallow reasons. It sounds terribly like Luke Skywalker is **** shaming her too and makes him sound horrible. The way Mark Hamill delivers the line makes Luke sound jealous of his nephew - can't be just me right? Luke/Rey/Kylo love triangle LOL. Hey, at least he thinks his nephew is handsome though. But in all seriousness, looks like they were going to originally take the subtext of dark side seduction into literal text.

@MrsWindu Oh wow, thanks! Finances at the moment probably mean that I'll go on the waiting list at my library for a DVD copy (I'm 187 in the queue for 70 copies ordered), hopefully that feature will be included. I love how much of a student of film Rian is in general, that's what a lot of us here love in terms of looking at these films and picking them apart - the larger cinematic influences. And Wings was an inspiration for Canto Bight.

12 Parsnips wrote:

whisperingwillow wrote:

nickandnora wrote:Kylo is wayyyy ahead of Rey in the "acknowledgement of romantic feelings" department. As I mentioned, I quite enjoy Fry's interpretation that she sees Kylo as an instrument of the Corce (lol, OK) because that's so Rey to hide what she feels behind the mask of something else.

It's like in P&P. Darcy loves Lizzie "most ardently," but she doesn't actually start falling for him legit until after the proposal and she starts thinking, and interacting with people who knew him, and visiting his home, and seeing how selfless he is, etc. It's going to be the same story here. We're not even going to get an admission that she's in love with him until the last two minutes of the next movie, I'd wager (though I suspect the actual *feelings* of love will officially blossom, unsaid, before that point, but still during Act III).

@nickandnora

You're going to see her feelings and emotions towards him continue to evolve until the end of Act III and that is where the feelings will eventually be completely unveiled for the audience.

@whisperingwillow

Yes, I think so too--the audience in IX is going to be following Rey's lead in terms of how they feel about Ben. So it would make sense that they have to build slowly until the end "reveal." (Of course the Reylos were clued in long before! )

@12 Parsnips

It's very in character for Rey to be in denial and it definitely works for her as a representative of the audience, figuring things out and finding sympathy/attraction in the supposed villain. It also follows the classic P&P structure and neatly works around the potential of people seeing her as being "thirsty" taking priority over her being heroic... It's also why I thought it was good for the "pair of pretty eyes" to not be there, as much as I like the line.

People put a lot of weight on Luke's opinion and I think it was smarter to *depict*, very blatantly, the symbolism of her sexual awakening and thirstiness without having a male authority figure around to throw shade on that which the audience might take as their cue to see it in a negative light. Anyone who did that would be a total sexist jerk, of course, but it seems wiser to keep things delicate and try to do an end-run around their epic jerkiness by not putting something like that in the mouth of Luke Skywalker.

Saracene wrote:

rawpowah wrote:

Saracene wrote:I think any backstory involving Snoke is redundant now that he's dead, Kylo is no longer under his control and has chosen to take over the FO. At this point, the way for him to win over the audience is through his own actions, not because the film serves more sad backstory.

@Saracene

It's not about using a sad backstory to excuse his actions. It's about clarifying their relationship and the timeline for the audience, contrasting Snoke touching Ben's face to how Han did before he died, and showing the amount of control Snoke has over Ben (which makes Ben's ability to kill him and hide his true thoughts even more impressive).

But I guess Poe's "your mamma" jokes were more important.

@rawpowah

I don't disagree, I'm just saying that the time for more backstory concerning Snoke was in TLJ. I really don't think that Episode IX will show more; the story has to march forward and it's hardly concerned with timeline when the movies don't even spell out Kylo's age. There just isn't time for filling in the details.

Mila95 wrote:I do think that TLJ really felt like the time to reveal the extent to Snoke manipulating Ben from childhood.They managed to convey pretty well that they had an abusive dynamic and that Snoke was using Ben's weakness and keeping him conflicted but I would have liked to see more on how he influenced him before.Imo its possible they were saving it for IX which was supposed to be Leia's movie and would have most likely focused on the mother son relationship a lot more and there was room there to reveal Ben's childhood and how Snoke affected it.They can still do that now so I have some hope it gets explored in the movie and not just in the books

@Mila95


@Saracene

Hmmmm...

I disagree only because, when I look at it from a foreshadowing and set-up perspective, there's 2-3 things that I think occur in this tale that they needed to hold back until IX that connect to Snoke.

The first is the reveal of Hux's ultimate weapon and what it consists of (I know that doesn't seem like it would in any way be connected to Snoke, but I think it is).

The second is what exactly happened when Ben was ten years old. Yeah, I know Snoke had his eye out for Ben since the womb, but I know (definitely, absolutely, for sure) that there was one major occurance that can probably be explained in a 2-3 minute flashback and it will reveal *everything*. And it's something that, I suspect, if I know my storytelling trajectory as well as I think I do, Rey finds out in the last 15 minutes of the final movie. It's the last piece of the puzzle and it's going to be huge.

Yeah, I'm basically putting my stakes in the ground that I know what happens in this story and I know why they've structured it the way they have, Snoke/Ben backstory included, lol. We'll see how well I can defend it with... over 600 days to go, sigh.    But if I'm right, I'll be very happy I called it so early (and feel very psychic... or perhaps just smart, lol)

(Of course none of this means they had to take out the smaller sympathetic scenes of Ben, or creepy Snoke from the earlier films but I feel like I understand that they (J.J.? Rian? Both of them?) might have been like "NO LET'S SAVE IT AND BE AWESOME.")

It's interesting how many things that make both Kylo's and Rey's thoughts and feelings, or Kylo's backstory, about each other clearer get cut from the final product, sometimes not even being filmed.

It's still frustrating how much they downplay the romance element within the film itself, and save the most explicit statements about the Kylo and Rey for outside the film in interviews, novels, etc. LF is truly playing the long game here. Few studios would care that much about story or character. I just hope they don't hold back too much.

@nickandnora Why do you say the last 15 minutes? Wouldn't that feel rushed and tacked on? Also, what ideas do you have as to what that big reveal/major occurrence might be?

Night Huntress wrote:Rian Reylo Johnson strikes back...

@Night Huntress

Hmm, I'm a little lost here. Schnauz was producer of Breaking Bad and was involved in Rian's episode Ozymandias. This is a joke, right?

rawpowah wrote:@nickandnora Why do you say the last 15 minutes? Wouldn't that feel rushed and tacked on? Also, what ideas do you have as to what that big reveal/major occurrence might be?

@rawpowah

I might not have the timing *exactly* right; it depends on how long the movie is. But I say that late in the game because it's a realization that's going to spur Rey to make her final journey "home" to Ben, I think. It's essentially the penultimate thing that needs to happen.

In a very brief nutshell, I believe they're going to show us the moment that Snoke got into Ben's blood... like, literally. Basically the last moment that Ben was pure, balanced Ben Solo before he was physically manipulated not to be (because I think there is in fact a physical component here that's going to be revealed). And they're going to show us that two people were "responsible" for it (aside from Snoke)... *takes deep breath, prepares to go out on a huge limb*... 1) Maz, and 2)... Han (inadvertently).

I can take this to the predictions thread soon, but I was the last person to write in it already, lol. This is wildly off-topic for this thread though, so I'll wait a bit before going any further.

californiagirl wrote:It's interesting how many things that make both Kylo's and Rey's thoughts and feelings, or Kylo's backstory, about each other clearer get cut from the final product, sometimes not even being filmed.

It's still frustrating how much they downplay the romance element within the film itself, and save the most explicit statements about the Kylo and Rey for outside the film in interviews, novels, etc. LF is truly playing the long game here. Few studios would care that much about story or character. I just hope they don't hold back too much.

@californiagirl

I honestly think that they downplay the romantic element mostly out of fear of backlash to the heroine/villain romance - particularly where Rey's side of things is concerned. They're a bit more bold with talking about Kylo's, but then he's not touted as a role model for little girls. The way TLJ went, everyone can draw the conclusions they're happy with: "yay romance" or "Rey and Kylo are totes enemies now".