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I have to ask, why is stuff like this always in books and comics that only a small percentage of the audience actually reads?

Wouldn't it be grand if the film actually bothered to, I don't know, show the Prime Jedi symbol or hint at ancient Dark Side influences or show a glimpse of baby Ben in distress.

Wouldn't that be something.

Who's this DARTH "ATROCIOUS"?

Darth Dingbat wrote:I have to ask, why is stuff like this always in books and comics that only a small percentage of the audience actually reads?

Wouldn't it be grand if the film actually bothered to, I don't know, show the Prime Jedi symbol or hint at ancient Dark Side influences or show a glimpse of baby Ben in distress.

Wouldn't that be something.

@Darth Dingbat

That Prime Jedi symbol wasn't actually in the comic tbf, it was an edit someone made on tumblr to draw a comparison between Rey and Kylo's faces on the panel and the symbol. It looks like the Luke lightsaber thing was more about some Sith than potential Snoke influence.

@Darth Dingbat

The logo is shown for a brief moment when Rey is walking up to her first lesson with Luke. As with Dark Side influence I do think we've had seeds planted there from lines of dialogue like mentions of the Knights of Ren, AOTC talking about a full scale war before the formation of the Republic, and ROTS the mention of the Sith ruling the galaxy again. It's there in layers but not explicitly shown. I do think this could change in Episode IX though. Especially if we see the Knights of Ren in full scale. We certainly do need to see baby Ben in distress and maybe Leia too and the fear she has of her son falling to the Dark Side. We need a moment with Mother and Son.

Darth Dingbat wrote:I have to ask, why is stuff like this always in books and comics that only a small percentage of the audience actually reads?

Wouldn't it be grand if the film actually bothered to, I don't know, show the Prime Jedi symbol or hint at ancient Dark Side influences or show a glimpse of baby Ben in distress.

Wouldn't that be something.

@Darth Dingbat

I complain about this constantly. It sounds like the ancillary material (novelizations, spinoff novels, Rebels show, etc.) for RO fleshed out the story and characters quite a bit as well, and none of it made in the actual film. The movies need to be made for a broad audience to make the maximum amount of $$$, so maybe trade it off for more action scenes that are more easily sellable. Politics? Force lore? Character parallels? Blah. Don't bore the audience!

I still think they will do a bit of this in IX. It's just that this trilogy is helmed by master of the mystery box JJ and Looper twists and turns Rian. So yeah, it's all about misdirection and secrecy. Maybe too much so.

I can't believe Darth Maul isn't even on that hottest villain list. I've seen and heard many, many people lust after him even if they don't understand why they're doing it.

Also, come on, that new comic has to be saying something about Kylo. There's literally no other reason for that scene to exist.

@nana7marie
I think the prime Jedi mosaic was added by the poster so not part of comic

Kylo Rey wrote:Sleemo posted the next pages for context







This is so weird. Kylo models his saber on one his uncle found before he was even born, with an ancient design (which Luke destroyed). What a weird coincidence. I was under the impression that Kylo's lightsaber design was kind of rare. The comic gives the impression that the saber has some kind of weird, controlling mystical influence on Luke then he snapped out of it. This kind of lends credence to the theories that Snoke might have been reaching out and messing with Luke too. Interesting. And the first thing I thought of when seeing the saber crack was the lightsaber split in TLJ.

@Kylo Rey

Kylo's lightsaber is an old school design. I believe in the Maul comics that there is an image that the Jedi used the same design when they massacred a bunch of Sith like 1000 years ago. (I think that there were lightsabers found like that at a Sith dying ground in Rebels).  This vision fueled Maul's anger and made some of us think that the Jedi did not have such a pure history and that Ben and Luke had a theological dispute before we found out Luke thought about killing Kylo.

In the Aftermath books there is a ton of information about objects being imbued with darkness and mentally changing those who hold them.  Luke seems to have something like that happening here. Luke also had a Jedi crusader crystal among his things ... maybe that came from a Jedi who massacred the Sith. We will probably learn what that was about in a book.

But it makes you think that if Snoke had anything to do with Kylo's design that there could be some darkness attached to his saber, though he seems to able to overcome it at times ... maybe when he follows his own heart?

The Skywalker lightsaber also murdered a bunch of kids. A lot of us theorized pre-TLJ that it might be tainted. Maybe that lightsaber needed to blow up? Maybe Ben and Rey need to not only heal the crystal from their fight but also heal it of its dark connections?

Of course Unca Wanwo chose little Starfighter: (from Darth Vader, Maul and Kylo):



http://www.indiewire.com/2018/05/donald-glover-kylo-ren-better-villain-darth-vader-1201967773/

ZioRen wrote:I can't believe Darth Maul isn't even on that hottest villain list. I've seen and heard many, many people lust after him even if they don't understand why they're doing it.

Also, come on, that new comic has to be saying something about Kylo. There's literally no other reason for that scene to exist.

@ZioRen

If nothing else, it's yet another case in the new canon EU content about someone being temporarily "possessed" by the dark side via a dark side artifact. That's something that's come up over and over and over from multiple sources.

Not that I think they're going there directly with Kylo, but I think there could be a chance that they go there indirectly in IX, with Snoke now being gone/out of Kylo's head.

I believe Jenny is indicating a YT collab with Lindsay Ellis? Lindsay is one of the best people on YT, and has said her next video would be TLJ-related, plus she's already friends with Jenny (who also just posted a long and interesting FoD video today), so I'm not terribly surprised.

This should be interesting since she really liked TLJ, but also said said a few very nasty things about Kylo and his fans and shippers back in December, while Jenny is Kylo redemption stan supreme. It was odd because Lindsay is normally very reasonable and intelligent, but she is also very sensitive to anything she considers political. She didn't understand why Kylo was shirtless for anything other than cynical corporate reasons, even though she is normally acutely aware of things like gender, storytelling, writers' intents, framing, etc., and does her research thoroughly. I honestly think she saw Kylo as so far down the "bad guy" spectrum that it might not have even occurred to her that he was being objectified for Rey and actual storytelling reasons (like nude Chris Pine for Wonder Woman). She stopped delivering SW hot takes shortly after this, as she realized how awful and toxic the "discourse" around TLJ was. Wonder if she's come around since, especially with Jenny around.

If indeed they are collaborating, I would get excited because Lindsay's videos are top-notch stuff. There's one on Twilight and how it wasn't the worst thing ever and how people have issues with teen girls and the things they like, one on romanticizing/sexualizing movie monsters as inspired by The Shape of Water, and a 3-part, documentary-length analysis of the Hobbit movies and their production woes, for which she went to New Zealand's Hobbiton, where she also interviewed one of the actors who played a dwarf in the trilogy. All good stuff that is relevant to our own conversations here. Also she is most famous for talking about Disney and Transformers.





Update: It's happening and also:

Interesting. Did she have a change of heart?

I've seen some of her videos (the Twilight and Shape ones included), but I had no idea she said something about Kylo and his fans and shippers. It's really bizarre that she notices all the monster romance themes and tropes in The Shape of Water and defends Twilight, while at the same time criticizing Kylo Ren fans and shippers and being totally oblivious to Reylo and the tropes there. I hope she's not the type who thinks we like Kylo because we can fix him or something

rawpowah wrote: I hope she's not the type who thinks we like Kylo because we can fix him or something

@rawpowah

Who cares what she's thinking? I don't want to b*** and I really like some of her videos when I'm in the right mood- they're pretty funny.
But she is just a random girl? Maybe I'm too old to get the fascination with youtube or social media "stars" but I really don't give a sith about their opinion. They're entertaining to watch and that's it.

@Night Huntress Umm... idk where in my comment there's any mention that I'm fascinated with youtube or media stars? I'm not even subscribed to her channel. I just find it curious that someone who notices stuff like tropes, framing, narrative structures etc. would be oblivious to Reylo, since you'd expect them to notice it if they see it in other movies.

rawpowah wrote:@Night Huntress Umm... idk where in my comment there's any mention that I'm fascinated with youtube or media stars? I'm not even subscribed to her channel. I just find it curious that someone who notices stuff like tropes, framing, narrative structures etc. would be oblivious to Reylo, since you'd expect them to notice it if they see it in other movies.

@rawpowah

Sorry, I know I quoted you but I didn't meant you personally- it just reminded me of a "trend" I recognized lately. People in fandom quoting or retweeting opinions of random other fans and making huge thing of it...as if their opinion matters more for some reason because they have more follower or a popular youtube channel.

I assume it's because of the drama - it's a long way till episode IX and it keeps the talking alive I guess.

Haven't seen this posted here. Rian Johnson talking about Kylo in a recent issue of SFX Magazine (this is within the context of Rian choosing not to give Snoke a backstory)

"It's all about Rey. It's about Kylo. Especially once I realised that Kylo was going to be ascendant in this film, and take a position of power at the end of it. At that point Snoke could be used much more effectively as someone that Kylo bests and moves past, as opposed to ending the movie just on the same note as the Emperor and apprentice relationship.

He's said similar things regarding this in the past, but here's an interesting short meta on this point:

Anon: Based on something you reblogged, since you’re really good with meta...when Rian says “Kylo was going to be ascendant” it makes me wonder if we’re misinterpreting the end of the movie. Like most Reylo shippers and Kylo meta writers have the consensus that he was emotionally beaten down at the end of Crait and in his last scene with Rey, but if the filmmaker’s intent was to have him be “ascendant” reaching the high point of his power, does that mean he’s being set up as a complete villain in IX?

Long story short, I don’t think so. At least, I don’t think the writers intend to turn him into the dragon to be slain at the end of the trilogy if that’s your concern. However, Kylo certainly earned his central place as the antagonist in the eyes of the general audience, which is good! They’re finally taking him seriously (way less ‘Crylo Ren’ and derogatory comments about him being a wimp or a wannabe Darth Vader as far as I can see when I step outside of Tumblr).

Force Awakens isn’t as symbolically charged as Last Jedi, but something that always struck me is how Kylo was metaphorically impotent. Both Rey and Kylo were stuck in childhood. The big difference is that Rey ‘chose’ to remain a child (she condemned herself to stay on Jakku, waiting for her parents, keeping the same hairdo, etc…) whereas Kylo was infantilized and castrated at every turn by his entourage (Lor San Tekka scolding him for 'what he had become’, Han calling him 'a boy’, Snoke acting as a patriarchal figure, etc…) and later by Rey, who stripped him of his power.

That’s why I believe that when Rian said “Kylo was going to be ascendant” he meant that the character was going to take his power back. And two things that The Last Jedi did extremely well (in parallel) was to sexualize Kylo/Ben and empower him, metaphorically and literally. For instance, he finally found the strength to kill Snoke and take the power that was 'promised’ to him since he was a kid. But what we saw on Crait is that, well perhaps the ultimate power wasn’t what he craved at all.

The last scene with Rey shows him at his most powerful - he’s the Supreme Leader - but also as his lowest point - he’s alone, broken and extremely vulnerable. From there - shipping goggles aside - I truly believe that the only option for the character is to heal and reach his true state, which is definitely not villainy.

Villains don’t say please.

http://red-applesith.tumblr.com/post/174153395672/based-on-something-you-reblogged-since-youre

What I find significant is the recent databank updates to Kylo's section. If you recall, the databank was updated in early 2017 to reflect Rey and Kylo's mysterious connection and intertwined destinies - something that Reylos had been speculating for a long time but it was nice to finally have the confirmation. In terms of future speculation for TLJ, some didn't believe that they would spoil something so big (which was a reasonable assumption at the time) but it did turn out to be a very literal and huge spoiler for a massive and central part of their relationship. Personally, I think that latest update about how "it didn't feel like a victory" for Kylo isn't just solely spelling out what some people still couldn't grasp about his final scene, but also telling us something similar in terms of his mindset and future developments for IX and for a 'heavy is the head that wears the crown' narrative. It's the first solid clue we have towards IX imo. Or I could just be reaching, who knows.

Night Huntress wrote:

rawpowah wrote:@Night Huntress Umm... idk where in my comment there's any mention that I'm fascinated with youtube or media stars? I'm not even subscribed to her channel. I just find it curious that someone who notices stuff like tropes, framing, narrative structures etc. would be oblivious to Reylo, since you'd expect them to notice it if they see it in other movies.

@rawpowah

Sorry, I know I quoted you but I didn't meant you personally- it just reminded me of a "trend" I recognized lately. People in fandom quoting or retweeting opinions of random other fans and making huge thing of it...as if their opinion matters more for some reason because they have more follower or a popular youtube channel.

I assume it's because of the drama - it's a long way till episode IX and it keeps the talking alive I guess.

@Night Huntress

Lindsay is much more academic in her approach, she has a film degree from USC, and she's been doing YT for 10 years now. She lives on a level way beyond the reach of other YT and other social media people who spout terrible hot takes with no knowledge of what they're actually talking about. What she does is more like what we do here than other people on the YT platform. I wouldn't be suggesting her videos otherwise. Lindsay v. the rest of YT is like this forum versus all the other SW forums, Jedi Council, etc. The difference is pronounced, to put it mildly. She actually has been pretty vocal about disliking the shallow, uneducated nature of other YT film "criticism", so she does long form video essays instead of reviews.

Kylo Rey wrote:Haven't seen this posted here. Rian Johnson talking about Kylo in a recent issue of SFX Magazine (this is within the context of Rian choosing not to give Snoke a backstory)

"It's all about Rey. It's about Kylo. Especially once I realised that Kylo was going to be ascendant in this film, and take a position of power at the end of it. At that point Snoke could be used much more effectively as someone that Kylo bests and moves past, as opposed to ending the movie just on the same note as the Emperor and apprentice relationship.

He's said similar things regarding this in the past, but here's an interesting short meta on this point:

Anon: Based on something you reblogged, since you’re really good with meta...when Rian says “Kylo was going to be ascendant” it makes me wonder if we’re misinterpreting the end of the movie. Like most Reylo shippers and Kylo meta writers have the consensus that he was emotionally beaten down at the end of Crait and in his last scene with Rey, but if the filmmaker’s intent was to have him be “ascendant” reaching the high point of his power, does that mean he’s being set up as a complete villain in IX?

Long story short, I don’t think so. At least, I don’t think the writers intend to turn him into the dragon to be slain at the end of the trilogy if that’s your concern. However, Kylo certainly earned his central place as the antagonist in the eyes of the general audience, which is good! They’re finally taking him seriously (way less ‘Crylo Ren’ and derogatory comments about him being a wimp or a wannabe Darth Vader as far as I can see when I step outside of Tumblr).

Force Awakens isn’t as symbolically charged as Last Jedi, but something that always struck me is how Kylo was metaphorically impotent. Both Rey and Kylo were stuck in childhood. The big difference is that Rey ‘chose’ to remain a child (she condemned herself to stay on Jakku, waiting for her parents, keeping the same hairdo, etc…) whereas Kylo was infantilized and castrated at every turn by his entourage (Lor San Tekka scolding him for 'what he had become’, Han calling him 'a boy’, Snoke acting as a patriarchal figure, etc…) and later by Rey, who stripped him of his power.

That’s why I believe that when Rian said “Kylo was going to be ascendant” he meant that the character was going to take his power back. And two things that The Last Jedi did extremely well (in parallel) was to sexualize Kylo/Ben and empower him, metaphorically and literally. For instance, he finally found the strength to kill Snoke and take the power that was 'promised’ to him since he was a kid. But what we saw on Crait is that, well perhaps the ultimate power wasn’t what he craved at all.

The last scene with Rey shows him at his most powerful - he’s the Supreme Leader - but also as his lowest point - he’s alone, broken and extremely vulnerable. From there - shipping goggles aside - I truly believe that the only option for the character is to heal and reach his true state, which is definitely not villainy.

Villains don’t say please.

http://red-applesith.tumblr.com/post/174153395672/based-on-something-you-reblogged-since-youre

What I find significant is the recent databank updates to Kylo's section. If you recall, the databank was updated in early 2017 to reflect Rey and Kylo's mysterious connection and intertwined destinies - something that Reylos had been speculating for a long time but it was nice to finally have the confirmation. In terms of future speculation for TLJ, some didn't believe that they would spoil something so big (which was a reasonable assumption at the time) but it did turn out to be a very literal and huge spoiler for a massive and central part of their relationship. Personally, I think that latest update about how "it didn't feel like a victory" for Kylo isn't just solely spelling out what some people still couldn't grasp about his final scene, but also telling us something similar in terms of his mindset and future developments for IX and for a 'heavy is the head that wears the crown' narrative. It's the first solid clue we have towards IX imo. Or I could just be reaching, who knows.

@Kylo Rey

One doesn't have to preclude the other. Kylo WAS technically ascendent in TLJ and IS at the height of his power now. He's the big dog of the First Order side with nobody above him and almost no one person who can challenge his strength without a lot of effort. The Resistance is in shambles because of his actions. The person who kept a boot on his head for so many years is gone; slayed by his hand. He may even internalize that mindset for a while and think that way at the start of IX. That doesn't mean he truly and emotionally feels that way deep down.

The way we last saw Kylo is a strong and very purposeful image. If he's meant to be a complete villain who is solid in his new path, he would not be shown on his knees looking forlorn after just staring up at a woman he made a strong connection with and sporting ridiculous puppydog eyes. Rian knew exactly what he was doing and it wasn't particularly subtle at all. I would bet a lot of money on the narrative being a 'heavy is the head that wears the crown' one like you said.

ZioRen wrote:

Kylo Rey wrote:Haven't seen this posted here. Rian Johnson talking about Kylo in a recent issue of SFX Magazine (this is within the context of Rian choosing not to give Snoke a backstory)

"It's all about Rey. It's about Kylo. Especially once I realised that Kylo was going to be ascendant in this film, and take a position of power at the end of it. At that point Snoke could be used much more effectively as someone that Kylo bests and moves past, as opposed to ending the movie just on the same note as the Emperor and apprentice relationship.

He's said similar things regarding this in the past, but here's an interesting short meta on this point:

Anon: Based on something you reblogged, since you’re really good with meta...when Rian says “Kylo was going to be ascendant” it makes me wonder if we’re misinterpreting the end of the movie. Like most Reylo shippers and Kylo meta writers have the consensus that he was emotionally beaten down at the end of Crait and in his last scene with Rey, but if the filmmaker’s intent was to have him be “ascendant” reaching the high point of his power, does that mean he’s being set up as a complete villain in IX?

Long story short, I don’t think so. At least, I don’t think the writers intend to turn him into the dragon to be slain at the end of the trilogy if that’s your concern. However, Kylo certainly earned his central place as the antagonist in the eyes of the general audience, which is good! They’re finally taking him seriously (way less ‘Crylo Ren’ and derogatory comments about him being a wimp or a wannabe Darth Vader as far as I can see when I step outside of Tumblr).

Force Awakens isn’t as symbolically charged as Last Jedi, but something that always struck me is how Kylo was metaphorically impotent. Both Rey and Kylo were stuck in childhood. The big difference is that Rey ‘chose’ to remain a child (she condemned herself to stay on Jakku, waiting for her parents, keeping the same hairdo, etc…) whereas Kylo was infantilized and castrated at every turn by his entourage (Lor San Tekka scolding him for 'what he had become’, Han calling him 'a boy’, Snoke acting as a patriarchal figure, etc…) and later by Rey, who stripped him of his power.

That’s why I believe that when Rian said “Kylo was going to be ascendant” he meant that the character was going to take his power back. And two things that The Last Jedi did extremely well (in parallel) was to sexualize Kylo/Ben and empower him, metaphorically and literally. For instance, he finally found the strength to kill Snoke and take the power that was 'promised’ to him since he was a kid. But what we saw on Crait is that, well perhaps the ultimate power wasn’t what he craved at all.

The last scene with Rey shows him at his most powerful - he’s the Supreme Leader - but also as his lowest point - he’s alone, broken and extremely vulnerable. From there - shipping goggles aside - I truly believe that the only option for the character is to heal and reach his true state, which is definitely not villainy.

Villains don’t say please.

http://red-applesith.tumblr.com/post/174153395672/based-on-something-you-reblogged-since-youre

What I find significant is the recent databank updates to Kylo's section. If you recall, the databank was updated in early 2017 to reflect Rey and Kylo's mysterious connection and intertwined destinies - something that Reylos had been speculating for a long time but it was nice to finally have the confirmation. In terms of future speculation for TLJ, some didn't believe that they would spoil something so big (which was a reasonable assumption at the time) but it did turn out to be a very literal and huge spoiler for a massive and central part of their relationship. Personally, I think that latest update about how "it didn't feel like a victory" for Kylo isn't just solely spelling out what some people still couldn't grasp about his final scene, but also telling us something similar in terms of his mindset and future developments for IX and for a 'heavy is the head that wears the crown' narrative. It's the first solid clue we have towards IX imo. Or I could just be reaching, who knows.

@Kylo Rey

One doesn't have to preclude the other. Kylo WAS technically ascendent in TLJ and IS at the height of his power now. He's the big dog of the First Order side with nobody above him and almost no one person who can challenge his strength without a lot of effort. The Resistance is in shambles because of his actions. The person who kept a boot on his head for so many years is gone; slayed by his hand. He may even internalize that mindset for a while and think that way at the start of IX. That doesn't mean he truly and emotionally feels that way deep down.

The way we last saw Kylo is a strong and very purposeful image. If he's meant to be a complete villain who is solid in his new path, he would not be shown on his knees looking forlorn after just staring up at a woman he made a strong connection with and sporting ridiculous puppydog eyes. Rian knew exactly what he was doing and it wasn't particularly subtle at all. I would bet a lot of money on the narrative being a 'heavy is the head that wears the crown' one like you said.

@ZioRen

I'm all for a 'heavy is the head that wears the crown' narrative. Of all the possible directions that have been posited for Kylo to follow in IX, this seems like the most natural and organic continuation of his characterisation to me. The Hamlet parallels are already pretty on the nose, but ever since I heard of that rumour that's what I want most for his character in IX (but without the tragic ending). Grappling with guilt, loneliness, wallowing in misery and sorrow, teetering on the edge of existential despair - give me all of it lol, I'm a sucker for angst. It all builds towards making a redemption more palatable for the audience too and would serve to deepen and enrichen Kylo's character even further.

On another note, despite all the comparisons to the Darcy's, Rochester's, Heathcliffs, Erik's and all the other Byronic heroes populating classic lit, I really do believe that the most apt and 1:1 comparison for Kylo (a pretty contradictory, rare and layered character) is Rodion Raskolnikov from Dostoyevsky's Crime and Punishment, because unlike a lot of the other comparisons, these two have both committed horrible unspeakable crimes that they both try to justify towards themselves, and as Adam Driver often puts it- it's all in the service of him believing that he's doing what is right.

*They're both young (handsome) men
*They're both nihilistic
*Kylo has Vader as the ultimate and perfect reference for the Dark Side user and what he should strive to be; Raskolnikov has Napoleon for the Great Man
*Both commit a horrible crime in service of something they think they want (Kylo killing his father to free himself of his pain and gain strength in the DS; Raskolnikov killing the old women to prove himself of being the Extraordinary Man Napoleon was)
*Both feel remorse and are weakened immediately after committing the crime. This is a great and very specific parallel, as I haven't seen it too often in lit or media.
*Both are in a constant state of deep, agonising, soul splitting conflict and are haunted by their actions. A large part (and arguably the main part) of their characters revolve around suffering and guilt.
*Raskolnikov becomes extremely paranoid and it's arguable that Kylo has paranoia that has been shaped by trauma and continuous feeling of betrayal
*Kylo does share a touch of Raskolnikov's arrogance
*Both have an extremely important, potentially life changing relationship with the woman they fall in love with from a lower class (Rey and Sonia). It is intensely spiritual and rooted in a need to understand and forgiveness (although Rey is way more independent and stronger than Sonia is).

Funnily enough, Raskolnikov had arguably even less of a reason to kill his victims than Kylo did, and knowingly chose to do it -an argument often levelled against Kylo- with full clarity of mind (no Snoke there), along with being incredibly arrogant at the beginning and yet he still reached Redemption lol (it does involve self-exile). And yet it's one of the greatest stories of philosophical existentialism with a deep understanding of the human soul. I find that pretty funny. Or maybe it speaks to Dostoyevsky's sheer strength as a writer. He does manage to make Raskolnikov strangely likeable even after all he does.

@californiagirl
I haven’t seen either of these ladies’ work but it astonishes me that somebody can produce insightful stuff like this:

californiagirl wrote:If indeed they are collaborating, I would get excited because Lindsay's videos are top-notch stuff. There's one on Twilight and how it wasn't the worst thing ever and how people have issues with teen girls and the things they like, one on romanticizing/sexualizing movie monsters as inspired by The Shape of Water[/], and a 3-part, documentary-length analysis of the Hobbit movies and their production woes, for which she went to New Zealand's Hobbiton, where she also interviewed one of the actors who played a dwarf in the trilogy.

californiagirl wrote:She stopped delivering SW hot takes shortly after this, as she realized how awful and toxic the "discourse" around TLJ was.

yet at the same time do this:

californiagirl wrote:This should be interesting since she really liked TLJ, but also said said a few very nasty things about Kylo and his fans and shippers back in December, while Jenny is Kylo redemption stan supreme. It was odd because Lindsay is normally very reasonable and intelligent, but she is also very sensitive to anything she considers political. She didn't understand why Kylo was shirtless for anything other than cynical corporate reasons, even though she is normally acutely aware of things like gender, storytelling, writers' intents, framing, etc., and does her research thoroughly. I honestly think she saw Kylo as so far down the "bad guy" spectrum that it might not have even occurred to her that he was being objectified for Rey and actual storytelling reasons (like nude Chris Pine for Wonder Woman).

Out of curiosity - is Lindsay Ellis actually anti reylo and/or anti redemption? Has she ever said or at least suggested that reylo is abusive and/or racist, Rey’s better off alone cos ‘being a strong woman character and a role model she needs no man to weaken her characterisation’ or that Kylo’s ‘a privileged fascist and represents toxic masculinity’ etc.? Or is she simply oblivious to reylo and redemption clues? Cos if it’s the latter, then, well, it happens - there’re people who need time to get it and it’s nice they’re open-minded enough to change their opinion upon solid arguments. However, if she’s indeed pretty much an anti, then it’s quite fascinating .
@rawpowah

rawpowah wrote:Interesting. Did she have a change of heart?

I've seen some of her videos (the Twilight and Shape ones included), but I had no idea she said something about Kylo and his fans and shippers. It's really bizarre that she notices all the monster romance themes and tropes in The Shape of Water and defends Twilight, while at the same time criticizing Kylo Ren fans and shippers and being totally oblivious to Reylo and the tropes there. I hope she's not the type who thinks we like Kylo because we can fix him or something

OH s***!





From an official John Williams concert and LucasFilm credited with providing the clips... now who's getting that LOVE THEME!

Lol what are the "JW thinks Rey is a Skywalker" crowd gonna say. The post-TLJ validation continues.

Also lol @ some of the ppl in the mentions having a meltdown. @kaludiasays in particular is having a breakdown right now. She deserves it. Nasty person.

Kylo Rey wrote:OH s***!





From an official John Williams concert and LucasFilm credited with providing the clips... now who's getting that LOVE THEME!

Lol what are the "JW thinks Rey is a Skywalker" crowd gonna say. The post-TLJ validation continues.

Also lol @ some of the ppl in the mentions having a meltdown. @kaludisays in particular is having a breakdown right now. She deserves it. Nasty person.

@Kylo Rey

This is huuuge!

I wanna see IX already - and the long-awaited reylo kiss with the epic reylo theme playing throughout the whole scene! And make it looong to make up for the lack of reylo kisses and all the angst in TFA and TLJ!  

Kylo Rey wrote:OH s***!





From an official John Williams concert and LucasFilm credited with providing the clips... now who's getting that LOVE THEME!

Lol what are the "JW thinks Rey is a Skywalker" crowd gonna say. The post-TLJ validation continues.

Also lol @ some of the ppl in the mentions having a meltdown. @kaludiasays in particular is having a breakdown right now. She deserves it. Nasty person.

@Kylo Rey

Omfg this is amazing.

I can't wait for the love theme in IX and the kissing. I feel like TLJ has been building up to this, so that's why I'm okay we didn't get a kiss then.

rawpowah wrote:

Kylo Rey wrote:OH s***!





From an official John Williams concert and LucasFilm credited with providing the clips... now who's getting that LOVE THEME!

Lol what are the "JW thinks Rey is a Skywalker" crowd gonna say. The post-TLJ validation continues.

Also lol @ some of the ppl in the mentions having a meltdown. @kaludiasays in particular is having a breakdown right now. She deserves it. Nasty person.

@Kylo Rey

Omfg this is amazing.

I can't wait for the love theme in IX and the kissing. I feel like TLJ has been building up to this, so that's why I'm okay we didn't get a kiss then.

@rawpowah

I know right?!? I just became waaaaay more confident of getting a Reylo love theme now (the force theme playing over their moments threw me for a loop but it was probably too early anyway). Also the girl asking the question above said she's currently investigating as to whether this was LFL approved, so hopefully we get an update on that. Either way, this is huge. Reylo is just getting more and more acknowledgement and becoming mainstream by the day. Honestly starting to wonder how the marketing for IX will look like now. Also, proof of LFL crediting the clips:



Thinking about it, if LFL knew they were providing clips for all three of those (Anakin & Padme, Han & Leia, Rey & Kylo) the first thing that comes to mind is romantic context and it makes me think it was LFL approved.

@nana7marie I think it's more an issue with Kylo than Reylo. I don't think she dislikes the character, but maybe some of the reaction he got. She's spoken before about how difficult it is for audiences to take romance seriously and not as insubstantial or shallow or somehow regressive. She loves PotO and even tweeted Rian when he admitted he had never seen its terrible sequel Love Never Dies. Disney's Beauty and the Beast is one of her favorite movies ever. It's not anti-romance, or claiming Reylo is racist, etc.

She called him a faschie sadboy and was appalled that people believed he was the real victim, and some of the same goes for Marvel's Loki fans as well. It was weirdly out of whack for someone who picks up on a film's intents (she even picked up on The Hobbit's King Thorin having tormented romantic lead framing, why she didn't see that with Kylo on the first viewing is beyond me). If you don't want people to woobify him, then maybe the piece of media in question shouldn't encourage it. She just discovered the SW shipping wars after TLJ, so it was all a surprise to her.

She also didn't like Infinity War partly because it wasn't a character-driven movie outside of Thanos, who she did not like because he (SPOILER) did a genocide of half of all life in the universe with the Infinity Gauntlet, as a sort of way to prevent overpopulation (ties into his tragic backstory), but it doesn't make the most sense and people also think he is a sympathetic villain. There one point where he says of his plan "not in a political way of course" and she said sarcastically that apolitcal genocide is the best genocide. I don't think his plan is supposed to make sense to anyone beside himself, but I wonder is she sees Kylo and Thanos in the same way. Hux would be more akin to Thanos, except Hux is worse as he reveled in Starkiller Base, even Thanos felt sad (even if he's still not justified). She is VERY sensitive to political things. But she's also much more intelligent and reasonable than most of the internet. The extent to which she dislikes 95% of film You Tube is actually kind of funny. She would probably agree with some of the sentiments about YT "stars" discussed here.

All of that was in probably the week following TLJ's release (except the IW part). Her entire Twitter account disappeared for several weeks shortly thereafter. She wasn't the happiest constantly being plugged into social media, and has since been more sparing in her posting, something I've noticed a number of public figures have to do. It really isn't healthy to be so connected to the internet all the time, especially for those with big followings. She did not deliver more SW commentary, except the odd comment/like/retweet from someone else who liked TLJ or thought the fan outcry was ridiculous. So paired with Jenny the Kylo Bendemption fan, it will be interesting to see what this turns out to be.

Also, Lindsay has never done a video about SW before. LotR, Disney, Marvel, Transformers, you name it. But never SW. She is probably smart for having avoided its often-terrible fandom for this long.