ARCHIVE: Can Kylo Be Redeemed? - 1

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:  
My fav:

"I don't care if Kylo has to be redeemed or whatever as long as Rey has nothing to do with it. In fact, she deserves never to have to set eyes on that monster ever again."

The only reason they would want them to never see each other again is because their scenes always transpire into some form of heavy breathing and staring into each other's eyes. They are a hero and villain who have each witnessed the other's greatest fears. They know things about each other nobody else has ever known, and that's fascinating! I'm on the edge of my seat to see where the writers take that dynamic because it's unique, full of potential and very worthy of SW.

CienaRee wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:I can't help but think that if people see Rey feeling compassion for Kylo is 'weakness', then they're acting like Snoke!!

@motherofpearl1
Right?It just frustrates me to no end that it's most likley because idolzie her and think she's a little girl who needs protection frombad evil Kylo. the father-son relationship between Luke and Vader.I'm not even sure it's about sexism because I haven't seen anyone  questioning how Luke can love Vader agter all the atsrocaties he's commited and for that matter they're not really blaming Leia or calling her weak for loving and wnating her son back eventhough she's aware he's done horribale things.I certantly don't see anyone saying how loving your parent/child despite him being a killer sends an awful message to people so where is this crap coming from?
I also completly agree about Rey finding something of worth to love in Kylo as the man he is.I mean even if he redeems himself he'll never be the Ben Solo from before.Too much has happened and Kylo himself seems to believe it's too late for him to be that person again.Some people say that Kylo is delusional and while that is true to an extent I think deep down he knows fully well that what he's doing is wrong and that Snoke is evi(him telling Han it's too late for him is a goof example of it) but he chooses to ignore it because it's easier to live beliving you're doing a right thing than live in guilt.

Macha Ren wrote:part of the reason the antis don't want Rey to be compassionate sounds a lot like the plot to Footloose

music leads to dancing leads to touching leads to feelings leads to ZOMG sex.

Seriously, that is their argument for why Rey cannot be a compassionate person to him. This is exactly what it boils down to.

* Identifying and targeting the victim. Any child or teen may be a potential victim. Some predators may be attracted to children and youth with certain characteristics or may target youth with certain co-existing factors—such as vulnerable parents—to facilitate the crime.

*Gaining trust and access. The perpetrator may observe the child and assesses his/her vulnerabilities to learn how best to approach and interact with the child. Perpetrators may offer the victims special attention, understanding and a sympathetic ear, and then engage the child in ways that eventually gain their friendship and trust (they may play games with victims or give them rides, provide them with gifts and/or special treats).

*Playing a role in the child’s life. The perpetrator may manipulate the relationship so that it appears he or she is the only one who fully understands the child or meets the child’s needs in a particular way. A perpetrator may also exploit a youth’s empathy and convince the young person that s/he is the only one who understands the perpetrator and reinforce that the perpetrator “needs” the child or youth.

*Isolating the child. Offering the child rides and/or taking the child out of his or her surroundings is one way that the perpetrator may separate the child from others and gain access to the child alone, so that others cannot witness the abuse. (Note that in other instances, perpetrators have been successful in molesting victims without detection while other adults were in the room.)

*Creating secrecy around the relationship. The perpetrator may reinforce the special connection with the victim when they are alone or through private communication with the victim (such as letters, emails or text messages), and strengthen it with admonitions against telling anyone, lest others be unhappy about it. The perpetrator may threaten the victim with disclosure, suicide, physical harm to the child or loved ones, or other traumas if he or she tells.

*Initiating [inappropriate Force] contact. With the power over the child victim established through emotional connection coercion or one of the other tactics, the perpetrator may eventually initiate physical contact with the victim. It may begin with [benign Force-related communications] that is not overtly [abusive] (though a predator may find it [personally] gratifying) and that may appear to be casual (arm around the shoulder, pat on the knee, etc.). Gradually, the perpetrator may introduce more [contact/bonding through the Force.] By breaking down inhibitions and desensitizing the child, the perpetrator can begin overtly [manipulate] the child.

*Controlling the relationship. Perpetrators rely on the secrecy of the relationship to keep it going, and to ensure that the child will not reveal the abuse. Children are often afraid of disclosing the abuse. They may have been told that they will not be believed, or that something about the child “makes” the abuser do this to them. The child may also feel shame, or fear that they will be blamed. Often, the perpetrator threatens the child to ensure that s/he won’t disclose the abuse.

Macha Ren wrote:Honestly I think for Kylo to start down the redemption path, he first needs to learn to forgive himself. Ben was his first victim and he needs to realize the first person he hurt was himself. Yes, he has made some horrible, unforgivable decisions as an adult, but it all started when he was a child. He was groomed, he was twisted to believe wrong was right and that evil can be good. He needs to realize that some of his consent he gave in the whole Snoke dynamic when he was younger was not valid because he was a child.

Somehow the concept of grooming became forbidden in conversations, but if you look at the dynamic of grooming, it is hard to see him the victim of sustained trauma and abuse. These bulletpoints come from a crime victim resource on line ( https://victimsofcrime.org/media/reporting-on-child-sexual-abuse/grooming-dynamic-of-csa. ) And no, I'm not saying he was abused that way. But the grooming dynamic is still valid. I have substituted reference to sexual abuse with themes in brackets in the below text

* Identifying and targeting the victim. Any child or teen may be a potential victim. Some predators may be attracted to children and youth with certain characteristics or may target youth with certain co-existing factors—such as vulnerable parents—to facilitate the crime.

*Gaining trust and access. The perpetrator may observe the child and assesses his/her vulnerabilities to learn how best to approach and interact with the child. Perpetrators may offer the victims special attention, understanding and a sympathetic ear, and then engage the child in ways that eventually gain their friendship and trust (they may play games with victims or give them rides, provide them with gifts and/or special treats).

*Playing a role in the child’s life. The perpetrator may manipulate the relationship so that it appears he or she is the only one who fully understands the child or meets the child’s needs in a particular way. A perpetrator may also exploit a youth’s empathy and convince the young person that s/he is the only one who understands the perpetrator and reinforce that the perpetrator “needs” the child or youth.

*Isolating the child. Offering the child rides and/or taking the child out of his or her surroundings is one way that the perpetrator may separate the child from others and gain access to the child alone, so that others cannot witness the abuse. (Note that in other instances, perpetrators have been successful in molesting victims without detection while other adults were in the room.)

*Creating secrecy around the relationship. The perpetrator may reinforce the special connection with the victim when they are alone or through private communication with the victim (such as letters, emails or text messages), and strengthen it with admonitions against telling anyone, lest others be unhappy about it. The perpetrator may threaten the victim with disclosure, suicide, physical harm to the child or loved ones, or other traumas if he or she tells.

*Initiating [inappropriate Force] contact. With the power over the child victim established through emotional connection coercion or one of the other tactics, the perpetrator may eventually initiate physical contact with the victim. It may begin with [benign Force-related communications] that is not overtly [abusive] (though a predator may find it [personally] gratifying) and that may appear to be casual (arm around the shoulder, pat on the knee, etc.). Gradually, the perpetrator may introduce more [contact/bonding through the Force.] By breaking down inhibitions and desensitizing the child, the perpetrator can begin overtly [manipulate] the child.

*Controlling the relationship. Perpetrators rely on the secrecy of the relationship to keep it going, and to ensure that the child will not reveal the abuse. Children are often afraid of disclosing the abuse. They may have been told that they will not be believed, or that something about the child “makes” the abuser do this to them. The child may also feel shame, or fear that they will be blamed. Often, the perpetrator threatens the child to ensure that s/he won’t disclose the abuse.

If Snoke was contacting Ben "since the beginning", that means an age you can count on one hand. Consent for such a relationship cannot be given by a child. He was a victim. Period. There is no wiggling out of it.

He needs to forgive himself for being manipulated by Snoke. Yes, he has made horrid decisions as an adult, but those decisions and sense of entrapment stem from hard-wired behavior reinforced since childhood.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

I thought this was somewhat of consequence to "redemption." It's a joke, but one Pablo has made a few times, so it's clearly something the production crew has discussed amongst themselves before. If Kylo is—in a way—meant to be a metaphor for over-entitled OT fanboys, are people really expecting him not to have his delusions shattered? He's basically comparing an entire (and enormous) group of fans to the Han Solo murdering villain. A metaphor like this, even one that is meant mostly as a joke, is only really effective if it pushes some major theme or proves a point.  In this case that point would be to show Kylo going from OT fanboy to tolerant, new age fan prepared to embrace the future of the franchise. That's actually pretty powerful!

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:My fav:

"I don't care if Kylo has to be redeemed or whatever as long as Rey has nothing to do with it. In fact, she deserves never to have to set eyes on that monster ever again."

motherofpearl1 wrote:By the way...one of my cats looks a lot like your avatar!!

motherofpearl1 wrote:'That monster'. Sigh.

You mean the 'monster' cursed with a power that left him open to the psychological manipulations of a real monster? The mentally ill kid so desperate for understanding he latches on to a complete stranger who's technically his enemy as a kindred spirit? The lost child who thinks his parents never loved or wanted him? The guy trying desperately to be a complete while sparing the life of a lowly trooper because he reminds him of himself?

That isn't a 'monster' in my book - far from it. As for Rey - what kind of a heroine do they think she is? Some kind of milksop wish fufillment of a 'perfect' person who never makes a mistake? Or a three dimensional complex character with her own conflicts, such as deliberately disfiguring her enemy after disarming and beating him even though moments before he'd practically offered her an olive branch?

Give me strength...

motherofpearl1 wrote:'That monster'. Sigh.

You mean the 'monster' cursed with a power that left him open to the psychological manipulations of a real monster? The mentally ill kid so desperate for understanding he latches on to a complete stranger who's technically his enemy as a kindred spirit? The lost child who thinks his parents never loved or wanted him? The guy trying desperately to be a complete while sparing the life of a lowly trooper because he reminds him of himself?

That isn't a 'monster' in my book - far from it. As for Rey - what kind of a heroine do they think she is? Some kind of milksop wish fufillment of a 'perfect' person who never makes a mistake? Or a three dimensional complex character with her own conflicts, such as deliberately disfiguring her enemy after disarming and beating him even though moments before he'd practically offered her an olive branch?

Give me strength...