ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 11

An excellent exploration of Kylo's character that references Jung's Modern Man in Search of a Soul in interesting ways, particularly in relation to the 'awakening' and how that ties Rey, Kylo and Finn's stories together.

http://f-venatrix.tumblr.com/post/151101952582/im-your-first-hmmm-who-is-your-favorite-sw

f-venatrix wrote:Kylo’s internal conflict produces a sort of psychic impasse — he is the personification of the disturbance or deadening in the Force that necessitates an “awakening” to restore balance.

In Modern Man in Search of a Soul, Jung wrote:

I know only one thing: that when to my conscious outlook there is no possible way of going ahead, and I am therefore “stuck,” my unconscious will react to the unbearable standstill.
This coming to a standstill is a psychic occurrence so often repeated in the evolution of mankind, that it has become the theme of many a fairy-tale and myth. We are told of the Open Sesame to the locked door, or of some helpful animal who finds the hidden way. We might put it this way: “getting stuck” is a typical event which, in the course of time, has evoked typical reactions and compensations. We may therefore expect with a certain degree of probability that something similar will appear in the reactions of the unconscious, as, for example, in dreams.
[…]
The archetypal image of the wise man, the saviour or redeemer, lies buried and dormant in man’s unconscious since the dawn of culture; it is awakened whenever the times are out of joint and a human society is committed to a serious error. […] When conscious life is characterized by one-sidedness and by a false attitude, then they are activated—one might say, “instinctively”—and come to light in the dreams of individuals and the visions of artists and seers, thus restoring the psychic equilibrium of the epoch.

Basically, according to Jung’s theory of “compensation” our unconscious finds a way to restore “psychic equilibrium” by drawing from its repository of archetypal images and motifs (which manifest in dreams and creative works). These images and motifs are archetypal in that they arise from our collective unconscious – a collective repository of symbols and ideas.

When the Force is “stuck” so to speak, how does it compensate? If the Force (the energy that “surrounds us and binds us”) is analogous to the collective unconscious, it finds a way to restore balance by evoking or awakening some compensating form—a hero archetype.
That hero archetype is fulfilled by Rey (or perhaps split in two and fulfilled by both Rey and Finn). For Kylo’s personal “coming to a standstill” or “one-sidedness,” I think the “compensation” is “the girl I’ve heard so much about” — someone Kylo has likely seen in a vision, or heard about through a seer, as an answer to his dark side disequilibrium.

BastilaBey wrote:An excellent exploration of Kylo's character that references Jung's Modern Man in Search of a Soul in interesting ways, particularly in relation to the 'awakening' and how that ties Rey, Kylo and Finn's stories together.

http://f-venatrix.tumblr.com/post/151101952582/im-your-first-hmmm-who-is-your-favorite-sw

f-venatrix wrote:Kylo’s internal conflict produces a sort of psychic impasse — he is the personification of the disturbance or deadening in the Force that necessitates an “awakening” to restore balance.

In Modern Man in Search of a Soul, Jung wrote:

I know only one thing: that when to my conscious outlook there is no possible way of going ahead, and I am therefore “stuck,” my unconscious will react to the unbearable standstill.
This coming to a standstill is a psychic occurrence so often repeated in the evolution of mankind, that it has become the theme of many a fairy-tale and myth. We are told of the Open Sesame to the locked door, or of some helpful animal who finds the hidden way. We might put it this way: “getting stuck” is a typical event which, in the course of time, has evoked typical reactions and compensations. We may therefore expect with a certain degree of probability that something similar will appear in the reactions of the unconscious, as, for example, in dreams.
[…]
The archetypal image of the wise man, the saviour or redeemer, lies buried and dormant in man’s unconscious since the dawn of culture; it is awakened whenever the times are out of joint and a human society is committed to a serious error. […] When conscious life is characterized by one-sidedness and by a false attitude, then they are activated—one might say, “instinctively”—and come to light in the dreams of individuals and the visions of artists and seers, thus restoring the psychic equilibrium of the epoch.

Basically, according to Jung’s theory of “compensation” our unconscious finds a way to restore “psychic equilibrium” by drawing from its repository of archetypal images and motifs (which manifest in dreams and creative works). These images and motifs are archetypal in that they arise from our collective unconscious – a collective repository of symbols and ideas.

When the Force is “stuck” so to speak, how does it compensate? If the Force (the energy that “surrounds us and binds us”) is analogous to the collective unconscious, it finds a way to restore balance by evoking or awakening some compensating form—a hero archetype.
That hero archetype is fulfilled by Rey (or perhaps split in two and fulfilled by both Rey and Finn). For Kylo’s personal “coming to a standstill” or “one-sidedness,” I think the “compensation” is “the girl I’ve heard so much about” — someone Kylo has likely seen in a vision, or heard about through a seer, as an answer to his dark side disequilibrium.

@BastilaBey

it's very interesting! Finally they will explore the Force in other ways, we know that Jedi and Sith are wrong, too much good vs too much bad and viceversa won't lead to anything. If you're too good and repress @ day, you are Dr Jeckyll. Your unconscious needs to compensate so you'll become Mr Hyde @ night. The truth is in the middle.

Interesting observation of this theme on a macroscopic level!

A collective shadow that arose because the weak ego of the New Republic could not repress it. Perhaps the First Order is the real beast responsible for so much collective harm instead of the beast who is really a prince under a spell. For all its insistence on rational technocratic order, the First Order may be closer to the opposite of order — the chaos that characterizes our primordial state of being – in that it may be motivated by an emotional purist impulse similar to the Third Reich. And to bring this back to Kylo, maybe he’s caught in the crushing maw of this primordial beast because he’s under his own ego-spell —the delusion that he can with his own superhuman will make the pain and “weakness” go away.)



This just came across my social media theme & thought it was worth sharing, because in the larger context of politics, it breaks down the motivations of the two male role models in his family as selfless versus selfish

What are the politics of Star Wars?

But instead let’s talk about Han Solo for a moment. The whole purpose of his character is to illustrate this larger point. If there’s any doubt whether Han is an Us or Me philosophy guy at the beginning of A New Hope, consider this line of dialogue, “Look, I ain’t in this for your revolution and I’m not in it for you, Princess. I expect to be well paid. I’m in for the money!” or “Let’s get one thing straight. I take orders from one person: me!” Or you could just notice his last name.

Fortunately, actions speak louder than words. By the film’s end, Han risks his life to save Luke and deliver a crushing blow to the Empire. And by the trilogy’s end, the guy who was only ever in it for his own enrichment lends his most valued possession—the Millennium Falcon—to Lando and is prepared to sacrifice the love of his life—Princess Leia—to Luke (unaware the two are siblings of course). Han migrates to the Us camp after realizing the value of sacrifice isn’t about who owes whom how many favors; rather it’s that being kind to others with no thought of reward pays back far greater dividends.

...

While Han may dabble with the Me philosophy, it’s best personified by Darth Vader. As Anakin Skywalker, he turned his back on his peers and superiors, convinced he alone could improve the galaxy. He acted out his own desires to further enrich himself, mistakenly believing that what was good for him benefited everybody.

His actions had consequences. As Vader he has no friends, only lackeys. As Vader he has no family, only a surrogate father he wishes to overthrow and a son who resists him. He doesn’t want to work with anybody; he wants them to work for him. Yes, he’s powerful and successful and can rock a black helmet better than anyone in the galaxy, but all that status and influence are lonely consolations.

I just have a talk with a SW fan who currently lean on Luke being the father because it's the easiest explanation but he did notice the sexual tension between Kylo and Rey when I just simply asked what he thinks about the two of them. He even asked me back whether will there be a romance happen between them, which I just answered with a I don't know, could be. At least he is open minded about the potential relationship between them. Obviously the tension are real between them!!!

@IoJovi
@ReyofLightSide
@snufkin

Busy day. That's why I answer quite late to your reply about the Han Solo's post. Again a very long post and a lot of speculation, sorry

Like @IoJovi, I am a huge fan of the theory that Rey and Ben not only shared visions of one another met in the past, and that's why I think that she may have something to do with what happened to Ben.

Here's why I think this is possible:

I) Reylo is supposed to parallel Anidala:

Well, Anakin & Padme met as they were still children, what is essential in the PT because:
- They met again around ten years later
- Anakin had been dreaming of Padme regularly
- Anakin was infatuated with Padme from the very beginning and could'nt forget her despite all these years apart : "From the moment I met you, all those years ago, not a day has gone by when I haven't thought of you"

II) The context of the "It is you" line does matter:

Some details provided both by the movie and the novelization provide us with clues that Kylo suspects from the very beginning who Rey is but does recognize her only when she gets his legacy lightsaber. What I find underrated is the fact that we focus a lot on the lightsaber itself but not on the context in which this happens. Kylo finally recognize Rey without doubt when she gets his legacy lightsaber in this snowy forest in the middle of the night. I may be wrong but I think that the place/the context is important because it could potentially have reminded Ben of something that he saw in visions or that he witnessed in the past


III) Rey's vision is central to understand her background and her relationship  to Ben/Kylo, especially the intriguing passage in the snow forest

1) Something obviously happened in a snowy forest in the past

Reading both the adult and junior novelization, the most intriguing thing for me is that Rey's witnesses not one but two different battles. The first one is the scene with Kylo and the Knights of Ren that happens on a "grassy field". More intriguing is a second battle that she hears as she kneels in a snowy forest.

The question is then: does it belong to the past or to the future? This could of course refer to the scene on the the Starkiller Base when Rey lies unconcious and hears the sounds of the lightsabers and the space battle. However, I think that the scene between Kylo and Rey in the snowy forest refers to something that actually happened in the past:

a) "Deep in the forest, she heard the sounds of war. The ping of blasters. The sizzle of lightsaber. Death." ==> we learn that:
- The  battle involves lightsabers: Well, the Siths were destroyed and the Knights of Ren (except Kylo) do not use these weapons. So this could refer to Luke's academy, that was destroyed years before TFA
- The battle involves blasters: Knowing that Finn was taken away from his family from birth, this means that the FO rose very early after the Empire fell just as the Rebel Alliance rose quickly after the Empire rose. So we may assume that Luke's academy could have fought the FO or at least the ennemies of the Republic quite early. In all cases, blasters refer to civil weapons so there's the idea that the battle involves both lightsabers and blasters, perhaps even lightsaber vs. blasters.
- There is no indication of a space battle

b) The scene is presented from a child's point of view

- Rey hears "the sounds of unknown forest creatures" ==> I would rather interpret this detail as the vision of a scared child than an adult
- "Stay here, I'll come back sweetheart" ==> It is clear that Rey "can handle herself" very well. I can hardly imagine that someone would talk to her like that. So I think that the line was told as she was a child.

c) Rey could be our Star Wars' Cosette

Like all French people, I studied some excerpts of Les Miserables in litterature class, and I became a huge fan of the story after reading the book. From the first time I read the TFA novelization, the passage about the snowy forest reminded of the passage where Cosette is alone in the woods. Here's the comparison between TFA novelizations and Les Miserables:

We get:
- A dark and snowy forest ==> "frémissement nocturne de la forêt"/ "la nuit en hiver"
- The sound of forest creatures  ==> "fantômes de la nuit et des bois"
- A little girl alone in this forest ==> "C'était un enfant de huit ans"
Bonus: We don't know exactly how old was Rey as she was left on Jakku but the actress playing little Rey was eight, like Cosette
- A man clocked in black appears ==> "une grande forme noire"

IV) Mon Prince est en chemin déjà

Les Miserables is first and foremost a litterature masterpiece but is also well-known around the world because of the musical that inspired the last film version. In this famous musical, the original version of the song "Castle in the Cloud" is different from the English version and I foundt it striking how  Rey parallels Cosette. The original title is "Mon Prince est en Chemin déjà" (My Prince is on his way already").

Here's the song + translation:

http://hearthemizziessing.deviantart.com/journal/Castle-on-a-Cloud-vs-Mon-Prince-est-En-Chemin-Deja-435169228
"I will have to go on working, without a rest [...] And it doesn't hurt as much as my loneliness"

"I have no mother, no father, nor a doll
My prince is on his way already, I don't know what he will be like
But I know he'll come tomorrow, my prince is already on his way"


1) So if the parrallel with Les Miserables proves to be true be possible: could it be that Rey and Ben/Kylo met in the past in a snowy forest with a battle in a background, which happened before she was left on Jakku? ==> This brings major questions:
a) Why was Rey alone in a forest (Takodana? - because first meeting between Kylo and Rey)?
b) Why would have she met Ben/Kylo there?
c) How did she arrive from a snowy forest to this desert planet? Who took the decision to leave her there?

2) From there, here's what we know from Les Miserables:
a) Cosette was left by her mother under the care of Les Thénardiers and became then an orphan after Fantine died
b) Jean Valjean first promised Fantine that he would bring her back and then promised that he would care for her after Fantine's death
c) Jean Valjean indeed kept his promise and was the one who came back for Cosette and took her under his wing


3) Now, here's what we know about Rey:
a) She was indeed left under the care of Unkar Plutt who is sort of Thenardier in way of treating her like a slave. BUT there is a big difference between Rey & Cosette: Fantine left her daughter because she saw in Mrs. Thenardier and her daughter a good mothers and loving sisters for Cosette. In TFA, it is clear that Rey was left under the care of someone who could never be considered as a good father figure. What's more, Cosette was left in good health, in a beautiful house and with all the necessary outfit, which was obviously not Rey's case ==> From there, it is hard to imagine that any parent would leave their daughter in such awful living conditions that can't be ignored.
b) "Whomever you're waiting for on Jakku, they're never coming back..." ==> It is interesting to note that Maz Kanata doesn't speak of people who left Rey on Jakku but people whom she is waiting for. The nuance is important because this make it possible that the people who left Rey are different from the people whom she's waiting for. What's more, Maz's word about her family never coming back makes me think that Rey's parents died, the question being: when, how & why? I may be completely wrong but something leads me to think that this no accident that Rey was alone in a forest with a battle in bakground. Could it be that her parents found death in this context?
c) "...but there's someone who still could" ==> We know that Valjean met Fantine as she was in an awful situation, was informed that she had a child and swear to go after her. Knowing that, could it be that Ben/Kylo met Rey's mother during the battle, couldn't "save" her but swear to save the child after she died? Now there's a big difference between Ben/Kylo and Jean Valjean: While Valjean was an experimented human-being, it is hard to imagine young Ben/Kylo take a child under his wing and runaway with her until she's an adult. So the question is: what did he do? Is he the one who left her on Jakku? Well, this is very much possible but I would rather say no because...

V) "Stay here, I'll come back for you! I'll come back sweetheart, I promise"

In a her brillant posts/videos, gwendy85 gathered all clues obviously proving that the voice delivering the line to Rey is Kylo Ren's. The question until now was to know whether it belongs to the past or the future? Some elements make me think that it is neither of them because...


1) Rey has been haunted by (Kylo's) voice during her Jakku years and we even learn that the voice comes as it pleases as if she could'nt control it, sometimes being absent but sometimes being permanently there

2) Rey & Kylo obviously had a sleeping Force Bond already, allowing them nethertheless to have visions (Rey's Force vision) and to communicate (It's Ben!) prior to their meeting. So could it be that the Force Bond was always there from the early years spent by Rey on Jakku? Then could it be that they communicated through the Force Bond without to notice it?

3) I find it strange that the Kylo's legacy lightsaber shows a vision of Rey being left on Jakku. If it was his lightsaber, then could it be that the lightsaber actually shows to Rey Kylo's memories and obsessions? Then, why would the lightsaber show a vision of a little girl being left on a desert planet? Either it belongs to Kylo's memory or it depicts his obsession, what comes regularly through his mind. And the fact is that the lightsaber not only show Rey as a little girl but we hear the little girl crying and screaming "come back!" repeatedly, at least 10 times in the whole sequence. So could it be that Kylo has been haunting by Rey's voice/vision for years in a way that it became on obsession?

4) Rey: "Come back!"/Kylo: "Stay here! I'll come back for you!I'll come back sweetheart, I promise": Gathering all the elements above, I come to the following speculation: Did Ben/Kylo actually was the one who always wanted to come back for Rey but didn't manage to find her location? If Kylo and Rey were indeed haunted by visions/voices of the other, then it could be possible that they communicate without knowing it, Rey screaming "Come back!" and Kylo answering "Stay here, I'll come back for you!" each time that he had a vision of her being left on a desert place, without knowin which planet it was. This could explain why Rey was so afraid to leave Jakku, knowing that someone was meant to come back for her. This could also explain the use of the term "sweetheart" that expresses some familiarity.

5) Kylo's behavior proves how he desperately tries to find out who Rey is...
-His abrupt reaction to the information about a girl having left the desert planet Jakku
-His sudden interest ("I leave that to you!" at the beginning of the film) for the search for the droid after he gets the information about the girl
- He runs after the girl instead of the droid
-He "studies her face from behind his mask" (TFA novelization, Takodana scene)
- "Something" - He sounded mystified - "There is something. Who are you?" (TFA novelization, Takodana scene)
- "Is it true? - He sounded disappointed - you're nothing special after all...You're just a scavenger from Jakku" (TFA novelization, Takodana scene)
- "Is it true - he finally asked - you're just a scavenger? (TFA novelization, Interrogation scene)
- "Ah! - he thought to himself - "Something there of interest! Not the image of the map, that would take another moment, but definitely something worth investigating!" - he shifted his perception toward it, seeking to identify, to analyze, to... the barrier he encountered stoped him cold!

...and finally gazes at her like that after he realizes without any doubt who she is:

From the moment I met you, all those years ago, not a day has gone by when I haven't thought of you. And now that I'm with you again...


6) Whomever left Rey on Jakku had obviously no very good intentions toward her:
- The parallel with Anakin & Luke & Rey growing up on desert planet ends where the comparison of their living conditions begin. Anakin was born a slave but grew up under the care of a loving mother, with the opportunities to have fun with his friends and not being espacially mistreated by his master. Luke grew up under the care of his uncle & aunt and under the eyes of Obi-Wan Kenobi after the Jedi masters took the time to analyze what would be the best for him in regard of the perillous situation. Rey was left abruptly under the care of a real slave driver and had to survive by scavenging the whole day just to earn one quarter portion at the end of the day. I might add: how a little girl could survive in such living conditions? It is hard to imagine that the goal behind it was to protect her.
- The TFA novelization reveals that Rey has no memory of her parents despite being old enough to have such memories. What's more, Kylo encounters a barrier in her mind when he gets interested in a specific thing and it is textually said that "it makes no sense" and "the probe went nowhere" as if is cleared or something like that. So could it be that part Rey's memories were erased? ==> If this is right, this leads to the following conclusions:
* Kylo is definitely not the one who erased the memories
* The person that did it was a force-sensitive and could handle his/her force powers very well
* The person obviously wanted Rey to remain on this desert planet waiting for people who wouldn't come back for her


So, my guess is that there are three key groups of persons playing a big role in Rey's heroin journey for the next episode, knowing that she'll be at least "physically or emotionally hurt":
1) The people she's desperately waiting for but who can never come back (her family)
2) The people who abandoned her on the desert planet
3) The person she's is not expecting but who is meant to come back for her (Ben/Kylo)

Idk where to put this because we don't have a HUX THREAD

https://www.tumblr.com/video/diminished-comet/150967374230/700/

I LOVE OVER-DRAMATIC LEGO HUX

Damn right!!

@reylo1992

If you are posting from France, it's 6 PM PST where I am, so I hope you get some sleep after writing up such a detailed and well thought out response! @Irina de France has also written about Les Miserable parallels, especially about Rey being like Cosette.

I've thought about whether or not whomever left her on Jakku was FS powerful enough to lock down her memories for safety sake. My guess is that there are parallels between whatever happened to her with the scene with Poe and BB-8, "I'll come back for you, it'll be alright!"

reylo1992 wrote:@IoJovi
@ReyofLightSide
@snufkin

Busy day. That's why I answer quite late to your reply about the Han Solo's post. Again a very long post and a lot of speculation, sorry

Like @IoJovi, I am a huge fan of the theory that Rey and Ben not only shared visions of one another met in the past, and that's why I think that she may have something to do with what happened to Ben.

Here's why I think this is possible:

I) Reylo is supposed to parallel Anidala:

Well, Anakin & Padme met as they were still children, what is essential in the PT because:
- They met again around ten years later
- Anakin had been dreaming of Padme regularly
- Anakin was infatuated with Padme from the very beginning and could'nt forget her despite all these years apart : "From the moment I met you, all those years ago, not a day has gone by when I haven't thought of you"

II) The context of the "It is you" line does matter:

Some details provided both by the movie and the novelization provide us with clues that Kylo suspects from the very beginning who Rey is but does recognize her only when she gets his legacy lightsaber. What I find underrated is the fact that we focus a lot on the lightsaber itself but not on the context in which this happens. Kylo finally recognize Rey without doubt when she gets his legacy lightsaber in this snowy forest in the middle of the night. I may be wrong but I think that the place/the context is important because it could potentially have reminded Ben of something that he saw in visions or that he witnessed in the past


III) Rey's vision is central to understand her background and her relationship  to Ben/Kylo, especially the intriguing passage in the snow forest

1) Something obviously happened in a snowy forest in the past

Reading both the adult and junior novelization, the most intriguing thing for me is that Rey's witnesses not one but two different battles. The first one is the scene with Kylo and the Knights of Ren that happens on a "grassy field". More intriguing is a second battle that she hears as she kneels in a snowy forest.

The question is then: does it belong to the past or to the future? This could of course refer to the scene on the the Starkiller Base when Rey lies unconcious and hears the sounds of the lightsabers and the space battle. However, I think that the scene between Kylo and Rey in the snowy forest refers to something that actually happened in the past:

a) "Deep in the forest, she heard the sounds of war. The ping of blasters. The sizzle of lightsaber. Death." ==> we learn that:
- The  battle involves lightsabers: Well, the Siths were destroyed and the Knights of Ren (except Kylo) do not use these weapons. So this could refer to Luke's academy, that was destroyed years before TFA
- The battle involves blasters: Knowing that Finn was taken away from his family from birth, this means that the FO rose very early after the Empire fell just as the Rebel Alliance rose quickly after the Empire rose. So we may assume that Luke's academy could have fought the FO or at least the ennemies of the Republic quite early. In all cases, blasters refer to civil weapons so there's the idea that the battle involves both lightsabers and blasters, perhaps even lightsaber vs. blasters.
- There is no indication of a space battle

b) The scene is presented from a child's point of view

- Rey hears "the sounds of unknown forest creatures" ==> I would rather interpret this detail as the vision of a scared child than an adult
- "Stay here, I'll come back sweetheart" ==> It is clear that Rey "can handle herself" very well. I can hardly imagine that someone would talk to her like that. So I think that the line was told as she was a child.

c) Rey could be our Star Wars' Cosette

Like all French people, I studied some excerpts of Les Miserables in litterature class, and I became a huge fan of the story after reading the book. From the first time I read the TFA novelization, the passage about the snowy forest reminded of the passage where Cosette is alone in the woods. Here's the comparison between TFA novelizations and Les Miserables:

We get:
- A dark and snowy forest ==> "frémissement nocturne de la forêt"/ "la nuit en hiver"
- The sound of forest creatures  ==> "fantômes de la nuit et des bois"
- A little girl alone in this forest ==> "C'était un enfant de huit ans"
Bonus: We don't know exactly how old was Rey as she was left on Jakku but the actress playing little Rey was eight, like Cosette
- A man clocked in black appears ==> "une grande forme noire"

IV) Mon Prince est en chemin déjà

Les Miserables is first and foremost a litterature masterpiece but is also well-known around the world because of the musical that inspired the last film version. In this famous musical, the original version of the song "Castle in the Cloud" is different from the English version and I foundt it striking how  Rey parallels Cosette. The original title is "Mon Prince est en Chemin déjà" (My Prince is on his way already").

Here's the song + translation:

http://hearthemizziessing.deviantart.com/journal/Castle-on-a-Cloud-vs-Mon-Prince-est-En-Chemin-Deja-435169228
"I will have to go on working, without a rest [...] And it doesn't hurt as much as my loneliness"

"I have no mother, no father, nor a doll
My prince is on his way already, I don't know what he will be like
But I know he'll come tomorrow, my prince is already on his way"


1) So if the parrallel with Les Miserables proves to be true be possible: could it be that Rey and Ben/Kylo met in the past in a snowy forest with a battle in a background, which happened before she was left on Jakku? ==> This brings major questions:
a) Why was Rey alone in a forest (Takodana? - because first meeting between Kylo and Rey)?
b) Why would have she met Ben/Kylo there?
c) How did she arrive from a snowy forest to this desert planet? Who took the decision to leave her there?

2) From there, here's what we know from Les Miserables:
a) Cosette was left by her mother under the care of Les Thénardiers and became then an orphan after Fantine died
b) Jean Valjean first promised Fantine that he would bring her back and then promised that he would care for her after Fantine's death
c) Jean Valjean indeed kept his promise and was the one who came back for Cosette and took her under his wing


3) Now, here's what we know about Rey:
a) She was indeed left under the care of Unkar Plutt who is sort of Thenardier in way of treating her like a slave. BUT there is a big difference between Rey & Cosette: Fantine left her daughter because she saw in Mrs. Thenardier and her daughter a good mothers and loving sisters for Cosette. In TFA, it is clear that Rey was left under the care of someone who could never be considered as a good father figure. What's more, Cosette was left in good health, in a beautiful house and with all the necessary outfit, which was obviously not Rey's case ==> From there, it is hard to imagine that any parent would leave their daughter in such awful living conditions that can't be ignored.
b) "Whomever you're waiting for on Jakku, they're never coming back..." ==> It is interesting to note that Maz Kanata doesn't speak of people who left Rey on Jakku but people whom she is waiting for. The nuance is important because this make it possible that the people who left Rey are different from the people whom she's waiting for. What's more, Maz's word about her family never coming back makes me think that Rey's parents died, the question being: when, how & why? I may be completely wrong but something leads me to think that this no accident that Rey was alone in a forest with a battle in bakground. Could it be that her parents found death in this context?
c) "...but there's someone who still could" ==> We know that Valjean met Fantine as she was in an awful situation, was informed that she had a child and swear to go after her. Knowing that, could it be that Ben/Kylo met Rey's mother during the battle, couldn't "save" her but swear to save the child after she died? Now there's a big difference between Ben/Kylo and Jean Valjean: While Valjean was an experimented human-being, it is hard to imagine young Ben/Kylo take a child under his wing and runaway with her until she's an adult. So the question is: what did he do? Is he the one who left her on Jakku? Well, this is very much possible but I would rather say no because...

V) "Stay here, I'll come back for you! I'll come back sweetheart, I promise"

In a her brillant posts/videos, gwendy85 gathered all clues obviously proving that the voice delivering the line to Rey is Kylo Ren's. The question until now was to know whether it belongs to the past or the future? Some elements make me think that it is neither of them because...


1) Rey has been haunted by (Kylo's) voice during her Jakku years and we even learn that the voice comes as it pleases as if she could'nt control it, sometimes being absent but sometimes being permanently there

2) Rey & Kylo obviously had a sleeping Force Bond already, allowing them nethertheless to have visions (Rey's Force vision) and to communicate (It's Ben!) prior to their meeting. So could it be that the Force Bond was always there from the early years spent by Rey on Jakku? Then could it be that they communicated through the Force Bond without to notice it?

3) I find it strange that the Kylo's legacy lightsaber shows a vision of Rey being left on Jakku. If it was his lightsaber, then could it be that the lightsaber actually shows to Rey Kylo's memories and obsessions? Then, why would the lightsaber show a vision of a little girl being left on a desert planet? Either it belongs to Kylo's memory or it depicts his obsession, what comes regularly through his mind. And the fact is that the lightsaber not only show Rey as a little girl but we hear the little girl crying and screaming "come back!" repeatedly, at least 10 times in the whole sequence. So could it be that Kylo has been haunting by Rey's voice/vision for years in a way that it became on obsession?

4) Rey: "Come back!"/Kylo: "Stay here! I'll come back for you!I'll come back sweetheart, I promise": Gathering all the elements above, I come to the following speculation: Did Ben/Kylo actually was the one who always wanted to come back for Rey but didn't manage to find her location? If Kylo and Rey were indeed haunted by visions/voices of the other, then it could be possible that they communicate without knowing it, Rey screaming "Come back!" and Kylo answering "Stay here, I'll come back for you!" each time that he had a vision of her being left on a desert place, without knowin which planet it was. This could explain why Rey was so afraid to leave Jakku, knowing that someone was meant to come back for her. This could also explain the use of the term "sweetheart" that expresses some familiarity.

5) Kylo's behavior proves how he desperately tries to find out who Rey is...
-His abrupt reaction to the information about a girl having left the desert planet Jakku
-His sudden interest ("I leave that to you!" at the beginning of the film) for the search for the droid after he gets the information about the girl
- He runs after the girl instead of the droid
-He "studies her face from behind his mask" (TFA novelization, Takodana scene)
- "Something" - He sounded mystified - "There is something. Who are you?" (TFA novelization, Takodana scene)
- "Is it true? - He sounded disappointed - you're nothing special after all...You're just a scavenger from Jakku" (TFA novelization, Takodana scene)
- "Is it true - he finally asked - you're just a scavenger? (TFA novelization, Interrogation scene)
- "Ah! - he thought to himself - "Something there of interest! Not the image of the map, that would take another moment, but definitely something worth investigating!" - he shifted his perception toward it, seeking to identify, to analyze, to... the barrier he encountered stoped him cold!

...and finally gazes at her like that after he realizes without any doubt who she is:

From the moment I met you, all those years ago, not a day has gone by when I haven't thought of you. And now that I'm with you again...


6) Whomever left Rey on Jakku had obviously no very good intentions toward her:
- The parallel with Anakin & Luke & Rey growing up on desert planet ends where the comparison of their living conditions begin. Anakin was born a slave but grew up under the care of a loving mother, with the opportunities to have fun with his friends and not being espacially mistreated by his master. Luke grew up under the care of his uncle & aunt and under the eyes of Obi-Wan Kenobi after the Jedi masters took the time to analyze what would be the best for him in regard of the perillous situation. Rey was left abruptly under the care of a real slave driver and had to survive by scavenging the whole day just to earn one quarter portion at the end of the day. I might add: how a little girl could survive in such living conditions? It is hard to imagine that the goal behind it was to protect her.
- The TFA novelization reveals that Rey has no memory of her parents despite being old enough to have such memories. What's more, Kylo encounters a barrier in her mind when he gets interested in a specific thing and it is textually said that "it makes no sense" and "the probe went nowhere" as if is cleared or something like that. So could it be that part Rey's memories were erased? ==> If this is right, this leads to the following conclusions:
* Kylo is definitely not the one who erased the memories
* The person that did it was a force-sensitive and could handle his/her force powers very well
* The person obviously wanted Rey to remain on this desert planet waiting for people who wouldn't come back for her


So, my guess is that there are three key groups of persons playing a big role in Rey's heroin journey for the next episode, knowing that she'll be at least "physically or emotionally hurt":
1) The people she's desperately waiting for but who can never come back (her family)
2) The people who abandoned her on the desert planet
3) The person she's is not expecting but who is meant to come back for her (Ben/Kylo)

@reylo1992

I have also had a very long day, so it will take some time and a few re-reads to digest your very intriguing post. However, I did have a thought while reading it, and I wanted to put it down before I forgot. I too am a huge believer in the shared visions. I also think that possibly he had a vision of his "mystery girl" holding the lightsaber, that's what confirmed something for him. But I wanted to ask, have you read Aftermath: Life Debt? If you haven't, I would recommend it, as I think its canon value will be even higher than the novelization (there seems to have been some LF Storygroup disorganization around some of th early books, particularly the adult novelization, but they seem to have found their stride now). Aftermath will have a third part that comes out in early 2017 ... and there is a pretty good argument to be made that Ben may be born on Jakku, since Leia is very pregnant in Aftermath 2. Also, the back cover of Aftermath 3 shows Rey's destroyed ATAT, and says something like " with every end there is a beginning." We have also speculated that Ben may somehow encounter Snoke and/or be marked by his influence at that time. The craziest speculation of all is Ben is born in the AT-AT. So let's go crazy for a moment and say all this speculation is true. What if in the process of be marked by Snoke, Ben's soul made a permanent connection to that place, so in some ethereal way he has felt her all along? And being FS she has felt him? Also, what if in this process he has taught her a few things? And craziest of all, what if she was born or put there by the Force right when Snoke got something of a toehold in Ben ... like she is the Jungian compensation that I think @mana was talking about somewhere and what if the "shadow" he leaves with her is like that "snake into boy" tale that @vaderito and @Maria Antonietta were talking about?

Just thinking out loud of course, but thank you for inspiring some musings. :-)

OK this is fun to read, from Time Out London's list of rankings for all characters. Though given spoilers, it's not going to be Finn she'll be handling in VIII

50 Best Star Wars Characters

#17 Kylo Ren
Who is he?
The villain of ‘The Force Awakens’ – and (spoiler alert) the wayward son of Han Solo and Princess Leia, who turned, or was led, to the Dark Side following his Jedi training at the hands of Luke Skywalker, and is now in an almighty teenage piss about everything in the universe.

Why do we love him?
Because he’s just a big stroppy kid, albeit one with 1,000 armoured legions and a planet-shattering death laser at his disposal – also, JJ Abrams hasn’t come out and said it, but we reckon he’s having a sly pop at ‘Star Wars’ fanboys in Kylo’s obsession with Darth Vader’s scorched helmet (oo-er). The scenes between Adam Driver’s Kylo and Daisy Ridley’s Rey are the most dramatic in ‘The Force Awakens’, first his abortive attempt to torture her with the force, followed by his realisation of her untapped power and their thrilling climactic lightsaber smackdown. This is one character we’re dying to see more of.

Key line: ‘Wait! I can show you the power of the Dark Side!’

#13 Rey
Who is she?
The mysterious heroine of ‘The Force Awakens’, a young orphan with a hidden past who dreams of escape from her drab, backwater existence – but when she gets the chance, isn’t sure if adventure was such a great idea after all.

Why do we love her?
Because she’s like something out of an old-fashioned British kids adventure novel: plucky, proud and a bit posh, with nerves of steel and a whip-smart mouth. Watching actress Daisy Ridley bound up those stone steps on the planet Ahch-To in the final moments of ‘The Force Awakens’, we couldn’t help but be reminded of the BBC fantasy stories we loved as kids: ‘The Owl Service’ or ‘The Secret Garden’, perhaps, with their feisty stage-school heroines. The way she ‘handles’ John Boyega’s Finn is hilarious, too – we can’t wait to see where that relationship goes.

Key line: ‘You will remove these restraints and leave this cell with the door open.’

So I was wondering if Disney and LCF would make a movie version of Typhon and Ossus. Tython was the Je'daii original home planet where they practice both sides of the Force to seek balance, the planet even have two moon that stands for the Light and Dark Side of the Force: Ashla where the sun always shines and Bogan the place of eternal darkness. And when a member start to lean toward a side they will go to the corresponding moon to the side they favors and spend time there until they become balance again. Tython was abandoned by the Je'daii and later become a stronghold for Sith's alike for some times. In Canon, it's said that the planet Had return to obscurity. While Ossus was the second home planet for the now Jedi and there're many Jedi temples on that still inhabited by people.

I just think that Ach-To could be the movie version for Ossus, because in comics, Ossus was rediscovery by Luke so he would at least know the ways to get there and after what happened to the Academy, Luke would want to go and find the important planet again. Or Luke could get his hands on some scriptures from LST and know about the planet.

And for some reason, I think that Snoke would be the one who stay on Tython or an equivalent planet in the movie because not only it was the very first place for the existence of both Jedi and Sith, it's very rich in The Force and also because the way Snoke values the power of both sides of the Force is resemble the belief of the first Je'daii. When they left Tython, the Je'daii try to bring as muck books as possible but there maybe some was left behind and Snoke first gain knowledge from them and then later on gather the rest somehow. Snoke is an ancient being so he could be a former Sith or Jedi who after badly injured, escaped and stumbled upon the planet?!  Also it would be cool to see Rey and Kylo duel with Snoke at the very birthplace of both Jedi and Sith,in the fight to brings balance to the Force

@reylo1992

EEEK! I'm so happy someone else noticed the Cosette parallels! I'm seriously considering writing a meta about the Les Mis/SW Sequel Trilogy parallels, because there are so much of them. I'll link you to it once it's done, if you're interested.

@reylo1992

Great meta! I love Les Miserable

Just to comment on your part 5

Yes I concluded months ago that Ren recognizes Rey the moment she pulls the saber, but so does Luke, and visually it is told with Ren ( dark Luke) and Luke himself...............

http://reylo.skyforum.net/t202p125-the-rey-kenobi-files ( META)

The clues for this discovery are both visual and narrative. The visual chiasmus has both Luke & Kylo facing Rey. Ren & Rey in darkness and Luke and Rey in light. Rey takes the light saber away from Kylo, and Rey returns it to Luke. Luke’s lightsaber is the key to her identity, and it is by her possession of it that they both acknowledge non verbally who she is.  JJ, choses the actor’s expressions to convey that they both recognize her, how successful where the actors and the movie in showing and not telling remains to be seen.  Since these two moments have become a Rorschach test by which many confirm their personal head canons and preferences and before we look outside the text or movie for confirmation on what an expression in a movie means it is probably to best look inside the movie first.





Well, in Kasdan’s parallel universe, we can surmise Kylo also knows Rey’s identity, and that is supported by the Novelization.

Rey appeared equally shocked that her reach for the device had exceeded his. She gazed down at the weapon now resting in her grip.
"It is you,” Ren murmured.
His words unsettled her: Not for the first time, he seemed to know more about her than she did about herself.


Now the joint dreams or visions are to me completely plausible, but what is connecting Reylo? Filoni has confirmed force bond in families, and since we know that Reylo are not brother and sister what is it that creates their connection in the force...?  I believe again it is the sabers and @Gemini has a great meta on how Rey's force back vision shows Kylo picking up a saber and having a vision of Rey in the past...these visions and dreams could have continued after that.


http://geminiwankenobi.tumblr.com/post/150654072989/the-hidden-lightsaber-and-how-lucasfilm-have

"After doing some digging and research, I feel that the that lightsaber tells you the possible time frame of the scene you are watching, it tells you who Kylo is killing and WHY. Whats more, it tells you exactly who Rey is.

But hey this is just my opinion, it could still be unimportant and just my head canon, but if you are interested in why I think this saber is the answer to lots of things, read on"










Also, just recently Starwars.com had a great blog about sabers and how finding them changes the paths of jedi's/force sensitives. Sabers are part of the call to adventure, and that would be for Kylo too, finding the saber and having a vision of the girl is his beginning to the path back to the light. I

WHEN A LIGHTSABER CHANGES HANDS, A JEDI TAKES A NEW PATH
JEDI WEAPONS OFTEN HAVE GREAT STORIES -- AND MEANING -- OF THEIR OWN.
http://www.starwars.com/news/when-a-lightsaber-changes-hands-a-jedi-takes-a-new-path

@SoloSideCousin I have to read again all that has been said about Bloodline. Snoke=snake, wasn't Leia feeling an evil presence (like a snake) when she was pregnant? If Leia knows who Snoke is, it is possible that she fell into his trap, and while she was carrying his baby, he put a spell on him. The spell can be only broken by the bride who marries the monster

@snufkin

I reassure you. I am not posting from France at the moment but from Montreal, so it was not sooo late  

@SoloSideCousin

No, I didn't read Aftermath: Life debt but as you recommend it, I should probably read it even more if it's considered canon.

I am generally careful with the content of the Star Wars novels because they give us some information that are sometimes completely debunked by the movie itself, i.e. even the novel Bloodline that is considered as canon made me sceptical because of the timeline. According to Claudia Gray, Ben is supposed to have turned as he was at 23 years old, what I find strange considering that both the movie (where he is referred as a boy and not as a man) and the novelization (where Han discovers his face as a grown man for the first time) rather give clues that he was still a teenager when that happened. I am looking forward to discover what Rian Johnson will do with the timeline in Ep. 8 because it's crucial for the plot.

You're right to remind me of that novel because the fact that the Aftermath trilogy is part of the "Journey to Star Wars:TFA" initiated by Disney/LucasFilm makes it definitely canon and trustworthy. So, your theory about Ben being born on Jakku and all its possible implications - including with Rey - makes a lot of sense in the context of Aftermath: Life debt. Then, this would give even more credit to the association of Ben to Ra/Eye of Ra, the whole symbolism pointed out by Sylvia Snow about Jakku and the line "Why does everyone want to go back to Jakku?" Anyway, I must read the novel!

However, I am still rather persuaded because of all the clues pointed out in my previous post  that Ben/Kylo at least already had some kind of emotional attachment to Rey prior to their meeting in TFA because their paths may have crossed before she was left on Jakku. Regarding the parrallel with the Miserables, the most important information to me isn't not necessarily about Rey paralleling Cosette but to what extent Kylo is meant to parrallel Jean Valjean and what does it  imply for his character and his journey.

Then, there is this big mystery around his fall to the dark side. In the PT, the audience finally discovered that Anakin became Darth Vader for far more complex reasons than being just an evil guy, so that it was meant to bring nuance and ambiguity to his character  and make the audience question where does evil really begins and whether Anakin's journey could be somehow "justified". So I guess that the same process may apply for Ben/Kylo. As I wrote in my previous post about Han Solo, I think that Disney intends to test the audience as much as the characters through nuance, ambiguity and emotional conflict in order to question where does good ends and evil begins.  I might add that the fact that we - the Reylo community - as part of the audience consider Reylo as canon is already a sort of moral test in itself (for who could ever love a beast?) because Kylo does act like a monster in TFA in a way that the Beast doesn't in B&B. . So although I am a Pro-Reylo, I can also understand the point of view of Anti-Reylo in this regard.

Considering what Kylo did in TFA, this leads me to think that the next episodes have to reveal something really big to make people question their point of view on him and make Reylo morally acceptable for both Rey herself and the largest part of the audience possible. I.e. Snape was probably one of the most hated characters in the Harry Potter franchise but the revelation of his commitment to Lily at the very end completely changed the way he was considered by both the characters and the audience. So what could Disney have thought to make that possible for Kylo?

I unfortunetely cannot find the source any more but I remember having read an interview where it was said that the audience would consider some key scenes in TFA with a new perspective after having watched the Ep. 8. My guess is that the Attack on the Jakku village as the opening scene may be a key scene in this regard. That may seem crazy but I ask myself whether Kylo and Finn could have more in common than expected or not. Of course, Finn is depicted as the anti Kylo Ren so that no bridge seems to rely them in any way: he choose to join the Light Side where Ben Solo chose to join the dark side in the past. However, their first scene together is very intriguing because of this weird Understanding moment. We can't know what goes through Kylo's mind and there are many possibilities to explain why he let Finn go although he obviously sensed his conflict feelings but, there is definitely something very intriguing behind it: Kylo just killed Lor San Tekka coldly and ordered to kill all the villagers in a similar way, so why wouldn't he kill a potential traitor? My speculation is that he has no reason to express any understanding toward a stormtrooper like Finn unless he recognizes himself in him and relate to him in this particular context, so again the context does matter. And what does Finn do during that scene:
- He is involved in his first battle for the FO
- He experiences a sort a awakening  and becomes aware of what's going on around him
- He is faced with the decision to kill for the FO a first time when he is in front of a female villager with her child, but can't bring himself to do it (deleted scene) ==> something tells me that the meaning of this deleted may be important
- He is face wuth the decision to kill for the FO a second time but cannot bring himself to do it
- He then takes the decision to run away from the FO

So in combination with all what I wrote in my two previous posts, it seems crazy to think that  but: How would the audience react if the next episode reveal that Finn in that specific scene actually mirrorred young Ben Solo's trajectory?

1) The political context portrayed by both TFA and Bloodlines:

Finn reveals that he was "taken from his family he would never know" and Hux confirmed that his men were programmed "from birth". I don't know how old is Finn in TFA - somewehre between Kylo and Rey I would say - but this implies that the FO formed quickly after the fall of the Empire so that the FO would parrallel the Rebel Alliance that formed after the fall of the Old Republic. This means that the menace was always there and that the Republic had to be protected against that. As the Jedi Knights are supposed to be the guardian of peace and justice in the Galaxy, we may assume that Luke's academy could have played some similar role.  

2) Finn: "I was raised to do one thing"

Even if Ben wasn't taken away from his family like Finn, he was sent away by Leia to become a jedi and somehow also raised to do one thing: bring peace and justice in the Galaxy. As a Padawan, he was certainly taught about the difference between the Dark and the Light Side and that the one is basically evil where the other is basically good. It makes even more sense that he was not told the truth about his grandfather to avoid some confusion in his mind.

3) Finn: "During my first battle..."

Like Finn, we may assume that Kylo was involved in some battles against ennemies. If the goal of the ST is to bring nuance and ambiguity, then we may assume that the depiction of the Light side as basically and only good may be questioned: Like Finn, did young Ben Solo witness some things that went to far and made him question what he was taught about the Light side and raised to do? Did he feel as lost as Anakin, not recognizing the line between both sides anymore? Again, some of Kylo's lines are intriguing enough to make me think that he has something to reproach:
"You speak of the FO as if we were barbaric"
"You mean the murders, traitors and thieves you call friends?"

If this theory makes sense, then the questions  are:
- Which battle was it?
- Where & when did he take place?
- Which characters were involved and what was their role?
- What happened during this battle that could be interesting for the plot?

In relation to my previous post, my impression is that this is perhaps no accident that Kylo's legacy lightsaber shows Rey a snowy forest in which she hears "the sound of war. The ping of blasters (FO?). The sizzle of lightsabers (Lukes's Academy?). Death" and that Kylo clocked in black shows up in front of her right after. And if the parallell between Finn & Ben makes sense, then why not this line delivered to Rey ?: “I ran right into you and you looked at me like no one ever had.”

It would be fun if such a battle occured on Takodana because:
- We must get an answer how, when and where Maz got Kylo's legacy lightsaber
- In TFA, Kylo & Rey met for the first time in the forest on Takodana as a battle occured so it could be a nice callback
- We don't know where Rey was born and where she lived prior her abandonment on Jakku but she seems to feel at home immediately in green places like Takodana

TFA is anyway an interesting puzzle (good job JJ Abrams!). I doubt that we'll find the right combination until Episode 8 comes in the theatre because the plot can takes very possible direction, including Kylo going darker and darker until he becomes the big villain. But it makes always fun to speculate, try to assemble pieces together and confirm/debunk what we think

Irina de France wrote:@reylo1992

EEEK! I'm so happy someone else noticed the Cosette parallels! I'm seriously considering writing a meta about the Les Mis/SW Sequel Trilogy parallels, because there are so much of them. I'll link you to it once it's done, if you're interested.

@Irina de France

Yes! That would be really great! I am a huge fan of both the novel and the film so it would be fun

reylo1992 wrote:@snufkin

I reassure you. I am not posting from France at the moment but from Montreal, so it was not sooo late  

@SoloSideCousin

No, I didn't read Aftermath: Life debt but as you recommend it, I should probably read it even more if it's considered canon.

I am generally careful with the content of the Star Wars novels because they give us some information that are sometimes completely debunked by the movie itself, i.e. even the novel Bloodline that is considered as canon made me sceptical because of the timeline. According to Claudia Gray, Ben is supposed to have turned as he was at 23 years old, what I find strange considering that both the movie (where he is referred as a boy and not as a man) and the novelization (where Han discovers his face as a grown man for the first time) rather give clues that he was still a teenager when that happened. I am looking forward to discover what Rian Johnson will do with the timeline in Ep. 8 because it's crucial for the plot.

You're right to remind me of that novel because the fact that the Aftermath trilogy is part of the "Journey to Star Wars:TFA" initiated by Disney/LucasFilm makes it definitely canon and trustworthy. So, your theory about Ben being born on Jakku and all its possible implications - including with Rey - makes a lot of sense in the context of Aftermath: Life debt. Then, this would give even more credit to the association of Ben to Ra/Eye of Ra, the whole symbolism pointed out by Sylvia Snow about Jakku and the line "Why does everyone want to go back to Jakku?" Anyway, I must read the novel!

However, I am still rather persuaded because of all the clues pointed out in my previous post  that Ben/Kylo at least already had some kind of emotional attachment to Rey prior to their meeting in TFA because their paths may have crossed before she was left on Jakku. Regarding the parrallel with the Miserables, the most important information to me isn't not necessarily about Rey paralleling Cosette but to what extent Kylo is meant to parrallel Jean Valjean and what does it  imply for his character and his journey.

Then, there is this big mystery around his fall to the dark side. In the PT, the audience finally discovered that Anakin became Darth Vader for far more complex reasons than being just an evil guy, so that it was meant to bring nuance and ambiguity to his character  and make the audience question where does evil really begins and whether Anakin's journey could be somehow "justified". So I guess that the same process may apply for Ben/Kylo. As I wrote in my previous post about Han Solo, I think that Disney intends to test the audience as much as the characters through nuance, ambiguity and emotional conflict in order to question where does good ends and evil begins.  I might add that the fact that we - the Reylo community - as part of the audience consider Reylo as canon is already a sort of moral test in itself (for who could ever love a beast?) because Kylo does act like a monster in TFA in a way that the Beast doesn't in B&B. . So although I am a Pro-Reylo, I can also understand the point of view of Anti-Reylo in this regard.

Considering what Kylo did in TFA, this leads me to think that the next episodes have to reveal something really big to make people question their point of view on him and make Reylo morally acceptable for both Rey herself and the largest part of the audience possible. I.e. Snape was probably one of the most hated characters in the Harry Potter franchise but the revelation of his commitment to Lily at the very end completely changed the way he was considered by both the characters and the audience. So what could Disney have thought to make that possible for Kylo?

I unfortunetely cannot find the source any more but I remember having read an interview where it was said that the audience would consider some key scenes in TFA with a new perspective after having watched the Ep. 8. My guess is that the Attack on the Jakku village as the opening scene may be a key scene in this regard. That may seem crazy but I ask myself whether Kylo and Finn could have more in common than expected or not. Of course, Finn is depicted as the anti Kylo Ren so that no bridge seems to rely them in any way: he choose to join the Light Side where Ben Solo chose to join the dark side in the past. However, their first scene together is very intriguing because of this weird Understanding moment. We can't know what goes through Kylo's mind and there are many possibilities to explain why he let Finn go although he obviously sensed his conflict feelings but, there is definitely something very intriguing behind it: Kylo just killed Lor San Tekka coldly and ordered to kill all the villagers in a similar way, so why wouldn't he kill a potential traitor? My speculation is that he has no reason to express any understanding toward a stormtrooper like Finn unless he recognizes himself in him and relate to him in this particular context, so again the context does matter. And what does Finn do during that scene:
- He is involved in his first battle for the FO
- He experiences a sort a awakening  and becomes aware of what's going on around him
- He is faced with the decision to kill for the FO a first time when he is in front of a female villager with her child, but can't bring himself to do it (deleted scene) ==> something tells me that the meaning of this deleted may be important
- He is face wuth the decision to kill for the FO a second time but cannot bring himself to do it
- He then takes the decision to run away from the FO

So in combination with all what I wrote in my two previous posts, it seems crazy to think that  but: How would the audience react if the next episode reveal that Finn in that specific scene actually mirrorred young Ben Solo's trajectory?

1) The political context portrayed by both TFA and Bloodlines:

Finn reveals that he was "taken from his family he would never know" and Hux confirmed that his men were programmed "from birth". I don't know how old is Finn in TFA - somewehre between Kylo and Rey I would say - but this implies that the FO formed quickly after the fall of the Empire so that the FO would parrallel the Rebel Alliance that formed after the fall of the Old Republic. This means that the menace was always there and that the Republic had to be protected against that. As the Jedi Knights are supposed to be the guardian of peace and justice in the Galaxy, we may assume that Luke's academy could have played some similar role.  

2) Finn: "I was raised to do one thing"

Even if Ben wasn't taken away from his family like Finn, he was sent away by Leia to become a jedi and somehow also raised to do one thing: bring peace and justice in the Galaxy. As a Padawan, he was certainly taught about the difference between the Dark and the Light Side and that the one is basically evil where the other is basically good. It makes even more sense that he was not told the truth about his grandfather to avoid some confusion in his mind.

3) Finn: "During my first battle..."

Like Finn, we may assume that Kylo was involved in some battles against ennemies. If the goal of the ST is to bring nuance and ambiguity, then we may assume that the depiction of the Light side as basically and only good may be questioned: Like Finn, did young Ben Solo witness some things that went to far and made him question what he was taught about the Light side and raised to do? Did he feel as lost as Anakin, not recognizing the line between both sides anymore? Again, some of Kylo's lines are intriguing enough to make me think that he has something to reproach:
"You speak of the FO as if we were barbaric"
"You mean the murders, traitors and thieves you call friends?"

If this theory makes sense, then the questions  are:
- Which battle was it?
- Where & when did he take place?
- Which characters were involved and what was their role?
- What happened during this battle that could be interesting for the plot?

In relation to my previous post, my impression is that this is perhaps no accident that Kylo's legacy lightsaber shows Rey a snowy forest in which she hears "the sound of war. The ping of blasters (FO?). The sizzle of lightsabers (Lukes's Academy?). Death" and that Kylo clocked in black shows up in front of her right after. And if the parallell between Finn & Ben makes sense, then why not this line delivered to Rey ?: “I ran right into you and you looked at me like no one ever had.”

It would be fun if such a battle occured on Takodana because:
- We must get an answer how, when and where Maz got Kylo's legacy lightsaber
- In TFA, Kylo & Rey met for the first time in the forest on Takodana as a battle occured so it could be a nice callback
- We don't know where Rey was born and where she lived prior her abandonment on Jakku but she seems to feel at home immediately in green places like Takodana

TFA is anyway an interesting puzzle (good job JJ Abrams!). I doubt that we'll find the right combination until Episode 8 comes in the theatre because the plot can takes very possible direction, including Kylo going darker and darker until he becomes the big villain. But it makes always fun to speculate, try to assemble pieces together and confirm/debunk what we think

@reylo1992

I have to disagree on the anti-reylo movement. It is acceptable if the characters won't develop, like they are rn, but in the biggest scheme of sw, an anti movement is the stupidiest thing ever, because if we have learned something from this franchise is that love always wins, in many forms. If Rey doesn't stop hating him, she won't ever become a grown-up woman, she needs to transform her "beast" in something positive. But you know that already

reylo1992 wrote:@snufkin

I reassure you. I am not posting from France at the moment but from Montreal, so it was not sooo late ;)  

@SoloSideCousin

No, I didn't read Aftermath: Life debt but as you recommend it, I should probably read it even more if it's considered canon.

I am generally careful with the content of the Star Wars novels because they give us some information that are sometimes completely debunked by the movie itself, i.e. even the novel Bloodline that is considered as canon made me sceptical because of the timeline. According to Claudia Gray, Ben is supposed to have turned as he was at 23 years old, what I find strange considering that both the movie (where he is referred as a boy and not as a man) and the novelization (where Han discovers his face as a grown man for the first time) rather give clues that he was still a teenager when that happened. I am looking forward to discover what Rian Johnson will do with the timeline in Ep. 8 because it's crucial for the plot.

You're right to remind me of that novel because the fact that the Aftermath trilogy is part of the "Journey to Star Wars:TFA" initiated by Disney/LucasFilm makes it definitely canon and trustworthy. So, your theory about Ben being born on Jakku and all its possible implications - including with Rey - makes a lot of sense in the context of Aftermath: Life debt. Then, this would give even more credit to the association of Ben to Ra/Eye of Ra, the whole symbolism pointed out by Sylvia Snow about Jakku and the line "Why does everyone want to go back to Jakku?" Anyway, I must read the novel! :)

However, I am still rather persuaded because of all the clues pointed out in my previous post  that Ben/Kylo at least already had some kind of emotional attachment to Rey prior to their meeting in TFA because their paths may have crossed before she was left on Jakku. Regarding the parrallel with the Miserables, the most important information to me isn't not necessarily about Rey paralleling Cosette but to what extent Kylo is meant to parrallel Jean Valjean and what does it  imply for his character and his journey.

Then, there is this big mystery around his fall to the dark side. In the PT, the audience finally discovered that Anakin became Darth Vader for far more complex reasons than being just an evil guy, so that it was meant to bring nuance and ambiguity to his character  and make the audience question where does evil really begins and whether Anakin's journey could be somehow "justified". So I guess that the same process may apply for Ben/Kylo. As I wrote in my previous post about Han Solo, I think that Disney intends to test the audience as much as the characters through nuance, ambiguity and emotional conflict in order to question where does good ends and evil begins.  I might add that the fact that we - the Reylo community - as part of the audience consider Reylo as canon is already a sort of moral test in itself (for who could ever love a beast?) because Kylo does act like a monster in TFA in a way that the Beast doesn't in B&B. . So although I am a Pro-Reylo, I can also understand the point of view of Anti-Reylo in this regard.

Considering what Kylo did in TFA, this leads me to think that the next episodes have to reveal something really big to make people question their point of view on him and make Reylo morally acceptable for both Rey herself and the largest part of the audience possible. I.e. Snape was probably one of the most hated characters in the Harry Potter franchise but the revelation of his commitment to Lily at the very end completely changed the way he was considered by both the characters and the audience. So what could Disney have thought to make that possible for Kylo?

I unfortunetely cannot find the source any more but I remember having read an interview where it was said that the audience would consider some key scenes in TFA with a new perspective after having watched the Ep. 8. My guess is that the Attack on the Jakku village as the opening scene may be a key scene in this regard. That may seem crazy but I ask myself whether Kylo and Finn could have more in common than expected or not. Of course, Finn is depicted as the anti Kylo Ren so that no bridge seems to rely them in any way: he choose to join the Light Side where Ben Solo chose to join the dark side in the past. However, their first scene together is very intriguing because of this weird Understanding moment. We can't know what goes through Kylo's mind and there are many possibilities to explain why he let Finn go although he obviously sensed his conflict feelings but, there is definitely something very intriguing behind it: Kylo just killed Lor San Tekka coldly and ordered to kill all the villagers in a similar way, so why wouldn't he kill a potential traitor? My speculation is that he has no reason to express any understanding toward a stormtrooper like Finn unless he recognizes himself in him and relate to him in this particular context, so again the context does matter. And what does Finn do during that scene:
- He is involved in his first battle for the FO
- He experiences a sort a awakening  and becomes aware of what's going on around him
- He is faced with the decision to kill for the FO a first time when he is in front of a female villager with her child, but can't bring himself to do it (deleted scene) ==> something tells me that the meaning of this deleted may be important
- He is face wuth the decision to kill for the FO a second time but cannot bring himself to do it
- He then takes the decision to run away from the FO

So in combination with all what I wrote in my two previous posts, it seems crazy to think that  but: How would the audience react if the next episode reveal that Finn in that specific scene actually mirrorred young Ben Solo's trajectory?

1) The political context portrayed by both TFA and Bloodlines:

Finn reveals that he was "taken from his family he would never know" and Hux confirmed that his men were programmed "from birth". I don't know how old is Finn in TFA - somewehre between Kylo and Rey I would say - but this implies that the FO formed quickly after the fall of the Empire so that the FO would parrallel the Rebel Alliance that formed after the fall of the Old Republic. This means that the menace was always there and that the Republic had to be protected against that. As the Jedi Knights are supposed to be the guardian of peace and justice in the Galaxy, we may assume that Luke's academy could have played some similar role.  

2) Finn: "I was raised to do one thing"

Even if Ben wasn't taken away from his family like Finn, he was sent away by Leia to become a jedi and somehow also raised to do one thing: bring peace and justice in the Galaxy. As a Padawan, he was certainly taught about the difference between the Dark and the Light Side and that the one is basically evil where the other is basically good. It makes even more sense that he was not told the truth about his grandfather to avoid some confusion in his mind.

3) Finn: "During my first battle..."

Like Finn, we may assume that Kylo was involved in some battles against ennemies. If the goal of the ST is to bring nuance and ambiguity, then we may assume that the depiction of the Light side as basically and only good may be questioned: Like Finn, did young Ben Solo witness some things that went to far and made him question what he was taught about the Light side and raised to do? Did he feel as lost as Anakin, not recognizing the line between both sides anymore? Again, some of Kylo's lines are intriguing enough to make me think that he has something to reproach:
"You speak of the FO as if we were barbaric"
"You mean the murders, traitors and thieves you call friends?"

If this theory makes sense, then the questions  are:
- Which battle was it?
- Where & when did he take place?
- Which characters were involved and what was their role?
- What happened during this battle that could be interesting for the plot?

In relation to my previous post, my impression is that this is perhaps no accident that Kylo's legacy lightsaber shows Rey a snowy forest in which she hears "the sound of war. The ping of blasters (FO?). The sizzle of lightsabers (Lukes's Academy?). Death" and that Kylo clocked in black shows up in front of her right after. And if the parallell between Finn & Ben makes sense, then why not this line delivered to Rey ?: “I ran right into you and you looked at me like no one ever had.”

It would be fun if such a battle occured on Takodana because:
- We must get an answer how, when and where Maz got Kylo's legacy lightsaber
- In TFA, Kylo & Rey met for the first time in the forest on Takodana as a battle occured so it could be a nice callback
- We don't know where Rey was born and where she lived prior her abandonment on Jakku but she seems to feel at home immediately in green places like Takodana

TFA is anyway an interesting puzzle (good job JJ Abrams!). I doubt that we'll find the right combination until Episode 8 comes in the theatre because the plot can takes very possible direction, including Kylo going darker and darker until he becomes the big villain. But it makes always fun to speculate, try to assemble pieces together and confirm/debunk what we think :)

@reylo1992

I'm glad you weren't awake at 3a writing your previous post! I agree with you about the further parallels between Finn and Ben/Kylo - that's why he sensed Finn's distress but initially didn't do anything.  And my own personal wish list is that when they face each other again, not only is Finn "kind of a big deal" in the Resistance, but that it's fully clear that these are the two most important men in Rey's life*.

*Finn as brother/best friend, other guy as "it's complicated"

This is interesting in that one panelist picks up a little on the potential dynamic and discussion was a week after TFA's release. Also about the set up for a confrontation w/Luke that ties in with the themes of RotJ's confrontation.

Bonus LOLs but he gets called Darth Emo, Darth Hot Topic, Darth Guy from Girls, Darth Hipster, Darth Pabst Blue Ribbon, Darth Obsrst (Bright Eyes joke FTW) etc. No mention of @Lily Snape's Darth Boyfriend, however!

Making Sense of the Force Awaken's Villains

Adams: So I realize that this doesn’t make sense if Rey is Luke’s kid (and thus Kylo/Ben’s cousin), but what if the twisted relationship between good guy and bad guy in the series isn’t familial but romantic? Will they explore the possibility that romantic love is what it takes to turn Kylo back to the Light side of the Force? (I realize this is also problematized by the fact that the meet-cute was a torture scene where the guy had the girl bound, and by the fact that the guy killed the girl’s adopted-father-figure, but movies have done stranger things). I guess what I’m saying is – will #KyloRey be a thing?

Again with the Draco and Hermione comparisons! I didn't even know that was a thing until I started reading about the reaction to Reylo, but aside from them kinda hating each other, I don't see the similarity. Draco and Hermione aren't the protagonist and antagonist. At least these guys brought up the possibility, I guess.

Maria Antonietta wrote:@SoloSideCousin I have to read again all that has been said about Bloodline. Snoke=snake, wasn't Leia feeling an evil presence (like a snake) when she was pregnant? If Leia knows who Snoke is, it is possible that she fell into his trap, and while she was carrying his baby, he put a spell on him. The spell can be only broken by the bride who marries the monster

@Maria Antonietta

Yes.  But the part you're thinking of is from Life Debt. 

Spoiler:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

Maria Antonietta wrote:@SoloSideCousin I have to read again all that has been said about Bloodline. Snoke=snake, wasn't Leia feeling an evil presence (like a snake) when she was pregnant? If Leia knows who Snoke is, it is possible that she fell into his trap, and while she was carrying his baby, he put a spell on him. The spell can be only broken by the bride who marries the monster

@Maria Antonietta

Yes.  But the part you're thinking of is from Life Debt. 

Spoiler:

@SoloSideCousin

cool! I need those books

BastilaBey wrote:Again with the Draco and Hermione comparisons! I didn't even know that was a thing until I started reading about the reaction to Reylo, but aside from them kinda hating each other, I don't see the similarity. Draco and Hermione aren't the protagonist and antagonist. At least these guys brought up the possibility, I guess.

@BastilaBey

That comparison is way off. It's annoying to see it brought up as a proof that crazy shippers just can't help pairing up a good girl with a bad boy.

Also, if you're doing a hero/villain romance that goes from hate to love, the villain needs to do terrible things that the heroine is going to hate him for, at the start of the story. Otherwise, where's the reversal and drama? This is not a romantic story, but would the Arya and Hound dynamic on GoT be as compelling if it didn't start off with her hating his guts for killing her friend?

Saracene wrote:

BastilaBey wrote:Again with the Draco and Hermione comparisons! I didn't even know that was a thing until I started reading about the reaction to Reylo, but aside from them kinda hating each other, I don't see the similarity. Draco and Hermione aren't the protagonist and antagonist. At least these guys brought up the possibility, I guess.

@BastilaBey

That comparison is way off. It's annoying to see it brought up as a proof that crazy shippers just can't help pairing up a good girl with a bad boy.

Also, if you're doing a hero/villain romance that goes from hate to love, the villain needs to do terrible things that the heroine is going to hate him for, at the start of the story. Otherwise, where's the reversal and drama? This is not a romantic story, but would the Arya and Hound dynamic on GoT be as compelling if it didn't start off with her hating his guts for killing her friend?

@Saracene

Or jaime and brienne *love eyes*

@saracene Exactly, and Draco is an annoying little twerp but he hardly fills that role. There isn't a comparable dynamic in Harry Potter because Voldemort and Harry have the father and son dynamic.

The thing that I wish people would pay more attention to is what's being set up as the overall theme of the trilogy and how Rey and Kylo fit into that. There's a certain amount of speculation, sure, we only have the first piece. But the first lines of dialogue are about the force being out of balance. Then we meet a conflicted darksider, who's feeling the pull to the light against his will. Then we meet a heroine who seems to be light, but then is tempted by the darkness as she defeats him. They get into each other's heads, see each other's fears. Both are lonely, afraid to leave, can't quite bring themselves to acknowledge their pasts. 

What do fans really think is going to happen here, in the event that the two characters aren't related? It's not about cheesy romance, it's about a connection between two force sensitive characters who may have every reason to hate each other and yet seem like they could be kindred spirits. Maybe it just again comes back to people not wanting to be labeled as shippers but I really thought more would have wanted to explore the idea by this point. The movie's been out a long time.