ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 9

I consider that so many (mostly men?) missed the significance of the bridal carry to be a terrible indictment of the audience's visual literacy. Media has become too gendered and many do not bother to understand the signs and symbols used to tell female oriented stories.

I do not blame any individual that missed these signs (also the interrogation, unmasking, and teacher moments). But it has revealed to me how unvalued women's stories are that vast swaths of the audience cannot get it.

AnneNeville wrote:I consider that so many (mostly men?) missed the significance of the bridal carry to be a terrible indictment of the audience's visual literacy. Media has become too gendered and many do not bother to understand the signs and symbols used to tell female oriented stories.

I do not blame any individual that missed these signs (also the interrogation, unmasking, and teacher moments). But it has revealed to me how unvalued women's stories are that vast swaths of the audience cannot get it.

@AnneNeville
I agree.Unfortunately Holywood blockbusters nowadys doesn't really put much thought characters,symbols,ambiguity,etc and pretty much speels out to the audience all they need to know hence why they've stopped trying to look for signs or analyze things.I mean why do that when you expect the movie to do it for you?

I didn't get the importance of the bridal carry on my first viewing. In fact none of the signs jumped out at me (except the teacher moment maybe), I just got an impression of this low-level vibe that there's something strange going on between the characters.

Even later, the biggest reasons for me believing in Reylo are related to the bigger story, as in:

1) Kylo is obviously set up for redemption
2) It will have something to do with Rey because she's the main character
3) What redemptive story is there likely to be between a young man and young woman, in a series that thrives on big bold emotions?

Forsythia wrote:

Xylo Ren wrote:

CienaRee wrote:

Xylo Ren wrote:This is how it was supposed to happen in the movies (according to script, novels, and now Lego):



She falls to the ground and then he carries her.


This is what actually made the cut:



Makes a difference?

You decide.

@Xylo Ren

Right?That's why it's so funny when the antis try to make the excuse that we only saw the potential for romance because they're a man and a woman yet we Chewie carried Finn as well but we don't think they're going to have a romance.
It's kind of a big deal that they ended up changing the scene like it was originally suppose to be just like they changed seeing Kylo without a mask in the scene where he's with Snoke and Hux.
We're not imagining things the writers wanted us to see the differences and question the reasons for that.

@CienaRee

I will stand by the logic that he did not have to carry her at all unless he was alone (which he wasn't). And if he did have to carry her, he would not have carried her like that. Where did he learn that anyway? I wonder if he'd ever seen a man carry a woman like that. There are so many different ways to carry a person and he literally chose the most romantic looking one, even if he didn't mean to. It's just odd, and that's what stood out to me the first time I saw it. Not the snow fight choker shots, not the "I can take whatever I want", not the "I watched you sleep" stuff. It was the image of him carrying her so close to his body like this that burned in my mind as something very, very, odd. It was also the most overt romantic trope they used. It was risky but it's something that you could pick up on the first viewing, and then slowly see the other things on subsequent viewings.

The other thing that itched at my brain was the teacher proposal. It came out of left field.

@Xylo Ren

"Yes, exactly, exactly"   He could have let the Stormtroopers carry Rey instead of carrying her personally. It's such a contrast to the abduction of Poe, who is dragged on board by Stormtroopers. And Kylo could have just thrown Rey over his shoulder instead of carrying her bridal style, she wouldn't even have minded/noticed since she was unconscious.

@Forsythia

I like how they are still drawing attention to the fact that the stormtrooper is not asked to carry her (in the Lego one)

Saracene wrote:I didn't get the importance of the bridal carry on my first viewing. In fact none of the signs jumped out at me (except the teacher moment maybe), I just got an impression of this low-level vibe that there's something strange going on between the characters.

Even later, the biggest reasons for me believing in Reylo are related to the bigger story, as in:

1) Kylo is obviously set up for redemption
2) It will have something to do with Rey because she's the main character
3) What redemptive story is there likely to be between a young man and young woman, in a series that thrives on big bold emotions?

@Saracene

I think the bolded is what they were intending for people to come away with. All of the little details add up to an overall feeling, but you can then go back and actually break down the components if you're interested (which obviously many of us are). It's not them telling you "Kylo Ren is going to fall in love with Rey because he carried her like this", it's just supposed to incite a feeling. People maybe sat up a little straighter and wondered what the hell was going on, but it's possible not everyone could articulate why. A bridal carry is loaded with meaning, but because it's so iconic, most people probably don't even give it any thought.

Sheeeeet I just noticed something with that gif of him carrying her!

But I'm gonna have to see the full scene before I comment on it lol

BastilaBey wrote:

Saracene wrote:I didn't get the importance of the bridal carry on my first viewing. In fact none of the signs jumped out at me (except the teacher moment maybe), I just got an impression of this low-level vibe that there's something strange going on between the characters.

Even later, the biggest reasons for me believing in Reylo are related to the bigger story, as in:

1) Kylo is obviously set up for redemption
2) It will have something to do with Rey because she's the main character
3) What redemptive story is there likely to be between a young man and young woman, in a series that thrives on big bold emotions?

@Saracene

I think the bolded is what they were intending for people to come away with. All of the little details add up to an overall feeling, but you can then go back and actually break down the components if you're interested (which obviously many of us are). It's not them telling you "Kylo Ren is going to fall in love with Rey because he carried her like this", it's just supposed to incite a feeling. People maybe sat up a little straighter and wondered what the hell was going on, but it's possible not everyone could articulate why. A bridal carry is loaded with meaning, but because it's so iconic, most people probably don't even give it any thought.

@BastilaBey

Especially after hearing Maz's "That lightsaber was Luke's and his father's before his", the red herring line, all Kylo and Rey's interactions should feel very odd, maybe in a "I can't put my finger on it, but something is off" kind of way. Red herrings work because your rational brain latches onto one little bit of misleading information, thinks it has the puzzle worked out, and filters out any contrary information. Meanwhile, especially in scenes as loaded with sexual charge as our favorite villain and heroine's, your hind brain knows what's going on and you should get a gut feeling that something is off the mark.

All the little (well, no, really they're big. Made me feel dumb for not putting the clues together faster once it hit me) details they put into Kylo/Rey scenes are there for setup. Once we get the payoff, it would be weird to go back and watch TFA again and there not be any indication it was heading in that direction.

@meadowofashes Exactly, it's really been done very well. I'm not surprised most people don't see it now, it wasn't supposed to be something that everybody picked up on. Once episode VIII and IX are out, people will go back and watch TFA and think Kylo's one-sided fixation was plainly there to see, but it required you to not see them as related and to think he could be redeemed and that there will be twists in the story to allow Rey's feelings to change.

Sylvia Snow wrote:Ways of how Kylo could had carried Rey or is it the opposite?!

Yes! It would've been most practical for a trooper to carry her. After that, positions #1 and #2 would've made the most sense. That's how Anakin carried Obi wan in III after all

Gemini wrote:

Forsythia wrote:

Xylo Ren wrote:

CienaRee wrote:

Xylo Ren wrote:This is how it was supposed to happen in the movies (according to script, novels, and now Lego):



She falls to the ground and then he carries her.


This is what actually made the cut:



Makes a difference?

You decide.

@Xylo Ren

Right?That's why it's so funny when the antis try to make the excuse that we only saw the potential for romance because they're a man and a woman yet we Chewie carried Finn as well but we don't think they're going to have a romance.
It's kind of a big deal that they ended up changing the scene like it was originally suppose to be just like they changed seeing Kylo without a mask in the scene where he's with Snoke and Hux.
We're not imagining things the writers wanted us to see the differences and question the reasons for that.

@CienaRee

I will stand by the logic that he did not have to carry her at all unless he was alone (which he wasn't). And if he did have to carry her, he would not have carried her like that. Where did he learn that anyway? I wonder if he'd ever seen a man carry a woman like that. There are so many different ways to carry a person and he literally chose the most romantic looking one, even if he didn't mean to. It's just odd, and that's what stood out to me the first time I saw it. Not the snow fight choker shots, not the "I can take whatever I want", not the "I watched you sleep" stuff. It was the image of him carrying her so close to his body like this that burned in my mind as something very, very, odd. It was also the most overt romantic trope they used. It was risky but it's something that you could pick up on the first viewing, and then slowly see the other things on subsequent viewings.

The other thing that itched at my brain was the teacher proposal. It came out of left field.

@Xylo Ren

"Yes, exactly, exactly"   He could have let the Stormtroopers carry Rey instead of carrying her personally. It's such a contrast to the abduction of Poe, who is dragged on board by Stormtroopers. And Kylo could have just thrown Rey over his shoulder instead of carrying her bridal style, she wouldn't even have minded/noticed since she was unconscious.

@Forsythia

I like how they are still drawing attention to the fact that the stormtrooper is not asked to carry her (in the Lego one)

Exactly! The trooper even reaches out his hand as if he expected Kylo to command him to carry her.

Exclusive Celebration Europe covers for Star Wars Insider Mag. Rey and Kylo, the dark side and the light!




http://starwarsnonsense.tumblr.com/post/147042756414/the-celebration-exclusive-covers-for-star-wars

@Bastilabey

#whereisfinn?

Sorry, couldn't resist. xD

@frolickingfizzgig Haha, I thought you might say that! Evidently, tptb have decided there's a story to tell here and a few complaints won't change that. This is going to make them billions of dollars and Finn will have his own journey, possibly his own love interest, leading the Resistance to victory. Fans of each character should be satisfied by the trilogy in the end.

I guess #makefinnajedi didn't change their minds either?

Surprise there.

Gemini wrote:Sheeeeet I just noticed something with that gif of him carrying her!

But I'm gonna have to see the full scene before I comment on it lol

@Gemini

A new Easter egg? Or perhaps some camera angle significance?

No just a burst of light when he catches her

Um.....I know some of you are probably sick of hearing this from me, but I spotted yet more hidden hearts in that gif...

IoJovi wrote:Um.....I know some of you are probably sick of hearing this from me, but I spotted yet more hidden hearts in that gif...

@IoJovi
In all honesty I've never been able to see more than the major ones. I think it's just your eyes playing tricks on you, with the exceptions of maybe the big one between them in the woods, the eyes and the cliff. Other than that I think they're a total coincidence, and they might be coincidences overall. Human eyes do that. They're attuned to recognizable patterns, so it's only natural.

I don't think so, but we can agree to disagree.  The one on the right looks like the graphic design artist must have painted it on the tree.  It's *supposed* to be a shaft of light, but honestly, it looks more like it was patched on the frame.    

I send these to my mother all the time, and she's able to pick them out before I even tell her where they are.  I know I'm not seeing things.  

There's also one on the left that's a bit more subtle.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

IoJovi wrote:Um.....I know some of you are probably sick of hearing this from me, but I spotted yet more hidden hearts in that gif...

@IoJovi
In all honesty I've never been able to see more than the major ones. I think it's just your eyes playing tricks on you, with the exceptions of maybe the big one between them in the woods, the eyes and the cliff. Other than that I think they're a total coincidence, and they might be coincidences overall. Human eyes do that. They're attuned to recognizable patterns, so it's only natural.

@FrolickingFizzgig

I gotta agree. I have never seen any other hearts besides the one in the forest and the cliff being shaped like a heart too when Kylo is struggling on the deck. I have tried to see them but failed. Never the less, I wouldn't put things we see under the rug. I don't think many people are aware of the amount of effort and little details that go into some films. It really is amazing. I have so much appreciation for film makers who make an effort even with minor details that the general audience will more than likely over look.

Total tangent, but @guardienne and @armadeus brought up David Lean's Doctor Zhivago. Which can be cheesy as Hell (no matter what part of the world you're reading this from, I'll bet you've either heard an ice cream truck or telephone hold music play a tinny, slightly out of tune music box version of Lara's Theme), but which first of all, features none other than Obi-Wan himself (who was synonymous with Lean) as the narrator,  KGB Lieutenant General Yevgraf Andreyevich Zhivago, Yuri Zhivago's half brother, who's searching for the Zhivago and Lara's daughter, who was separated and lost from her mother during the collapse of the White-controlled government in Mongolia. She has very vague memories of her mother and grew up as an orphan, so the movie is essentially the Alec Guinness character telling her the story about his brother and his affair with Lara, because he believes that this young woman is his long lost niece.





It's funny to realize but I'm pretty sure having seen this movie enough times (though I'm way more a fan of Lawrence of Arabia and Bridge on the River Kwai, both also w/Guinness), that's probably a big part of the conclusion I came to with Rey. That something bad went down in terms of war or the Snoke/the FO, so she was separated from her parents. Then again, Lean's Lawrence of Arabia is acknowledged to have been a major influence on the original movie, so it's not like the filmmakers haven't also watched this movie as many times as I have!

Also interesting parallels, but one of the best performances (besides Rod Steiger as the vile and self serving Komarovsky) is Tom Courteney as Lara's childhood friend/husband, Pasha. Who goes from being a very idealistic and good hearted young man to re-inventing himself, complete with intimidating new name and persona, to a military strongman of power:

guardienne wrote:@armadeus & @snufkin

which one's strelnikov? her old boyfriend or something? my memory of the film is so vague. i remember the icy summer house. and the little apartment she keeps in this town and the communism and alec guinness being the communist brother of zhivago?

@guardienne

Strelnikov is the alter ego for Pasha Antipov - Lara's childhood friend and husband. He's adopted the persona of a military strongman who's tougher, stronger and less sentimental than the idealistic young man she grew up with and married.



The next time we see Antipov, he's a totally different dude. As the narrator tells us, "[the] bashful, laughter-prone, prissy prankster, who looked like a girl, had turned into a nervous, all-knowing, scornful hypochondriac. He was intelligent, very brave, taciturn, and sarcastic" (4.9.13). He has a great life with his wife Lara and their daughter Katenka, but for one reason or another, he just can't accept the normal life he has with them. In order to escape, he runs off to join the Russian army and eventually gets himself captured by the enemy.

When he finally gets freed, Antipov realizes that everyone back home in Russia thinks he's dead. So he uses the opportunity to assume the new identity of Strelnikov (the name comes from the Russian word strelok, which means gunner, shooter, or marksman), and he starts racking up a very impressive military record. From the moment Zhivago meets him, for example, "it [becomes] clear at once that this man represent[s] the consummate manifestation of will" (7.29.16).

Antipov is a very serious, very successful man who has been made bitter by his experiences and has turned from an innocent little boy into a hardened soldier. He's completely ruthless, and he doesn't care: "Strelnikov knew that rumor had nicknamed him Rasstrelnikov, 'the Executioner.' He took it in stride, he feared nothing" (7.30.8).

@snufkin you know that film a lot better than i do and thanks for teasing it all apart for me, much appreciated.

it's pretty striking in similarity. so is zhivago finn?

@guardienne - soldiers who become disenchanted with war and politics on both sides is a theme, so sort of. Zhivago is the main romantic lead, so that could be Finn. But Zhivago never really defects from any side as much as he sets himself apart (and that provokes trouble from the government) as somebody who cares more about humanity and life than any specific ideology.







To be honest, the central love story is pretty boring. The best performances are Rod Steiger as the out for himself/will survive in whatever circumstances Komarovsky and Tom Courtney as Pasha/Strelnikov, who reinvents himself as a merciless strongman (hmmm) in part because he dislikes who he is, is unhappy with his life, and wants to test/prove/reinvent himself into a stronger/more impressive man. There's a line about him to the effect of "Happy men don't volunteer for war."

And the love story is mostly (imo) boring, but there are two iconic shots in the movie. One is when they first cross paths on a street car and Lean cuts to the overhead wires changing gears/tracks with sparks literally as they brush past each other before meeting. I remember reading a review somewhere, maybe Roger Ebert, making fun of that shot for being so cliched. But goddamned if it isn't effective. The second iconic one is when they have to part (bad capture)

As long as I'm on a David Lean tangent, GL borrowed pretty freely from Lawrence of Arabia, including locations and blocking.

snufkin wrote:As long as I'm on a David Lean tangent, GL borrowed pretty freely from Lawrence of Arabia, including locations and blocking.

@snufkin

Someone after my own heart. LoA, what a classic!

MeadowofAshes wrote:
@snufkin

Someone after my own heart. LoA, what a classic!

@MeadowofAshes



I'm really lucky that I got to see it in the restored 70mm at the historic Paramount Theater in Austin when I was going to school there. I'd die to see it done in an IMAX version.

The comments about TFA being a re-hash of the original Star Wars movie with the Jakku scenes, likely they've never seen LoA and don't realize that it's in fact both movies borrowing from David Lean (with a healthy dose of Frank Herbert's Dune)