ARCHIVE: Discussion: Podcasts - 1

nonesuch wrote:Star Wars Talk (apparently a relatively small fry podcast) includes a discussion on Reylo, which was inspired by a listener's question. They were sent and read Death and the Maiden by Ohtze but seem to have misunderstood it, only conceiving of a Rey/Kylo romance as Twilight lite or Harlequin romance fare. They basically completely dismiss Reylo as a pipe dream and deem the ship representative of a failure to factor SW precedent into theorising. They trundle out the usual lines about this kind of romance diminishing Rey as a strong female character, and suggest it's particularly unlikely on account of the recent discourse concerning gender politics (they bring up the infamous X Men Apocalypse poster where Mystique is shown being strangled). In short, it's all stuff we've heard a million times.

Amusingly, they also say that the best shippers can hope for is Rey not lopping Kylo's head off. I can either assume they don't read spoilers or wilfully ignore the parts that don't adhere to their headcanons, since MSW have made it clear that their understanding is that Rey doesn't want to fight Kylo despite Luke's command.

http://www.talkstarwars.co.uk/podcast/talk-star-wars-episode-27-reylo

@nonesuch

Wow. They really lack of narrative sense. This is like an insult to the character of Rey. Did Luke chopped his father's head? No, he became legendary when he helped him with his redemption.

There certainly does seem to be a collective lack of imagination when it comes to the romantic possibilities between Kylo and Rey in some quarters @BastilaBey The way some people talk it would have to be 50 Shades of Rey with her falling at Kylo's feet and submitting completely to him. As you say, there are so many possibilities for a love story between them which is eventually reciprocated on both sides. I could actually see someone like Rey, who quickly gets attached to people and has spent so much time lost and alone, finding some sense of kinship with Kylo (if they were in a scenario involving an enforced period of time spent surviving together). Whether they can reach that point in Ep 8, even if they do spend time on Ahch-To getting to know each other, is debatable. But we do know that neither Rey or Kylo will remain static in their TFA level of development. There are so many ways this story could go and maybe some of our expectations will go unfulfilled, but to dismiss the potential of Reylo altogether is incredibly blinkered given what we already know.

Thank God they don't write screenplays

Well, I guess some people think that a strong female character is automatically diminished by *any* kind of romantic storyline, which is just bizarre IMO. Haven't they heard of Buffy? Also, I think what they forget is that Rey had years and years of being an independent bad*** survivor, but what she really craves all this time is family and human connection, and her story is partly about discovering all of that. And love/attraction is a huge part of the human experience.

Oh and something else at play here is what looks like a total inability to imagine a dynamic where a man and woman might be *gasp* equals, or that it might be the man who is falling at the heroine's feet instead.

what kind of story do these people expect??? where's the story in Finn and Rey falling in love? Where's the story in Rey being Luke's daughter? where's the story in Rey and Kylo remaining enemies for all eternity????
That's it. There is no story...just bad writing that doesn't fit Star Wars...that's why we're right about Rey not being a Skywalker, we were right about Rey and Finn not being romantic....and we're right about Reylo..

I'm not worried about that podcast or other similar superficial POVs that think that Reylo = Twilight in space. They're not really analyzing the story or the possibilities.  Especially if they're saying things like, the "best" Reylo supporters can hope for is Rey not lopping off Kylo's head.

That just shows that they haven't given any real thought to the importance of the main protagonist and antagonist relationship in SW (or any thought to spoilers and leaks for that matter).  And these are people who like the OT? Do they not remember the complex and evolving dynamic between Luke and Vader, or even Anakin and Obi-WN in the PT?

They seem to think they know what SW is about so they know that growth and development of the hero, compassion, love and family are important in SW. So how do they think these familiar themes will factor into the dynamic between the main protagonist (Rey) and antagonist (Kylo) in the ST? Not at all? Do they think the ST is going to change course and now have a straight cardboard adversial relationship between the protagonist and antagonist? I doubt that. Especially with Rian Johnson at the helm. I don't think anything between Rey and Kylo will be simple.

Also, a positive relationship developing between Rey and Kylo doesn't have to = "romance" per se. Even if it did, romance can mean a thousand different things. It doesn't have to = a frail girl swooning over a "bad boy." How subconsciously sexist.

I'm sure we've gone through this enough, but some of the hardcore fans 100% DO NOT know what they want (or rather, what they need. I'm sure they could go on a 10-minute rant about why they don't want Kylo redemption or Rey and Kylo forging a mutually beneficial bond, but they wouldn't be able to give you any even remotely realistic predictions because they're disregarding the two most inevitable plot-points. It's the natural progression of The Force Awakens, and it's not about romance. It never has been, and I don't think that has ever been properly communicated to "antis" (mostly because they've already made up their minds). Nothing but the movie will force them to come to terms with how wrong they were, and by that point (assuming it's done well) they'll just forget that they ever said anything.

There are probably countless examples. Fans just need to let stories be told. They need to accept that this is not their story and that the writers chose to go in this direction for a reason.

I wrote a post a few days ago about this series. The fourth arc of Hunter X Hunter introduces a monstrous and murderous humanoid insect king. Naturally fanboys expected him to be the most hardcore and unstoppable villain ever. People just wanted to see the main protagonist wreck his a** in revenge, but did that happen? HAHAHAHA NOPE. I had a feeling the writer was going to go in this direction (because there would have been NO STORY otherwise), and I was right. We got an incredibly deep exploration of human weakness, evolution and identity all wrapped up in one of the most tragic and beautiful transformational love stories I've ever seen. Fanboys were probably crying the most by the end of it.

It went through the usual motions.

Spoiler:

Those "Twilight in Space" comments make me laugh too. And obviously because a protagonist/antagonist romance has been done badly before it can NEVER EVER be done well EVER. And there is NO, ABSOLUTELY NO circumstance where the female protagonist wouldn't become a sad pathetic wimp who lets her abusive partner push her around daily. It must be tiring to have such a narrow-minded view of fiction.

And it gets even worse when it's 99% certain that at least 99% of these people wouldn't be saying one damn word if Kylo and Rey's genders were flipped. In fact, I'm pretty sure everyone would be calling the interrogation scene sexually charged under those circumstances and suddenly the "victim" card would be out the window.

@frolickingfizzgig I think I need to watch this Hunter x Hunter! But yeah, what's telling is that in all this dismissal of redemption and reylo, I've never actually heard a compelling alternate version from its critics. Like I fully accept that we could be wrong, but people just seem to shoot it down and then not offer something instead that sounds right for the optimistic fairytale genre. I would love to hear about some other ideas for the narrative, but it's all about what people don't want rather than what they do.

What's funny is that I don't even think the story many antis seem to want (Kylo gets "eviler" and Rey Skywalker hates him and eventually kills him), would even be enough to fill two whole movies, even with the Resistance and FO in the mix. Especially if the Finnrey fantasy of the Rey and Finn Force tag team were added in. The story would be too short, predictable and very similar to TFA. We'd just end up with TFA parts 2 and 3 (except with Luke in Han's place).

Kessel89 wrote:What's funny is that I don't even think the story many antis seem to want (Kylo gets "eviler" and Rey Skywalker hates him and eventually kills him), would even be enough to fill two whole movies, even with the Resistance and FO in the mix. Especially if the Finnrey fantasy of the Rey and Finn Force tag team were added in. The story would be too short, predictable and very similar to TFA. We'd just end up with TFA parts 2 and 3 (except with Luke in Han's place).

@Kessel89

Exactly! The story they seem to want is "Kylo is irredeemable evil and has never not been irredeemable evil. Rey's hatred for him will only grow while at the same time she stays a Skywalker saint of light Force goodness. She'll have a sweet, no conflict whatsoever romance with Finn and her daddy Luke will dote on her while they all kick the butt of evil Kylo Ren together until he's super evil dead. The end!"

That sounds like an absolutely boring story. The most boring possible story they could do. Which is why I know they won't do it, unless the writers suddenly forgot how to write.

The thing is, I don't necessarily think this is what antis always wanted. I think they got so super duper salty about Reylo that this is what their "ideal" story turned into. Which is...sad.

ZioRen wrote:

Kessel89 wrote:What's funny is that I don't even think the story many antis seem to want (Kylo gets "eviler" and Rey Skywalker hates him and eventually kills him), would even be enough to fill two whole movies, even with the Resistance and FO in the mix. Especially if the Finnrey fantasy of the Rey and Finn Force tag team were added in. The story would be too short, predictable and very similar to TFA. We'd just end up with TFA parts 2 and 3 (except with Luke in Han's place).

@Kessel89

Exactly! The story they seem to want is "Kylo is irredeemable evil and has never not been irredeemable evil. Rey's hatred for him will only grow while at the same time she stays a Skywalker saint of light Force goodness. She'll have a sweet, no conflict whatsoever romance with Finn and her daddy Luke will dote on her while they all kick the butt of evil Kylo Ren together until he's super evil dead. The end!"

That sounds like an absolutely boring story. The most boring possible story they could do. Which is why I know they won't do it, unless the writers suddenly forgot how to write.

The thing is, I don't necessarily think this is what antis always wanted. I think they got so super duper salty about Reylo that this is what their "ideal" story turned into. Which is...sad.

@ZioRen

Yes, boring and banal.

I've always been skeptical about a kiss in chapter VIII, now I want it SO THEY CAN STFU, HIGH FIVE IF YOU AGREE

The spoiler does not add up to what we have seen in TFA especially between ren and Rey.

As I said on other page, there were no trees around Rey when she suddenly used force powers. It was ren who awakened it in her, not the trees.

Someone who didn't pick up on that would naturally make up something completely different to that notion

You can actually pinpoint the moment in the interrogation scene where ren awakens her powers

When he pushes and the force sound makes a new noise as if it hit a wall and bounced back

Maria Antonietta wrote:I've always been skeptical about a kiss in chapter VIII, now I want it SO THEY CAN STFU, HIGH FIVE IF YOU AGREE

@Maria Antonietta

There will be a Kiss! Guaranteed... lol, Disney is not going to mess with the winning formula/recipe that GL created. In fact, you can just take the rumors about Disney & LF not being happy with Rogue One and having to reshoot 40% of the movie as a reaction to Rogue not being Star Warzy in George Lucas style enough. TFA's has made Disney true acolytes of GL's vision. It does not hurt that Walt Disney & George Lucas have a lot in common storytelling wise.

There's definitely a bit of formula there, but these series never had a full-on hero/villain romance before, so I'm still not sure about the kiss in Episode Vlll.

Maybe they'll save it for the Kiss of Life in Episode IX

Saracene wrote:There's definitely a bit of formula there, but these series never had a full-on hero/villain romance before, so I'm still not sure about the kiss in Episode Vlll.

Maybe they'll save it for the Kiss of Life in Episode IX

@Saracene

Nope, the hut is going to blow up all over Kylo trying to make his moves. Each kiss was an "interrupted kiss" that is the formula ...In my very humble opinion

Gemini wrote:The spoiler does not add up to what we have seen in TFA especially between ren and Rey.

As I said on other page, there were no trees around Rey when she suddenly used force powers. It was ren who awakened it in her, not the trees.

Someone who didn't pick up on that would naturally make up something completely different to that notion

You can actually pinpoint the moment in the interrogation scene where ren awakens her powers

When he pushes and the force sound makes a new noise as if it hit a wall and bounced back

@Gemini

He really does awaken it, although as a fan of puns, your line about "well there was wood in the Interogation scene" beats any supposed spoiler.

And hey, Carrie Fisher seems pretty convinced Rey is going to have a "Space Kiss". Also wasn't there a thing about VIII having something to do with "flirting with the Dark Side"? I did a search yesterday on VIII and I came across the interview JB did saying the romance in VIII was going to be darker. *rubs hands together*
Bring it on, Rian. Bring it on.

Krafty wrote:And hey, Carrie Fisher seems pretty convinced Rey is going to have a "Space Kiss". Also wasn't there a thing about VIII having something to do with "flirting with the Dark Side"? I did a search yesterday on VIII and I came across the interview JB did saying the romance in VIII was going to be darker. *rubs hands together*
Bring it on, Rian. Bring it on.

@Krafty

JB said that there will be romance but not in the way we expect it to go *inserts steve carrell gifs OH MY GOD IT'S HAPPENING*

Krafty wrote:And hey, Carrie Fisher seems pretty convinced Rey is going to have a "Space Kiss". Also wasn't there a thing about VIII having something to do with "flirting with the Dark Side"? I did a search yesterday on VIII and I came across the interview JB did saying the romance in VIII was going to be darker. *rubs hands together*
Bring it on, Rian. Bring it on.

@Krafty

Oh, what interview was that? Do you have the link? :-)

@SoloSideCousin I found it; here: http://www.ew.com/article/2015/10/30/carrie-fisher-daisy-ridley-slave-leia

“I’m looking forward to your space kiss,” said Fisher. “You’re going to have to have one. Every girl does.”

Berhan wrote:@SoloSideCousin I found it; here: http://www.ew.com/article/2015/10/30/carrie-fisher-daisy-ridley-slave-leia

“I’m looking forward to your space kiss,” said Fisher. “You’re going to have to have one. Every girl does.”

@Berhan

Thank you! :-)

SoloSideCousin wrote:

Berhan wrote:@SoloSideCousin I found it; here: http://www.ew.com/article/2015/10/30/carrie-fisher-daisy-ridley-slave-leia

“I’m looking forward to your space kiss,” said Fisher. “You’re going to have to have one. Every girl does.”

@Berhan

Thank you! :-)

@SoloSideCousin

Knowing what I know now about Carrie Fisher, I wouldn't doubt she is very excited about Reylo, hence why she brought this up.    

Let's also not forget she was also trying to find every Reylo blog on Instagram possible to follow.

Lord I love that woman.

She's totally trying to fix her son up with that nice girl from Jakku who doesn't put up w/any crap. Come to think of it, Rey's gonna be on Ache-to because Leia asked her to go there.