ARCHIVE: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors - 9

I'm stealing this magnificent catch by @spacebaby45678    from Kenobi thread:

Raiders of the Lost Ark island (where ark of the covenant is open):



and island of the First Jedi Temple



So Rian says that he was watching Raiders in preparation for VIII so everyone's first thought is archaeology. And fair enough, Rey's fist scene is reminiscent of some scenes from Raiders (see comparisons):


http://reylo.skyforum.net/t202p450-the-rey-kenobi-files

But what gets me is Biblical stuff. Ark was open on the island. Temple will be/is open on the island. What secrets there will be? Ark didn't contain what everyone expected (instead of 2 stone tablets with Ten Commandments it released angels of death). So Temple may have some Jedi version of 10C but they could find...Space Chicken of Death?

vaderito wrote:
@teltaru

It would make sense if explained in the crawl. If Kylo's gone rogue they can just put that in the crawl that Kylo escaped and is on route to Ahch-to. After all, Hux warned that his personal interest might clash with Snoke's and that would be 100% in character. We really don't need to see rejoining FO (well, Kylux fans do). 

if he doesn't go to Snoke than Snoke would have interest to retrieve him and I stand by my opinion that Ahch-to plot won't be resolved by just having 2 characters fly away. Blockbusters require big battle/fight ending so that could lead to Snoke showing up personally to capture everyone he can lay his hands on. I mean, if endgame is a) not to imitate ROTJ and b) have Kylo turn against Snoke than they have to show discord between them much earlier or we get another Vader/Palp resolution. 

Luke could meditate with Kylo around and it seems that he does  because one report has him flicker someone with the Force and continue to meditate. So take your pick between Rey, Naughty Nephew, Wookie. Can't imagine why he would zap Rey or Chewie (not that zapping a Wookie is a good idea). Kylo could be their prisoner and Luke is powerful so...

@vaderito

Pretty much everyone thinks Kylo is on his way to becoming Satan with Snoke's help. It'd be one hell of a surprise if it turned out he was on the loose instead... Is this what actors mean by weird? Making the audience go wtf right after "A long time ago..."? I guess we'll see. It could still turn out to be baseless speculation on Jason's part.

vaderito wrote:I'm stealing this magnificent catch by @spacebaby45678    from Kenobi thread:

Raiders of the Lost Ark island (where ark of the covenant is open):



and island of the First Jedi Temple



So Rian says that he was watching Raiders in preparation for VIII so everyone's first thought is archaeology. And fair enough, Rey's fist scene is reminiscent of some scenes from Raiders (see comparisons):


http://reylo.skyforum.net/t202p450-the-rey-kenobi-files

But what gets me is Biblical stuff. Ark was open on the island. Temple will be/is open on the island. What secrets there will be? Ark didn't contain what everyone expected (instead of 2 stone tablets with Ten Commandments it released angels of death). So Temple may have some Jedi version of 10C but they could find...Space Chicken of Death?

@vaderito

Biblical stuff could be the clue (Force church among other things)
10C crossed my mind as well. Something similar given from the Force itself to the first Jedi ?

The Space Chicken of Death - the name for my next death metal band. Thank you.

@teltaru I believe that it's based on an actual info because it's released in a podcast that isn't big with spoiler hunters. Kind of like sneaking a bit of a spoiler for fewer devoted fans because all eyes are on Now This is Podcasting. 

Also, I tend to believe spoilers from reliable sources that neither sound too outlandish nor too like ESB. Opening with Kylo crash on Ahch-to is neither outlandish (there's a crashed ship caught on camera and AD filmed in Ireland) nor ESB copy (as you say, everyone expects Kylo to become a Satan and hunt down Finn to lure Rey and Luke out of hiding). So I wouldn't say that the studio is feeding their source some crap in order to misdirect. 

We'll see. At this point no one knows anything 100% cause the movie isn't even put together yet.


@Darth_Awakened You are welcome! 

First Jedi having received 10C from the Force that TP Jedi forgot about would be absolutely thrilling. Or maybe Adam/Rey and Eve/Kylo receive it in order to rise as the new Jedi? I really hope they go crazy with that kind of stuff. Bring mysticism back into SW.

In an attempt to move a few select posts from the general Podcast thread to the Spoilers thread where they were more pertinent, I merged the entire thread Podcast thread with the spoilers thread and I do not know of a way to move it back.  My sincere apologies.

Sorry guys.  

@vaderito

What makes me wonder though is that Rian said VIII would pick up where TFA ended because he wanted to show Luke and Rey stuff unfold (which would make sense, actually). Wouldn't the KOR arrival divert the attention too much... and not only the audience's, but Rey and Luke's?

SanghaRen wrote:I agree that there's nothing to suggest Rey goes to train with Luke so I don't really expect it. However, Kylo is not exactly in good shape and at the mercy of Hux who's got his orders to bring him to Snoke. And unless Hux is playing a double game or someone comes to rescue Kylo - the Knights of Ren? - it's difficult to imagine how he's going to escape that one. I could see him escape the training once he regained some strength, but escape going back to Snoke... Who knows maybe the training finals is for Kylo to kill Rey. Or a choice between killing his mother or Rey.

@SanghaRen

DR said in an interview "I don't think I'm a Jedi". She did release that spinning saber video so some honing of skills could happen. 

Kylo's tough enough to continue running after Rey and Hux is no match for him.

@teltaru They likely won't crash close to Luke which is what spoilers from Ireland indicate. Rey and Luke do temple hopping until they run into Kylo&KoR at the site of the last temple they visited. So it takes time before they cross path. In the meantime, Luke drills her to kill Kylo. When you think about it, it makes sense they talk about it if they are aware that he's on the planet.

Ok, I'll post my question again how can he be on Ahc-to (spl?) so soon if he's so badly injured?

What a tease with the potential combination of my favorite movie from childhood (Raiders), skipping my least favorite part of ESB (anything to do with training), and a going Ronin scenario! If he manages to get himself patched up and then ditches the FO to chase after her, quite possibly he did manage to finally snag the map out of her memory when they were erm, "finding the Force together." It would kind of make sense because the supposed Dangerous Dreamboat has worried that the longer she's free to try out her powers, the more Dangerous she becomes.

vaderito wrote:It would make sense if explained in the crawl. If Kylo's gone rogue they can just put that in the crawl that Kylo escaped and is on route to Ahch-to. After all, Hux warned that his personal interest might clash with Snoke's and that would be 100% in character. We really don't need to see rejoining FO

That'd be a good enough reference back to ESB, because the opening does say that Vader is obsessed with Luke and hunting him down. Which tricks the audience into thinking it's typical bad guy versus good guy stuff or Wicked Witch of the West after Dorothy. When the eventual reveal is that it's 100% personal interests because he's realized that his kid(s) didn't die with his wife and it reignites the whole pipe dream of "ruling together" with a loved one.

vaderito wrote:
@teltaru They likely won't crash close to Luke which is what spoilers from Ireland indicate. Rey and Luke do temple hopping until they run into Kylo&KoR at the site of the last temple they visited. So it takes time before they cross path. In the meantime, Luke drills her to kill Kylo. When you think about it, it makes sense they talk about it if they are aware that he's on the planet.

@vaderito

In that case the hut-blowing can't be true, surely? Because once they leave Luke's island to go temple-hopping, I doubt they'd return to the huts again (or be able to, for that matter, if there's a dangerous storm).

It's not that any of the spoilers/leaked details sound outlandish in themselves; it's just that stitching them all together is challenging, like this.

Maria Antonietta wrote:Ok, I'll post my question again how can he be on Ahc-to (spl?) so soon if he's so badly injured?

@Maria Antonietta

I don't know, but we don't really know how much time elapsed between the fight on Starkiller base and when Kylo shows up on Ahch-to.  As someone pointed out (sorry, I forget who), C-3P0 had time to get his arm replaced and Rey and Leia probably had time to talk.  So I don't think Rey left like the very next day.  It might have been a few days or maybe even a few weeks.  So Kylo might have had time to recover in a bacta tank.  Or maybe bacta tanks have really improved and heal injuries faster since Luke was in one way back in ESB.

Darth Dingbat wrote:

In that case the hut-blowing can't be true, surely? Because once they leave Luke's island to go temple-hopping, I doubt they'd return to the huts again (or be able to, for that matter, if there's a dangerous storm).

It's not that any of the spoilers/leaked details sound outlandish in themselves; it's just that stitching them all together is challenging, like this.

@Darth Dingbat

Luke lives in a hut so he goes back home after temple hopping, no? Storm won't be forever. Besides, tough call for exploding hut to live up to epicness of this:





For juicier version click on and scroll:

http://gwendy85.tumblr.com/tagged/gwendy+art/page/3

But anyway, I do think that exploding hut will be from FO canon fire rather from the Force. Luke's Force may save all 3.

vaderito wrote:

SanghaRen wrote:I agree that there's nothing to suggest Rey goes to train with Luke so I don't really expect it. However, Kylo is not exactly in good shape and at the mercy of Hux who's got his orders to bring him to Snoke. And unless Hux is playing a double game or someone comes to rescue Kylo - the Knights of Ren? - it's difficult to imagine how he's going to escape that one. I could see him escape the training once he regained some strength, but escape going back to Snoke... Who knows maybe the training finals is for Kylo to kill Rey. Or a choice between killing his mother or Rey.

@SanghaRen

DR said in an interview "I don't think I'm a Jedi". She did release that spinning saber video so some honing of skills could happen. 

Kylo's tough enough to continue running after Rey and Hux is no match for him.

@teltaru They likely won't crash close to Luke which is what spoilers from Ireland indicate. Rey and Luke do temple hopping until they run into Kylo&KoR at the site of the last temple they visited. So it takes time before they cross path. In the meantime, Luke drills her to kill Kylo. When you think about it, it makes sense they talk about it if they are aware that he's on the planet.

@vaderito

Yeah, I could see Luke saying that Kylo and the KOR need to be killed/stopped from doing whatever they are doing on Ahch-to once he realizes they are there because whatever they're up to can't be good from Luke's POV. I assume Luke (and Rey) would sense Kylo's arrival even if it's on another island or a different part of Luke's island.

The question(s) becomes why does Rey have to do it and why doesn't she want to do it?

vaderito wrote:
DR said in an interview "I don't think I'm a Jedi". She did release that spinning saber video so some honing of skills could happen. 

I am a bit confusing about these things to be honest.
I thing I got clearly from SW movies and some other sources is that if you are force sensitive it does not mean you are automatically Jedi or Sith.
So the spinning the saber does not mean Rey is a Jedi (Luke was not a Jedi when he was dueling Vader in ESB as well)
On the other hand it was pointed out by Pablo that neither Snoke neither Kylo are Siths, they are just dark side users.

I think it is a question for @panki I do not get fully what makes a dark side user a Sith?

@Kessel89 Now that you bring up the island, how big it that island supposed to be? There are quite a few of them so I guess different temples may be on different islands and Kylo could have shipwrecked on any of them



@Darth_Awakened You are right. Luke was told he wasn't a Jedi until facing Vader. So I guess that facing another Dark Sider decides whether one becomes a Jedi or not. Or any other trial that involves resisting the Dark Side. Likewise, Anakin was ordained Darth Vader aka Sith Lord after helping Palpatine kill Mace Windu, another Jedi, and than sealed the deal by killing other Jedi including Younglings. So completing Kylo's training must mean something similar, that he has to kill someone. Killing Han got him the right to complete the training. So Rey's trial as a Jedi is likely killing Kylo.

Darth_Awakened wrote:

vaderito wrote:
DR said in an interview "I don't think I'm a Jedi". She did release that spinning saber video so some honing of skills could happen. 

I am a bit confusing about these things to be honest.
I thing I got clearly from SW movies and some other sources is that if you are force sensitive it does not mean you are automatically Jedi or Sith.
So the spinning the saber does not mean Rey is a Jedi (Luke was not a Jedi when he was dueling Vader in ESB as well)
On the other hand it was pointed out by Pablo that neither Snoke neither Kylo are Siths, they are just dark side users.

I think it is a question for @panki I do not get fully what makes a dark side user a Sith?

@Darth_Awakened

That is a good question.....the Sith are basically a dark side force sensitive order... they are just one of many force sensitive groups that use the dark side of the Force. So a Sith is a dark side user but not every dark side force user is a sith.

I'll only give the canon information or it will get confusing.....if we go by canon, there can only be two sith lords- a Master and an Apprentice... and when the apprentice has learnt everything they have to learn, they kill their master and become the next master. Normally sith keep secret apprentices but they are technically not sith. So to become a sith, you have to be only one of two members of the order...and you have to be either the Master or become the official apprentice of one (as Anakin accepted being Palpatine's apprentice).

A jedi who falls to the dark side wont automatically become sith... they become dark jedi... so Kylo definitely could be a dark jedi...we don't know what belief system Snoke follows so am not sure how to categorize him.

As for Rey, she definitely isn't a jedi as of now... she will have to train as a jedi and complete the jedi trials to become a jedi knight....Luke did complete all the trials in the OT (losing his hand, the Dagobah cave, defeating Vader, bringing his father back to the light etc), though it was a sped up version of them.

I always thought Luke's 'training' was a bit unconvincing, given that the standard Jedi practice was to start training kids at about four years old (?),then reluctantly consider them for Jedi-knightness about 20 years later. Luke did a couple of weeks, as far as I can tell, which is a bit of a crammer course.

I did find all the training stuff pretty dull, TBH, especially as whiny Luke whined non-stop, and frankly every second of screentime not featuring Harrison Ford seemed like a second wasted to my teenage self. So I'd happily skip all that in VIII and IX, unless, of course, it involves serious undress, in which case I hope that Kylo's training is extensive.

@panki
Thank you for the detailed answer.

As for Rey: We should see at first if she really wants to become a Jedi.

Speaking strictly in movie universe, both Anakin and Luke had strong deeper motivation of becoming the jedi.
In Anakin s case it was at first his innocent wish to help his mother and release her from slavery (if I remember correctly), than it was a pure ambition to prove himself.
Idealistic Luke wanted to be like an ideal image of his father.
At this point I do not see in Rey any of her personal ambition in it. Nobody exactly said to her (even Maz) you have to be a Jedi because of ...blah, blah, blah.

That leads to believe that we are indeed on the way to change traditional concept of Jedi in this trilogy. All the little things we heard so far point to that direction IMO:

panki wrote:[

@Darth_Awakened

That is a good question.....the Sith are basically a dark side force sensitive order... they are just one of many force sensitive groups that use the dark side of the Force. So a Sith is a dark side user but not every dark side force user is a sith.

I'll only give the canon information or it will get confusing.....if we go by canon, there can only be two sith lords- a Master and an Apprentice... and when the apprentice has learnt everything they have to learn, they kill their master and become the next master. Normally sith keep secret apprentices but they are technically not sith. So to become a sith, you have to be only one of two members of the order...and you have to be either the Master or become the official apprentice of one (as Anakin accepted being Palpatine's apprentice).

A jedi who falls to the dark side wont automatically become sith... they become dark jedi... so Kylo definitely could be a dark jedi...we don't know what belief system Snoke follows so am not sure how to categorize him.

As for Rey, she definitely isn't a jedi as of now... she will have to train as a jedi and complete the jedi trials to become a jedi knight....Luke did complete all the trials in the OT (losing his hand, the Dagobah cave, defeating Vader, bringing his father back to the light etc), though it was a sped up version of them.

@panki

If I'm not mistaken, didn't Pablo say that Kylo is a "fallen" Jedi (when he was saying he'd supposedly never heard of grey Jedi)? So wouldn't a Jedi who went dark become a fallen one, or cease to be a one completely, rather than become a dark Jedi?

I read on Wiki that the traditional Jedi trials consist of the following nine steps of trial: teamwork, isolation, fear, anger, betrayal, focus, instinct, forgiveness, protection. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_Trials

I hope we see at least some of these steps play out on Ahch-to with Rey (and Kylo). I can see how the scenario on Ahch-to with Luke (along with Chewie and R2) and Kylo (and the KOR) will become a trial of sorts for Rey. It will be a trial for Kylo too.

Darth_Awakened wrote:@panki
Thank you for the detailed answer.

As for Rey: We should see at first if she really wants to become a Jedi.

Speaking strictly in movie universe, both Anakin and Luke had strong deeper motivation of becoming the jedi.
In Anakin s case it was at first his innocent wish to help his mother and release her from slavery (if I remember correctly), than it was a pure ambition to prove himself.
Idealistic Luke wanted to be like an ideal image of his father.
At this point I do not see in Rey any of her personal ambition in it. Nobody exactly said to her (even Maz) you have to be a Jedi because of ...blah, blah, blah.

That leads to believe that we are indeed on the way to change traditional concept of Jedi in this trilogy. All the little things we heard so far point to that direction IMO:

@Darth_Awakened

That's a good point; we don't know if Rey wants to be a Jedi. Maz said (about herself) that she was no Jedi but she knew the force. Maybe Rey would be content just to know more about the force but not want everything that goes along with being a (traditional) Jedi.

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:@panki
Thank you for the detailed answer.

As for Rey: We should see at first if she really wants to become a Jedi.

Speaking strictly in movie universe, both Anakin and Luke had strong deeper motivation of becoming the jedi.
In Anakin s case it  was at first his innocent wish to help his mother and release her from slavery (if I remember correctly), than it was a pure ambition to prove himself.
Idealistic Luke wanted to be like an ideal image of his father.
At this point I do not see in Rey any of her personal ambition in it. Nobody exactly said to her (even Maz) you have to be a Jedi because of ...blah, blah, blah.

That leads to believe that we are indeed on the way to change traditional concept of Jedi in this trilogy. All the little things we heard so far point to that direction IMO:

@Darth_Awakened

That's a good point; we don't know if Rey wants to be a Jedi. Maz said (about herself) that she was no Jedi but she knew the force. Maybe Rey would be content just to know more about the force but not want everything that goes along with being a (traditional) Jedi.

@Darth_Awakened and @Mrs Ben Solo

I agree with both of you on this point.....I'm not even sure if Rey will become a jedi... I hope she begins something new after reconciling both the dark and the light sides of the force.... though it would be amazing if Luke or Kylo teaches her some force powers and fighting techniques while on Ahch-To like @Kessel89 mentioned.

@Kessel89 ..... I know PH used the term "fallen jedi" in his tweet but the canon term for a jedi who falls to the dark side is "Dark Jedi"... this was the term used for characters like Asajj Ventress who initially trained as regular jedi but fell to the dark side. This term was confirmed in a canon article of the SW Insider magazine in 2015. Since Ben Solo initially trained as a jedi before he became Kylo Ren, he would become a dark jedi by default.

panki wrote:

@Kessel89 ..... I know PH used the term "fallen jedi" in his tweet but the canon term for a jedi who falls to the dark side is "Dark Jedi"... this was the term used for characters like Asajj Ventress who initially trained as regular jedi but fell to the dark side. This term was confirmed in a canon article of the SW Insider magazine in 2015. Since Ben Solo initially trained as a jedi before he became Kylo Ren, he would become a dark jedi by default.

@panki

Thanks. That's really interesting. Maybe Pablo referring to Ben/Kylo as a fallen Jedi is something particular to Ben/Kylo only? Maybe he's making an intentional distinction? Or maybe he just messed up in his tweet...

Kessel89 wrote:

panki wrote:

@Kessel89 ..... I know PH used the term "fallen jedi" in his tweet but the canon term for a jedi who falls to the dark side is "Dark Jedi"... this was the term used for characters like Asajj Ventress who initially trained as regular jedi but fell to the dark side. This term was confirmed in a canon article of the SW Insider magazine in 2015. Since Ben Solo initially trained as a jedi before he became Kylo Ren, he would become a dark jedi by default.

@panki

Thanks. That's really interesting. Maybe Pablo referring to Ben/Kylo as a fallen Jedi is something particular to Ben/Kylo only? Maybe he's making an intentional distinction? Or he maybe just messed in his tweet...

@Kessel89

It is interesting because Ben presumably trained with Luke for years. If Luke was able to become a Jedi in (approx) 3 years when both of his masters died, you would have thought that Luke could train Ben to be a Jedi through X amount of years. But maybe Luke's relic hunting distracted him from his nephew's training. Yoda did say that Luke always had his mind on other things!

On another not I know this might not be related to episode 8 but back in February RJ mentioned having watched The Assassin (https://twitter.com/rianjohnson/status/695987034717032449)which came a year earlier.It most likely has nothing to do with episode 8 and he just mentioned it out if interest but some of the description of the movie kind of reminds me of Reylo with the whole ordering the assain to kill someone  she cares about because she failed to assasinate someone else (minus the cousin part ofcourse).Obviously Kylo did murder Han but him finally comleting his training could mean murdering Rey.
But anyway here's the description of the movie:

The Assassin is loosely based on the late 9th century martial arts story "Nie Yinniang" by Pei Xing, a core text in Chinese swordsmanship and wuxia fiction. 
The film is set in 8th century China during last years of the Tang Dynasty. The film centers on Nie Yinniang (played by Shu Qi), an assassin who is directed to slay corrupt government officials by her master, Jiaxin, a nun who raised her from the age of ten. When Yinniang displays mercy by failing to kill during her duties, Jiaxin punishes her with a ruthless assignment designed to test Yinniang’s resolve: she is sent to the distant province/circuit of Weibo in northern China to kill its military governor Tian Ji'an — her cousin to whom she had once been betrothed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Assassin_(2015_film)

8th century China. 10-year-old general's daughter Nie Yinniang is abducted by a nun who initiates her into the martial arts, transforming her into an exceptional assassin charged with eliminating cruel and corrupt local governors. One day, having failed in a task, she is sent back by her mistress to the land of her birth, with orders to kill the man to whom she was promised - a cousin who now leads the largest military region in North China. After 13 years of exile, the young woman must confront her parents, her memories and her long-repressed feelings. A slave to the orders of her mistress, Nie Yinniang must choose: sacrifice the man she loves or break forever with the sacred way of the righteous assassins
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3508840/

Kessel89 wrote:

panki wrote:

@Kessel89 ..... I know PH used the term "fallen jedi" in his tweet but the canon term for a jedi who falls to the dark side is "Dark Jedi"... this was the term used for characters like Asajj Ventress who initially trained as regular jedi but fell to the dark side. This term was confirmed in a canon article of the SW Insider magazine in 2015. Since Ben Solo initially trained as a jedi before he became Kylo Ren, he would become a dark jedi by default.

@panki

Thanks. That's really interesting. Maybe Pablo referring to Ben/Kylo as a fallen Jedi is something particular to Ben/Kylo only? Maybe he's making an intentional distinction? Or maybe he just messed up in his tweet...

@Kessel89

Actually I watched part of tfa with the audio description on and they called Kylo Ren a "fallen jedi" multiple times. For example, after he kills Han, the audio description says, "keeping his emotions in check, the fallen jedi lifts his dewy eyes." It might not matter too much, the difference between dark jedi and fallen jedi? It's not like the audio description is super canon-y, but still.